No elite spec quest?

[starlinvf.1358]

@"ProtoGunner.4953" said:It makes me sad to read this thread. I remember when people used to enjoy the journey to learn something new. After PoF released a lot of people were complaining that it takes too long (like 7-10 hours) to max out the new elite spec and for many it was too long. What is going on? Ever played Final Fantasy? I mean the old games. It took ages to level your character and this was the journey (apart form the story) and every level up felt rewarding. Now the casual crowd has embraced gaming and all franchises and games become just a casual fest where many aren't even willing to invest a kitten couple of hours to learn the new spec.

I oppose this development and they should add a kitten questline which takes at least 10 hours to max your new spec. I would love that.

Either memories around here are too short (which would explain the forums/reddit to huge extent), or that all the Vets are gone at this point...... or more likely avoid the forums like an overflown cesspool. Understanding the whole game is also in short supply too...... which is ironically both a symptom and a problem creating a loop.

The problem with Especs is Multi-faceted to the point where not enough people grasp whats going on whenever feed back like this pops up with gusto. At its Core is how GW2 handles its reward system. Because of how its structured, and what it results in, we don't have a smooth curve of progression that results in "worthwhile Milestones" to tide us over for the bigger goals. But the reward system isn't the root cause.... its merely the most compatible form to interface with the other game systems.

Anything combat related has to have very short ramp up, or be nearly flat in deployment, in order to get players into the system's target power band as quickly as possible. It HAS to be this way to properly support WvW and End game content, where build craft is the main gating mechanism for successful participation. This was the Folly of Especs during HOT, as the build features of nearly every Espec was tailored to add easier access to multiple things that each class needed to navigate Heart of Thorn's Difficulty spike. And for many Especs, the critical trait needed for the new Class mechanics (and sometimes the weapon) to function properly were either Master or Grandmaster traits; both of which would take a LOT of time to unlock at their original skill point cost. That is a big problem when the only thing a player has when using the barely unlocked Espec is the weapons and the class mechanic. Especs made up at least 50% of the power potential for most builds at the time; and without it fully traited, you're asking 2 Core Traits to carry the load against an environment that 3 Core Traits had difficulty dealing with. And unlike Core, the Espec progression was liner, with the utilities that have a lot of face value power being scattered along the path.

Not only were players being faced with a level of difficulty they've never seen before, they were also being denied many of the tools they were intended to use to combat against it. That progression system was poorly planned out, because not only was there nothing to really train the players into this mindset, but there were no apparent "interim solutions" to make up the build short falls while Especs were being worked on. With only 4 maps, that curve couldn't be softened via level design without making the starting section of VB being an obvious kiddy pool; and losing all its value after the players moved on. In fact, the Maps had their own leveling with Mastery tracks- but that posed less of problem due to being marco navigation puzzle, with independent pacing. Combat couldn't afford that, since the Devs needed to establish the combat difficulty upfront to spur the player on. But players got frustrated precisely because the difficulty spiked sharply, and the Especs where being pushed (in the mechanics) as being the solution to that difficulty.

Seeing all that, the Especs were not viewed as a Reward for completing HOT, but the fundamental tool needed to even participate in HOT maps. This was further amplified by the Mastery Tracks using Exp to progress; forcing the player into long down time cycles, with the intention of having them spend time doing map metas to get into the story side of the situation. In theory this is the perfect mesh for combing all of these concepts together to create a strong sense of progression..... but its Keystoned on the combat being manageable, as 90% of the Metas, the HPs, MP/Track progression, and map navigation all revolve around combat. With combat being such a major struggle for players, and a lack of tools (both educational and functional), most of the players only felt frustration with the whole thing. When Anet lowered the cost of Especs, a lot of those problems were immediately alleviated.

But it raised a different question..... what was the purpose of making the Espec a "reward" for finishing HOT, if its purpose was to make content easier in post-story game play? This same question came up during POF development, and its pretty clear they were intended to make a second attempt at the "Especs as progression" model they wanted for HOT; but backed off part way through after seeing the attitudes of the players during the content drought. And again, the Mastery system didn't suffer this problem directly, because its dynamic with Map navigation exists in a different head space for the player. And again, when it stalls to get the player acclimated or wants them to switch gears, its depending on combat to fill the spaces between highlights in story progression or MP ability unlocks.

The long and short of this: Combat and Buildcraft have maintain a high level of usability at all times. ANY forced gaps in performance to tie it to a progression system disrupts the game at such a fundamental level, that you'd have to build an entire encounter around it to address it. In an open world environment, that is nigh impossible without purposefully making discarded regions that are only good for a specified period of the progression curve. Almost every other game does this through Mob Levels, and is the reason that kind of slow skill unlock system can work. But since this game doesn't, and goes out of its way to ensure Mobs still pose a threat to even the most veteran players, you can't rely on the game mechanics to gate that interaction.

Yet despite their efforts to avoid it, the inevitable outcome of the traditional approach "accretion", is finding its way into multiple areas of the game where arbitrary "progression" is being used to reinforce interest. Legendary crafting for Gen2.5s is a major one, with 2 Exotics weapons being produced with apparent primary or alternate value beyond being a "byproduct" that has no trade value. The original Gen 2s salvaged the weapon at each step, but still created "gizmos" as byproducts..... some has some entertainment value, but most were worthless beyond sentimental collection value. This exemplifies some of the biggest problems of how both players and the Devs view the game's reward system, and its relationship to the game's mechanical aspects. And as time has gone on, more and more of this is being pushed into the direction that essentially killed WoW's social scene, and the game along with it. If this trajectory is kept, we'll eventually end up with the Ubisoft open world archtype...... and all the things that come with it. And if you think I'm an idiot for making that claim, understand that this comes from a lot of realizations in the last 2 years, due to the radical condensing and homogenization of games on a market level. And the more I look, the more lines of influence I keep finding between things. As much as I wish this was a conspiracy theory, an unintentional level of myopia is creating the same mistakes other games have made as a result of "having solved the problem years ago". Our problem in GW2 isn't unique per-say... but it does stand out more, due to how this game does a number of things different.

[YoukiNeko.6047]

@starlinvf.1358 said:

@"ProtoGunner.4953" said:It makes me sad to read this thread. I remember when people used to enjoy the journey to learn something new. After PoF released a lot of people were complaining that it takes too long (like 7-10 hours) to max out the new elite spec and for many it was too long. What is going on? Ever played Final Fantasy? I mean the old games. It took ages to level your character and

this

was the journey (apart form the story) and every level up felt rewarding. Now the casual crowd has embraced gaming and all franchises and games become just a casual fest where many aren't even willing to invest a kitten couple of hours to learn the new spec.

I oppose this development and they should add a kitten questline which takes at least 10 hours to max your new spec. I would love that.

Either memories around here are too short (which would explain the forums/reddit to huge extent), or that all the Vets are gone at this point...... or more likely avoid the forums like an overflown cesspool. Understanding the whole game is also in short supply too...... which is ironically both a symptom and a problem creating a loop.

The problem with Especs is Multi-faceted to the point where not enough people grasp whats going on whenever feed back like this pops up with gusto. At its Core is how GW2 handles its reward system. Because of how its structured, and what it results in, we don't have a smooth curve of progression that results in "worthwhile Milestones" to tide us over for the bigger goals. But the reward system isn't the root cause.... its merely the most compatible form to interface with the other game systems.

Anything combat related has to have very short ramp up, or be nearly flat in deployment, in order to get players into the system's target power band as quickly as possible. It HAS to be this way to properly support WvW and End game content, where build craft is the main gating mechanism for successful participation. This was the Folly of Especs during HOT, as the build features of nearly every Espec was tailored to add easier access to multiple things that each class needed to navigate Heart of Thorn's Difficulty spike. And for many Especs, the critical trait needed for the new Class mechanics (and sometimes the weapon) to function properly were either Master or Grandmaster traits; both of which would take a LOT of time to unlock at their original skill point cost. That is a big problem when the only thing a player has when using the barely unlocked Espec is the weapons and the class mechanic. Especs made up at least 50% of the power potential for most builds at the time; and without it fully traited, you're asking 2 Core Traits to carry the load against an environment that 3 Core Traits had difficulty dealing with. And unlike Core, the Espec progression was liner, with the utilities that have a lot of face value power being scattered along the path.

Not only were players being faced with a level of difficulty they've never seen before, they were also being denied many of the tools they were intended to use to combat against it. That progression system was poorly planned out, because not only was there nothing to really train the players into this mindset, but there were no apparent "interim solutions" to make up the build short falls while Especs were being worked on. With only 4 maps, that curve couldn't be softened via level design without making the starting section of VB being an obvious kiddy pool; and losing all its value after the players moved on. In fact, the Maps had their own leveling with Mastery tracks- but that posed less of problem due to being marco navigation puzzle, with independent pacing. Combat couldn't afford that, since the Devs needed to establish the combat difficulty upfront to spur the player on. But players got frustrated precisely because the difficulty spiked sharply, and the Especs where being pushed (in the mechanics) as being the solution to that difficulty.

Seeing all that, the Especs were not viewed as a Reward for completing HOT, but the fundamental tool needed to even participate in HOT maps. This was further amplified by the Mastery Tracks using Exp to progress; forcing the player into long down time cycles, with the intention of having them spend time doing map metas to get into the story side of the situation. In theory this is the perfect mesh for combing all of these concepts together to create a strong sense of progression..... but its Keystoned on the combat being manageable, as 90% of the Metas, the HPs, MP/Track progression, and map navigation all revolve around combat. With combat being such a major struggle for players, and a lack of tools (both educational and functional), most of the players only felt frustration with the whole thing. When Anet lowered the cost of Especs, a lot of those problems were immediately alleviated.

But it raised a different question..... what was the purpose of making the Espec a "reward" for finishing HOT, if its purpose was to make content easier in post-story game play? This same question came up during POF development, and its pretty clear they were intended to make a second attempt at the "Especs as progression" model they wanted for HOT; but backed off part way through after seeing the attitudes of the players during the content drought. And again, the Mastery system didn't suffer this problem directly, because its dynamic with Map navigation exists in a different head space for the player. And again, when it stalls to get the player acclimated or wants them to switch gears, its depending on combat to fill the spaces between highlights in story progression or MP ability unlocks.

The long and short of this: Combat and Buildcraft have maintain a high level of usability at all times. ANY forced gaps in performance to tie it to a progression system disrupts the game at such a fundamental level, that you'd have to build an entire encounter around it to address it. In an open world environment, that is nigh impossible without purposefully making discarded regions that are only good for a specified period of the progression curve. Almost every other game does this through Mob Levels, and is the reason that kind of slow skill unlock system can work. But since this game doesn't, and goes out of its way to ensure Mobs still pose a threat to even the most veteran players, you can't rely on the game mechanics to gate that interaction.

Yet despite their efforts to avoid it, the inevitable outcome of the traditional approach "accretion", is finding its way into multiple areas of the game where arbitrary "progression" is being used to reinforce interest. Legendary crafting for Gen2.5s is a major one, with 2 Exotics weapons being produced with apparent primary or alternate value beyond being a "byproduct" that has no trade value. The original Gen 2s salvaged the weapon at each step, but still created "gizmos" as byproducts..... some has some entertainment value, but most were worthless beyond sentimental collection value. This exemplifies some of the biggest problems of how both players and the Devs view the game's reward system, and its relationship to the game's mechanical aspects. And as time has gone on, more and more of this is being pushed into the direction that essentially killed WoW's social scene, and the game along with it. If this trajectory is kept, we'll eventually end up with the Ubisoft open world archtype...... and all the things that come with it. And if you think I'm an idiot for making that claim, understand that this comes from a lot of realizations in the last 2 years, due to the radical condensing and homogenization of games on a market level. And the more I look, the more lines of influence I keep finding between things. As much as I wish this was a conspiracy theory, an unintentional level of myopia is creating the same mistakes other games have made as a result of "having solved the problem years ago". Our problem in GW2 isn't unique per-say... but it does stand out more, due to how this game does a number of things different.

You didn't need elite specs for HOT, core engineer is still better than scrapper in PvE.And I don't really see how a hour long story quest chain explaining and unlocking the spec(maybe even unlocking all skills and traits once finished) is worse than an HP train?

[starlinvf.1358]

@YoukiNeko.6047 said:

@starlinvf.1358 said:

@"ProtoGunner.4953" said:It makes me sad to read this thread. I remember when people used to enjoy the journey to learn something new. After PoF released a lot of people were complaining that it takes too long (like 7-10 hours) to max out the new elite spec and for many it was too long. What is going on? Ever played Final Fantasy? I mean the old games. It took ages to level your character and

this

was the journey (apart form the story) and every level up felt rewarding. Now the casual crowd has embraced gaming and all franchises and games become just a casual fest where many aren't even willing to invest a kitten couple of hours to learn the new spec.

I oppose this development and they should add a kitten questline which takes at least 10 hours to max your new spec. I would love that.

Either memories around here are too short (which would explain the forums/reddit to huge extent), or that all the Vets are gone at this point...... or more likely avoid the forums like an overflown cesspool. Understanding the whole game is also in short supply too...... which is ironically both a symptom and a problem creating a loop.

The problem with Especs is Multi-faceted to the point where not enough people grasp whats going on whenever feed back like this pops up with gusto. At its Core is how GW2 handles its reward system. Because of how its structured, and what it results in, we don't have a smooth curve of progression that results in "worthwhile Milestones" to tide us over for the bigger goals. But the reward system isn't the root cause.... its merely the most compatible form to interface with the other game systems.

Anything combat related has to have very short ramp up, or be nearly flat in deployment, in order to get players into the system's target power band as quickly as possible. It HAS to be this way to properly support WvW and End game content, where build craft is the main gating mechanism for successful participation. This was the Folly of Especs during HOT, as the build features of nearly every Espec was tailored to add easier access to multiple things that each class needed to navigate Heart of Thorn's Difficulty spike. And for many Especs, the critical trait needed for the new Class mechanics (and sometimes the weapon) to function properly were either Master or Grandmaster traits; both of which would take a LOT of time to unlock at their original skill point cost. That is a big problem when the only thing a player has when using the barely unlocked Espec is the weapons and the class mechanic. Especs made up at least 50% of the power potential for most builds at the time; and without it fully traited, you're asking 2 Core Traits to carry the load against an environment that 3 Core Traits had difficulty dealing with. And unlike Core, the Espec progression was liner, with the utilities that have a lot of face value power being scattered along the path.

Not only were players being faced with a level of difficulty they've never seen before, they were also being denied many of the tools they were intended to use to combat against it. That progression system was poorly planned out, because not only was there nothing to really train the players into this mindset, but there were no apparent "interim solutions" to make up the build short falls while Especs were being worked on. With only 4 maps, that curve couldn't be softened via level design without making the starting section of VB being an obvious kiddy pool; and losing all its value after the players moved on. In fact, the Maps had their own leveling with Mastery tracks- but that posed less of problem due to being marco navigation puzzle, with independent pacing. Combat couldn't afford that, since the Devs needed to establish the combat difficulty upfront to spur the player on. But players got frustrated precisely because the difficulty spiked sharply, and the Especs where being pushed (in the mechanics) as being the solution to that difficulty.

Seeing all that, the Especs were not viewed as a Reward for completing HOT, but the fundamental tool needed to even participate in HOT maps. This was further amplified by the Mastery Tracks using Exp to progress; forcing the player into long down time cycles, with the intention of having them spend time doing map metas to get into the story side of the situation. In theory this is the perfect mesh for combing all of these concepts together to create a strong sense of progression..... but its Keystoned on the combat being manageable, as 90% of the Metas, the HPs, MP/Track progression, and map navigation all revolve around combat. With combat being such a major struggle for players, and a lack of tools (both educational and functional), most of the players only felt frustration with the whole thing. When Anet lowered the cost of Especs, a lot of those problems were immediately alleviated.

But it raised a different question..... what was the purpose of making the Espec a "reward" for finishing HOT, if its purpose was to make content easier in post-story game play? This same question came up during POF development, and its pretty clear they were intended to make a second attempt at the "Especs as progression" model they wanted for HOT; but backed off part way through after seeing the attitudes of the players during the content drought. And again, the Mastery system didn't suffer this problem directly, because its dynamic with Map navigation exists in a different head space for the player. And again, when it stalls to get the player acclimated or wants them to switch gears, its depending on combat to fill the spaces between highlights in story progression or MP ability unlocks.

The long and short of this: Combat and Buildcraft have maintain a high level of usability at all times. ANY forced gaps in performance to tie it to a progression system disrupts the game at such a fundamental level, that you'd have to build an entire encounter around it to address it. In an open world environment, that is nigh impossible without purposefully making discarded regions that are only good for a specified period of the progression curve. Almost every other game does this through Mob Levels, and is the reason that kind of slow skill unlock system can work. But since this game doesn't, and goes out of its way to ensure Mobs still pose a threat to even the most veteran players, you can't rely on the game mechanics to gate that interaction.

Yet despite their efforts to avoid it, the inevitable outcome of the traditional approach "accretion", is finding its way into multiple areas of the game where arbitrary "progression" is being used to reinforce interest. Legendary crafting for Gen2.5s is a major one, with 2 Exotics weapons being produced with apparent primary or alternate value beyond being a "byproduct" that has no trade value. The original Gen 2s salvaged the weapon at each step, but still created "gizmos" as byproducts..... some has some entertainment value, but most were worthless beyond sentimental collection value. This exemplifies some of the biggest problems of how both players and the Devs view the game's reward system, and its relationship to the game's mechanical aspects. And as time has gone on, more and more of this is being pushed into the direction that essentially killed WoW's social scene, and the game along with it. If this trajectory is kept, we'll eventually end up with the Ubisoft open world archtype...... and all the things that come with it. And if you think I'm an idiot for making that claim, understand that this comes from a lot of realizations in the last 2 years, due to the radical condensing and homogenization of games on a market level. And the more I look, the more lines of influence I keep finding between things. As much as I wish this was a conspiracy theory, an unintentional level of myopia is creating the same mistakes other games have made as a result of "having solved the problem years ago". Our problem in GW2 isn't unique per-say... but it does stand out more, due to how this game does a number of things different.

You didn't need elite specs for HOT, core engineer is still better than scrapper in PvE.And I don't really see how a hour long story quest chain explaining and unlocking the spec(maybe even unlocking all skills and traits once finished) is worse than an HP train?

Thats one example.... could you say the same for the other 8 without stretching. Point remains, HOT was sold on the idea of Especs, and HOT maps were designed around the idea of you having them.

[zealex.9410]

@Randulf.7614 said:The reasons appear to be multi fold;

Firstly they don't want too many gates to getting started, especially for wvwers who will have no time for any of that. It's one of the reasons hero points carried over from core/expacs to the next expansion - accessibility

Secondly, it's prob a fair amount of extra work for almost no appreciable gain. Instead they have NPC's who are scattered around PoF maps who will talk in more detail about each spec.

Such quests are cool, but I suspect the vast majority of players just want to get into the spec as quickly as possible, with minimal fuss and hurdles

WvWers will manage if they have to do a quest for their main class every 2 years. If its not timegated or annoying it will be fine.

[YoukiNeko.6047]

@starlinvf.1358 said:

@YoukiNeko.6047 said:

@starlinvf.1358 said:

@"ProtoGunner.4953" said:It makes me sad to read this thread. I remember when people used to enjoy the journey to learn something new. After PoF released a lot of people were complaining that it takes too long (like 7-10 hours) to max out the new elite spec and for many it was too long. What is going on? Ever played Final Fantasy? I mean the old games. It took ages to level your character and

this

was the journey (apart form the story) and every level up felt rewarding. Now the casual crowd has embraced gaming and all franchises and games become just a casual fest where many aren't even willing to invest a kitten couple of hours to learn the new spec.

I oppose this development and they should add a kitten questline which takes at least 10 hours to max your new spec. I would love that.

Either memories around here are too short (which would explain the forums/reddit to huge extent), or that all the Vets are gone at this point...... or more likely avoid the forums like an overflown cesspool. Understanding the whole game is also in short supply too...... which is ironically both a symptom and a problem creating a loop.

The problem with Especs is Multi-faceted to the point where not enough people grasp whats going on whenever feed back like this pops up with gusto. At its Core is how GW2 handles its reward system. Because of how its structured, and what it results in, we don't have a smooth curve of progression that results in "worthwhile Milestones" to tide us over for the bigger goals. But the reward system isn't the root cause.... its merely the most compatible form to interface with the other game systems.

Anything combat related has to have very short ramp up, or be nearly flat in deployment, in order to get players into the system's target power band as quickly as possible. It HAS to be this way to properly support WvW and End game content, where build craft is the main gating mechanism for successful participation. This was the Folly of Especs during HOT, as the build features of nearly every Espec was tailored to add easier access to multiple things that each class needed to navigate Heart of Thorn's Difficulty spike. And for many Especs, the critical trait needed for the new Class mechanics (and sometimes the weapon) to function properly were either Master or Grandmaster traits; both of which would take a LOT of time to unlock at their original skill point cost. That is a big problem when the only thing a player has when using the barely unlocked Espec is the weapons and the class mechanic. Especs made up at least 50% of the power potential for most builds at the time; and without it fully traited, you're asking 2 Core Traits to carry the load against an environment that 3 Core Traits had difficulty dealing with. And unlike Core, the Espec progression was liner, with the utilities that have a lot of face value power being scattered along the path.

Not only were players being faced with a level of difficulty they've never seen before, they were also being denied many of the tools they were intended to use to combat against it. That progression system was poorly planned out, because not only was there nothing to really train the players into this mindset, but there were no apparent "interim solutions" to make up the build short falls while Especs were being worked on. With only 4 maps, that curve couldn't be softened via level design without making the starting section of VB being an obvious kiddy pool; and losing all its value after the players moved on. In fact, the Maps had their own leveling with Mastery tracks- but that posed less of problem due to being marco navigation puzzle, with independent pacing. Combat couldn't afford that, since the Devs needed to establish the combat difficulty upfront to spur the player on. But players got frustrated precisely because the difficulty spiked sharply, and the Especs where being pushed (in the mechanics) as being the solution to that difficulty.

Seeing all that, the Especs were not viewed as a Reward for completing HOT, but the fundamental tool needed to even participate in HOT maps. This was further amplified by the Mastery Tracks using Exp to progress; forcing the player into long down time cycles, with the intention of having them spend time doing map metas to get into the story side of the situation. In theory this is the perfect mesh for combing all of these concepts together to create a strong sense of progression..... but its Keystoned on the combat being manageable, as 90% of the Metas, the HPs, MP/Track progression, and map navigation all revolve around combat. With combat being such a major struggle for players, and a lack of tools (both educational and functional), most of the players only felt frustration with the whole thing. When Anet lowered the cost of Especs, a lot of those problems were immediately alleviated.

But it raised a different question..... what was the purpose of making the Espec a "reward" for finishing HOT, if its purpose was to make content easier in post-story game play? This same question came up during POF development, and its pretty clear they were intended to make a second attempt at the "Especs as progression" model they wanted for HOT; but backed off part way through after seeing the attitudes of the players during the content drought. And again, the Mastery system didn't suffer this problem directly, because its dynamic with Map navigation exists in a different head space for the player. And again, when it stalls to get the player acclimated or wants them to switch gears, its depending on combat to fill the spaces between highlights in story progression or MP ability unlocks.

The long and short of this: Combat and Buildcraft have maintain a high level of usability at all times. ANY forced gaps in performance to tie it to a progression system disrupts the game at such a fundamental level, that you'd have to build an entire encounter around it to address it. In an open world environment, that is nigh impossible without purposefully making discarded regions that are only good for a specified period of the progression curve. Almost every other game does this through Mob Levels, and is the reason that kind of slow skill unlock system can work. But since this game doesn't, and goes out of its way to ensure Mobs still pose a threat to even the most veteran players, you can't rely on the game mechanics to gate that interaction.

Yet despite their efforts to avoid it, the inevitable outcome of the traditional approach "accretion", is finding its way into multiple areas of the game where arbitrary "progression" is being used to reinforce interest. Legendary crafting for Gen2.5s is a major one, with 2 Exotics weapons being produced with apparent primary or alternate value beyond being a "byproduct" that has no trade value. The original Gen 2s salvaged the weapon at each step, but still created "gizmos" as byproducts..... some has some entertainment value, but most were worthless beyond sentimental collection value. This exemplifies some of the biggest problems of how both players and the Devs view the game's reward system, and its relationship to the game's mechanical aspects. And as time has gone on, more and more of this is being pushed into the direction that essentially killed WoW's social scene, and the game along with it. If this trajectory is kept, we'll eventually end up with the Ubisoft open world archtype...... and all the things that come with it. And if you think I'm an idiot for making that claim, understand that this comes from a lot of realizations in the last 2 years, due to the radical condensing and homogenization of games on a market level. And the more I look, the more lines of influence I keep finding between things. As much as I wish this was a conspiracy theory, an unintentional level of myopia is creating the same mistakes other games have made as a result of "having solved the problem years ago". Our problem in GW2 isn't unique per-say... but it does stand out more, due to how this game does a number of things different.

You didn't need elite specs for HOT, core engineer is still better than scrapper in PvE.And I don't really see how a hour long story quest chain explaining and unlocking the spec(maybe even unlocking all skills and traits once finished) is worse than an HP train?

Thats one example.... could you say the same for the other 8 without stretching. Point remains, HOT was sold on the idea of Especs, and HOT maps were designed around the idea of you having them.

Well I cleared with pure warrior with gs and a rifle. (berserker gear)Minion Necro (staff) was way easier than Reaper. (berserker gear)Ele was just as easy as tempest - staff. (berserker gear)Revenant assassin/dwarf - sword/axe with hammer. (berserker gear)Ranger pure pet master with longbow. (berserker gear)

I don't remember what I used for mesmer, thief and guard. (berserker gear)

HOT is zerg map, so you don't really need the elites unless you decide to try soloing all HPs (if you do get minion necro).

Elites were needed only for raids (chrono, druid).

[reaVer.4056]

@"Amaranthe.3578" said:Anyone else thinks its weird we dont get a short quest to unlock the "ways" of our new shiny e-specs?It would help make sense of how we suddenly learn this new path and give the espec a place the world/story.

Revenant leveling was kinda underwhelming as well. No picking up of souls, no actual talking to them. Glint won't even mention you're in the hands of her allies.

[ProtoGunner.4953]

@starlinvf.1358 said:

@YoukiNeko.6047 said:

@starlinvf.1358 said:

@"ProtoGunner.4953" said:It makes me sad to read this thread. I remember when people used to enjoy the journey to learn something new. After PoF released a lot of people were complaining that it takes too long (like 7-10 hours) to max out the new elite spec and for many it was too long. What is going on? Ever played Final Fantasy? I mean the old games. It took ages to level your character and

this

was the journey (apart form the story) and every level up felt rewarding. Now the casual crowd has embraced gaming and all franchises and games become just a casual fest where many aren't even willing to invest a kitten couple of hours to learn the new spec.

I oppose this development and they should add a kitten questline which takes at least 10 hours to max your new spec. I would love that.

Either memories around here are too short (which would explain the forums/reddit to huge extent), or that all the Vets are gone at this point...... or more likely avoid the forums like an overflown cesspool. Understanding the whole game is also in short supply too...... which is ironically both a symptom and a problem creating a loop.

The problem with Especs is Multi-faceted to the point where not enough people grasp whats going on whenever feed back like this pops up with gusto. At its Core is how GW2 handles its reward system. Because of how its structured, and what it results in, we don't have a smooth curve of progression that results in "worthwhile Milestones" to tide us over for the bigger goals. But the reward system isn't the root cause.... its merely the most compatible form to interface with the other game systems.

Anything combat related has to have very short ramp up, or be nearly flat in deployment, in order to get players into the system's target power band as quickly as possible. It HAS to be this way to properly support WvW and End game content, where build craft is the main gating mechanism for successful participation. This was the Folly of Especs during HOT, as the build features of nearly every Espec was tailored to add easier access to multiple things that each class needed to navigate Heart of Thorn's Difficulty spike. And for many Especs, the critical trait needed for the new Class mechanics (and sometimes the weapon) to function properly were either Master or Grandmaster traits; both of which would take a LOT of time to unlock at their original skill point cost. That is a big problem when the only thing a player has when using the barely unlocked Espec is the weapons and the class mechanic. Especs made up at least 50% of the power potential for most builds at the time; and without it fully traited, you're asking 2 Core Traits to carry the load against an environment that 3 Core Traits had difficulty dealing with. And unlike Core, the Espec progression was liner, with the utilities that have a lot of face value power being scattered along the path.

Not only were players being faced with a level of difficulty they've never seen before, they were also being denied many of the tools they were intended to use to combat against it. That progression system was poorly planned out, because not only was there nothing to really train the players into this mindset, but there were no apparent "interim solutions" to make up the build short falls while Especs were being worked on. With only 4 maps, that curve couldn't be softened via level design without making the starting section of VB being an obvious kiddy pool; and losing all its value after the players moved on. In fact, the Maps had their own leveling with Mastery tracks- but that posed less of problem due to being marco navigation puzzle, with independent pacing. Combat couldn't afford that, since the Devs needed to establish the combat difficulty upfront to spur the player on. But players got frustrated precisely because the difficulty spiked sharply, and the Especs where being pushed (in the mechanics) as being the solution to that difficulty.

Seeing all that, the Especs were not viewed as a Reward for completing HOT, but the fundamental tool needed to even participate in HOT maps. This was further amplified by the Mastery Tracks using Exp to progress; forcing the player into long down time cycles, with the intention of having them spend time doing map metas to get into the story side of the situation. In theory this is the perfect mesh for combing all of these concepts together to create a strong sense of progression..... but its Keystoned on the combat being manageable, as 90% of the Metas, the HPs, MP/Track progression, and map navigation all revolve around combat. With combat being such a major struggle for players, and a lack of tools (both educational and functional), most of the players only felt frustration with the whole thing. When Anet lowered the cost of Especs, a lot of those problems were immediately alleviated.

But it raised a different question..... what was the purpose of making the Espec a "reward" for finishing HOT, if its purpose was to make content easier in post-story game play? This same question came up during POF development, and its pretty clear they were intended to make a second attempt at the "Especs as progression" model they wanted for HOT; but backed off part way through after seeing the attitudes of the players during the content drought. And again, the Mastery system didn't suffer this problem directly, because its dynamic with Map navigation exists in a different head space for the player. And again, when it stalls to get the player acclimated or wants them to switch gears, its depending on combat to fill the spaces between highlights in story progression or MP ability unlocks.

The long and short of this: Combat and Buildcraft have maintain a high level of usability at all times. ANY forced gaps in performance to tie it to a progression system disrupts the game at such a fundamental level, that you'd have to build an entire encounter around it to address it. In an open world environment, that is nigh impossible without purposefully making discarded regions that are only good for a specified period of the progression curve. Almost every other game does this through Mob Levels, and is the reason that kind of slow skill unlock system can work. But since this game doesn't, and goes out of its way to ensure Mobs still pose a threat to even the most veteran players, you can't rely on the game mechanics to gate that interaction.

Yet despite their efforts to avoid it, the inevitable outcome of the traditional approach "accretion", is finding its way into multiple areas of the game where arbitrary "progression" is being used to reinforce interest. Legendary crafting for Gen2.5s is a major one, with 2 Exotics weapons being produced with apparent primary or alternate value beyond being a "byproduct" that has no trade value. The original Gen 2s salvaged the weapon at each step, but still created "gizmos" as byproducts..... some has some entertainment value, but most were worthless beyond sentimental collection value. This exemplifies some of the biggest problems of how both players and the Devs view the game's reward system, and its relationship to the game's mechanical aspects. And as time has gone on, more and more of this is being pushed into the direction that essentially killed WoW's social scene, and the game along with it. If this trajectory is kept, we'll eventually end up with the Ubisoft open world archtype...... and all the things that come with it. And if you think I'm an idiot for making that claim, understand that this comes from a lot of realizations in the last 2 years, due to the radical condensing and homogenization of games on a market level. And the more I look, the more lines of influence I keep finding between things. As much as I wish this was a conspiracy theory, an unintentional level of myopia is creating the same mistakes other games have made as a result of "having solved the problem years ago". Our problem in GW2 isn't unique per-say... but it does stand out more, due to how this game does a number of things different.

You didn't need elite specs for HOT, core engineer is still better than scrapper in PvE.And I don't really see how a hour long story quest chain explaining and unlocking the spec(maybe even unlocking all skills and traits once finished) is worse than an HP train?

Thats one example.... could you say the same for the other 8 without stretching. Point remains, HOT was sold on the idea of Especs, and HOT maps were designed around the idea of you having them.

It took like 2-3 hours to max your elite spec with trains or - if you were slightly skilled - solo. I had all the elites in like 3 weeks done.

[Zedek.8932]

Funny thing, when it's about crafting as in the one thread, people are like"All good, we want obstacles like this, even though it has nothing to with the actual character, you don't want to work for it?, you bummer. Invest time, it's a life lesson. No sweet without sweat"(A sniper does not need to be a gunsmith, does he?)Suddenly it turns into"Ah, it's good to have no obstacles, people like it to get it right off the bat, WvW people and their time matter etc. It's cool not to work for it, but get instant gratification, no investment of time please, it's not life, but a video game".

You forum people sometimes get on my nerve with that switching and changing back and forth of your reasonings and general mood like the weather..

Excelsior.