Remove Silent Scope, Return Unforgiving.

[babazhook.6805]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:Rifle would become non functional. It just does not have the defensive potential of other weapons givcen the INI cost of each existing. You in essence "recreate" pistol pistol. DJ remains the signature move much like backstab is to d/x. D/X has some form of stealth available via the weaponset and Rifle does not.

Assume for a moment no stealth on dodge. P/P has headshot and blinding as defensive tools. Rifle would have DR. Why would rifle be preferred over P/P in such a case ?

High stealth access is key to the Rifle set working. We do not need another p/p with greater range.

rifle has plenty of defensive tools, such as cripple/immob, its long range, stealth, and mobility. its just that none of them matter in pvp where its player vs point.

P/P has the exact same tools. The only one it does not have is the cripple(daze/vuln is better in any case and you can even get cripple with ankle shots). We do not need another p/p. For years people complained about p/p as it had no easy access to stealth . Why more of the same? The gameplay becomes very one dimensional.

I prefer rifle because it a stealth focused set . I also play p/p and I play them very differently. I have that choice with stealth via the dodge and silent scope and I do not with this suggested change. Some suggested that silent scope be open to all weapons and I was against that for this reason. There should be differences between weapons and a wee bit more range is not enough of one.

ok well silent scope is still the worst trait in the game atm. they need to think up a better way to make rifle viable.

Well I think they just need to "tune" the amount of stealth that can be stacked via different sources. Another alternative might be to put a more viable source of stealth into the weaponset itself via the use of INI.

As to Silent scope, I know some are opposed to such but I rather LIKE a given traitline having synergy with only a specific weaponset. Ie Staff as one in DD , Sword has one in Acro and dagger , Pistol in CS and Dagger in DA. While I think stealth on dodge still workable if it were to be removed from Silent Scope, silent scope should still be Rifle-centric.

[bq pd.2148]

@Turk.5460 said:The problem here is that you believe the professions gets balanced around what it takes to win the game mode. It doesn't, as has been showed by countless previous patches. The professions are balanced around how they interact with other professions, and when one profession or build is oppressively better than almost all others - it gets knocked down a peg. Whether it's in regards to group vs group (scourge nerfs), 1vX (Spellbreaker nerfs), or 1v1 (Mirage nerfs), it will happen. And it's not up to you to decide if your overpowered build is OK or not, it's up to the community, and the community is being quite as loud with this one as they were with Scourge, Spellbreaker, and Mirage.

mirage and spellbreaker nerfs mostly came over from spvp, because they can contest a point while doing their stuff.scourge nerfs in group vs group do not contradict with what i said above as their place in the mode is within group fights.its also not up to you to declare what is going to be changed, not up to the communtiy, its up to anet.OK, lets stray off topic more I'm ok with that, as long as this thread stays near the top it will get the exposure I want it to. Tell me how you think Trickery is a waste without BQoBK? What would you use in it's stead, aside from SA? Why do you think it's stupid or crippling? I still win a majority of my fights, but I'm all ears.

no man go figure yourself mr master mind. if your choice in traits is optimal then you wouldnt have a reason to ask for changes to the build of another.And what is your idea of optimal? Optimal for you seems to be sitting in stealth, coming out for a moment to either burst a glass, or malice stack a heavy, then going back into stealth and staying there for quite some time. Sure, that's optimal low-risk, cautious, tedious gameplay. I accept that you see that as fun as a permanent playstyle, though I don't understand how. I got bored after a week, in which I obliterated everyone I came across with very little effort. I can understand that you are one of those players that thinks dying is the end of the world, I get it, I used to be that way, too, but nothing you have said so far has justified keeping something that the majority of the community has condemned.optimal is pretty clear, do you want me to link you a dictionary?dying is not the end of the world, dying for no reason is still pointless.i dont think my motivation in this game is important for the matter.the majority of the community? the majority are potatoes, therefor we would need a balance around potato performance if we go for the marjorities opinion. i know that most people that complained to me ingame still admit that they just obliberate most deadeyes they come across, therefor this doesnt seem a too big problem to me. i dont need to justify anything. you first of all need to justify why it has to be gone.my problem is that you do either not play optimal and ask the game to cater to your poor choices or you do play optimal and want nerfs to something weaker. else you would just ask for changes to what you yourself play and intent to play. if you just want unforgiving you would have commented on my suggestion to put it back where it was instead of payback, but what you mainly want is to remove a trait, not because it is useless and you want something better instead but because you dont like it. you also dont want to keep its functionallity and playstyle in a nerfed way, no you want to completly remove it, yet you ask me to justify why not and your argument as to why it has to be done is QQ and some 1 vs 1 balance bullshit that has nothing to do with actual mode balance, we still dont have a duelling mode.

[snowflake.9037]

Agreed. I used to play DE with shadow arts for stealth access, but this is just disgusting. The most effortless and cheap access to stealth in the game. With one trait you immediately get more stealth uptime than a non DE fully stealth dedicated player. No more need to run hide in shadows, blinding powder or even shadow refuge.

And then you add the free stealth on stolen items (a very weird design choice) and it all goes downhill.

Add unforgiving again, move it to grandmaster and swap it with the #3 slot that nobody uses.

[Turk.5460]

@"MUDse.7623"You accuse an entire traitline being wasted because one trait is picked over another in a different traitline? And then you can't even explain why - is it because you don't actually think that way, or is it because you know nothing of other Thief builds? Feel free to private message me if you want me to teach you why Trickery is optimal for that particular build and playstyle. Or create a new thread if you'd like to learn more about other builds.

You've entirely missed the point, gj. None of your points have made any semblance of logic and you seem to be grasping at straws here. You've deflected every question I've posed without addressing them and instead talk about how you think thief was designed for the game mode. You have no proof of what it's job is meant to be, nor do I. But you are dead wrong, the community absolutely has sway over how the game is balanced in WvW, my examples are solid - otherwise they would not have bled over into WvW as well. Why do you think those nerfs happened in both sPvP in WvW, but things like the Holosmith sPvP nerfs did not apply to WvW? Oops, there goes your entire argument.

You're playing an overpowered build, deny it as you will - denial doesn't make you right. I'm being objective in this matter as I've played the OP build extensively, but you're being subjective and making wild claims about how you know how the dev's meant the game mode to be balanced, played, or what a profession's role is. (Weren't you adamant about players not knowing the intentions of the devs in the Stealth Trap thread? Huh...how about that...) An overwhelming majority of the community agrees - many of which are fantastic players - and this is all akin to the "nerf-spellbreaker/nerf-scourge/nerf-mirage" initiatives which all resulted in those professions/builds being toned down and balanced. You're only crippling yourself by not branching out to other playstyles, since once it gets balanced, you'll be getting your butt handed to you.

You continue to repeat things you've already said as though it is going to make them true, which prompts me to simply repeat my counter-points. If you have nothing new to contribute, I thank you for your opinions and for keeping this thread active. :3

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

just give silent scope a 6s cooldown. Problem solved.

[Bazsi.2734]

@Turk.5460 said:....And how would you suggest to alleviate the obvious over performance of Stealth DE?

LoL what?

@Turk.5460 said:...I exclusively play WvW roaming...

Oh. Now I understand. I see why you'd make this suggestion.

High end PvE balance aims to make raid dps comparable on all classes, high end PvP balance aims to make every class(but possibly every spec) competetive. These gamemodes (compared to WvW) are easy to balance (please dont make me write a book about why), so you should expect a reasonably well balanced meta for each.However WvW is unbalanced by design. You're fighting each other in PvE gear, consumables are allowed, encounters range from 1v1 to 80v80... you just can't possibly make this clusterkitten balanced through and through.

My point is: in order to POSSIBLY fix a WvW problem, you would WITHOUT A DOUBT create an sPvP problem(which would be removing DE from competetive play).In high end PvP DE is already shut down more often then not, tournament winning teams just don't use them at all. You really have to be a good thief with a good overall knowledge of the game to make it into the very top if you insist on playing the pew-pew, because the build stops carrying as soon as you rise above the average casuals in rating.

If DE is overperforming(I honestly think it isn't), you'd want to tune it's damage down, which can easily be done by splitting skills to have a WvW only version.