Riptide holds back sword so much it might need nerfing

[GoQ.1048]

the heal scaling on riptide was way to strong as explained by gokil. covered to many mistakes on a way to low cd too well. and as stated originally by gokil you can not look at swords flaws if u have such a crazy cover up.

the joke u pull here is on you guys..

[Retsuko.2035]

@shinta.8906 said:the heal scaling on riptide was way to strong as explained by gokil. covered to many mistakes on a way to low cd too well. and as stated originally by gokil you can not look at swords flaws if u have such a crazy cover up.

the joke u pull here is on you guys..

Actually it would have made sense to have decreased the basic amount of healing riptide does, but keep healing power coefficient relevant for the skill. Weavers who stat healing power chooce sustain over damage. Now you have a defensive healing stat that is quite useless on a healing skill. Surely riptide is still a good skill in itself, but the heal was what kept the sword weaver build viable.

[ionix.9054]

@"shinta.8906" said:the heal scaling on riptide was way to strong as explained by gokil. covered to many mistakes on a way to low cd too well. and as stated originally by gokil you can not look at swords flaws if u have such a crazy cover up.

the joke u pull here is on you guys..

From a roaming standpoint, the "buffs" are absolute trash; they buffed skills that are easily dodgeable making this increased damage pointless 99% of the time.

All we get out of this is a nerf to the most useful survival skill in our set. Good luck trying to recover from a 10k backstab now or soaking a portion ranger zerker soulbeast longbow spam from an add. This was a huge hit to survivability (with NO outgoing damage compensation) for a sword/dag weaver, especially in a decent 1v1 or 1vx situation.

So here we go. You got what you wanted, riptide nerf. The class is once again close to trash in wvwvw (at least), and now we sit and wait. Let's see how long we wait for them to fix what you claim has been "exposed." My bet is that sword stays trash for a good long time. Good job guys. /clap

[Cryformercy.3056]

@ionix.9054 said:

@"shinta.8906" said:the heal scaling on riptide was way to strong as explained by gokil. covered to many mistakes on a way to low cd too well. and as stated originally by gokil you can not look at swords flaws if u have such a crazy cover up.

the joke u pull here is on you guys..

From a roaming standpoint, the "buffs" are absolute trash; they buffed skills that are easily dodgeable making this increased damage pointless 99% of the time.

All we get out of this is a nerf to the most useful survival skill in our set. Good luck trying to recover from a 10k backstab now or soaking a

portion

ranger zerker soulbeast longbow spam from an add. This was a huge hit to survivability (with NO outgoing damage compensation) for a sword/dag weaver, especially in a decent 1v1 or 1vx situation.

So here we go. You got what you wanted, riptide nerf. The class is once again close to trash in wvwvw (at least), and now we sit and wait. Let's see how long we wait for them to fix what you claim has been "exposed." My bet is that sword stays trash for a good long time. Good job guys. /clap

Well in PvP it's killed too. As somebody says, it's not so bad and it's still ok, you just can't facetank. But that was the whole point of the weaver it's already was Poor druid who don't much bring to table, but at least you could keep them busy till somebody comes to help you, but now it's make you to sweat to be alive, and not talking about damage output. I understand that as somebody mention here before, they are afraid putting too much damage and making us unkilable, but hello, buffed skills are trash/ never hitters. They are even not in rotation, so almost no buff. And fully attuned water skill. It's real joke. And if somebody say unravel, they should just quite this shit. It's useless skill, that only takes space.In the end they are so afraid of ele, that they could just easily remove this class. I wish there was no patch at all, I would be better with scourges but at least having good time with my ele, now I can put it on shelf. Who knows probably it's not gonna come out for 6months for sure.

[Zintrothen.1056]

Btw, we can have nice things just like warrior. Full Counter absorbs damage, dazes, does high damage, gives resistance and protection, sometimes slows and cripples, and I think there's more still. Riptide wasn't even a loaded skill like that, yet Full Counter only got a minor nerf a while ago. Riptide got a huge healing nerf. At least the rest of the skill is still good. It's a fantastic evade and it's on a low CD. But let's just remember that warriors and many other professions can have much nicer things. It takes Anet forever to fix warriors. And now it'll take even longer to fix power mesmer. But god for bid if an ele can sustain forever and yet do little to no damage, we need a nerf. Simply put, it's not fair. And it's too bad because Anet doesn't care about fair. They're so afraid of giving elementalists some real useful shit.

[Chasind.3128]

id say leave it as is, ele doesnt have much to offer as far as pvp goes as it is.

[Razor.6392]

@"Zintrothen.1056" said:It's clear that Anet doesn't want Weavers to heal as much as they do. So maybe they should change barrier not to scale with healing power, improve barrier output and strength, and remove our reliance on the water line. Then we might not heal so much because we'll spec different trait lines.

That would be a sick trait to have. "Barriers now scale with power as opposed to healing power".

Could be added to invigorating strikes or some new trait, there are many in the weaver trait line that are worthless (especially the first tier).

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

isn't sword supposed to be a defensive weapon?isn't dagger and scepter be supposed to be offensive weapons?

please do not touch Riptide.

[Jski.6180]

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:isn't sword supposed to be a defensive weapon?isn't dagger and scepter be supposed to be offensive weapons?

please do not touch Riptide.

Sword a movement wepon as well as evasion wepon dagger is a def wepon on main hand off hand it is the offensive wepon.

I think riptide fits weaver sword well but i think its barrier that dose not fit on the class. Barrier is a healing base effect and more then not a support effect not a sustate tool. Weaver is a "thf" like ele using sword and swiftness / super speed to get in and to get out as needed. Barrier can cover some dmg but on weaver it comes out to slow and way to low to be of any real use. Even having it on after dodge rolls dose not fit the effect weaver need as the weaver should of dodge the big attk and the barrier will get nothing in doing so. What happens is barrier becomes a "safety net" tool only giving up real evasion and movement tools in balancing to do so like seen with riptides current nerf (2/11/18).

For weaver to be a melee class it needs means of dealing with soft and hard cc evasion skills that give you windows of getting a way and boons like protection stab and real condi clear from the weaver line only. Barrier as is dose not fit the weaver class one bit. In a lot of ways weaver and tempest eleit spec. seemed to be mixed up in there effects. Weaver needs the anty soft cc added stab and build in protection where tempest needs means of giving out barrier for there team to cover for weaker aoe healing effects and the lack of hard def skills like aegis.

If you ask me Weaver seems to be an attempt to "fix" what the got wrong with tempest with out chasing the tempest class and with out a strong fear of being pure power creep. Sadly it fell flat comply and made weaver a non melee class and tempest a more and more out dated class.

[reikken.4961]

@Retsuko.2035 said:

Actually it would have made sense to have decreased the basic amount of healing riptide does, but keep healing power coefficient relevant for the skill. Weavers who stat healing power chooce sustain over damage. Now you have a defensive healing stat that is quite useless on a healing skill. Surely riptide is still a good skill in itself, but the heal was what kept the sword weaver build viable.

That is kinda what they did. The base was cut by a lot more than the heal power scaling was.Previously, if you took menders amulet, 62% of riptide's heal was from the healing power on your amulet.Currently, if you take menders amulet, 79.5% of riptide's heal is from the healing power on your amulet.

[dawsm.5398]

@reikken.4961 said:

@Retsuko.2035 said:

Actually it would have made sense to have decreased the basic amount of healing riptide does, but keep healing power coefficient relevant for the skill. Weavers who stat healing power chooce sustain over damage. Now you have a defensive healing stat that is quite useless on a healing skill. Surely riptide is still a good skill in itself, but the heal was what kept the sword weaver build viable.

That is kinda what they did. The base was cut by a lot more than the heal power scaling was.Previously, if you took menders amulet, 62% of riptide's heal was from the healing power on your amulet.Currently, if you take menders amulet, 79.5% of riptide's heal is from the healing power on your amulet.

I respectfully disagree, I don't think they kept healing power as a relevant stat for enhancing the Riptide skill. Yes, if you want to talk bare percentages, the base heal was reduced from it's original value by a larger percentage than Riptide's healing power coefficient. However, the healing power coefficient was only .33 to begin with, and is now nearly cut in half to a pathetic .18.

The result is that Riptide now heals for a pitiful amount, even if you are pumping points into healing power. The healing coefficient has been set so low that having healing power is a wasted stat unless you're speccing it for other healing abilities (we already know it's damn near useless for weaver's barriers). Sadly, as it is now, Riptide's healing component is close to meaningless (in every mode, not just PvP) given the raw damage sword-weavers are supposed to be soaking up in melee range of everything.

[reikken.4961]

well remember that it's 5 ticks. That 0.18 is 0.9 if you're staying in the field, like to blast it with earth 2. That's still about the same as most skills that heal. It's still a very strong skill.

[dawsm.5398]

@reikken.4961 said:well remember that it's 5 ticks. That 0.18 is 0.9 if you're staying in the field, like to blast it with earth 2. That's still about the same as most skills that heal. It's still a very strong skill.

Riptide's healing coefficient is .18, area heals from blast finishers have a healing co. of .2, leap finishers in water fields have a healing co. of .5; explain to me where the .9 is coming from again? I know there are 5 pulses from Riptide, but you're just going to get 5 x (216+.18 x HealingPower) in healing. Sorry, you've lost me with the .9 part, as 5 pulses don't really amount to a .9 healing coefficient. And, most water-attuned weapon skills with a healing component have a better coefficient. than .18; I think there is one skill that is lower (blanking on which one), but the rest are higher. Actually, I think there are 1 or 2 that have a healing coefficient as high as 1.0 and geyser on staff has a coeffcient of 2.0.

Even with 1000 healing power, which is a decent investment in a stat, the base heal portion of Riptide will be responsible for a larger amount of the healing than your stat investment; the skill itself will contribute 216 each pulse, whereas the1000 healing power will net you an additional 180 each pulse.

Now, as far as the skill still being a good one, I won't argue with that; the cool down and the evade frames still make riptide an excellent skill. I will even concede that given the relatively low cool down, the evade frames, leaving behind a water field, -AND- the original healing component...perhaps Riptide was a bit overloaded for a single skill. However, the problem is they really did -trash- the healing component, and they didn't give Weavers an even remotely realistic way to make up for it; awkwardly double attuning to use the shoddy aqua siphon doesn't even come close.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

This is pretty much the only good skill on sword, and if it was nerfed I wouldn't use Weaver at all. The thing to understand is the sword is such a failure of a weapon-it would need quite a reworking (especially to its dual attack skills) to justify hurting its healing capacity, which mainly comes from Riptide. There's also the fact that its given a bit of resurgence to HP Ele's, who have been completely replaced by Druid and Revenant, and now Chrono.

I think what really hurts sword though, is that it can't really be paired with a good offhand. Dagger and focus are both lackluster, while warhorn can't be used on Weaver. I think they would've had alot better luck with sword spec had they added a dual-wield option, and don't say that they couldn't do it because the Warrior got daggers in both hands on Spellbreaker while they didn't have any access to daggers at all before.

[reikken.4961]

@dawsm.5398 said:5 pulses don't really amount to a .9 healing coefficient.

what do you mean?

[Shadowcat.2680]

@reikken.4961 said:

@dawsm.5398 said:5 pulses don't really amount to a .9 healing coefficient.

what do you mean?

Getting a .18 heal five times does not equal having a .9 healing coefficient for the skill.

[reikken.4961]

but how does it not? the total healing done by the skill has a 0.9 coefficient

[Sahfur.5612]

We totally needed nerfing considering thief mesmer spellbreaker and firebrand balance. 100%. Even though they all do far more and with less effort.Firebrand for example has a build with 4k armor that does zerker damage and is able to tank balthazar hero point while doing direct damage aka something you can't clear like a good portion of our damage can be. But yeah, riptide needed a nerf..What myopic garbage... Stop giving the balance team stupid ideas like this.Pretty much handing matches to less skill based classes. Stop it. They can cry me a river during all that extra time they have to press buttons evade and generally do whatever else since none of them have to plan actions in advance as much as us among other considerations. I play every one of those classes and I came to weaver because I had to be more active to win. Now, after the riptide nerf, its just -boring- the amount of time it takes to fight even a slightly similarly skilled opponent due to all the class carry they have compared to us. I'm tired of people defending a nerf to a class that isn't even pvp meta while such overtuned garbage is still in the game. I can win against those classes but being a weaver sure didn't help me win at all in each case.Did they nerf mesmer sustain? Did they nerf thief mobility and indirect sustain? Was the 4k build even touched? Did spellbreaker lose the ability to rip all our boons cleanse our condi and block almost every attack then when health gets low just kite? Dun forget sw/dagger is melee so you have to be in melee range for all of this. :open_mouth:Tell me again how weaver is OP?

If I fight a spellbreaker, I have to dodge more attacks, hit with more attacks and soak up far more stuns typically in order to win while they remove all our boons and nullify most of the condition damage in the build if any is present.You have to be on bloody powerful drugs to think we don't require far more effort to win that matchup and the matchup against any of those classes without taking skill into account. Gitting gud doesn't mean you are balanced.

You could do enough damage to kill the target and barely survive stealth bursts while not having as many get out of jail free cards as other classes on weaver before... Last I counted they all have way, way more panic buttons than we had. We had one, easily predictable panic button. One. With a combo that was stupid easy to predict would occur after. I still win but watching the video after is frankly embarrassing because of the sheer carry these other builds offer compared to us. I can do a complex combo that gets negated by one get out of jail free card of many at their disposal. It goes on way longer than it should considering the way hits are being traded. It can be painfully obvious who should be winning and by what margin by watching the fight but the gameplay mechanics don't play into that. Almost every other matchup, the gameplay mechanics back up what you see.Does every build for ele have to be thief food or something? Why do I even bother talking balance anymore. I'm just tired of reading stupid suggestions and seeing them implemented later while Anets cherished few get more buffs.

[dawsm.5398]

@"reikken.4961" said:but how does it not? the total healing done by the skill has a 0.9 coefficient

No, the total healing granted by the skill is given in 5 separate healing instances, each with an individual coefficient of .18.

It's inaccurate to say the skill has a "total" coefficient of .9 for a few different reasons; not the least of which is you could die after the evade frames have ended and before you've received the final pulse. In that scenario, how would you calculate the coefficient using your logic? Would you try to figure out how many pulses you'd received?

For Riptide to truly have a healing coefficient of .9, every individual pulse would need to have a coefficient of .9 (and then you still wouldn't be guaranteed getting all of them), or the skill would have to be changed to deliver all it's healing in one burst; in which case that singular burst would need to have a coefficient of .9.

5 healing pulses with a co. of .18 ≠ 1 flat application of healing with a co. of .9 The end result can obviously be similar, but for other obvious reasons...it doesn't have to be.