Change how Marking works.

sephiroth.4217 · July 27, 2019

@steki.1478 said:
@sephiroth.4217 said:
@Voltekka.2375 said:
@sephiroth.4217 said:
@Voltekka.2375 said:
@Raiden The Beast.3016 said:
@Voltekka.2375 said:Or, OOOOOOOR, thieves and mesmers can also adapt to being marked, wait, they use their incredible mobility to move away, marked wears off, boom-gg. I mean, I will run out of supps eventually. Or they can choose not to fight near towers and sentries. Not all classes have reveal skills, not all classes are suited to fight stealth (ele, necro). It is 2019, I CANNOT believe how people defend this absurdly broken mechanic that has no disadvantages whatsoever.Also, taken from the wiki:
Stealth, also known as cloaking or invisibility, is an effect which allows the stealthed character to be invisible to enemy players and avoid being detected by hostile NPCs.
It is not a "class mechanic". It is an effect. You can blast someone else's smokefield and voila! Invisible
Shroud is a class mechanic. Mirage cloak is a class mechanic. Not stealth.

Stealth is a class mechanic from teefs which effects on all weapons first skill.

All these forum mimi from unskilled people forced anet to implement these stupid mechanics...

Stealth and dodges are the only way for teef to stay alive ... we cant stupid facetank like guard, war, ele, holo, scäppA, soulbeast....

What a lame approach from anet to make lazy people happy

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Profession_mechanic

Stealth is an effect, whether you like it or not. If stealth WERE an actual "class mechanic" of thief, mesmers-engies-rangers-runes etc wouldnt have it. Thief cant deathshroud. Much like necro cant steal.They can both stealth.

Well now that you cleared up that distraction maybe we can hear some input on the thread subject instead?Class mechanics or not it doesn't deter the OPs point.

Stealth has no downside. Literally, none. Someone pops it, NO visual tells, no indication of an incoming attack. Yay. Much counterplay. Or is it another l2p issue for me?Stealth needs to be fundamentally changed, and have SOME kind of drawback.

I don't mean to be rude but try and understand my perspective as someone who has played since the start.

First of all, the drawback of stealth is so obvious, they wouldn't be stealthed if they were attacking you.

You say stealth has no counter play but do you know what we have relied on since the beginning to counter stealth? Well as a D/D Elementalist let me tell you what I did..

I would make sure I have Fire Sigil or Air Sigil equipped.
Using the Fire Sigil I would use Lightning Whip to look for a proc, then unload AoE in that spot.
I would also make use of my Fire Auto Attack as it fires 3 lines in front of me, one stopping once connected, maybe 2 stopped which when visually connecting the end points in a strait line would give a general direction of where the thief or stealthed target was heading. (PU Mes was gross too)

That was all I needed. I had way more options on other classes besides sigil procs.

One has 240 radius (which is pointless because if enemy is in that range they'll attack you within a second anyway) and other one pierces so it tells you nothing if you hit someone.

Maybe it worked last year, but those wont help you anymore.

It does pierce now that's true but there's still on proc Sigils in regards to Core Elementalist... Plenty of options on other classes and much better too.

I wouldn't even call it a learn to play issue, I feel like it's a general lack of awareness to what you can achieve in this game and the many alternative ways to accomplish the same goals. This is part of the combat system and why it's such a great combat system, it still is even with Marked but it's a handicap nonetheless.

And on Proc Sigils still work.. just 1, super basic idea on how to counter stealth but its completely up to the player to take that initiative instead of asking for Anet to implement more handicaps on thier behalf.

UNOwen.7132 · July 27, 2019

@Voltekka.2375 said:
@sephiroth.4217 said:
@Voltekka.2375 said:
@Raiden The Beast.3016 said:
@Voltekka.2375 said:Or, OOOOOOOR, thieves and mesmers can also adapt to being marked, wait, they use their incredible mobility to move away, marked wears off, boom-gg. I mean, I will run out of supps eventually. Or they can choose not to fight near towers and sentries. Not all classes have reveal skills, not all classes are suited to fight stealth (ele, necro). It is 2019, I CANNOT believe how people defend this absurdly broken mechanic that has no disadvantages whatsoever.Also, taken from the wiki:
Stealth, also known as cloaking or invisibility, is an effect which allows the stealthed character to be invisible to enemy players and avoid being detected by hostile NPCs.
It is not a "class mechanic". It is an effect. You can blast someone else's smokefield and voila! Invisible
Shroud is a class mechanic. Mirage cloak is a class mechanic. Not stealth.

Stealth is a class mechanic from teefs which effects on all weapons first skill.

All these forum mimi from unskilled people forced anet to implement these stupid mechanics...

Stealth and dodges are the only way for teef to stay alive ... we cant stupid facetank like guard, war, ele, holo, scäppA, soulbeast....

What a lame approach from anet to make lazy people happy

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Profession_mechanic

Stealth is an effect, whether you like it or not. If stealth WERE an actual "class mechanic" of thief, mesmers-engies-rangers-runes etc wouldnt have it. Thief cant deathshroud. Much like necro cant steal.They can both stealth.

Well now that you cleared up that distraction maybe we can hear some input on the thread subject instead?Class mechanics or not it doesn't deter the OPs point.

Stealth has no downside. Literally, none. Someone pops it, NO visual tells, no indication of an incoming attack. Yay. Much counterplay. Or is it another l2p issue for me?Stealth needs to be fundamentally changed, and have SOME kind of drawback.

Well, no downside besides not being able to continue attacking while in stealth. And the fact that stealth (especially now that SA got removed), doesnt give you any defenses while locking you out of attacks. And the fact that all stealth skills have a pretty noticable tell, and show you where the stealthed guy is when he enters stealth. There are only 3 reasons to use stealth right now as a result. Either when playing rifle to use the stealth attack, in which case you dont stay in it, to run away, in which case its useless without mobility as well (and in fact, mobility and actual defenses are better for running away") or for the cheesy permastealth builds. Marked doesnt deal with any of these. It just makes using stealth in-combat as anything but rifle even more useless than it already is.

X T D.6458 · July 27, 2019

@Caedmon.6798 said:
@X T D.6458 said:
@Caedmon.6798 said:A counter to stealth is reveals,which we have on certain specs. There shouldnt be any mechanics like traps and whatnot to counter a class specific mechanic which people payed money for to play and use. I made a comparison already,would you think its fair if when being marked you would be unable to make use of invulns or blocks,mechanics that keep you alive ?
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revealed
No counter besides Mark huh.

Stealth is not a class mechanic, it is an EFFECT. And it is a poorly balanced one at that. It should never have a place in any type of competitive game mode. Also in regards to your second point, some invuln/damage reduction skills still leave you vulnerable to cc's and conditions and there are plenty of unblockable skills.

Stealth is a class mechanic as when im playing warr im unable to gain stealth myself,when i play thief i can where when im on warr the mark doesnt hurt me in the slighest bit and when im on thief it does and it can be a factor of me dying,or simply needing to bail way off for 30 seconds and stay out of that mark range. I dont even understand how you can say its not a class mechanic,a class mechanic meaning not every classs having acces to that particular mechanic like a thief doesnt have acces to a warri's endure pain. Many things are badly implemented. Doesnt take away the fact that it does shut down one aspect of a spec which is unfair since it can already be countered in normal ways,not knowing how to doesnt mean this should still be a factor.

You keep incorrectly equating Stealth as a class mechanic with the Thief Profession. Any class can enter stealth which again is an EFFECT, and that distinction is important to keep in mind. Marked and other counters to stealth are not anti-thief measures.

UNOwen.7132 · July 27, 2019

@X T D.6458 said:
@Caedmon.6798 said:
@X T D.6458 said:
@Caedmon.6798 said:A counter to stealth is reveals,which we have on certain specs. There shouldnt be any mechanics like traps and whatnot to counter a class specific mechanic which people payed money for to play and use. I made a comparison already,would you think its fair if when being marked you would be unable to make use of invulns or blocks,mechanics that keep you alive ?
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revealed
No counter besides Mark huh.

Stealth is not a class mechanic, it is an EFFECT. And it is a poorly balanced one at that. It should never have a place in any type of competitive game mode. Also in regards to your second point, some invuln/damage reduction skills still leave you vulnerable to cc's and conditions and there are plenty of unblockable skills.

Stealth is a class mechanic as when im playing warr im unable to gain stealth myself,when i play thief i can where when im on warr the mark doesnt hurt me in the slighest bit and when im on thief it does and it can be a factor of me dying,or simply needing to bail way off for 30 seconds and stay out of that mark range. I dont even understand how you can say its not a class mechanic,a class mechanic meaning not every classs having acces to that particular mechanic like a thief doesnt have acces to a warri's endure pain. Many things are badly implemented. Doesnt take away the fact that it does shut down one aspect of a spec which is unfair since it can already be countered in normal ways,not knowing how to doesnt mean this should still be a factor.

You keep incorrectly equating Stealth as a class mechanic with the Thief Profession. Any class can enter stealth which again is an EFFECT, and that distinction is important to keep in mind. Marked and other counters to stealth are not anti-thief measures.

Except, of course, they are. Lets be real here, thief is the only class that (somewhat) regularly enters stealth. Its also one of the only 2 classes that can reliably stealth long enough for marked to even work, and Scrapper, the other one, does not use that gyro in question much).

X T D.6458 · July 27, 2019

@UNOwen.7132 said:
@X T D.6458 said:
@Caedmon.6798 said:
@X T D.6458 said:
@Caedmon.6798 said:A counter to stealth is reveals,which we have on certain specs. There shouldnt be any mechanics like traps and whatnot to counter a class specific mechanic which people payed money for to play and use. I made a comparison already,would you think its fair if when being marked you would be unable to make use of invulns or blocks,mechanics that keep you alive ?
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revealed
No counter besides Mark huh.

Stealth is not a class mechanic, it is an EFFECT. And it is a poorly balanced one at that. It should never have a place in any type of competitive game mode. Also in regards to your second point, some invuln/damage reduction skills still leave you vulnerable to cc's and conditions and there are plenty of unblockable skills.

Stealth is a class mechanic as when im playing warr im unable to gain stealth myself,when i play thief i can where when im on warr the mark doesnt hurt me in the slighest bit and when im on thief it does and it can be a factor of me dying,or simply needing to bail way off for 30 seconds and stay out of that mark range. I dont even understand how you can say its not a class mechanic,a class mechanic meaning not every classs having acces to that particular mechanic like a thief doesnt have acces to a warri's endure pain. Many things are badly implemented. Doesnt take away the fact that it does shut down one aspect of a spec which is unfair since it can already be countered in normal ways,not knowing how to doesnt mean this should still be a factor.

You keep incorrectly equating Stealth as a class mechanic with the Thief Profession. Any class can enter stealth which again is an EFFECT, and that distinction is important to keep in mind. Marked and other counters to stealth are not anti-thief measures.

Except, of course, they

are

. Lets be real here, thief is the only class that (somewhat) regularly enters stealth. Its also one of the only 2 classes that can reliably stealth long enough for marked to even

work

, and Scrapper, the other one, does not use that gyro in question much).

Mesmer can spam stealth too, but that is irrelevant. It is inaccurate to equate the two. Initiative is the class mechanic for Thieves, it is exclusive to them. Stealth is not exclusive to any class, and therefore there must be counters. If Anet added counters to initiative, that would obviously be a direct nerf to Thieves. The real issue here is the imbalance of stealth and how it is shared and spammed, I think most would at least agree on that.

UNOwen.7132 · July 27, 2019

@X T D.6458 said:
@UNOwen.7132 said:
@X T D.6458 said:
@Caedmon.6798 said:
@X T D.6458 said:
@Caedmon.6798 said:A counter to stealth is reveals,which we have on certain specs. There shouldnt be any mechanics like traps and whatnot to counter a class specific mechanic which people payed money for to play and use. I made a comparison already,would you think its fair if when being marked you would be unable to make use of invulns or blocks,mechanics that keep you alive ?
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revealed
No counter besides Mark huh.

Stealth is not a class mechanic, it is an EFFECT. And it is a poorly balanced one at that. It should never have a place in any type of competitive game mode. Also in regards to your second point, some invuln/damage reduction skills still leave you vulnerable to cc's and conditions and there are plenty of unblockable skills.

Stealth is a class mechanic as when im playing warr im unable to gain stealth myself,when i play thief i can where when im on warr the mark doesnt hurt me in the slighest bit and when im on thief it does and it can be a factor of me dying,or simply needing to bail way off for 30 seconds and stay out of that mark range. I dont even understand how you can say its not a class mechanic,a class mechanic meaning not every classs having acces to that particular mechanic like a thief doesnt have acces to a warri's endure pain. Many things are badly implemented. Doesnt take away the fact that it does shut down one aspect of a spec which is unfair since it can already be countered in normal ways,not knowing how to doesnt mean this should still be a factor.

You keep incorrectly equating Stealth as a class mechanic with the Thief Profession. Any class can enter stealth which again is an EFFECT, and that distinction is important to keep in mind. Marked and other counters to stealth are not anti-thief measures.

Except, of course, they

are

. Lets be real here, thief is the only class that (somewhat) regularly enters stealth. Its also one of the only 2 classes that can reliably stealth long enough for marked to even

work

, and Scrapper, the other one, does not use that gyro in question much).

Mesmer can spam stealth too, but that is irrelevant. It is inaccurate to equate the two. Initiative is the class mechanic for Thieves, it is exclusive to them. Stealth is not exclusive to any class, and therefore there must be counters. If Anet added counters to initiative, that would obviously be a direct nerf to Thieves. The real issue here is the imbalance of stealth and how it is shared and spammed, I think most would at least agree on that.

Eh, hardly. There is more to class mechanics than just whats exclusive. In fact, I would put class mechanics as primary, and secondary. Primary are the ones only they have access to. Like Initiative, like shatters, so on and so forth. Secondary is something other classes have, but only one class specializes in and as a result is the primary and dominant user of them. Blocks for warrior, Stealth for Thieves, so on and so forth. Stealth isnt distributed evenly because tis not supposed to. And a nerf to stealth is primarily a thief nerf. If strange builds from other classes that rely on long stealth get hit ,thats just collateral. And eh, there are only 2 problems with stealth. Its too good outside of fighting (permastealth for oneshots before an enemy can react), but utterly awful when fighting (there is a reason rifle Deadeye is the only build that uses stealth attacks at all, and even that one only does because Deaths Judgement is literally the only skill that does any amount of damage).

sephiroth.4217 · July 28, 2019

@X T D.6458 said:
@Caedmon.6798 said:
@X T D.6458 said:
@Caedmon.6798 said:A counter to stealth is reveals,which we have on certain specs. There shouldnt be any mechanics like traps and whatnot to counter a class specific mechanic which people payed money for to play and use. I made a comparison already,would you think its fair if when being marked you would be unable to make use of invulns or blocks,mechanics that keep you alive ?
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revealed
No counter besides Mark huh.

Stealth is not a class mechanic, it is an EFFECT. And it is a poorly balanced one at that. It should never have a place in any type of competitive game mode. Also in regards to your second point, some invuln/damage reduction skills still leave you vulnerable to cc's and conditions and there are plenty of unblockable skills.

Stealth is a class mechanic as when im playing warr im unable to gain stealth myself,when i play thief i can where when im on warr the mark doesnt hurt me in the slighest bit and when im on thief it does and it can be a factor of me dying,or simply needing to bail way off for 30 seconds and stay out of that mark range. I dont even understand how you can say its not a class mechanic,a class mechanic meaning not every classs having acces to that particular mechanic like a thief doesnt have acces to a warri's endure pain. Many things are badly implemented. Doesnt take away the fact that it does shut down one aspect of a spec which is unfair since it can already be countered in normal ways,not knowing how to doesnt mean this should still be a factor.

You keep incorrectly equating Stealth as a class mechanic with the Thief Profession. Any class can enter stealth which again is an EFFECT, and that distinction is important to keep in mind. Marked and other counters to stealth are not anti-thief measures.

Well Thief does have traits and abilities tied into stealth.. The class was built around this "effect"... So the premise doesn't change.

Its true that any class can have stealth, just like any class can have distortion.

Jugglemonkey.8741 · July 28, 2019

I generally think that if an opponent has to resort to marking you then you've already won on some level, if you kill them after that they have absolutely no excuse for losing. That's why I build for high dodges as well as good stealth uptime, so you're not overly reliant on either for defense.

Caedmon.6798 · July 28, 2019

Well Anet apparantly doesn't agree. I got warned and suspended after i asked the first replier if he didnt understand the post being made whereafter i explained what the reasoning behind it was,which both were removed. I think im done suggesting anything. Nothing is ever being heard anyway and you cant say anything in this kindergarten without someone being offended.

HazyDaisy.4107 · July 28, 2019

Considering the anti thief marked talk didn't really gain traction until earlier this year (when WT, Sentry and Traps were re-worked), it seems they DID change the way marking was done (earlier this year) it's just that the rest of us (without stealth) had to deal with WT and Sentry marking since it's 2015 introduction while thieves apparently got a 3.5 year pass.

Is reveal fair....eh, OK maybe not for everyone that can't cancel more than 2sec's of remaining stealth they've inflicted on themselves or innocent bystanders, but here's a thought, why not look out for the sentries and towers with WT BEFORE you try to stroll past them a la stealth mode, you know by actually paying attention to the map? Marking ends, you can stealth again, congrats, youve adapted!

Kovu.7560 · July 28, 2019

@Caedmon.6798 said:Well Anet apparantly doesn't agree. I got warned and suspended after i asked the first replier if he didnt understand the post being made whereafter i explained what the reasoning behind it was,which both were removed. I think im done suggesting anything. Nothing is ever being heard anyway and you cant say anything in this kindergarten without someone being offended.

Don't feel bad. The moderation around here can be a little heavy handed and posts tend to be removed regardless of content if someone's upset by it enough to report it.

That said I can see both sides of the issue. I don't personally feel the sentry mark is that big of a deal. We know where the sentries are, its not like the marked debuff can catch us by surprise from them. Being hit by a trap or a reveal skill is much more noticeable and the reveal skills aren't all that stellar. The gyro is oohhkay I suppose and anyone packing around sic 'em didn't equip it for the preemptive reveal.

I would change the traps to only apply 1~2~ seconds of reveal (the minimap marking can hang around longer, these should be two independent effects), decrease the cast/placement times to almost instant and increase the cooldown so they can't be spammed in a small scale fight. That way everyone can use them as a tool to deal with stealth spammers but its not an especially potent tool.

I feel thieves, (and yes, regardless of whether stealth is considered a profession mechanic or not, it is a mechanic that profession relies the most heavily on,) are in a better place in the roaming scene in wvw than they currently are in pvp in part due to the open world nature of the maps (that don't as heavily require camping circles) so having static areas of the maps being minor (and very avoidable) hazard areas for them doesn't strike me as that big of a deal.

I do wish they'd remove/revert the marked debuff from capturing keeps. I miss the days when people had to search around for people hiding inside. I still don't understand the reasoning for that change. But I suppose a bit off topic.

X T D.6458 · July 28, 2019

@sephiroth.4217 said:
@X T D.6458 said:
@Caedmon.6798 said:
@X T D.6458 said:
@Caedmon.6798 said:A counter to stealth is reveals,which we have on certain specs. There shouldnt be any mechanics like traps and whatnot to counter a class specific mechanic which people payed money for to play and use. I made a comparison already,would you think its fair if when being marked you would be unable to make use of invulns or blocks,mechanics that keep you alive ?
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revealed
No counter besides Mark huh.

Stealth is not a class mechanic, it is an EFFECT. And it is a poorly balanced one at that. It should never have a place in any type of competitive game mode. Also in regards to your second point, some invuln/damage reduction skills still leave you vulnerable to cc's and conditions and there are plenty of unblockable skills.

Stealth is a class mechanic as when im playing warr im unable to gain stealth myself,when i play thief i can where when im on warr the mark doesnt hurt me in the slighest bit and when im on thief it does and it can be a factor of me dying,or simply needing to bail way off for 30 seconds and stay out of that mark range. I dont even understand how you can say its not a class mechanic,a class mechanic meaning not every classs having acces to that particular mechanic like a thief doesnt have acces to a warri's endure pain. Many things are badly implemented. Doesnt take away the fact that it does shut down one aspect of a spec which is unfair since it can already be countered in normal ways,not knowing how to doesnt mean this should still be a factor.

You keep incorrectly equating Stealth as a class mechanic with the Thief Profession. Any class can enter stealth which again is an EFFECT, and that distinction is important to keep in mind. Marked and other counters to stealth are not anti-thief measures.

Well Thief does have traits and abilities tied into stealth.. The class was built around this "effect"... So the premise doesn't change.

Its true that any class can have stealth, just like any class can have distortion.

The marked effect also affects every profession, and reveal skills are very limited in availability. I personally never liked stealth playing such a big part in thief skills and traits, or any for that matter. It was always destined to be a disaster in design and balance. All Anet did was put in a change where one effect could counter another effect.

X T D.6458 · July 28, 2019

@Kovu.7560 said:
I do wish they'd remove/revert the marked debuff from capturing keeps. I miss the days when people had to search around for people hiding inside. I still don't understand the reasoning for that change. But I suppose a bit off topic.

You can still hide mesmers inside keeps without dealing with a marked debuff if your group fails to capture it on an initial attack. It was really annoying in the past when you might literally spend hours trying to take a heavily sieged up t3 keep and then have to waste more time looking around everywhere to try and find mesmers who could just port people back in to backcap it after a few minutes if they remained undetected At least now it gives you a chance to defend the keep because that enemy group has to attack from outside.

sephiroth.4217 · July 29, 2019

@X T D.6458 said:
@sephiroth.4217 said:
@X T D.6458 said:
@Caedmon.6798 said:
@X T D.6458 said:
@Caedmon.6798 said:A counter to stealth is reveals,which we have on certain specs. There shouldnt be any mechanics like traps and whatnot to counter a class specific mechanic which people payed money for to play and use. I made a comparison already,would you think its fair if when being marked you would be unable to make use of invulns or blocks,mechanics that keep you alive ?
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revealed
No counter besides Mark huh.

Stealth is not a class mechanic, it is an EFFECT. And it is a poorly balanced one at that. It should never have a place in any type of competitive game mode. Also in regards to your second point, some invuln/damage reduction skills still leave you vulnerable to cc's and conditions and there are plenty of unblockable skills.

Stealth is a class mechanic as when im playing warr im unable to gain stealth myself,when i play thief i can where when im on warr the mark doesnt hurt me in the slighest bit and when im on thief it does and it can be a factor of me dying,or simply needing to bail way off for 30 seconds and stay out of that mark range. I dont even understand how you can say its not a class mechanic,a class mechanic meaning not every classs having acces to that particular mechanic like a thief doesnt have acces to a warri's endure pain. Many things are badly implemented. Doesnt take away the fact that it does shut down one aspect of a spec which is unfair since it can already be countered in normal ways,not knowing how to doesnt mean this should still be a factor.

You keep incorrectly equating Stealth as a class mechanic with the Thief Profession. Any class can enter stealth which again is an EFFECT, and that distinction is important to keep in mind. Marked and other counters to stealth are not anti-thief measures.

Well Thief does have traits and abilities tied into stealth.. The class was built around this "effect"... So the premise doesn't change.

Its true that any class can have stealth, just like any class can have distortion.

The marked effect also affects every profession, and reveal skills are very limited in availability. I personally never liked stealth playing such a big part in thief skills and traits, or any for that matter. It was always destined to be a disaster in design and balance. All Anet did was put in a change where one effect could counter another effect.

Yeah my DD Tempest is effected by mark, adds an icon to my status bar and thats it lol, doesn't effect my gameplay at all.

We never needed it to begin with buuuuuuut I also learnt 6 odd years ago we already had the tools to counter stealth even with simple things like on hit sigils.

You've been around for a while too I believe.. You should know how stealth was handled quite easily, pretty sure in the day you even play a kit engie.

X T D.6458 · July 29, 2019

@sephiroth.4217 said:
@X T D.6458 said:
@sephiroth.4217 said:
@X T D.6458 said:
@Caedmon.6798 said:
@X T D.6458 said:
@Caedmon.6798 said:A counter to stealth is reveals,which we have on certain specs. There shouldnt be any mechanics like traps and whatnot to counter a class specific mechanic which people payed money for to play and use. I made a comparison already,would you think its fair if when being marked you would be unable to make use of invulns or blocks,mechanics that keep you alive ?
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revealed
No counter besides Mark huh.