Change how Marking works.

[Caedmon.6798]

Can this be done in the sense that it doesnt reveal a stealthed player but only marks him on the map ? I think its a very unfair mechanic only to fight a specific spec/class which are mainly mesmers/thieves. Stealth being a primary asset for certain specs which breaks away their main aspect of staying alive,dont just look at this from a blob or gank perspective. Imagine if Mark would break peoples invulns or blocks,rage would happen. But the same applies on specs that rely on stealth. We already have ingame utilities/skills to deny stealth and reveal,now we have mounts so things changed up even more. We have 2 types of traps + every sentry and tower radars are able to apply it. Its a stupid mechanic that breaks a certain class specific element which is a viable part for them to use and stay alive as are invulns on other classes. And no, thief or mesmer is not my main class. Just let it mark you on the map without adding a broken 30 seconds reveal.

[Ni In.6578]

So you want no counter to stealth? Minimap marker is not a counter.

[Caedmon.6798]

A counter to stealth is reveals,which we have on certain specs. There shouldnt be any mechanics like traps and whatnot to counter a class specific mechanic which people payed money for to play and use. I made a comparison already,would you think its fair if when being marked you would be unable to make use of invulns or blocks,mechanics that keep you alive ?

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revealed

No counter besides Mark huh.

[Clownmug.8357]

It's not a 30 seconds reveal. It applies 5 second reveal after being in stealth for over 2 seconds.

[coro.3176]

I like marked as a counter to stealth and something that I have to be aware of when trying to escape or engage through stealth, but a lot of the implementation makes it oppressive.

The good:

• Thrown target painters and target painter traps do their jobs very well.
• Sentry range is decent. I would maybe lower it slightly, but overall, it's good. It provides some incentive for stealth classes to kill the sentries.

The bad:

• Watchtower range is insane. This often extends so far past the towers it basically locks out an entire quarter of the map.
• Getting marked in a keep after it is captured, I don't mind the dot showing up on the map, but it's frustrating that you can't stealth to get away. Most of the time the situation is that a blob of 30-50 people has just flipped the keep and they are trying to hunt down the remaining few dots in the keep. If anything, that's when you need stealth the most.

[steki.1478]

@"Caedmon.6798" said:A counter to stealth is reveals,which we have on certain specs. There shouldnt be any mechanics like traps and whatnot to counter a class specific mechanic which people payed money for to play and use. I made a comparison already,would you think its fair if when being marked you would be unable to make use of invulns or block,mechanics that keep you alive ?

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revealed

No counter besides Mark huh.

If classes actually had reliable reveal skills then maybe it could be considered a viable counter.

Not to mention that the only spec that relies on lots of stealth can remove revealed debuff.

[Caedmon.6798]

@steki.1478 said:

@"Caedmon.6798" said:A counter to stealth is reveals,which we have on certain specs. There shouldnt be any mechanics like traps and whatnot to counter a class specific mechanic which people payed money for to play and use. I made a comparison already,would you think its fair if when being marked you would be unable to make use of invulns or block,mechanics that keep you alive ?

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revealed

No counter besides Mark huh.

If classes actually had reliable reveal skills then maybe it could be considered a viable counter.

Not to mention that the only spec that relies on lots of stealth can remove revealed debuff.

There are reliable reveals ingame. I know when i run warri and landing a tether on a thief,hes dead. Mostly its also engis applying the reveals from which there are tons around. I just think its unfair to shut down a mechanic of a class thats all,i dont expect everyone to agree and i do know stealth can be incredibly annoying,i just think mark as it currently works is unfair and could need change to how it works.

[sephiroth.4217]

Maybe start advocating for Marked to randomly teleport players across the map if grouped up in large numbers.

Or advocate for what you said.. Marked wont allow invulns or attunement swapping.

Marked should really effect all classes...

But this is WvW... a place that used to be about open world pvp.Look at all the changes to WvW, its purely aimed at making it a safe space from the grueling activities of PvE where your character could actually die.

Clearly the mode we loved isn't Anets end vision.

[X T D.6458]

@"Caedmon.6798" said:A counter to stealth is reveals,which we have on certain specs. There shouldnt be any mechanics like traps and whatnot to counter a class specific mechanic which people payed money for to play and use. I made a comparison already,would you think its fair if when being marked you would be unable to make use of invulns or blocks,mechanics that keep you alive ?

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revealed

No counter besides Mark huh.

Stealth is not a class mechanic, it is an EFFECT. And it is a poorly balanced one at that. It should never have a place in any type of competitive game mode. Also in regards to your second point, some invuln/damage reduction skills still leave you vulnerable to cc's and conditions and there are plenty of unblockable skills.

[Caedmon.6798]

@X T D.6458 said:

@"Caedmon.6798" said:A counter to stealth is reveals,which we have on certain specs. There shouldnt be any mechanics like traps and whatnot to counter a class specific mechanic which people payed money for to play and use. I made a comparison already,would you think its fair if when being marked you would be unable to make use of invulns or blocks,mechanics that keep you alive ?

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revealed

No counter besides Mark huh.

Stealth is not a class mechanic, it is an EFFECT. And it is a poorly balanced one at that. It should never have a place in any type of competitive game mode. Also in regards to your second point, some invuln/damage reduction skills still leave you vulnerable to cc's and conditions and there are plenty of unblockable skills.

Stealth is a class mechanic as when im playing warr im unable to gain stealth myself,when i play thief i can where when im on warr the mark doesnt hurt me in the slighest bit and when im on thief it does and it can be a factor of me dying,or simply needing to bail way off for 30 seconds and stay out of that mark range. I dont even understand how you can say its not a class mechanic,a class mechanic meaning not every classs having acces to that particular mechanic like a thief doesnt have acces to a warri's endure pain. Many things are badly implemented. Doesnt take away the fact that it does shut down one aspect of a spec which is unfair since it can already be countered in normal ways,not knowing how to doesnt mean this should still be a factor.

[Dawdler.8521]

@Caedmon.6798 said:a class mechanic meaning not every classs having acces to that particular mechanic like a thief doesnt have acces to a warri's endure pain. Many things are badly implemented.Yeah if only thief had some kind of elite skill eqvivalent to endure pain that makes them immune to damage but also did a ton of AoE damage, that would be so badly implemented.

[Voltekka.2375]

Or, OOOOOOOR, thieves and mesmers can also adapt to being marked, wait, they use their incredible mobility to move away, marked wears off, boom-gg. I mean, I will run out of supps eventually. Or they can choose not to fight near towers and sentries. Not all classes have reveal skills, not all classes are suited to fight stealth (ele, necro). It is 2019, I CANNOT believe how people defend this absurdly broken mechanic that has no disadvantages whatsoever.Also, taken from the wiki:

Stealth, also known as cloaking or invisibility, is an effect which allows the stealthed character to be invisible to enemy players and avoid being detected by hostile NPCs.

It is not a "class mechanic". It is an effect. You can blast someone else's smokefield and voila! Invisible

Shroud is a class mechanic. Mirage cloak is a class mechanic. Not stealth.

[DemonSeed.3528]

Stealth and smoke field should probably be removed from all classes except thieves really. If they want it, they should get it from blasting a thief smoke field. It will give thieves a little more purpose out of the box.

[GutterRat.1269]

Mechanic, effect, blah blah blah.

It's part of the class' very design. https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/professions/thief/

[bq pd.2148]

i kinda got used to marked on my thief so i dont feel it beeing to oppressive anymore as i often am able to avoid either the mark or actually dangerous opponents while being marked, many people i can still kill while i am marked altho i run heavily build around stealth.that aside i still do think that marked affecting stealth wasnt a smart addition by anet. if stealth is too strong so that we need marked, then in most of my encounters i still can abuse the mechanic to its maximum as i can make sure that i will get a fight against better opponents or larger groups outside of marked areas, i still choose the encounter. however the potential effect on combat is so strong that it is alot harder to justify any profession changes based on stealth play in WvW. this means that we could potentially see more buffs to stealth play and profession specific nerfs because: 'hey, you have an undodgeable target painter'. (for example the recent portal for thieves + removal of detection pulse) now you better hope there was no deadeye around when a wall/gate opens once.now the effect on stealth aside i do think that marked should be primarily an active effect, meaning from traps and tricks. the ones from sentries should be removed when the sentry dies and either remove watchtowers or make basically all the archers or ranged guard variants on desert map act the same way as sentries if you have a 'watchtower', so that you can kill them and no longer be marked in that area of the tower. but i guess as long as anet tries to combat stealth with marked, we will have the oppressive passive markers.

[sephiroth.4217]

@Voltekka.2375 said:

@Raiden The Beast.3016 said:

@Voltekka.2375 said:Or, OOOOOOOR, thieves and mesmers can also adapt to being marked, wait, they use their incredible mobility to move away, marked wears off, boom-gg. I mean, I will run out of supps eventually. Or they can choose not to fight near towers and sentries. Not all classes have reveal skills, not all classes are suited to fight stealth (ele, necro). It is 2019, I CANNOT believe how people defend this absurdly broken mechanic that has no disadvantages whatsoever.Also, taken from the wiki:

Stealth, also known as cloaking or invisibility, is an effect which allows the stealthed character to be invisible to enemy players and avoid being detected by hostile NPCs.

It is not a "class mechanic". It is an effect. You can blast someone else's smokefield and voila! Invisible

Shroud is a class mechanic. Mirage cloak is a class mechanic. Not stealth.

Stealth is a class mechanic from teefs which effects on all weapons first skill.

All these forum mimi from unskilled people forced anet to implement these stupid mechanics...

Stealth and dodges are the only way for teef to stay alive ... we cant stupid facetank like guard, war, ele, holo, scäppA, soulbeast....

What a lame approach from anet to make lazy people happy

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Profession_mechanic

Stealth is an effect, whether you like it or not. If stealth WERE an actual "class mechanic" of thief, mesmers-engies-rangers-runes etc wouldnt have it. Thief cant deathshroud. Much like necro cant steal.They can both stealth.

Well now that you cleared up that distraction maybe we can hear some input on the thread subject instead?Class mechanics or not it doesn't deter the OPs point.

[Doug.4930]

@"Voltekka.2375" said:Or, OOOOOOOR, thieves and mesmers can also adapt to being marked, wait, they use their incredible mobility to move away, marked wears off, boom-gg.

But why would a player pick thief and be forced to do this, when they can pick some other classes like Spellbreaker/Holo/Soulbeast? I've brought this up in the past, but according to this thread that tallied this forums opinions on the best class for impromptu fights: (https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/75966/rank-all-the-classes-for-most-op-wvw-1-vs-1-impromptu-fights-mid-2019-external-poll/p1) Thief didn't come in the top 4. So yea, sure thief can aDapT, but why should they have too? According to most people, there are 4 other classes that are objectively better fighters/duelists/roamers when thief ISN'T marked. So why on earth is it acceptable to have marked be such a punishing mechanic to one class in particular when again, the class is objectively worse than four other classes.

Give me one good reason to play thief where I need to to force myself to avoid fights near towers and sentries, when I could just roll something like a holosmith, which according to this forum, is better than an unmarked thief.

If thief was sitting in the number one spot and was the king of all 1v1's I'd say people in favour of keeping marked would have a point. But this is not the case, and is the reason everybody plays holosmith and soulbeasts etc.

Thieves did aDaPt to marked in WvW. By playing another class.

[steki.1478]

@Caedmon.6798 said:

@steki.1478 said:

@Caedmon.6798 said:A counter to stealth is reveals,which we have on certain specs. There shouldnt be any mechanics like traps and whatnot to counter a class specific mechanic which people payed money for to play and use. I made a comparison already,would you think its fair if when being marked you would be unable to make use of invulns or block,mechanics that keep you alive ?

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revealed

No counter besides Mark huh.

If classes actually had reliable reveal skills then maybe it could be considered a viable counter.

Not to mention that the only spec that relies on lots of stealth can remove revealed debuff.

There are reliable reveals ingame. I know when i run warri and landing a tether on a thief,hes dead. Mostly its also engis applying the reveals from which there are tons around. I just think its unfair to shut down a mechanic of a class thats all,i dont expect everyone to agree and i do know stealth can be incredibly annoying,i just think mark as it currently works is unfair and could need change to how it works.

That's 2 classes out of 9. Ele for example doesn't have a single revealing skill and I doubt that necro does either.

[bq pd.2148]

@steki.1478 said:

@Caedmon.6798 said:

@steki.1478 said:

@Caedmon.6798 said:A counter to stealth is reveals,which we have on certain specs. There shouldnt be any mechanics like traps and whatnot to counter a class specific mechanic which people payed money for to play and use. I made a comparison already,would you think its fair if when being marked you would be unable to make use of invulns or block,mechanics that keep you alive ?

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revealed

No counter besides Mark huh.

If classes actually had reliable reveal skills then maybe it could be considered a viable counter.

Not to mention that the only spec that relies on lots of stealth can remove revealed debuff.

There are reliable reveals ingame. I know when i run warri and landing a tether on a thief,hes dead. Mostly its also engis applying the reveals from which there are tons around. I just think its unfair to shut down a mechanic of a class thats all,i dont expect everyone to agree and i do know stealth can be incredibly annoying,i just think mark as it currently works is unfair and could need change to how it works.

That's 2 classes out of 9. Ele for example doesn't have a single revealing skill and I doubt that necro does either.

core necro has a reveal in shroud, not that it does matter too much as the thief will break stealth anyway if they attack you.

[enkidu.5937]

Change how marked works? Yes pls -> apply it on every WvW player all the time-> some seconds stealth -> some seconds guaranteed visible -> some seconds stealth-> no more need for revealed skills

[Voltekka.2375]

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@Voltekka.2375 said:

@Raiden The Beast.3016 said:

@Voltekka.2375 said:Or, OOOOOOOR, thieves and mesmers can also adapt to being marked, wait, they use their incredible mobility to move away, marked wears off, boom-gg. I mean, I will run out of supps eventually. Or they can choose not to fight near towers and sentries. Not all classes have reveal skills, not all classes are suited to fight stealth (ele, necro). It is 2019, I CANNOT believe how people defend this absurdly broken mechanic that has no disadvantages whatsoever.Also, taken from the wiki:

Stealth, also known as cloaking or invisibility, is an effect which allows the stealthed character to be invisible to enemy players and avoid being detected by hostile NPCs.

It is not a "class mechanic". It is an effect. You can blast someone else's smokefield and voila! Invisible

Shroud is a class mechanic. Mirage cloak is a class mechanic. Not stealth.

Stealth is a class mechanic from teefs which effects on all weapons first skill.

All these forum mimi from unskilled people forced anet to implement these stupid mechanics...

Stealth and dodges are the only way for teef to stay alive ... we cant stupid facetank like guard, war, ele, holo, scäppA, soulbeast....

What a lame approach from anet to make lazy people happy

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Profession_mechanic

Stealth is an effect, whether you like it or not. If stealth WERE an actual "class mechanic" of thief, mesmers-engies-rangers-runes etc wouldnt have it. Thief cant deathshroud. Much like necro cant steal.They can both stealth.

Well now that you cleared up that distraction maybe we can hear some input on the thread subject instead?Class mechanics or not it doesn't deter the OPs point.

Stealth has no downside. Literally, none. Someone pops it, NO visual tells, no indication of an incoming attack. Yay. Much counterplay. Or is it another l2p issue for me?Stealth needs to be fundamentally changed, and have SOME kind of drawback.

[Cyninja.2954]

I would agree to this if reveals were as available to all classes as stealthing is.

As of right now, that is not the case.

Give every class a reliable reveal skill baseline (make it some utility so they have to spend a slot on it, similar to how condi cleanse needs to be built). Then we can talk. As is right now, two classes have a ton of access to stealth while 7 of 9 (see what I did there :) ) classes lack the ability to counter this mechanic (which in turn makes it a lot harder to punish a stealthing player).

[sephiroth.4217]

@Voltekka.2375 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@Voltekka.2375 said:

@Raiden The Beast.3016 said:

@Voltekka.2375 said:Or, OOOOOOOR, thieves and mesmers can also adapt to being marked, wait, they use their incredible mobility to move away, marked wears off, boom-gg. I mean, I will run out of supps eventually. Or they can choose not to fight near towers and sentries. Not all classes have reveal skills, not all classes are suited to fight stealth (ele, necro). It is 2019, I CANNOT believe how people defend this absurdly broken mechanic that has no disadvantages whatsoever.Also, taken from the wiki:

Stealth, also known as cloaking or invisibility, is an effect which allows the stealthed character to be invisible to enemy players and avoid being detected by hostile NPCs.

It is not a "class mechanic". It is an effect. You can blast someone else's smokefield and voila! Invisible

Shroud is a class mechanic. Mirage cloak is a class mechanic. Not stealth.

Stealth is a class mechanic from teefs which effects on all weapons first skill.

All these forum mimi from unskilled people forced anet to implement these stupid mechanics...

Stealth and dodges are the only way for teef to stay alive ... we cant stupid facetank like guard, war, ele, holo, scäppA, soulbeast....

What a lame approach from anet to make lazy people happy

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Profession_mechanic

Stealth is an effect, whether you like it or not. If stealth WERE an actual "class mechanic" of thief, mesmers-engies-rangers-runes etc wouldnt have it. Thief cant deathshroud. Much like necro cant steal.They can both stealth.

Well now that you cleared up that distraction maybe we can hear some input on the thread subject instead?Class mechanics or not it doesn't deter the OPs point.

Stealth has no downside. Literally, none. Someone pops it, NO visual tells, no indication of an incoming attack. Yay. Much counterplay. Or is it another l2p issue for me?Stealth needs to be fundamentally changed, and have SOME kind of drawback.

I don't mean to be rude but try and understand my perspective as someone who has played since the start.

First of all, the drawback of stealth is so obvious, they wouldn't be stealthed if they were attacking you.

You say stealth has no counter play but do you know what we have relied on since the beginning to counter stealth? Well as a D/D Elementalist let me tell you what I did..

• I would make sure I have Fire Sigil or Air Sigil equipped.
• Using the Fire Sigil I would use Lightning Whip to look for a proc, then unload AoE in that spot.
• I would also make use of my Fire Auto Attack as it fires 3 lines in front of me, one stopping once connected, maybe 2 stopped which when visually connecting the end points in a strait line would give a general direction of where the thief or stealthed target was heading. (PU Mes was gross too)

That was all I needed. I had way more options on other classes besides sigil procs.

[steki.1478]

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@Voltekka.2375 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@Voltekka.2375 said:

@Raiden The Beast.3016 said:

@Voltekka.2375 said:Or, OOOOOOOR, thieves and mesmers can also adapt to being marked, wait, they use their incredible mobility to move away, marked wears off, boom-gg. I mean, I will run out of supps eventually. Or they can choose not to fight near towers and sentries. Not all classes have reveal skills, not all classes are suited to fight stealth (ele, necro). It is 2019, I CANNOT believe how people defend this absurdly broken mechanic that has no disadvantages whatsoever.Also, taken from the wiki:

Stealth, also known as cloaking or invisibility, is an effect which allows the stealthed character to be invisible to enemy players and avoid being detected by hostile NPCs.

It is not a "class mechanic". It is an effect. You can blast someone else's smokefield and voila! Invisible

Shroud is a class mechanic. Mirage cloak is a class mechanic. Not stealth.

Stealth is a class mechanic from teefs which effects on all weapons first skill.

All these forum mimi from unskilled people forced anet to implement these stupid mechanics...

Stealth and dodges are the only way for teef to stay alive ... we cant stupid facetank like guard, war, ele, holo, scäppA, soulbeast....

What a lame approach from anet to make lazy people happy

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Profession_mechanic

Stealth is an effect, whether you like it or not. If stealth WERE an actual "class mechanic" of thief, mesmers-engies-rangers-runes etc wouldnt have it. Thief cant deathshroud. Much like necro cant steal.They can both stealth.

Well now that you cleared up that distraction maybe we can hear some input on the thread subject instead?Class mechanics or not it doesn't deter the OPs point.

Stealth has no downside. Literally, none. Someone pops it, NO visual tells, no indication of an incoming attack. Yay. Much counterplay. Or is it another l2p issue for me?Stealth needs to be fundamentally changed, and have SOME kind of drawback.

I don't mean to be rude but try and understand my perspective as someone who has played since the start.

First of all, the drawback of stealth is so obvious, they wouldn't be stealthed if they were attacking you.

You say stealth has no counter play but do you know what we have relied on since the beginning to counter stealth? Well as a D/D Elementalist let me tell you what I did..

• I would make sure I have Fire Sigil or Air Sigil equipped.
• Using the Fire Sigil I would use Lightning Whip to look for a proc, then unload AoE in that spot.
• I would also make use of my Fire Auto Attack as it fires 3 lines in front of me, one stopping once connected, maybe 2 stopped which when visually connecting the end points in a strait line would give a general direction of where the thief or stealthed target was heading. (PU Mes was gross too)

That was all I needed. I had way more options on other classes besides sigil procs.

One has 240 radius (which is pointless because if enemy is in that range they'll attack you within a second anyway) and other one pierces so it tells you nothing if you hit someone.

Maybe it worked last year, but those wont help you anymore.

[bq pd.2148]

and again a thread about marked being a bad counter for stealth devolves into 'stealth is OP; - but,..'. anyway without marked it could be much worse for us thieves so keep defending it guys, you are awesome!