Range + aoe + daze + poison + unblockable + spammable

[Shao.7236]

The old Chocking Gas was still more balanced altogether, there's no reason to give the shortbow that ALREADY had very strong utility even better ones.

[Eugchriss.2046]

@Airdive.2613 said:

@"Eugchriss.2046" said:

You are contradicting yourself. You need to engage fight some who to start storing energy. Yet you say "don t engage on sight". Unless your opponent lets you engage and run away without attacking you, this is unrealistically possible.

1. You don't necessarily have to engage said thief, it could be any target.

2. You can hit once from range, then wait for your energy generation.

3. And the thief needs to be far enough so he can't attack you, but close enough so you can engage him without losing all the energy you gathered by being "off fight".2."From range"...why not, but then you will have to pray that your opponent gladly waits with you for energy generation.How niche those 2 situations are to be taken into account?

[Airdive.2613]

@Eugchriss.2046 said:How niche those 2 situations are to be taken into account?

About as niche as thieves winning just by spamming choking gas over and over again, which is sorta the point I'm trying to illustrate.Of course it gets more complicated if we compare entire skill sets like thief's initiative pool/generation enhancements and revenant's core F2, legend swap, the access to stability and resistance etc., but in a lot of situations a thief walking up straight to you at full initiative just to spam one skill is as good as dead.

[PLS.4095]

@Eugchriss.2046 said:

@PLS.4095 said:

@Eugchriss.2046 said:

@PLS.4095 said:So use it 2 times and u can"t use any offensive skill after, is this spam ?At least you can use it twice in a row. You can t even use call for anguish twice. And you still have utilities when you spam it , unlike rev.

Compare to Rev ? Just need to swap legend and here we go for the spam.If you swap legend you can't spam anything since it s not the same legend and every weapon's skills have cd so idk what you re talking about...but with thief, use roll for initiative and here we go for the spam.Nice try, tho.

Swap legend = new 50% energy6+6 = 12 , thief max ini = 15

Use ur brain plz.You do know that call for anguish is not a weapon skill but instead is locked to mallyx, right?If so, Use ur brain plz.

I never said that, because you want spam utility too ?Go buy a brain, and try to up silver first.

[Eugchriss.2046]

@Airdive.2613 said:

@Eugchriss.2046 said:How niche those 2 situations are to be taken into account?

About as niche as thieves winning just by spamming choking gas over and over again, which is sorta the point I'm trying to illustrate.It's not that niche for thieves. Like really not. Not at all. Again, I'm talking about team fight scenario, not 1v1 ones. The next time you will play thief if you end up in a team fight, spam sb #4 and you will see with your own eyes how effective it is. Sure it does close to 0 damage but the aoe daze + poison is op asf. Just try it.

[Eugchriss.2046]

@PLS.4095 said:

@"Eugchris****s.2046" said:

@PLS.4095 said:

@Eugchriss.2046 said:

@PLS.4095 said:So use it 2 times and u can"t use any offensive skill after, is this spam ?At least you can use it twice in a row. You can t even use call for anguish twice. And you still have utilities when you spam it , unlike rev.

Compare to Rev ? Just need to swap legend and here we go for the spam.If you swap legend you can't spam anything since it s not the same legend and every weapon's skills have cd so idk what you re talking about...but with thief, use roll for initiative and here we go for the spam.Nice try, tho.

Swap legend = new 50% energy6+6 = 12 , thief max ini = 15

Use ur brain plz.You do know that call for anguish is not a weapon skill but instead is locked to mallyx, right?If so, Use ur brain plz.

I never said that, because you want spam utility too ?Go buy a brain, and try to up silver first.

So what exactely did you say? Because this is exactely why this kind of communication:

@PLS.4095 said:

@Eugchriss.2046 said:

@PLS.4095 said:So use it 2 times and u can"t use any offensive skill after, is this spam ?At least you can use it twice in a row. You can t even use call for anguish twice. And you still have utilities when you spam it , unlike rev.

Compare to Rev ? Just need to swap legend and here we go for the spam.If you swap legend you can't spam anything since it s not the same legend and every weapon's skills have cd so idk what you re talking about...but with thief, use roll for initiative and here we go for the spam.Nice try, tho.

Swap legend = new 50% energy6+6 = 12 , thief max ini = 15is not advised.

MAKE SENTENCES

.So can you please explain in simple English what you were trying to say so that my 2 brain cells could understand?(BTW, there is so much kindness and goodwill in your posts that it's real pleasure to discuss with you. Thank you for that. I really appreciate it.)

[UNOwen.7132]

@Eugchriss.2046 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Eugchriss.2046 said:aka Chocking gas.And before Thief mains: "yeah but it cost 6 ini out of 15 ". This represents 40%, so they re is 60% left for 3 other skills (including chocking gas again).Now, let's compare call for anguish: mid-range + pull + chill (+ torment if traited). 35e out of 50 represents 70% and only leaves 30% for 8 other skills. (including heal just in case...)The combination of aoe + unblockable and daze + unblockable should not exist because it promotes lazy gameplay, even more when it can be spammed and used from range.Dear Anet, there is something to be looked at here.

Nevermind the fact that the thief wont have access to any other skills if using choking gas, while the Rev still has their entire arsenal to go off of.You still have utilities, like daggerstorm, shadowstep

One elite skill with a long cooldown, and a utility skill that does absolutely no damage. Meanwhile the Revenant can keep fighting with all his other skills. Not much of a comaprision.

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Eugchriss.2046 said:aka Chocking gas.And before Thief mains: "yeah but it cost 6 ini out of 15 ". This represents 40%, so they re is 60% left for 3 other skills (including chocking gas again).Now, let's compare call for anguish: mid-range + pull + chill (+ torment if traited). 35e out of 50 represents 70% and only leaves 30% for 8 other skills. (including heal just in case...)The combination of aoe + unblockable and daze + unblockable should not exist because it promotes lazy gameplay, even more when it can be spammed and used from range.Dear Anet, there is something to be looked at here.

nevermind the fact that Torment also hits harder.I don t know where you got this one from but I have made a test with the wiki formula. Here is the result:

https://imgur.com/a/XUb7g3W

Of course, you "forgot" to include the scaling off of condition damage. Its just a coencidence that Torments scaling when moving is 50% higher than poisoned, Im sure. But yeah, just slap 100 damage onto torments moving damage and about 60 to poisoned, and you get the actual damage numbers. Course, Torment hits way harder at that point.

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Eugchriss.2046 said:aka Chocking gas.And before Thief mains: "yeah but it cost 6 ini out of 15 ". This represents 40%, so they re is 60% left for 3 other skills (including chocking gas again).Now, let's compare call for anguish: mid-range + pull + chill (+ torment if traited). 35e out of 50 represents 70% and only leaves 30% for 8 other skills. (including heal just in case...)The combination of aoe + unblockable and daze + unblockable should not exist because it promotes lazy gameplay, even more when it can be spammed and used from range.Dear Anet, there is something to be looked at here.

Why do you think Condi Rev is a top tier build, while chokebow is not even good enough to be a meme build right now?And finally, I am not talking about a build, I am talking about a specific skill.

Which is stupid. Skills are not equal accross classes.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Eugchriss.2046 said:

@Airdive.2613 said:

@Eugchriss.2046 said:How niche those 2 situations are to be taken into account?

About as niche as thieves winning just by spamming choking gas over and over again, which is sorta the point I'm trying to illustrate.It's not that niche for thieves. Like really not. Not at all. Again, I'm talking about team fight scenario, not 1v1 ones. The next time you will play thief if you end up in a team fight, spam sb #4 and you will see with your own eyes how effective it is. Sure it does close to 0 damage but the aoe daze + poison is op asf. Just try it.

Except it is. Lets ignore for a second how awful thief is in teamfights. And how easily dodged Choking Gas is. You know what I could do instead? Play Engineer, drop a crate on them, and get a 3 second AoE stun. While still doing tons of damage. Or I could fear everyone in an AoE as Necro, and still do tons of damage. Or Daze as a Spellbreaker and still do tons of damage. Youre getting the point, right?

[Crab Fear.1624]

/meh nvm just NERF THIEF

[Shao.7236]

@UNOwen.7132@Airdive.2613

The skill was fine before, there wasn't a need for it to be changed.

Now what we have is something that can be recklessly used rather than strategically because there's too much control, it's extremely oppressive to classes that rely on blocking and worst case be Herald and rooted to be denied by just a shortbow 4 from Thief. The application of poison before was already enough to punish those who stood still by re-application if it was cleared and dazed if standing too long. Back to back interrupts even if only done 2 times doesn't take into account everything else like Steal/Swipe, the 3 evades you're likely to have and the rest of your utility. Not only interrupt when you want like pistol 4 in an AoE, but poison as well. Past skill could daze more but was foreseeable, counter-able, it could do all the same aside being INSTANT DAZE and with little ability to do anything against it. FYI, when you interrupt something that something goes on 5 seconds cooldown and you can do that again and again easily especially if that's an important predictable skill. Yes Headshot can do that but that's what it's intended for and Shortbow just took that away with little disadvantages since this can be cast at feet with the same Headshot delay.

Hell they might as well call the skill Poisonous Flashbang or Toxic Concussion shot, it's ridiculous.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Shao.7236 said:@UNOwen.7132@Airdive.2613

The skill was fine before, there wasn't a need for it to be changed.

Now what we have is something that can be recklessly used rather than strategically because there's too much control, it's extremely oppressive to classes that rely on blocking and worst case be Herald and rooted to be denied by just a shortbow 4 from Thief. The application of poison before was already enough to punish those who stood still by re-application if it was cleared and dazed if standing too long. Back to back interrupts even if only done 2 times doesn't take into account everything else like Steal/Swipe, the 3 evades you're likely to have and the rest of your utility. Not only interrupt when you want like pistol 4 in an AoE, but poison as well. Past skill could daze more but was foreseeable, counter-able, it could do all the same aside being INSTANT DAZE and with little ability to do anything against it. FYI, when you interrupt something that something goes on 5 seconds cooldown and you can do that again and again easily especially if that's an important predictable skill. Yes Headshot can do that but that's what it's intended for and Shortbow just took that away with little disadvantages since this can be cast at feet with the same Headshot delay.

Hell they might as well call the skill Poisonous Flashbang or Toxic Concussion shot, it's ridiculous.

I mean if you want to revert it, go ahead. I liked the older version more anyway, better against downstate, which is the main time to use it. However, I should note its not nearly as good as headshot at interrupting things. Its got a cast-time that at least twice as long, but it also travels slowly. And sure, the thief can use it to interrupt blocks, but in exchange wont be able to do any real damage until he can swap back. But again, I preferred the old version anyway.