Humbly requesting a way to turn off legendary trinket effects

[Linken.6345]

6 hours ago, Rasimir.6239 said:

When they added the legendary armory, they explained that turning off these effects is technically difficult due to the somewhat convoluted way these effects were originally implemented.

 

The way I understand the explanation, this is still something they want to do, they just don't have the capacity to do it right now, as it would pretty much need a total rework of these objects.

Or they could code in legendary trinkets with no effect that people with aurora and vision could buy for nothing.

 

Since you cant wear more then 2 trinkets having 4 after making the two glowing ones make no difference at all.

[Kidel.2057]

20 hours ago, Rasimir.6239 said:

When they added the legendary armory, they explained that turning off these effects is technically difficult due to the somewhat convoluted way these effects were originally implemented.

 

The way I understand the explanation, this is still something they want to do, they just don't have the capacity to do it right now, as it would pretty much need a total rework of these objects.

From the wearer perspective, this is not hard at all thanks to legendary armory. They can simply add a second accessory with no effect and have it unusable with the other one (that system is already in place with Ascended accessories). 

From the outside I don't reallt get how it's difficult. The game has already options to disable gear entirely or some battle effects. I doubt they messed up so bad that they can't address a single effect with a toggle. 

[Dante.1763]

14 hours ago, Linken.6345 said:

Or they could code in legendary trinkets with no effect that people with aurora and vision could buy for nothing.

 

Since you cant wear more then 2 trinkets having 4 after making the two glowing ones make no difference at all.

That honestly seems like the best way to handle it. Or just auto unlock both when they are crafted.

 

The entire reason ive not bothered with vision/aurora is due to theor effect 😕

[Rasimir.6239]

2 hours ago, Kidel.2057 said:

From the wearer perspective, this is not hard at all thanks to legendary armory. They can simply add a second accessory with no effect and have it unusable with the other one (that system is already in place with Ascended accessories). 

From the outside I don't reallt get how it's difficult. The game has already options to disable gear entirely or some battle effects. I doubt they messed up so bad that they can't address a single effect with a toggle. 

It doesn't matter if you or I think that it should be easy. They have said they've tried to do it, but the current code base just doesn't allow so without an extensive rewrite. I've seen enough legacy code in 30 years of software development to easily believe them. It takes just one developer that gets carried away with a project without a clear view of modularity and future-proof code, to turn what should've been an easy adjustment into a huge rewriting nightmare.

 

The key point I took from their explanation is that it's really not a single effect, but the way the effects of the legendary pve trinkets build on each other that is posing the problem and isn't easy to isolate and change. Check out the dev tracker from shortly before the introduction to the armory if you're intersted in the full explanation.

 

Aside from that your "simple" solution isn't as easy nor as robust as you might think at first glance.

 

• The game does not have a system that allows one object to block the usage of an object with a different item blueprint in another open slot. We do have the unique tag, but that works only for objects of the same item blueprint. For example, while you can't use two uninfused unique rings of the same name, once one of the rings is infused, the game no longer recognises them as the same ring (since they have different blueprints) and allows you to use both.

 

• There seems to be no tech that allows to change an item unlocked in the armory to another. That's why for example slumbering conflux didn't get a slot in the armory, so people could exchange it for the full version as soon as the vendor was in place. If you put in a vendor to exchange the accessory with effect into one without, then you need to keep the version with effect out of the armory, which would certainly annoy a lot of people. Plus you would need to update the no-effect version to toggle-effect later on when that is implemented, and those that exchanged their trinket have no way to get the effect back until the real solution is implemented.

 

• No matter the workaround, it would still take considerable resources to implement and test it that would be better used in a real fix for the problem. If that fix is complex enough to have to be delayed, then that's unfortunate (and yes, I'm in the same boat, not using either Aurora or Vision because I'm waiting for the no-effect version), but it's still better use of resources than to waste them on a temporary workaround.

Edited August 2, 2021 by Rasimir.6239

[Dante.1763]

1 minute ago, Rasimir.6239 said:

It doesn't matter if you or I think that it should be easy. They have said they've tried to do it, but the current code base just doesn't allow so without an extensive rewrite. I've seen enough legacy code in 30 years of software development to easily believe them. It takes just one developer that gets carried away with a project without a clear view of modularity and future-proof code, to turn what should've been an easy adjustment into a huge rewriting nightmare.

 

The key point I took from their explanation is that it's really not a single effect, but the way the effects of the legendary pve trinkets build on each other that is posing the problem and isn't easy to isolate and change. Check out the dev tracker from shortly before the introduction to the armory if you're intersted in the full explanation.

 

Aside from that your "simple" solution isn't as easy nor as robust as you might think at first glance.

 

• The game does not have a system that allows one object to block the usage of an object with a different item blueprint in another open slot. We do have the unique tag, but that works only for objects of the same item blueprint. For example, while you can't use two uninfused unique rings of the same name, once one of the rings is infused, the game no longer recognises them as the same ring (since they have different blueprints) and allows you to use both.

 

• There seems to be no tech that allows to change an item unlocked in the armory to another. That's why for example slumbering conflux didn't get a slot in the armory, so people could exchange it for the full version as soon as the vendor was in place. If you put in a vendor to exchange the accessory with effect into one without, then you need to keep the version without out of the armory, which would certainly annoy a lot of people. Plus you would need to update the no-effect version to toggle-effect later on when that is implemented.

 

• No matter the workaround, it would still take considerable resources to implement and test it that would be better used in a real fix for the problem. If that fix is complex enough to have to be delayed, then that's unfortunate (and yes, I'm in the same boat, not using either Aurora or Vision because I'm waiting for the no-effect version), but it's still better use of resources than to waste them on a temporary workaround.

Im curious how long it would take to:

 

1.) Code a new legendary trinket for both vision and aurora(and whatever else has orbs that cant be turned off.)

2.) Code it so that when Vision or Aurora are crafted it also unlocks the above item.

 

That way they dont have to tinker with the actual coding/mechanic of how the orbs work. The art for the item can be the same, and the name can be to with "(Efectless or Slumbering)" on the end of it.

 

So while it would be a new item, it seems way easier than screwing with the code of the old ones.

[Rasimir.6239]

2 minutes ago, Dante.1763 said:

Im curious how long it would take to:

 

1.) Code a new legendary trinket for both vision and aurora(and whatever else has orbs that cant be turned off.)

2.) Code it so that when Vision or Aurora are crafted it also unlocks the above item.

 

That way they dont have to tinker with the actual coding/mechanic of how the orbs work. The art for the item can be the same, and the name can be to with "(Efectless or Slumbering)" on the end of it.

 

So while it would be a new item, it seems way easier than screwing with the code of the old ones.

From the way they explained the problem, that's actually what I expect them to do. I have no insight into their internal workflows though, and no idea how many people would be involved in this (tech, db, qa, release, whatever), nor how easy it would be to set the required people free from whatever EoD tasks they might be on right now.

 

Basically that's what I took away from the explanation they gave: they don't have the needed resources available right now without throwing a wrench into other projects that have a higher priority right now. I fully expect them to tackle this problem as soon as the necessary people are available.

[Trejgon.9367]

5 minutes ago, Dante.1763 said:

1.) Code a new legendary trinket for both vision and aurora(and whatever else has orbs that cant be turned off.)

2.) Code it so that when Vision or Aurora are crafted it also unlocks the above item.

 

and then you get into issue that crafting either gives you two legendary accessories for the price of one, people complaining that they have farmed all the resources they wouldn't if they knew they could get both slots occupied with just one, and ontop of that this would prevent real fix from ever arriving, because at the point AN would try to take away the "quickfix" effectless trinkets, there would be uproar of people who got used to having two triknets while they only every crafted one.

[Dante.1763]

2 minutes ago, Rasimir.6239 said:

From the way they explained the problem, that's actually what I expect them to do. I have no insight into their internal workflows though, and no idea how many people would be involved in this (tech, db, qa, release, whatever), nor how easy it would be to set the required people free from whatever EoD tasks they might be on right now.

 

Basically that's what I took away from the explanation they gave: they don't have the needed resources available right now without throwing a wrench into other projects that have a higher priority right now. I fully expect them to tackle this problem as soon as the necessary people are available.

Ahh, gotcha! I know the code of the game is a nightmare for sure, so i dont doubt it takes time.

[Dante.1763]

1 minute ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

 

and then you get into issue that crafting either gives you two legendary accessories for the price of one, people complaining that they have farmed all the resources they wouldn't if they knew they could get both slots occupied with just one, and ontop of that this would prevent real fix from ever arriving, because at the point AN would try to take away the "quickfix" effectless trinkets, there would be uproar of people who got used to having two triknets while they only every crafted one.

Easy esque fix. Make the game do a check. If you have Vision equipped you cant have Vision(slumbering) equipped. Same with Aurora/ the other items that dont have a toggle. That way you arent getting two for one. You are getting a choice between the effects or no.

[Rasimir.6239]

6 minutes ago, Dante.1763 said:

Ahh, gotcha! I know the code of the game is a nightmare for sure, so i dont doubt it takes time.

Seriously, I've yet to meet any large codebase that's been worked on for several years that isn't a nightmare to maintain and expand, and I've seen quite a few in my time (no games though unfortunately 😉 ). Developers are just human after all, and expressing concepts in code has just as many variations as expressing them in spoken words.

Edited August 2, 2021 by Rasimir.6239

[Trejgon.9367]

2 minutes ago, Dante.1763 said:

Easy esque fix. Make the game do a check. If you have Vision equipped you cant have Vision(slumbering) equipped. Same with Aurora/ the other items that dont have a toggle. That way you arent getting two for one. You are getting a choice between the effects or no.

 

and to that allow me to respond with a quote of another poster before:

 

20 minutes ago, Rasimir.6239 said:

The game does not have a system that allows one object to block the usage of an object with a different item blueprint in another open slot.

 

and no, the "add new item to be awarded from same crafting recipe" does not count. it would be separate item with separate attribute separate ID, even if it's single same recipe that spurted out both.

(the example of infused vs no infused trinkets - they are separate items with separate item ID with different amount of infusion slots, regardless of "crafting recipe" used in producing them)

[Rasimir.6239]

3 minutes ago, Dante.1763 said:

Easy esque fix. Make the game do a check. If you have Vision equipped you cant have Vision(slumbering) equipped. Same with Aurora/ the other items that dont have a toggle. That way you arent getting two for one. You are getting a choice between the effects or no.

We don't have a tech in game yet that is able to do that, so you'd need new tech for it, including quality assurance, ui artists (so the players understand why they can't use both), database space (two different spots for vision in the armory instead of one), and probably a lot more.

 

Why spend those resources on a temporary fix if you can just wait and use it on a real fix down the line?

[Dante.1763]

3 minutes ago, Rasimir.6239 said:

Seriously, I've yet to meet any large codebase that's been worked on for several years that isn't a nightmare to maintain and expand, and I've seen quite a few in my time (no games though unfortunately 😉 ). Developers are just human after all, and expressing concepts in code has just as many variations as expressing them in spoken words.

This ones so bad. We have so many bugs in game that just cant be fixed because they break other things.  Fixing a bug for a dungeon breaks stuff in open world etc xD

[Flapjackson.1596]

I know they have explored easy options and shelved it for now, but I still wonder if manipulating the buff given by the trinkets could work. Just thinking about the training console in the Raid Golem area, that is an interactable object that can give you permanent boons. Since the trinket effect operates off of a buff, a similar interactable object should be able to provide the trinket buff no? Having more than 3 stacks could have a "nothing" effect, so players that interact with the object essentially turn off their trinket effects. If they wanted to come up with a better solution down the line, you'd remove the interactable.

[Dante.1763]

13 minutes ago, Rasimir.6239 said:

We don't have a tech in game yet that is able to do that, so you'd need new tech for it, including quality assurance, ui artists (so the players understand why they can't use both), database space (two different spots for vision in the armory instead of one), and probably a lot more.

 

Why spend those resources on a temporary fix if you can just wait and use it on a real fix down the line?

I dont disagree. Id rather wait for a real fix anyways. Ill just hold off on finishing them until then.

[Kidel.2057]

4 hours ago, Rasimir.6239 said:

cut

No idea what they claimed before, but the trinket effect can be easily added as a buff effect (we already have items giving a buff with a visual effect) and so enabled and disabled. That's existing code. 

Buff effects and attack effects can also be already toggled from the options menu. I don't think that's so hard since it's existing code, again. 

 

I think the point is that they fear users who struggled to GET the effect will be angry if other people decide to disable it. Because some legendary hunters in this game are showoffs. 

 

It's a choice. 

Aside from that I think that an option to SELF disable that effect (also for the others) would not harm anyone, and would probably be easier (again, the buff thing). 

Personally I think that an option to disable legendary effects on others would also greatly benefit most players and game performance.

Edited August 2, 2021 by Kidel.2057
typos

[Rasimir.6239]

5 minutes ago, Kidel.2057 said:

No idea what they claimed before, but the trinket effect can be easily added as a buff effect (we already have items giving a buff with a visual effect) and so enabled and disabled. 

So you have access to the code? Interesting ...

 

You know, it's really irrelevant what you think when they have flat-out told us what the problem is:

 

Edited August 2, 2021 by Rasimir.6239

[Kidel.2057]

No need to repeat the same thing over and over and try to think this logically. They add a buff per item to determine which effect to use, right? What about another buff to change that effect to <no effect>? I get that they said it's hard, It just doesn't make sense to me. 

Now you can go ahead and say that I don't have access to the code. Sure, nice counter argument. Bravo. What about the fact that a buff can change the effect? Now show me that an effect cannot be null, invisible or tiny. Please show me that the current system doesn't allow for that. 

 

And keep in mind that your link is only talking about how to remove those effect from your own characters, not how to disable it for others (whic is the main topic here). They're not even considering that. 

Also this just confirms me that they're more worried about players' reactions about my previous point (they don't explicitly address it, but this is the main mindset, and it's understandable). 

 

Edited August 2, 2021 by Kidel.2057

[BlueJin.4127]

Again, if Anet made it so that players need to make both Aurora AND Vision to get slumbering versions of both accessories, this would be an easy fix. Getting 4 accessories after making only 2 accessories gives players no advantage what-so-ever since players can only equip 2 accessories.

Edited August 2, 2021 by BlueJin.4127

[Jong.5937]

So then those who have only one are stuck with the effect on all characters. I can only imagine the raging if that were Anet's solution!!

And what about Coalescence.?? That also stacks the same buff as the accessories. Does that mean you might be stuck with the purple bubbles if you have one accessory and the ring??

It is quite complicated!

I still think a tick box to disable the buff completely on character, with no option to disable for each trinket individually should be practically possible but, yeah, I don't know the code 😳.

 

Edited August 2, 2021 by Jong.5937

[Dante.1763]

2 minutes ago, Jong.5937 said:

So then those who have only one are stuck with the effect on all characters. I can only imagine the raging if that were Anet's solution!!

And what about Coalescence.?? That also stacks the same buff as the accessories. Does that mean you might be stuck with the purple bubbles if you have one accessory and the ring??

It is quite complicated!

I still think a tick box to disable the buff completely on character, with no option to disable for each trinket individually should be practically possible but, yeah, I don't know the code 😳.

 

Using Bluejins solutions if you crafted Aurora youd get the slumbering version as well. If you crafted Coalescense youd get the slumber version of it, same for Vision.

[Jong.5937]

Bluejin didn't mention the ring and only suggested giving the slumbering versions once people had both accessories. So, those with just the ring or just one accessory or the ring plus one accessory would still see the effect. At least, that's how I read it.

Assuming he meant to include Coalescence and just forgot, do people get both versions of the ring regardless of how many accessories they have and how (easily) do they stop people equipping both??

Edited August 2, 2021 by Jong.5937

[BlueJin.4127]

Same solution applies to rings, too, of course. If players have 2 legendary rings unlocked, give them slumbering versions of those rings. Like accessories, having 4 rings gives no advantage what-so-ever over having only 2 rings. It’s a simple solution if devs don’t want to put in the effort for a proper solution. While it doesn’t solve the problem for players with only 1 ring/accessory, it’s better than leaving it as is. And odds are, players who make a legendary ring/accessory will want to make 2, anyways. Plus, this would give players more incentive to complete a set of legendary rings/accessories.

Edited August 2, 2021 by BlueJin.4127

[Rasimir.6239]

1 hour ago, BlueJin.4127 said:

It’s a simple solution if devs don’t want to put in the effort for a proper solution.

But they've told us they want to do that, and I at least am positive they will do it. They just didn't have the resources available to do it in time for the release of the legendary armory.

[Bright Oblivion.2856]

As Rasimir said, it seems less a "We don't want to put in the effort to fix it" and more "The people who would fix it are currently working on other (possibly EoD-related) things and can't work on this right now." Which, depending on how complex such a system as you're suggesting actually is to implement, they might also not have the appropriate resources (read: engineering peoples) available to do that right now, either. I think we're kind of just in a waiting game right now.

 

I also think it unlikely that after they expressly decided not to include Slumbering Conflux in the Armory (you have to trade it to Hobbs and get the regular version to add it), they'll agree to a solution that involves adding a slumbering version (at least of that ring) to it. I could be wrong, though.