What is wrong with WvW in 2020?

[Sovereign.1093]

It is like something that has something missing.

And what is missing is tournaments :)

[nthmetal.9652]

@"Threather.9354" said:Guild Tactics and Improvements balanceDragon banner: Every server has a few players that are "dragon banner mains". And this tactic is so strong that it twists fights around it.How to fix: Either nerf damage of dragon banner skills or reduce range of them. They deal too much damage for the fact that the banner user is quite impossible to kill if they run certain builds/comp. The banner user also shouldn't get increased movement speed. Dragon banner 2 should also have increased cooldown.

BS. Really. Maybe it needs to be fixed where you can bring a dragonbanner, that is meant for the defense of a specific objective, but it doesn't need to be nerfed overall. We kill dragonbanners all the time, sometimes needing to face two or more at the same time. Just dodge that stuff, cleanse and counterattack. They are not a big issue; if they are, the attacking group has other problems. It's almost never the dragonbanner, that's the root cause of the problem.Of course in a 1v1 a dragonbanner is powerful, but it rightfully so. It is a tactic available for a limited time, you need to invest to create that defensive option by tiering up an objective, and having the dragon banner tactic in the first place so that it can be placed on the objective. It needs to have impact for all this to make sense.

[Sovereign.1093]

1 db user vs many is a fluke. But 10 versus 30 or 40 in Lord's room fully upgraded keep with clouding pugs is doable.

[nthmetal.9652]

Generally, reading through the points broguht forward in OP I have a feeling that a lot of the problems relate to tiered-up objectives. Have you ever thought about not allowing the enemy to tier up those objectives?Is your server maybe a fight-server? "Not interested in PPT, we don't do PvE trash here"? Well, maybe there's more reasons to go after objectives early and all the time other than just wanting to PPT. Not only does it create a good mix of activities, but it also prevents enemies from tiering that stuff up, so that it gets harder to take. And hey, maybe, just maybe you can establish a culture where you have fight commanders work alongside "PPT" commanders, where one tries for the hard fights, while the other flips objectives so that that even if a fight moves toward one of the objectives, the enemy doesn't have that big of an advantage. Or maybe the objective the fights moves to is... your own! Shocking, isn't it?And on top of all that, you give your pugs and non-meta players something to do instead of trying to sort into all guild-only heavily organized combat oriented squads.

[GDchiaScrub.3241]

The plague (I guess not there fault), and twitter. Too much pandering not enough game changing.

D:

[Vornollo.5182]

Actually agree on all points raised.Only things I'd adjust would be the Mount and the way that Marked works.Mounts (which WvW didn't need before either) should be there just for Mobility. As soon as there's player combat of any kind, you should get dismounted. At the very bare minimum Mounts should be affected by CC's and such effects.Personally I'm fine with the effect 'Marked', being able to see the red dots (which already update relatively slow) is what generally leads to more fights.I am however not fine with the effect of 'Detected!'. The fact that some areas allow for absolutely no way of getting off a stealth engage (which is currently quite critical if you want to run any sort of melee, compared to the pirate-shipping we're back at now) is just mind boggling in my opinion.Keep Marked, but for the sake of bringing back some melee, they should really get rid of 'Detected!' it's not like perma-stealthing thieves are still a problem.Heck, if that's really an issue have the 'Detected!' debuff Reveal you after 10 seconds and have it maintain the Revealed effect on your character for 30 seconds or something.I'd genuinely prefer that over this complete area-denial. 'Detected!' really grinds my gears, both while roaming and while playing with my melee-only guild. It's also not fun to play against... We actually actively try to get our enemies away from these two debuffs so that we're all on an even playing field (even if we're outnumbered 2:1, lmao) because it's really that garbage of an addition to the game.

[Lord of the Fire.6870]

I agree basically nearly non of these points in general there are options which are useful and some not the suggestion here would make everything that is useful crippled

Dragon banner: Okay it is stronger then the other that needs to be changed dragon a bit down the others up.

Packed dolyaks: It depend speedy dolyaks are as good as them when nobody gives the Packed dolyak swiftness also Packed dolyaks can't enter a keep I forgot which this is bug never fixed by Arena.NET. What is down in the power curve are armored dolyak

Iron guard & Watchtower: First Iron Guard again is the superior choice over Hardened Siege because it only make the weapons of the tower/keep more resilient which is useless because it is the first to go an alternatives would be it makes the wall more resilient.

I think the main problem here is perception you can flip a T3 tower with iron guard in under 2 minutes , the attack event starts after I think 20-30s. Most maps are dominated by monoblops which needs to fight on 2 fronts often at the same time Watchtower &Iron Guard makes the difference if something can be hold or not.

From my perspective it is the opposite there are countless tricks you can use to bypass this even further you can basically everywhere build catapults outside of the reach of the watchtower . You can often build catapult over the cap by building them on 2 different position and you still can the char car. Quickness works on catas and golems. On T0/T1 it is still possible to open a wall before the attack event starts

It true that you can not do everything with a small roamer group but in general its is a question if you can or can't

Presence of the keep: This much harder to say but in general this is to counter siege gear which the enemy brings with him also attacking an enemy keep is meant to be hard.

About the Mount : I can only agree to Mil.3562 the only thing I can add I never liked how this mount killed downed but it did like it how it allowed me to rejoin a fight on the other side of the map and made possible to defend those T0/T1 tower which were open after 20sec . After the last nerf it is nearly useless.

I would add also a speculation to this we all know that with every add-on we got a new movement type Since there are not much options left it seems to narrow down to be setup your own waypoints alternative maybe portals by every class. Since every new movement type came to wvw this will come to while I suggest this won't work without front line mechanic . I think all those haters will wish back the old days when the mount was their problem if this comes.

[Blacknight.2854]

Lack of a patch ? (in small format 15vs15 the bubble war may still have too much impact)

[Vornollo.5182]

@Blacknight.2854 said:Lack of a patch ? (in small format 15vs15 the bubble war may still have too much impact)

Winds of Disenchantment has too much impact on X vs 15, tbf.It's just ridiculous by design... A big mobile field that strips boons and on top of that also makes it impossible to reapply critical boons..? How anyone ever even thought that was a good design is just beyond me.Remove the effect where you cannot reapply the stripped boons at least and either reduce the radius or make it a targeted AoE again like it used to be.It's been in this overly power-crept stage since March 2019 and has defined how larger groups almost have to play. Time for a change and hopefully one that isn't so ranged-favored.

[Lord of the Fire.6870]

@Vornollo.5182 said:

@Blacknight.2854 said:Lack of a patch ? (in small format 15vs15 the bubble war may still have too much impact)

Winds of Disenchantment has too much impact on X vs 15, tbf.It's just ridiculous by design... A big mobile field that strips boons and on top of that also makes it impossible to reapply critical boons..? How anyone ever even thought that was a good design is just beyond me.Remove the effect where you cannot reapply the stripped boons at least and either reduce the radius or make it a targeted AoE again like it used to be.It's been in this overly power-crept stage since March 2019 and has defined how larger groups almost

have

to play. Time for a change and hopefully one that isn't so ranged-favored.

Okay wvw beginner course ..

The effect of Winds of Disenchantment has been nerfed multiply times it used to strip much more boons now it is just 1 also it was changed so that the spellbreaker can't do anything while the effect is running and also end when the spellbreaker gets cc. The main effect of Winds of Disenchantment is you can't get new boons while under it.

The main boons trips come still from necros in the current meta setup

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Vornollo.5182 said:

@Blacknight.2854 said:Lack of a patch ? (in small format 15vs15 the bubble war may still have too much impact)

Winds of Disenchantment has too much impact on X vs 15, tbf.It's just ridiculous by design... A big mobile field that strips boons and on top of that also makes it impossible to reapply critical boons..? How anyone ever even thought that was a good design is just beyond me.Remove the effect where you cannot reapply the stripped boons at least and either reduce the radius or make it a targeted AoE again like it used to be.It's been in this overly power-crept stage since March 2019 and has defined how larger groups almost

have

to play. Time for a change and hopefully one that isn't so ranged-favored.

Honestly it needs to be more powerful with longer duration. Wvw is far far to boon heavy and at the ease of re-aplication of boons having the ability to reaply the boons would just render wod completely useless. What needs to happen is wod needs to also remove and block all aoe condi carpets within the area of effect giving battles some prime melee action instead of the brainless ranged aoe condi spam fiesta that wvw blobs are now. That would actually make blob fights fun again.

[Vornollo.5182]

@"Lord of the Fire.6870"It's been nerfed, yes. Once. Enjoy checking the wiki on it and actually having a proper look through it's patchnotes.The only nerf it's actually had is to the Duration.

February 06, 2018

The boon-removal pulse has been increased from 0.5 seconds to 1 second.March 05, 2019This is now a channeled skill, and it will follow the warrior. Its pulse time has been reduced from 1 second to 0.5 seconds with the duration remaining at 5 seconds. >>Breaking the channel will now destroy the spell. The casting time has been reduced to 0.5 seconds.The only nerfs it's had were to Duration (10 to 5 seconds) after which they made the damn thing Mobile. And recently it's target cap has been normalized from 10 to 5 targets. The duration nerf was made moot by undoing the pulse nerf, lmfao.Cry me a river over getting brought in line with other skills' target cap.

It's still too strong, many fights are quite literally decided by whoever spams most bubbles.Especially in the scenario of a small (organised) group fighting against a large® (unorganised) group. All it takes is 5 muppets popping their bubble while running around like a headless chicken to completely bend you over. There's no thought process behind it other than "oh there's something red over there! Oohhh over there too!" to properly mess people up with it. I'm against all forms of "braindead" gameplay, WoD's just been one of the biggest offenders (in my opinion and many others'). WoD's a crutch in it's current iteration.

@Psycoprophet.8107Try running as part of an actual Melee group rather than some pirate-shippy snoozefest. (sorry for the assumption)I'm not against boonstripping at all, the issue with Winds of Disenchantment is with the 'Disenchantment' effect that entirely prevents reapplication of boons.I'd rather spam all my stability and get it all stripped every 0.75 second, but at least have a counter to Winds of Disenchantment despite having to blow all of my CD's on it (Hence no 'Enchantment Collapse' part in here).Plus there's more professions that are actually good at boonstripping, it's not a Spellbreaker exclusive.Something to deal with conditions without over-tuning WoD even more is already there; Resistance.Guess what screws that up though..? Usually it's Winds of Disenchantment.

So TL:DR, Boonstripping is completely fine (even a bit lacking), entirely preventing Boon-Application is not.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Vornollo.5182 said:@"Lord of the Fire.6870"It's been nerfed, yes. Once. Enjoy checking the wiki on it and actually having a proper look through it's patchnotes.The only nerf it's actually had is to the Duration.

February 06, 2018

The boon-removal pulse has been increased from 0.5 seconds to 1 second.March 05, 2019

This is now a channeled skill, and it will follow the warrior. Its pulse time has been reduced from 1 second to 0.5 seconds with the duration remaining at 5 seconds. >>Breaking the channel will now destroy the spell. The casting time has been reduced to 0.5 seconds.The only nerfs it's had were to Duration (10 to 5 seconds) after which they made the kitten thing Mobile. And recently it's target cap has been normalized from 10 to 5 targets. The duration nerf was made moot by undoing the pulse nerf, lmfao.Cry me a river over getting brought in line with other skills' target cap.

It's still too strong, many fights are quite literally decided by whoever spams most bubbles.Especially in the scenario of a small (organised) group fighting against a large® (unorganised) group. All it takes is 5 muppets popping their bubble while running around like a headless chicken to completely bend you over. There's no thought process behind it other than "oh there's something red over there! Oohhh over there too!" to properly mess people up with it. I'm against all forms of "braindead" gameplay, WoD's just been one of the biggest offenders (in my opinion and many others'). WoD's a crutch in it's current iteration.

@Psycoprophet.8107Try running as part of an actual Melee group rather than some pirate-shippy snoozefest.I'm not against boonstripping at all, the issue with Winds of Disenchantment is with the 'Disenchantment' effect that entirely prevents reapplication of boons.I'd rather spam all my stability and get it all stripped every 0.75 second, but at least have a counter to Winds of Disenchantment despite having to blow all of my CD's on it (Hence no 'Enchantment Collapse' part in here).Plus there's more professions that are actually good at boonstripping, it's not a Spellbreaker exclusive.Something to deal with conditions without over-tuning WoD even more is already there; Resistance.Guess what screws that up though..? Usually it's Winds of Disenchantment.

So TL:DR, Boonstripping is completely fine (even a bit lacking), entirely preventing Boon-Application is not.

Try running a melee group he says lol yeah that would work well against the perma booned continual aoe ranged brainless condi spam that is every blob. Ud melt before reaching a target in melee range and by time u got one skill off ud have to TRY and disengage before melting.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Theres a good reason over the years every blob is surrounded by 100's of condi carpets.

[Vornollo.5182]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

snip

Try running a melee group he says lol yeah that would work well against the perma booned continual aoe ranged brainless condi spam that is every blob. Ud melt before reaching a target in melee range and by time u got one skill off ud have to TRY and disengage before melting.Can be done, stealth engages are a thing, though 'Marked' and 'Detected!' effects make it tedious at times. We've been doing it actually relatively successful for the past couple of months, even while running ~15 vs 30+.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Yeah I've never seen a melee group do $hit in over 3 yrs lol. Maybe it is possible, anything is right.

[XenesisII.1540]

Think winds is fine as it is and highly needed in this boon ball era. In the beginning we use to get fights where 10 of them would be spammed in a row when you could just drop it on the ground, now with the mobile version there's a risk to the warrior for using it at the wrong time which is fine for the power it has, the 10s duration was obviously over the top.

[Faenar.8036]

Whats wrong with WvW 2020?

The non-existence of WvW playerbase <-> ArenaNet communication. Please pay increased attention to the "<->" sign which I was using in meaning of TWO-way communication, not one-sided monologs.

I play GW2 since the game was launched, but I do not remember even an one single moment in GW2 history, where any ArenaNet manager is actively discussing with any WvW player, or at least with a playerbase-elected delegate, something like CCP did in their EVE Online game. Well, I remember there was a similar attempt from ArenaNet like 3 or 4 years ago, to elect someone as an ambassador of WvW playerbase (exactly the case I mentioned with the CCP and EVE Online), but afaik it ceased before anything actually happened. I think it was on the old version of GW2 forum, this new forum version is only roughly 2 or 3 years old. and I dont know what happened with the old forum, probably deleted. Even in this new GW2 forum, there are literally dozens or even hundreds of WvW improvement suggestions from player (include myself), but the only existing responses from ArenaNet (if the thread is lucky enough to get any ANet response at all) are just inexplicit and evasive sentences like "we can look about that" / "it is still a work in progress, stay tuned and in the meanwhile, enjoy our freshly released new mount skin for just only 1600 gems" and similar inexplicit and evasive "answers".

*TLDR: ANet does not comunicate with WvW playerbase .... = alpha and omega of the WvW problem.

[XenesisII.1540]

@"Faenar.8036" said:Whats wrong with WvW 2020?

The non-existence of WvW playerbase <-> ArenaNet communication. Please pay increased attention to the "<->" sign which I was using in meaning of TWO-way communication, not one-sided monologs.

I play GW2 since the game was launched, but I do not remember even an one single moment in GW2 history, where any ArenaNet manager is actively discussing with any WvW player, or at least with a playerbase-elected delegate, something like CCP did in their EVE Online game. Well, I remember there was a similar attempt from ArenaNet like 3 or 4 years ago, to elect someone as an ambassador of WvW playerbase (exactly the case I mentioned with the CCP and EVE Online), but afaik it ceased before anything actually happened. I think it was on the old version of GW2 forum, this new forum version is only roughly 2 or 3 years old. and I dont know what happened with the old forum, probably deleted. Even in this new GW2 forum, there are literally dozens or even hundreds of WvW improvement suggestions from player (include myself), but the only existing responses from ArenaNet (if the thread is lucky enough to get any ANet response at all) are just inexplicit and evasive sentences like "we can look about that" / "it is still a work in progress, stay tuned and in the meanwhile, enjoy our freshly released new mount skin for just only 1600 gems" and similar inexplicit and evasive "answers".

*TLDR: ANet does not comunicate with WvW playerbase .... = alpha and omega of the WvW problem.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv

[Faenar.8036]

@"XenesisII.1540" said:https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv

Aaa, nice, thanks for that link.