Retaliation problems

[Safandula.8723]

@Delita Silverburg.8632 said:

@Safandula.8723 said:

@Delita Silverburg.8632 said:

@Safandula.8723 said:

This is what they deserve for just standing back and pewpewing. Running away and kiting on a ranger/deadeye that has 1500 range needs to be combated somehow for melee characters like a guardian and honestly, I'm ok with retal being one option for that. The design of retal allows a person to close that gap and not just get killed in the process. The only reason I could see a person crying for a boon to be removed from the game is because they do not have a fundamental understanding of how boon strips work. This is on you to learn how the mechanics of the game function and how to work around them.

what about nerfing ranged classes as they are bs obviously and cut out retal that is cucking everyone else. so are you saying that retal is made to close the gaps while fighting rangers?

I'm saying it's one option of interaction for the exact example you provided. There are plenty of other ways of counter play available as well. Nerfing ranged classes doesn't solve the problem either. Having different ways to play the game is what keeps people coming back. My point is that you can't cry for a boon to be removed that has a legitimate function in the game., and has counter play against it. You do not just have to "wait for it to fall off", you can just as easily boon strip it. Play a necro or spellbreaker for a change of pace if you're struggling, or heck, even run marauder's gear to give yourself a larger health pool to react/survive. IMO if you play a glass cannon zerker build, you get what you pay for. You might one shot some peeps, but if an intelligent person reacts by giving themselves retal, it's a legitimate strategy of counter play.

if someone plays full zerker ele, u dont need retal. jsut hit him 2 times and hes done. hes countering himself by lower hp/armor pool, absolutely no need for retal there. now dont tell that retal is counter to glass cannon zerker build, cuz its not. its counter to every FAST ATTACKING build, even if this build has no dmg at all, but procs many dmg ticks. btw u know what happens if u strip retal from guardian? it appears again. and i dont rly want to play necro or spellbreaker, and i get cucked if i want to play anything with many dmg ticks. bad design

[Strider Pj.2193]

So... the full zerker ele does less damage to himself than the group he is attacking. Obviously, if the group he is a part of is around, he will get healed by one of his party members. It works out.

And if he is in a party without a healer, and is playing full zerk, he deserves the damage.

In PvE, maybe, just maybe someone shouldn’t be going full zerk in an area with mobs that carry retal?Maybe bring some vitality or damage reduction food.

And if your still not able to live through it, get help.

[HAsAsIN.6724]

cancel your Longbow #2 attack by the hotkey or weapon swapping or by pressing right mouse click and W or A or S or D.

[Teratus.2859]

I don't have issues with it in competitive but in PvE it's a horrible near useless boon for players and a stupidly OP one on some enemies.

There's some enemies in the game that have way too much retal.. and boon stripping is hardly something most classes are capable of without sacrificing a sigil for it which is a total waste in most PvE since most enemies don't buff themselves.I'm not a fan of this at all, being forced not to attack because of a condition is a different story since everyone can cleanse.Boon rip on the other hand is pretty class or spec exclusive for the most part or as I said requires dumping a useful sigil for one that's extremely circumstantial.. hard to justify.Imo Retaliation should be more reserved in open world and more of a thing in group content like raids, dungeons, fractals and strikes where boon stripping should be a common if not neccessary mechanic for a chunk of it.

[ArchonWing.9480]

PvE retal is probably worse because it's not nerfed like it is in competitive and also bringing tanky gear in pve just kinda ruins the whole thing. It should not appear in open world at least with a clearly defined warning from the game or something. Expecting boon rip in a setting that is not supposed to be organized is not reasonable.

While they don't have retaliation, I think the worst examples are those guild bounties like Yanoka which basically punishes you for having anything other than single target attacks. and makes it an utter pain for some classes entirely.

[Safandula.8723]

@Strider Pj.2193 said:So... the full zerker ele does less damage to himself than the group he is attacking. Obviously, if the group he is a part of is around, he will get healed by one of his party members. It works out.

And if he is in a party without a healer, and is playing full zerk, he deserves the damage.

In PvE, maybe, just maybe someone shouldn’t be going full zerk in an area with mobs that carry retal?Maybe bring some vitality or damage reduction food.

And if your still not able to live through it, get help.

dont u think any class should die, only if he actually gets attacked?

[IndigoSundown.5419]

Counter-play for Retaliation amounts to: waiting for it to run out; healing through it; or stripping it. What I see as the issues with Retaliation in open PvE are:

• Not everyone can boon-strip. Even if you can recognize the need to, only some builds on some professions can strip a boon.
• The drop-in nature of PvE means that there will not always be a healer or a boon stripper where you are playing. In such cases, counter-play can only be done via waiting or healing oneself. Running a self-sustaining build is perhaps second-nature for some, but foreign to others. Waiting can also be problematic if you need to burn the mobs down quickly to finish an event or keep them from eating your face. In Drizzlewood, for example, events like the Mortar or Cannon Defense events can involve one player facing a dozen mobs, and there is not a lot of self-sustain that can wait out such damage. The design assumption seems to have been that several players would work together across the map while this is not what always happens in practice.
• ANet stated long ago they wanted people watching the screen, not the UI. The issue there is that the only ways to recognize that it is Retaliation that is damaging you is to watch the UI or to be enough of a student of mob abilities to know that there is more damage incoming than you would expect.
• The recognition issue is further exacerbated by effects spam fog-of-war. It can be difficult to see mobs if there are large numbers of them and large numbers of players using abilities.
• For a company that asks players to be enough of a student of the game to recognize such issues and react to them, ANet made an awful lot of decisions over the years in the name of player retention to remove the need to pay attention to what the enemy is doing. This last issue is probably the core of the problem.

[Strider Pj.2193]

@Safandula.8723 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:So... the full zerker ele does less damage to himself than the group he is attacking. Obviously, if the group he is a part of is around, he will get healed by one of his party members. It works out.

And if he is in a party without a healer, and is playing full zerk, he deserves the damage.

In PvE, maybe, just maybe someone shouldn’t be going full zerk in an area with mobs that carry retal?Maybe bring some vitality or damage reduction food.

And if your still not able to live through it, get help.

dont u think any class should die, only if he actually gets attacked?

No.

Dont you think a game based on cooperative play should punish those who aren’t cooperative?

[Strider Pj.2193]

@ArchonWing.9480 said:PvE retal is probably worse because it's not nerfed like it is in competitive and also bringing tanky gear in pve just kinda ruins the whole thing. It should not appear in open world at least with a clearly defined warning from the game or something. Expecting boon rip in a setting that is not supposed to be organized is not reasonable.

So... it’s not enough that for PvE there is basically one (MAAAAAYYYBE two) gear sets that is needed, so that we are going to further make one successful like a hot knife through butter?

Just because it’s a mindless form of gameplay, doesn’t mean we have to continue to make it even more so..?

Or does it?

IDK.

[ArchonWing.9480]

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@ArchonWing.9480 said:PvE retal is probably worse because it's not nerfed like it is in competitive and also bringing tanky gear in pve just kinda ruins the whole thing. It should not appear in open world at least with a clearly defined warning from the game or something. Expecting boon rip in a setting that is not supposed to be organized is not reasonable.

So... it’s not enough that for PvE there is basically one (MAAAAAYYYBE two) gear sets that is needed, so that we are going to further make one successful like a hot knife through butter?

Just because it’s a mindless form of gameplay, doesn’t mean we have to continue to make it even more so..?

Or does it?

IDK.

Yea, but when the answer is on a completely different class, it doesn't really encourage any thoughtful gameplay, besides avoiding it completely I guess. Open World is mostly designed to be solo'd outside of group events.

In organized pve (fractals/raids) or WvW, there is a responsibility for players to come up with proper comps and work with one another. If they fail to bring boonstrip or cleanse, then it's on the team as a whole. This is why people have to bring builds that synergize with one another and not just yolo in.