The Condition Battle

[AliamRationem.5172]

@Ghos.1326 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@Ghos.1326 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@Ghos.1326 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@Ghos.1326 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@Ghos.1326 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Ghos.1326 said:What I am suggesting is this: take a step back in time where burning and poison was capped at only 1 stack (yet still hit pretty hard), and can be extended in duration for using other skills that also applied burning or poison. also, where other skills didn't apply stupid amounts of other conditions on you, and was truly a ramp up over time playstyle that was very rewarding to play if you played it right. This, I believe, was when condition damage was at its greatest moment in its lifetime in this game. And unironically, when it was the most FUN to play.Many of the changes that can occur to many of the professions currently can be very simple: cut down on stacks of certain conditions output per skill so that it doesn't feel super oppressive, and/or cut down on the uptime of a certain condition/s of a particular skill depending on how many stacks it actually does output (lower stacks output = longer uptime, higher = shorter). Or, take a step back and, for PvP and WvW only, cap burning and poison to 1 cap like before. These changes alone would put many condition builds that are currently overperforming into a more balanced state, without having to rework the entire skill, or even worse; change it. It could save a lot of time, resources, and energy balancing.

I generally do agree that certain conditions need to be capped in competitive modes specifically burn and poison.Also some traits still exist for certain professions that make certain conditions do 33% more damage than normal which is a rather LARGE (i wont call out which professions specifically we know which ones) boost considering how the nerf bat was slammed on power effectiveness not sure why those traits remain at such a large increase.

Some conditions are a bit overwhelming in comparison to power builds and having more sustain that their power counterparts really does make one go "ughh"

Take a look at this clip. Look at how much power damage is being dealt. The holosmith deals about 10k damage to me in the first 3 seconds of the fight. I attempt to counter-pressure by landing a stun, but the holosmith goes invuln and I take a 4.5k shot from the druid. The druid does take a 1k burn tick following the exchange, however. Yay condi!

Once the holosmith comes out of invuln, I land a polaric leap/flame expulsion for nearly 4k power damage. Condi is not really on the radar at this point. A few seconds later I land another 3k flame expulsion and burning breaks 1k on a tick again, this time against the holosmith. Again, yay condi! In the final second before the holosmith goes down he takes about 3.5k condi damage from combined bleeding and burning. But power damage did most of the work here.

On to the druid. He appears to have me on the run, but I am just slowly wearing down the druid's health mostly with a bunch of small <1k condi ticks and power hits. But now we're both low enough health we're susceptible to burst. The druid disengages, presumably to finish me off with CC+bow burst, so I LoS using the pillar and begin casting Gale so I land a stun as soon as I come into view. Apparently, the druid has no stunbreak available as I'm able to run over and down him with a pyrovortex.

Only once during this fight did burning ever break 2k damage on an enemy that wasn't already downed. Meanwhile, I'm dealing more of my damage from power even though I'm actually running the same old sw/f condi build from the pre-2/25 meta. The difference is that I run a glass hybrid amulet (grieving in this case), precisely because condi feels so anemic when you're dealing with power bursts that chunk 1/3-1/2 of your health in an instant!

What else do you guys really need to see here? Power damage is massive and threatening on both sides here, while condi is dealing light damage over time. Capping burn stacks would have done absolutely nothing in this fight. My opponents died playing hug the weaver, but neither of them took anything that could be considered a burst from condition damage.

Meanwhile fails to mention that the weaver destroyed both the holosmith and the druid with 7-9 stacks of burning and 11 stacks of bleed, within 2 seconds, yet complains about power damage being too high (which in some instances i definitely agree), despite that weaver not going down when fighting both one after the other, and actually securing 2 kills in the process.The only thing this does is prove me right. Thanks for that clip man, appreciate it.

If you can't properly interpret what's happening in a video even when it's explained blow by blow I guess all I can say is... Have fun losing in silver?

Good thing I placed rank 69 on the same non meta build I've been playing for a while now. So much for losing in silver.Must be hard creating a video and still not being able to properly tell the audience what exactly was going on the whole time.That engi that you said was mostly brought down with power damage, was a lie. 2.5k burn ticks until most of the burn went away. When the engi leaped on you to do a leap corona burst, you put 2 stacks of burn on him to bring him back up to 3 most likely due to the magma armor skill, then that burst which you said was 4k (looked like a 2.9 to me, watched in HD and everything) put another 3 stacks on him. meanwhile he's still in range to get burn stacks from the magma armor for being in range of you so he climbs to 7, and ends in that 7 stacks of burn with 11 stacks of bleed. on top of it. power didn't do much of the pressure, burn and bleed did. lets do some math.1100 (from bleed) + 2700 (from burn) gives you close to 4k condi damage per tick, either that or my math is off. highly doubt it though, addition is easy. biggest power burst you did that i have seen was 2.9k.As well, you're using grieving. That amulet gives you 1000 power, 1000 condi damage, 500 precision and 500 feroc, so of course your damage bursts are going to be a little high as well. It's also explaining why you're taking a lot more power damage too (although again, I will say that some power damage on some things is a bit too high and should be brought down some due to factors like cooldown, attack speed, etc). So you burst down the engi using condition damage with 2 conditions, both bleed and burn. When condition damage is supposed to be slow damage over time.After that engi was downed, you were able to put another burn burst onto his downed body, bringing your burn stacks on him all the way up to around 13, netting you 5.4k burn damage per tick.With the druid, I seen much of the same thing. some 2.9k bursts from power damage, but mostly you had him pressured with conditions. He cleared conditions often but you were able to put them right back on him. Thanks to the added power and crit damage from grieving, you were able to keep him pressured with both, but your burn stacks was what really wittled him down, from what i seen keeping a steady 2-3 burns on him minimum (besides near beginning and end when you were kiting toward the pillar). at the end, you kept a 7+ bleeds and 3-5 burns, with some added power damage.Needless to say? one condition bursting 2.5k+ having the ability to pile on you as easy as something like bleed, a lower damage per stack condition, is what I have been talking here in hopes of seeing condition damage be put in a place design-wise where it was healthier and less burst oriented.Not sure how many times I must reiterate as well, but some things in regards to power damage still need adjusting down, but condition damage is supposed to be a damage over time mechanic, not 1/3 of your health done over a second's time mechanic. The small power damage that accompanies condition damage also adds on to the condition damage, just noting in case you weren't aware.And nice trying to insult me with that silver comment, i'd insult you back that would send you back to where your place is but someone might cry, get all hurt, and report me because anet likes to punish one and not the other, despite their insults being rather apparent.

If you're rank 69 then I don't need to explain to you why your interpretation of what happened here is nonsense. But I especially enjoyed the part where you included the massive burn I was able to throw down once my opponents were downed. Extra credit on that one.

That won't work on me. watch the video again. as many times as you need to. :)

The fact is my opponents not only didn't die because of condi burst, they weren't even pressured by condi damage at all. Condi did exactly what you seem to think it should: damage over time.

Further the reason I play glass hybrid is because it's very hard to pressure with condi alone. It's too easily countered. Is this not what you want?

Lastly, please show me where a stack limit on burning could have made a difference here. When they were in down state I guess?

Cmon man. I love playing condi as glass hybrid. It's what condi whiners ask for. A stack limit on burning is just a stupid idea.

Yeah nope. condi pressure was a lot of the pressure, especially when bursting down that engineer with 7 stacks of burn and 11 stacks of bleed, ticking around 4k hp per second and over the course of 2 seconds was downed rather quickly because within his 6 seconds (more actually) waiting time to exit forge to clear 2-3 conditions, he was unable to clear those said conditions.I'm fairly confident you had trouble reading it before so I'll reiterate again: conditions should not be doing 1/3 of your health pool per second over the course of whatever time they remain on. period. period. and another period.P.S. period.

So how much is too much? Worldly impacts for 12.5k, DH firing off ranged attacks for 9k? That's all good. But landing multiple skills over a few seconds and then having it deal 4k is too much?

So what do we cap it to? 1k?

Proof you have trouble reading, as I've stated multiple times that power damage for some things is also way too high.With that, we can call this conversation over, unless you decide to wallow and continue with the nonsense. Nothing anyone says can get to you, but that's a you problem. Take care of that for future reference.

It's okay. I wouldn't want to defend a fail proposal like condi stack caps either. Power is fine and so is condi in my book. Loving the feel of PvP now. But I liked it before 2/25 as well, so maybe I'm just lacking the proper sensitivity.

[Tycura.1982]

My take is Condi is typically a crutch for players who don't hit their power skills well. Condi is generally applied by AoE and multi hit skills which are a lot more forgiving. You didn't have to play Condi weaver well pre-feb you only had to stand next to someone with Primordial and Lava Skin to be somewhat effective. Same deal for Scourge but with shades. Same deal for Condi Mesmers pre-feb just let the staff/scepter ambushes do the work with sharper images. Same deal for Condi trap ranger. Same deal for repeater on thief

But you guys are right it doesn't scale into higher play since people know how to cleanse. Condi thief frontloads all its condi onto steal? Shake It Off says henlo. But keep Condi in the low tiers because when it actually is busted it makes the game very boring.