Persisting Flames and Condition Damage

[RyanThomas.4182]

Currently Persisting Flames gives a 1% bonus to direct damage. Should it also give a bonus to condition damage? I've been playing open world Sword/X condi weaver and I'm trying to figure out which fire grandmaster is most useful.

• Persisting flames makes fire fields last longer which is great for getting more leap finishers, which gives more fire auras, which can be transmuted if you're using focus. You can also blast them for might, which is useful.• Pyromancer's Puissance seems like it was meant for supporting teammates. The explosion isn't worth all the might you lose, imo• Blinding ashes doesn't seem great in pve. Enemies dangerous enough to kill you tend to have break bars anyway, and I'd rather rely on active defenses like dodging.

So should Persisting Flames give a bonus to condi damage as well, to make it useful to condi builds, or am I overlooking something about the other fire grandmasters that would make it a great choice for open world condi weaver?

[AliamRationem.5172]

@RyanThomas.4182 said:Currently Persisting Flames gives a 1% bonus to direct damage. Should it also give a bonus to condition damage? I've been playing open world Sword/X condi weaver and I'm trying to figure out which fire grandmaster is most useful.

• Persisting flames makes fire fields last longer which is great for getting more leap finishers, which gives more fire auras, which can be transmuted if you're using focus. You can also blast them for might, which is useful.• Pyromancer's Puissance seems like it was meant for supporting teammates. The explosion isn't worth all the might you lose, imo• Blinding ashes doesn't seem great in pve. Enemies dangerous enough to kill you tend to have break bars anyway, and I'd rather rely on active defenses like dodging.

So should Persisting Flames give a bonus to condi damage as well, to make it useful to condi builds, or am I overlooking something about the other fire grandmasters that would make it a great choice for open world condi weaver?

I suspect they didn't do this because they were tunnel visioning raid dps. The intent was to boost power damage because condi outperformed it. Why have a condi grandmaster trait for offense? Totally unnecessary!

[RyanThomas.4182]

Fire in general seems like such a confused traitline. You have the major traits burning precision and burning rage which are great for condi builds, plus you get reduced cooldowns on fire attunement stills. But then you have +150 power and +10% damage to burning targets in minor traits which seem completely useless to condi builds.

Wish they'd merge these power-based minor bonuses into major traits that power builds use, and then change the minor effects to be things that have utility for either power or condition damage builds. Something like "Passively might when you have a fire aura active" would be great, since without that the only use for fire aura seems to be transmuting them or just using them to trigger other aura traits. Unfortunately that wouldn't do much for raiders who already have 25 might all the time...

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

It is consistent with most of classes. You generally have more "power modificators" even in minor traits than condition modificators, in traitlines.

But that's right we don't really have condi grandmaster trait for damage.Even the +2sec fire field we don't have that much fire fields that pulse Burnings, you have the focus skill and then the dual attack on staff. Edit, and burning speed, it's not that bad afterall, but I regret sword doesn't have this.Or you take Pyromacer's puissance; you have a 4-8sec burning at the cost of 10 mights.

[RyanThomas.4182]

I was playing around with the idea of taking Aristocracy runes which gives 5 stacks of might on inflicting weakness.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Rune_of_the_AristocracyWe have a minor trait that inflicts weakness on dual attacks, so that could be a good way to quickly build up might and detonate it. You could still get some decent burn duration by taking smoldering sigil + fire meat chili. Of course, the flame explosion really sucks right now and it seems like an afterthought compared to the main purpose of the trait, which is to grant might to your allies.

Seems like Anet needs to figure out what the heck this trait is for. Is it a support trait? If so, why does it reduce your own might uptime, when literally no other class has a support skill that reduces their own uptime of the boon they're trying to spread. Quickbrand, Alacrigade, Chrono, and Druid don't lose their own boons when supporting their allies. So is this a damaging trait? No, because this pathetic explosion isn't worth losing 300 Power and 300 Condition damage.

Honestly Anet if you read the forums, please pick a direction for this trait and make it good at that. I'd say remove the explosion and just make it pulse might to your allies without stripping your own might. That would make it a good skill to take when trying to cover might for a pug group or world boss/meta event stuff. Persisting flames can be buffed to be a 1% bonus to power and condition damage, which would make it a good choice for coordinated groups where there's another source of might. It would also be a solid choice in open world for power or condi builds.

[AliamRationem.5172]

@"RyanThomas.4182" said:I was playing around with the idea of taking Aristocracy runes which gives 5 stacks of might on inflicting weakness.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Rune_of_the_AristocracyWe have a minor trait that inflicts weakness on dual attacks, so that could be a good way to quickly build up might and detonate it. You could still get some decent burn duration by taking smoldering sigil + fire meat chili. Of course, the flame explosion really sucks right now and it seems like an afterthought compared to the main purpose of the trait, which is to grant might to your allies.

Seems like Anet needs to figure out what the heck this trait is for. Is it a support trait? If so, why does it reduce your own might uptime, when literally no other class has a support skill that reduces their own uptime of the boon they're trying to spread. Quickbrand, Alacrigade, Chrono, and Druid don't lose their own boons when supporting their allies. So is this a damaging trait? No, because this pathetic explosion isn't worth losing 300 Power and 300 Condition damage.

Honestly Anet if you read the forums, please pick a direction for this trait and make it good at that. I'd say remove the explosion and just make it pulse might to your allies without stripping your own might. That would make it a good skill to take when trying to cover might for a pug group or world boss/meta event stuff. Persisting flames can be buffed to be a 1% bonus to power and condition damage, which would make it a good choice for coordinated groups where there's another source of might. It would also be a solid choice in open world for power or condi builds.

I like the explosion, but I see no reason we should be giving up might for it. Just remove the might loss. Now it's a strong solo play trait which allows you to easily stack 25 might in fire attunement, but it's also an okay support trait allowing you to share some of that might with allies. The flame expulsion burn isn't very good, but the burst from the explosion is actually decent. I think this would be a great trait, honestly.

[RyanThomas.4182]

Hm I would love to have explosion + might + might sharing without having to give up anything, but I doubt Anet would be so generous haha. Maybe in another 2 years they will revisit the trait once more...

[Einlanzer.1627]

@"RyanThomas.4182" said:Fire in general seems like such a confused traitline. You have the major traits burning precision and burning rage which are great for condi builds, plus you get reduced cooldowns on fire attunement stills. But then you have +150 power and +10% damage to burning targets in minor traits which seem completely useless to condi builds.

Wish they'd merge these power-based minor bonuses into major traits that power builds use, and then change the minor effects to be things that have utility for either power or condition damage builds. Something like "Passively might when you have a fire aura active" would be great, since without that the only use for fire aura seems to be transmuting them or just using them to trigger other aura traits. Unfortunately that wouldn't do much for raiders who already have 25 might all the time...

This is because fire is intended to be good for both power and condition damage, which I can appreciate. The attunements should be good at more than one thing. Earth has condition damage and heavy defense. Water has support, healing, control, and vulnerability. Air has direct damage and utility support. I actually wish they'd take the hybridization even further and, for example, split healing between water and air.

[jpsssss.7530]

Pyromancer's Puissance is insane on weaver, granted i'm playing a power-ish weaver (cele armor/trinkets, marauder weapons and scrapper runes).

[Euclid.2517]

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@"RyanThomas.4182" said:Currently Persisting Flames gives a 1% bonus to direct damage. Should it also give a bonus to condition damage? I've been playing open world Sword/X condi weaver and I'm trying to figure out which fire grandmaster is most useful.

• Persisting flames makes fire fields last longer which is great for getting more leap finishers, which gives more fire auras, which can be transmuted if you're using focus. You can also blast them for might, which is useful.• Pyromancer's Puissance seems like it was meant for supporting teammates. The explosion isn't worth all the might you lose, imo• Blinding ashes doesn't seem great in pve. Enemies dangerous enough to kill you tend to have break bars anyway, and I'd rather rely on active defenses like dodging.

So should Persisting Flames give a bonus to condi damage as well, to make it useful to condi builds, or am I overlooking something about the other fire grandmasters that would make it a great choice for open world condi weaver?

I suspect they didn't do this because they were tunnel visioning raid dps. The intent was to boost power damage because condi outperformed it. Why have a condi grandmaster trait for offense? Totally unnecessary!

Why shouldn't they? Because of last patch condition weaver has 700 less benchmark damage while being most complicated rotation in game. I think they tuned down "Primordial Stance" and "Searing Slash" so that condi weaver won't become stronger due to "Persisting flame", but numerically condi weaver is weaker than before.

[volca.7234]

Persisting Flames does boost your condi dmg by boosting the the amount of burning you do with your field
you gain average 2 stacks extra with each field you drop, the skill is balanced to be hybrid power and condi balanced already no need to change it at all not to mention how it opens more field combo potential for you

[AliamRationem.5172]

@"volca.7234" said:Persisting Flames does boost your condi dmg by boosting the the amount of burning you do with your field

you gain average 2 stacks extra with each field you drop, the skill is balanced to be hybrid power and condi balanced already no need to change it at all not to mention how it opens more field combo potential for you

That's a pretty weak advantage compared to the benefit to power. This is token "hybrid" at best. The other damage-oriented grandmaster is more beneficial to power as well. They should really consider adding some condi love to one or the other. Also, get rid of the stupid might removal. There's really no call for that at all.

[volca.7234]

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@"volca.7234" said:Persisting Flames does boost your condi dmg by boosting the the amount of burning you do with your field

you gain average 2 stacks extra with each field you drop, the skill is balanced to be hybrid power and condi balanced already no need to change it at all not to mention how it opens more field combo potential for you

That's a pretty weak advantage compared to the benefit to power. This is token "hybrid" at best. The other damage-oriented grandmaster is more beneficial to power as well. They should really consider adding some condi love to one or the other. Also, get rid of the stupid might removal. There's really no call for that at all.

I would actually say that this trait is more condi orientated than power orientated, you can calc the condi total coeff asC=[(0.155xC)+131]x(stacks of burn No. x burn Duration)C meaning condi dmg

now what a 10% extra condi dmg be like isC={[0.155x(1.1xC)]+131}x(stacks of burn No. x burn Duration)But an extra 2 sec meaning extra 2 stacks of burning isC=[(0.155xC)+131]x[(stacks of burn No. +2) x burn Duration]

Its super clear that a total 2 extra stacks are much more preferable to a 10% dmg because that dmg increase will be undercut by the burning condi coeff anyway

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

You forget you apply burning with a lot of others skills and traits, not only fire field : Sunspot, burning precision, GoEP, primordial stance, fire shield, flame uprising (no burning pulse) , pyrovortex, lava skin, etc, etc.

[volca.7234]

@"Zhaid Zhem.6508" said:You forget you apply burning with a lot of others skills and traits, not only fire field : Sunspot, burning precision, GoEP, primordial stance, fire shield, flame uprising (no burning pulse) , lava skin, etc, etc.3 things:

1-Yes it doesn't carry over to other skills other than fields BUT most skills that cause burn ARE fields

2- lava skin actually activates Persisting Flames up to 5 stacks aka 5% dmg, but doesn't extend in duration, a thing wiki doesnt tell u only being dumb and obsessive like me does lmao which is why i white knight this trait so hard, it is the hands down one of the most fun and interesting traits in the entire game.

3- One of the fun things this trait play into is underwater trident skill "Boil" its a fire field that DOESN'T BURN but being a fire field u can squeeze sum burning outta of it by earth trident 1 "Rock Blades" and arcane blasts or might via blast finishers

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

Fields pulsing burn and affected by the trait / others skills and traits applying burnWeaver Sword/focus : flamewall vs, AA, lava skin, pyrovortex, flame uprising, twin strike, primordial stance, GoEP or GoStorms, signet of fire, fire transmute, sunspot/burning rage, burning precisionWeaver sword/dagger : none vs, AA, lava skin, pyrovortex, flame uprising, twin strike, primordial stance, GoEP or GoStorms, signet of fire, ring of fire, sunspot/burning rage, burning precision.Weaver dagger/focus : flamewall, burning speed vs, drake's breath, plasma burst, ashen blast, primordial stance, GoEP or GoStorms, signet of fire, fire transmute, sunspot/burning rage, burning precision.Weaver dagger/dagger: burning speed vs, drake's breath, plasma burst, ashen blast, primordial stance, GoEP or GoStorms, signet of fire, ring of fire, sunspot/burning rage, burning precision.Weaver staff : burning retreat, pyroclastic blast vs, flame burst, primordial stance, GoEP or GoStorms, signet of fire, sunspot/burning rage, burning precision.tempest dagger/warhorn : burning speed, wildfire vs, drake's breath, fire overload, GoEP or GoStorms, signet of fire, sunspot/burning rage, burning precision.

I won't also note stacks and duration, or count conjured weapons, etc, but no, not "most skills that cause burn ARE fields", not all fields pulse burn or are affected by the trait neither

[volca.7234]

@"Zhaid Zhem.6508" said:Fields pulsing burn and affected by the trait / others skills and traits applying burnWeaver Sword/focus : flamewall vs, AA, lava skin, pyrovortex, flame uprising, twin strike, primordial stance, GoEP or GoStorms, signet of fire, fire transmute, sunspot/burning rage, burning precisionWeaver sword/dagger : none vs, AA, lava skin, pyrovortex, flame uprising, twin strike, primordial stance, GoEP or GoStorms, signet of fire, ring of fire, sunspot/burning rage, burning precision.Weaver dagger/focus : flamewall, burning speed vs, drake's breath, plasma burst, ashen blast, primordial stance, GoEP or GoStorms, signet of fire, fire transmute, sunspot/burning rage, burning precision.Weaver dagger/dagger: burning speed vs, drake's breath, plasma burst, ashen blast, primordial stance, GoEP or GoStorms, signet of fire, ring of fire, sunspot/burning rage, burning precision.Weaver staff : burning retreat, pyroclastic blast vs, flame burst, primordial stance, GoEP or GoStorms, signet of fire, sunspot/burning rage, burning precision.tempest dagger/warhorn : burning speed, wildfire vs, drake's breath, fire overload, GoEP or GoStorms, signet of fire, sunspot/burning rage, burning precision.

I won't also note stacks and duration, or count conjured weapons, etc, but no, not "most skills that cause burn ARE fields", not all fields pulse burn or are affected by the trait neither

You forgot about flame uprising in sword which double in duration by PF trait, also you mention skills with only 1 stack of burning that last less than 5 sec "like ashen blast" which 2 stacks of any fields is just better dmg output because even if the field only does 4sec a stack, 2stacks that an 8sec burn, also just because it doesnt pulse doesnt mean it doesnt burn yeh make people move over it more than once or combo projectile into itand yes this skill doesn't touch utility skills which is good for balance, balance being the reason this skill is not a boring 10% extra condi dmg in the first place.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

It is better because you have no better option, but is +2sec on fire field better than a +10% condi damage !? Not so sure.

Flame uprising doesn't pulse burning. + you have no projectil finisher.

[volca.7234]

@Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:It is better because you have no better option, but is +2sec on fire field better than a +10% condi damage !? Not so sure.

Flame uprising doesn't pulse burning. + you have no projectil finisher.

tru tru sry for that, sword applying PF both in lava skin and flame uprising as purely power mechanism not condi is such an interesting side to this traitas for finishers arcane blast exist