Warrior Buildcraft Issue

[Ovark.2514]

Why do all the most interesting synergies of warrior (and a lot of classes for that matter) from a buildcraft perspective hinge on CCing the opponent? For instance: Rune of Aristocracy, Body blow, Unsuspecting foe (to use with valk ammy or something), etc... I would like there to actually be traits that encourage a variety of play styles. Disables are degenerate and hold back the game mode; the less they are encouraged the better. CC is it's own reward

[CutesySylveon.8290]

Warrior relies on CC much more than other classes, most burst setups rely on locking an opponent down because you're unlikely to do any meaningful damage without it, they're either too telegraphed or straight up root you into a long cast in the case of Hundred Blades. CCing an enemy as a warrior has absolutely no reward tied into it since you're lucky to hit double digit damage now, it's purely meant to setup the real reward; being able to do damage with other skills.

[Ovark.2514]

@"CutesySylveon.8290" said:Warrior relies on CC much more than other classes, most burst setups rely on locking an opponent down because you're unlikely to do any meaningful damage without it, they're either too telegraphed or straight up root you into a long cast in the case of Hundred Blades. CCing an enemy as a warrior has absolutely no reward tied into it since you're lucky to hit double digit damage now, it's purely meant to setup the real reward; being able to do damage with other skills.

When I say "CC is it's own reward" What I mean is that CC interrupts an enemy's attack, impairs their ability to move, allows the player to get 1 or more free hits in, allows their team to get that many hits in, allows the player or the team to escape if necessary, allows the player or team to heal if necessary. There are more but I think you get it. I'm saying there is no need to have traits which encourage the use of CC. Players will build that into their build ANYWAY because of how useful they are. Edit: Typo

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

I play a CC spambunker Spellbreaker. Tempting as the CC traits are, we don't use any besides Sundering Mace because we don't want to lose any sustain. U rite when you say CC is its own reward, but staying alive to spam it as much as possible beats the utility value of stuff like body blow + aristocracy runes.They only really have synergy on paper. In games you just melt to conditions and miss every other attack to blinds and just die.

CC being its own reward didn't start this anyway. When CC attacks had damage attached, pretty much nobody played this way.

Like @CutesySylveon.8290 said, you used to be able to use CC to set up for big damage, but it was highly telegraphed and easy to counter. The functionality of the skills that used to do this is the same, but the damage is overall much lower. Basically the risk is still there(Even more so since nearly all physical DPS is zerkers now) but the damage reward isn't.

Therefore i'd say damage going down across the board is the real culprit. Blame that if you find this playstyle boring to play as or against.If you want less CC spam and bunker, then give us damage back. Stop the nerf train. This applies to all classes.

[Swagg.9236]

@Ovark.2514 said:

@"CutesySylveon.8290" said:Warrior relies on CC much more than other classes, most burst setups rely on locking an opponent down because you're unlikely to do any meaningful damage without it, they're either too telegraphed or straight up root you into a long cast in the case of Hundred Blades. CCing an enemy as a warrior has absolutely no reward tied into it since you're lucky to hit double digit damage now, it's purely meant to setup the real reward; being able to do damage with other skills.

When I say "CC is it's own reward" What I mean is that CC interrupts an enemy's attack, impairs their ability to move, allows the player to get 1 or more free hits in, allows their team to get that many hits in, allows the player or the team to escape if necessary, allows the player or team to heal if necessary. There are more but I think you get it. I'm saying there is no need to have traits which encourage the use of CC. Players will build that into their build ANYWAY because of how useful they are. Edit: Typo

The problem with GW2 is that none of that is good enough anymore. Passive and instant abilities generally cushion so much of every PvP encounter, that players have to torrent skills onto a target in order to bring it down (not that facerolling is hard, but it's inherent in GW2's design: spam to win). Combine this with the fact that there are no resources to really lose (aside maybe from health, which can be regained or simulated very easily) whenever a target is interrupted, and you're really only left with the achievement of having, in most circumstances, denied a target of a fat 5% of their basic damage or bunker rotation. So then CC was slapped onto every other skill just to keep people still enough to kill them. However, after the damage nerf, CC chains became even more oppressive and necessary just because it took enough more to bring any given build down.

I'm not saying that ANY of these elements are foundations of good game design, but rather than they've all combined together in both continuity and coexistence in order to create basically just 1 or 2 types of builds for the entirety of GW2, regardless of which class you pick. Warrior just ended up as the CC-heavy, rushdown ungabunga guy compared to the other option of off-screen Mesmer/Thief burst.

[Ovark.2514]

@Swagg.9236 said:

@Ovark.2514 said:

@"CutesySylveon.8290" said:Warrior relies on CC much more than other classes, most burst setups rely on locking an opponent down because you're unlikely to do any meaningful damage without it, they're either too telegraphed or straight up root you into a long cast in the case of Hundred Blades. CCing an enemy as a warrior has absolutely no reward tied into it since you're lucky to hit double digit damage now, it's purely meant to setup the real reward; being able to do damage with other skills.

When I say "CC is it's own reward" What I mean is that CC interrupts an enemy's attack, impairs their ability to move, allows the player to get 1 or more free hits in, allows their team to get that many hits in, allows the player or the team to escape if necessary, allows the player or team to heal if necessary. There are more but I think you get it. I'm saying there is no need to have traits which encourage the use of CC. Players will build that into their build ANYWAY because of how useful they are. Edit: Typo

The problem with GW2 is that none of that is good enough anymore. Passive and instant abilities generally cushion so much of every PvP encounter, that players have to torrent skills onto a target in order to bring it down (not that facerolling is hard, but it's inherent in GW2's design: spam to win). Combine this with the fact that there are no resources to really lose (aside maybe from health, which can be regained or simulated very easily) whenever a target is interrupted, and you're really only left with the achievement of having, in most circumstances, denied a target of a fat 5% of their basic damage or bunker rotation. So then CC was slapped onto every other skill just to keep people still enough to kill them. However, after the damage nerf, CC chains became even more oppressive and necessary just because it took enough more to bring any given build down.

I'm not saying that ANY of these elements are foundations of good game design, but rather than they've all combined together in both continuity and coexistence in order to create basically just 1 or 2 types of builds for the entirety of GW2, regardless of which class you pick. Warrior just ended up as the CC-heavy, rushdown ungabunga guy compared to the other option of off-screen Mesmer/Thief burst.

Good point. I imagined that the reason CC became so incredibly prolific after the big nerf is that time-to-kill increased so much that players simply had more time to endure CC. What you said, however is far more accurate of a picture. Players don't get "worn down" like they did in vanilla because if you give them even a second they will heal themselves. CC spam seems to be the only way to kill stuff short of 1-shotting (which is kinda hard these days). So what do you think is a better solution: Reduce healing by a lot or reduce the tools players have access to?

[Swagg.9236]

@Ovark.2514 said:

@Swagg.9236 said:

@Ovark.2514 said:

@"CutesySylveon.8290" said:Warrior relies on CC much more than other classes, most burst setups rely on locking an opponent down because you're unlikely to do any meaningful damage without it, they're either too telegraphed or straight up root you into a long cast in the case of Hundred Blades. CCing an enemy as a warrior has absolutely no reward tied into it since you're lucky to hit double digit damage now, it's purely meant to setup the real reward; being able to do damage with other skills.

When I say "CC is it's own reward" What I mean is that CC interrupts an enemy's attack, impairs their ability to move, allows the player to get 1 or more free hits in, allows their team to get that many hits in, allows the player or the team to escape if necessary, allows the player or team to heal if necessary. There are more but I think you get it. I'm saying there is no need to have traits which encourage the use of CC. Players will build that into their build ANYWAY because of how useful they are. Edit: Typo

The problem with GW2 is that none of that is good enough anymore. Passive and instant abilities generally cushion so much of every PvP encounter, that players have to torrent skills onto a target in order to bring it down (not that facerolling is hard, but it's inherent in GW2's design: spam to win). Combine this with the fact that there are no resources to really lose (aside maybe from health, which can be regained or simulated very easily) whenever a target is interrupted, and you're really only left with the achievement of having, in most circumstances, denied a target of a fat 5% of their basic damage or bunker rotation. So then CC was slapped onto every other skill just to keep people still enough to kill them. However, after the damage nerf, CC chains became even more oppressive and necessary just because it took enough more to bring any given build down.

I'm not saying that ANY of these elements are foundations of good game design, but rather than they've all combined together in both continuity and coexistence in order to create basically just 1 or 2 types of builds for the entirety of GW2, regardless of which class you pick. Warrior just ended up as the CC-heavy, rushdown ungabunga guy compared to the other option of off-screen Mesmer/Thief burst.

Good point. I imagined that the reason CC became so incredibly prolific after the big nerf is that time-to-kill increased so much that players simply had more time to endure CC. What you said, however is far more accurate of a picture. Players don't get "worn down" like they did in vanilla because if you give them even a second they will heal themselves. CC spam seems to be the only way to kill stuff short of 1-shotting (which is kinda hard these days). So what do you think is a better solution: Reduce healing by a lot or reduce the tools players have access to?

Yeah, it's not so much that health itself is "worn down," but rather it's a process of burning through everyone's passive/instant panic buttons along with all of the evasion that every player generally does while attacking. If you want an actual solution: remove all evasion periods from attacks; make sure everybody has at least one non-target-dependent, movement skill on a weapon bar with a semi-low cooldown (6-10s baseline), then basically just cull all skill bars from 16-30 skills per player down to something like 8.

When you have 16-30+ skills that aren't balanced by anything but cooldowns, you're going to get a vomit stream of spam no matter how "intelligently" anyone plays the game. People are encouraged to churn out skill activation as often as possible because the reward almost always outweighs the risk by magnitudes; and this dynamic only slants even deeper toward effortless reward as the buildcrafting enters into the metagame territory. You can't have every class to literally everything the game has to offer. You need to break up the "one man army" archetype that just rules every PvP interaction into several actual roles. Unique movement skills can help with this, but ultimately, you need to bring risk back to damage so that victory starts to hinge on coordination and timing rather than repeatedly grinding a muscle-memory, PvE rotation into a target until your cooldowns eventually hit a cycle that benefits you more than an opponent.

Now, that's not Guild Wars 2, but then again, Guild Wars 2 doesn't feature a well-grounded game design. So, up to you: get a better game that resembles nothing like GW2 or get more GW2.

[Ovark.2514]

@Swagg.9236 said:

@Ovark.2514 said:

@Swagg.9236 said:

@Ovark.2514 said:

@"CutesySylveon.8290" said:Warrior relies on CC much more than other classes, most burst setups rely on locking an opponent down because you're unlikely to do any meaningful damage without it, they're either too telegraphed or straight up root you into a long cast in the case of Hundred Blades. CCing an enemy as a warrior has absolutely no reward tied into it since you're lucky to hit double digit damage now, it's purely meant to setup the real reward; being able to do damage with other skills.

When I say "CC is it's own reward" What I mean is that CC interrupts an enemy's attack, impairs their ability to move, allows the player to get 1 or more free hits in, allows their team to get that many hits in, allows the player or the team to escape if necessary, allows the player or team to heal if necessary. There are more but I think you get it. I'm saying there is no need to have traits which encourage the use of CC. Players will build that into their build ANYWAY because of how useful they are. Edit: Typo

The problem with GW2 is that none of that is good enough anymore. Passive and instant abilities generally cushion so much of every PvP encounter, that players have to torrent skills onto a target in order to bring it down (not that facerolling is hard, but it's inherent in GW2's design: spam to win). Combine this with the fact that there are no resources to really lose (aside maybe from health, which can be regained or simulated very easily) whenever a target is interrupted, and you're really only left with the achievement of having, in most circumstances, denied a target of a fat 5% of their basic damage or bunker rotation. So then CC was slapped onto every other skill just to keep people still enough to kill them. However, after the damage nerf, CC chains became even more oppressive and necessary just because it took enough more to bring any given build down.

I'm not saying that ANY of these elements are foundations of good game design, but rather than they've all combined together in both continuity and coexistence in order to create basically just 1 or 2 types of builds for the entirety of GW2, regardless of which class you pick. Warrior just ended up as the CC-heavy, rushdown ungabunga guy compared to the other option of off-screen Mesmer/Thief burst.

Good point. I imagined that the reason CC became so incredibly prolific after the big nerf is that time-to-kill increased so much that players simply had more time to endure CC. What you said, however is far more accurate of a picture. Players don't get "worn down" like they did in vanilla because if you give them even a second they will heal themselves. CC spam seems to be the only way to kill stuff short of 1-shotting (which is kinda hard these days). So what do you think is a better solution: Reduce healing by a lot or reduce the tools players have access to?

Now, that's not Guild Wars 2, but then again, Guild Wars 2 doesn't feature a well-grounded game design. So, up to you: get a better game that resembles nothing like GW2 or get more GW2.

It's incredibly unfortunate. I wish they'd hire you. Heck, I'd do it for free. Though, kinda hard to justify that when I'm saving for a house. . . :P

[felix.2386]

Warrior has basically 0 build craftno matter how you build it it play the same and serve the same propose.there's only big category of it's dps or healer tank.evey single dps build since 2012 play the same and serve the samedoesn't matter core, berserker or spellbreaker, it's all on point, greatsword with shield and dodge and land burst skillwarrior's trait system might be non existent and you wouldn't notice.

and every single support tank since 2012 was healshout.

[Ovark.2514]

@felix.2386 said:Warrior has basically 0 build craftno matter how you build it it play the same and serve the same propose.there's only big category of it's dps or healer tank.evey single dps build since 2012 play the same and serve the samedoesn't matter core, berserker or spellbreaker, it's all on point, greatsword with shield and dodge and land burst skillwarrior's trait system might be non existent and you wouldn't notice.

and every single support tank since 2012 was healshout.

Sad but true. I always wished anet would make other weapons and choices more appealing but whatyagonnado

[felix.2386]

@Ovark.2514 said:

@felix.2386 said:Warrior has basically 0 build craftno matter how you build it it play the same and serve the same propose.there's only big category of it's dps or healer tank.evey single dps build since 2012 play the same and serve the samedoesn't matter core, berserker or spellbreaker, it's all on point, greatsword with shield and dodge and land burst skillwarrior's trait system might be non existent and you wouldn't notice.

and every single support tank since 2012 was healshout.

Sad but true. I always wished anet would make other weapons and choices more appealing but whatyagonnado

Not only that no matter what trait you take, you will be playing the same style and same fashion, it is literally what weapon you pick that matters.nothing from trait that changes your play style, like mesmer be giving invulernability upon signet cast, or rev gaining dome on heal skill,the best it has is gaining some extra damage on existing skills, which result in the same exact play style..

Also most traits are completely unviable, look at Strength and discpline, it is the same exact traits in any build that takes them since years, because the rest are just garbage.every single damage build takes 233 in discpline, and take 322 in strength, anything else are unplayable and unviable. even if they are viable, the play style change is minimum. gaining some boon and stat buff here and there..lilterally is what every single warrior trait does..

[Vancho.8750]

@felix.2386 said:

@Ovark.2514 said:

@felix.2386 said:Warrior has basically 0 build craftno matter how you build it it play the same and serve the same propose.there's only big category of it's dps or healer tank.evey single dps build since 2012 play the same and serve the samedoesn't matter core, berserker or spellbreaker, it's all on point, greatsword with shield and dodge and land burst skillwarrior's trait system might be non existent and you wouldn't notice.

and every single support tank since 2012 was healshout.

Sad but true. I always wished anet would make other weapons and choices more appealing but whatyagonnado

Not only that no matter what trait you take, you will be playing the same style and same fashion, it is literally what weapon you pick that matters.nothing from trait that changes your play style, like mesmer be giving invulernability upon signet cast, or rev gaining dome on heal skill,the best it has is gaining some extra damage on existing skills, which result in the same exact play style..

Also most traits are completely unviable, look at Strength and discpline, it is the same exact traits in any build that takes them since years, because the rest are just garbage.every single damage build takes 233 in discpline, and take 322 in strength, anything else are unplayable and unviable. even if they are viable, the play style change is minimum. gaining some boon and stat buff here and there..lilterally is what every single warrior trait does..Don't forget that if you want to be on a fighting build you have to run discipline, condition or power doesn't matter, 5 second swap and adrenaline management is way too important for warrior to function, so you are stuck with this traitline forever and you only get to change the other 2.

[felix.2386]

@Vancho.8750 said:

@felix.2386 said:

@Ovark.2514 said:

@felix.2386 said:Warrior has basically 0 build craftno matter how you build it it play the same and serve the same propose.there's only big category of it's dps or healer tank.evey single dps build since 2012 play the same and serve the samedoesn't matter core, berserker or spellbreaker, it's all on point, greatsword with shield and dodge and land burst skillwarrior's trait system might be non existent and you wouldn't notice.

and every single support tank since 2012 was healshout.

Sad but true. I always wished anet would make other weapons and choices more appealing but whatyagonnado

Not only that no matter what trait you take, you will be playing the same style and same fashion, it is literally what weapon you pick that matters.nothing from trait that changes your play style, like mesmer be giving invulernability upon signet cast, or rev gaining dome on heal skill,the best it has is gaining some extra damage on existing skills, which result in the same exact play style..

Also most traits are completely unviable, look at Strength and discpline, it is the same exact traits in any build that takes them since years, because the rest are just garbage.every single damage build takes 233 in discpline, and take 322 in strength, anything else are unplayable and unviable. even if they are viable, the play style change is minimum. gaining some boon and stat buff here and there..lilterally is what every single warrior trait does..Don't forget that if you want to be on a fighting build you have to run discipline, condition or power doesn't matter, 5 second swap and adrenaline management is way too important for warrior to function, so you are stuck with this traitline forever and you only get to change the other 2.

doesnt matter heal or power or condi or anything.it's all warrior's sprint, brawler recovery and burst mastery 2 3 3 discpline.in every single build that was ever meta or semi meta.

[Vancho.8750]

@felix.2386 said:

@Vancho.8750 said:

@felix.2386 said:

@Ovark.2514 said:

@felix.2386 said:Warrior has basically 0 build craftno matter how you build it it play the same and serve the same propose.there's only big category of it's dps or healer tank.evey single dps build since 2012 play the same and serve the samedoesn't matter core, berserker or spellbreaker, it's all on point, greatsword with shield and dodge and land burst skillwarrior's trait system might be non existent and you wouldn't notice.

and every single support tank since 2012 was healshout.

Sad but true. I always wished anet would make other weapons and choices more appealing but whatyagonnado

Not only that no matter what trait you take, you will be playing the same style and same fashion, it is literally what weapon you pick that matters.nothing from trait that changes your play style, like mesmer be giving invulernability upon signet cast, or rev gaining dome on heal skill,the best it has is gaining some extra damage on existing skills, which result in the same exact play style..

Also most traits are completely unviable, look at Strength and discpline, it is the same exact traits in any build that takes them since years, because the rest are just garbage.every single damage build takes 233 in discpline, and take 322 in strength, anything else are unplayable and unviable. even if they are viable, the play style change is minimum. gaining some boon and stat buff here and there..lilterally is what every single warrior trait does..Don't forget that if you want to be on a fighting build you have to run discipline, condition or power doesn't matter, 5 second swap and adrenaline management is way too important for warrior to function, so you are stuck with this traitline forever and you only get to change the other 2.

doesnt matter heal or power or condi or anything.it's all warrior's sprint, brawler recovery and burst mastery 2 3 3 discpline.in every single build that was ever meta or semi meta.Even funnier it doesn't matter if its pve,pvp or wvw all builds need discipline, like warrior needs it to function at all.

[Guest]

@"Swagg.9236" said:When you have 16-30+ skills that aren't balanced by anything but cooldowns, you're going to get a vomit stream of spam no matter how "intelligently" anyone plays the game. People are encouraged to churn out skill activation as often as possible because the reward almost always outweighs the risk by magnitudes; and this dynamic only slants even deeper toward effortless reward as the buildcrafting enters into the metagame territory. You can't have every class to literally everything the game has to offer. You need to break up the "one man army" archetype that just rules every PvP interaction into several actual roles. Unique movement skills can help with this, but ultimately, you need to bring risk back to damage so that victory starts to hinge on coordination and timing rather than repeatedly grinding a muscle-memory, PvE rotation into a target until your cooldowns eventually hit a cycle that benefits you more than an opponent.

Funny enough, but this is exactly the reason I feel like Snowball Mayhem is the most balanced, most fun PvP experience in the game. You have 3 classes with 5 skills each plus a sixth based on profession. The roles are clearly defined, integral to the game, adaptable, and play off each other well in an RPS kind of way. The skills can't be spammed and there is strategy and counterplay to almost every move you choose to make. Disclosure: I love SM, and only grudgingly tolerate spvp which has always been too spammy and had too much going on at once for me to enjoy.

[Swagg.9236]

@"Kunzaito.8169" said:

@"Swagg.9236" said:When you have 16-30+ skills that aren't balanced by anything but cooldowns, you're going to get a vomit stream of spam no matter how "intelligently" anyone plays the game. People are encouraged to churn out skill activation as often as possible because the reward almost always outweighs the risk by magnitudes; and this dynamic only slants even deeper toward effortless reward as the buildcrafting enters into the metagame territory. You can't have every class to literally everything the game has to offer. You need to break up the "one man army" archetype that just rules every PvP interaction into several actual roles. Unique movement skills can help with this, but ultimately, you need to bring risk back to damage so that victory starts to hinge on coordination and timing rather than repeatedly grinding a muscle-memory, PvE rotation into a target until your cooldowns eventually hit a cycle that benefits you more than an opponent.

Funny enough, but this is exactly the reason I feel like Snowball Mayhem is the most balanced, most fun PvP experience in the game. You have 3 classes with 5 skills each plus a sixth based on profession. The roles are clearly defined, integral to the game, adaptable, and play off each other well in an RPS kind of way. The skills can't be spammed and there is strategy and counterplay to almost every move you choose to make. Disclosure: I love SM, and only grudgingly tolerate spvp which has always been too spammy and had too much going on at once for me to enjoy.

I imagine that your opinion isn't rare. I remember knowing a lot of people who all more or less agreed with that, myself included. Snowball Mayhem is exactly as you put it: a slugfest between two teams of role-based builds with unique abilities. The reason why roles are so integral to a cooperative gameplay experience is because they put limits on classes. As opposed to the misguided attempt to make everyone able to do everything ala GW2, the restrictions imposed by true roles do two things: they provide focus to combat (roles generally encourage players to do certain things by validating specific actions based on class choice) but due to the very limits that are placed upon certain classes, it allows players to shine the brightest when they somehow manage to overcome certain situations in spite of them. Whether it be a Battlefield infantry unit sniping the head of a helicopter pilot, a TF2 Medic killing a Scout for the last capture node in a round, or a Wildstar healer staying alive as the lone team survivor just long enough to tick down the last few percent on a boss, the limits of roles not only provide guidance for general gameplay, but they make moments like those all the more remarkable and memorable.

GW2 has no real roles, therefore, it's very difficult to get many people interested with a highlight reel of "big plays" when everyone else's "big plays" more or less all look the same.