Remove cripple from scourge.

[Daniel Handler.4816]

Neither the shades nor the utilities should apply cripple.

• They already apply torment, and remove/convert boons. They don't need another cover condition, especially one that impairs movement.
• We are already forced to run tormented off the point to escape the full burst. That is enough "punishment"
• You didn't put cripple on necro wells, why would it be okay for shades?

[Kuya.6495]

As a non necro main, I'm gonna go ahead and say your suggestion is bad.

[Jeknar.6184]

That's exactly the same reason why Deathly Chill is so strong... You have a movement impairing condition on top of a damaging condition. I think the suggestion is fair, but they would have to add somenthing else to compensate. And please don't say there is no need for the compensation as scourges already lost a big deal of their damage potential with the fix on Dhuumfire procs.

I'd say, remove cripple but increase 1 torment stack on the corruption. It increase the damage while being easier to deal with (1 condition instead of 2 and no movement impairing effects other than extra damage from torment if you move)

[Zoltreez.6435]

Necro has the least amount of Mobility in the entire game to the level of almost non existent....

even now we cant realy chase anyone down or go after any of the other classes that decide to kite us or just run away...

and now you even want to remove Cripple ? reeeeeeeeeeeeealy ? yeah no.......... just use one of your 6000 billion of Dash/jump/leap/teleport abilities on your class to get away for that few sec the cripple goes off all the necro can do is basically walk after you lol

you can remove cripple if you give us a low CD long range Dash that does not reguire a target.......

[BurrTheKing.8571]

The amount of cover conditions in general is pretty out of control on several classes. Builds that apply a lot of a single condition feel balanced because while they can do a lot of damage quickly that damage is also easily removed. However, Necro and Mes in particular are able to stack a high amount of highly damaging conditions and cover them with junk like cripple, blind, weakness, or a few stacks of vulnerability or bleed. While many of those conditions are useful, they aren't the thing killing you. The options to fix this I can think up are:

1. Removing the number of cover conditions they can supply.
2. Change the priority of condition removal to focus on damage dealing conditions first.
3. Lessen condition removal game wide while decreasing the damage conditions do game wide. This will make them actually damage over time instead of another form of burst damage.
4. Require another stat to deal effective damage so you can't deal good damage on a tankier ammy. Or maybe lower base condition damage but give them the ability to crit, no new stat needed.

The way conditions are now they are going to always shape the meta. They will either be the meta because they tend to be easier to apply and allow you to be tankier than a power build, or power will have to do insane damage in order to compete. Options 3 and 4 seem like the best options to me. Option 3 would make DoT an actual thing in this game for once, while 4 would in theory just make the two kinds of damage do roughly the same thing but force you to go just as glassy as power if you want big numbers.

[Jeknar.6184]

@BurrTheKing.8571 said:

2. Change the priority of condition removal to focus on damage dealing conditions first.

Then you'll get Perma Immobilized by certain professions, which is just as deadly.

[Fipmip.7219]

@Kuya.6495 said:

@Fipmip.7219 said:

@Kuya.6495 said:As a non necro main, I'm gonna go ahead and say your suggestion is bad.

At least OP stated his reasons for making the change. Why should anyone take you seriously with a stupid one-liner-walk-out-the-door like that?

You seem bothered.

"U mad bro"

good lord

[OriOri.8724]

@BurrTheKing.8571 said:The amount of cover conditions in general is pretty out of control on several classes. Builds that apply a lot of a single condition feel balanced because while they can do a lot of damage quickly that damage is also easily removed. However, Necro and Mes in particular are able to stack a high amount of highly damaging conditions and cover them with junk like cripple, blind, weakness, or a few stacks of vulnerability or bleed. While many of those conditions are useful, they aren't the thing killing you. The options to fix this I can think up are:

1. Removing the number of cover conditions they can supply.
2. Change the priority of condition removal to focus on damage dealing conditions first.
3. Lessen condition removal game wide while decreasing the damage conditions do game wide. This will make them actually damage over time instead of another form of burst damage.
4. Require another stat to deal effective damage so you can't deal good damage on a tankier ammy. Or maybe lower base condition damage but give them the ability to crit, no new stat needed.

The way conditions are now they are going to always shape the meta. They will either be the meta because they tend to be easier to apply and allow you to be tankier than a power build, or power will have to do insane damage in order to compete. Options 3 and 4 seem like the best options to me. Option 3 would make DoT an actual thing in this game for once, while 4 would in theory just make the two kinds of damage do roughly the same thing but force you to go just as glassy as power if you want big numbers.

A "dumb" cleansing hierarchy that always prioritizes damaging conditions first would be just that, dumb. But I agree that we do need a cleansing hierarchy based on how dangerous conditions are. Stuff like immob, burning, confusion should be at the top of the list, with stuff like cripple, slow and low stacks of vuln should be at the bottom.

I am also in full support of reducing the number of cover conditions that some classes can put out, well more specifically reducing the total number of conditions that some classes can pump out easily. Cover conditions are a different problem if its 2 cover conditions on top of 1 damaging condition vs 2 cover conditions on top of 3-4 damaging conditions. This could be reducing cover conitions in some cases, and reducing the number of damaging conditions in other cases.

[BurrTheKing.8571]

@Jeknar.6184 said:

@BurrTheKing.8571 said:

2. Change the priority of condition removal to focus on damage dealing conditions first.

Then you'll get Perma Immobilized by certain professions, which is just as deadly.

Which is why it's not the preferred option, but there's a decent number of traits or skills that break immobilize, or you can teleport away to avoid being chained.

[Unholy Pillager.3791]

@Jeknar.6184 said:

@BurrTheKing.8571 said:

2. Change the priority of condition removal to focus on damage dealing conditions first.

Then you'll get Perma Immobilized by certain professions, which is just as deadly.

There are skills remove movement-impairing conditions without touching damaging conditions.

[Edu.6984]

@BurrTheKing.8571 said:The amount of cover conditions in general is pretty out of control on several classes. Builds that apply a lot of a single condition feel balanced because while they can do a lot of damage quickly that damage is also easily removed. However, Necro and Mes in particular are able to stack a high amount of highly damaging conditions and cover them with junk like cripple, blind, weakness, or a few stacks of vulnerability or bleed. While many of those conditions are useful, they aren't the thing killing you. The options to fix this I can think up are:

1. Removing the number of cover conditions they can supply.
2. Change the priority of condition removal to focus on damage dealing conditions first.
3. Lessen condition removal game wide while decreasing the damage conditions do game wide. This will make them actually damage over time instead of another form of burst damage.
4. Require another stat to deal effective damage so you can't deal good damage on a tankier ammy. Or maybe lower base condition damage but give them the ability to crit, no new stat needed.

The way conditions are now they are going to always shape the meta. They will either be the meta because they tend to be easier to apply and allow you to be tankier than a power build, or power will have to do insane damage in order to compete. Options 3 and 4 seem like the best options to me. Option 3 would make DoT an actual thing in this game for once, while 4 would in theory just make the two kinds of damage do roughly the same thing but force you to go just as glassy as power if you want big numbers.

There are also way too many traits and utilities that apply small trash condis. I think they should reduce the condi sources and the aoe condi cleanse. Scarcity makes both more impactful.

[Isidar.4789]

@BurrTheKing.8571 said:

2. Change the priority of condition removal to focus on damage dealing conditions first.

If you want to do sth like this then boon corrupt should prioritize resistance and stability. Why should guard and war go untouched by covering them by tons of boons?

[Druh.1092]

i agree need removed or not insta applied yes necro is unmobile but with perma cripple they can legit walk faster than u and u cant escape i f ur port or we is on cd and they just like walk next top you and u die no skill req on thier part

[Vertep.2498]

@Zoltreez.6435 said:Necro has the least amount of Mobility in the entire game to the level of almost non existent....

so then reduce torment by high amount becouse torment with criple is just ugh...while you almost cant move then out of next big aoe condis

[Kuya.6495]

It should be obvious that the reason why they gave scourge cripple is the same reason they gave reaper chill: it's a slow class with few ports that has a hard time catching its targets, so they gave it conditions that impair movement, which is fair.

Focusing on cripple is focusing on the wrong thing. If you are concerned with scourges having too much condi bomb, then reducing the torment stacks in pvp only is the way to go, but i don't think scourge needs any more nerfs to their damage right now. At the very least, they haven't been a serious problem the last few times i played this week and i've noticed a decrease in scourge stacks in my matches.

[Zoltreez.6435]

@Vertep.2498 said:

@Zoltreez.6435 said:Necro has the least amount of Mobility in the entire game to the level of almost non existent....

so then reduce torment by high amount becouse torment with criple is just ugh...while you almost cant move then out of next big aoe condis

Leap,Dash,Teleport,jump,blink,immune,cleanse.......... no matter what class you play outside of necromancer you have a minimum of 3+ of these if you build your class right and on usualy on low CD....

if the reason you cant get away from necromancer stuff is cripple your doing something reeeeeeealy wrong...

seriously the state Necros are in nowdays where everyone else got bloated with everything... if you cant get away from a necro in a 1v1 your bad end of story...

[Druh.1092]

not every class has a minimum of 3 that is bullshit and if u cleanse it it is instantly reapplied and last like 30sec

[Druh.1092]

so stop defending ur op class scourge is str8 cancer to this game

[Vertep.2498]

@Zoltreez.6435 said:

@Vertep.2498 said:

@Zoltreez.6435 said:Necro has the least amount of Mobility in the entire game to the level of almost non existent....

so then reduce torment by high amount becouse torment with criple is just ugh...while you almost cant move then out of next big aoe condis

Leap,Dash,Teleport,jump,blink,immune,cleanse.......... no matter what class you play outside of necromancer you have a minimum of 3+ of these if you build your class right and on usualy on low CD....

if the reason you cant get away from necromancer stuff is cripple your doing something reeeeeeealy wrong...

seriously the state Necros are in nowdays where everyone else got bloated with everything... if you cant get away from a necro in a 1v1 your bad end of story...

2x dodge and you are rip to next attack and about leap or dash..not everyone have very long range leap with short colldown, mostly its just 600 which isnt to much for single skill, the only good skill to something like this is thief teleport with shortbow which can be even spammed few times but also not every thief have shortbow so only thier speedbuff from dodge is if they are on DD spec

immune....most of classes dont have access to this or need to have special build to get acces to this which will be just useless against any other class

cleanse..as I wrote before...1st clanse..in moment you have back 20+ stacks of condi, 2nd cleanse...in next moment you have again 10-20+ stacks of every condi while you burned all of your cleanses...not everyone are on guards which heared have no problem with cleanse but other classes cant spam this in every 2-3 seconds while fighting against sick scourge

[Isidar.4789]

You guys need to be really bad if you cant win against scourge after last "bug fix" nerfs

[Loop.8106]

@Isidar.4789 said:

@BurrTheKing.8571 said:

2. Change the priority of condition removal to focus on damage dealing conditions first.

If you want to do sth like this then boon corrupt should prioritize resistance and stability. Why should guard and war go untouched by covering them by tons of boons?

Warriors have very few boons to begin with. They have pulsing stab (Which is laughably easy to corrupt as a scourge).Guardians needs boons to live. We have about half the base HP-pool of what necromancers have. We have extremely limited disengage potential outside of the DH F2.

"Guardians have all the tools to get in to trouble, but none to get them out of it."

This is a quote I've always liked. We have decent mobility. Emphasis on decent. Every DPS oriented guard build runs 25% Movement speed runes. We have Judges Intervention and Sword 2, both of which requires an enemy target.

[Daniel Handler.4816]

@Jeknar.6184 said:That's exactly the same reason why Deathly Chill is so strong... You have a movement impairing condition on top of a damaging condition. I think the suggestion is fair, but they would have to add somenthing else to compensate. And please don't say there is no need for the compensation as scourges already lost a big deal of their damage potential with the fix on Dhuumfire procs.

I'd say, remove cripple but increase 1 torment stack on the corruption. It increase the damage while being easier to deal with (1 condition instead of 2 and no movement impairing effects other than extra damage from torment if you move)

I agree. Necro players need to be part of the meta.

Did you mean conversion? I'm fine with punishment skills converting one boon to 3 stacks of torment.

• to compensate ghastly breach needs to pulse every 2 seconds, and double duration of the field from 5 to 10

The shades should not get extra torment.

• Instead restore their duration.
• nefarious favour stays nerfed.

[Vagrant.7206]

@Jeknar.6184 said:

@BurrTheKing.8571 said:

2. Change the priority of condition removal to focus on damage dealing conditions first.

Then you'll get Perma Immobilized by certain professions, which is just as deadly.

My thought process for condi removal should be this:

1) CC (Fear, taunt, immob)2) Damage-dealing condis (ranked by damage, so burning first, poison last)3) Impairing condis (cripple, blind, chilled, etc)

@Zoltreez.6435 said:

@Vertep.2498 said:

@Zoltreez.6435 said:Necro has the least amount of Mobility in the entire game to the level of almost non existent....

so then reduce torment by high amount becouse torment with criple is just ugh...while you almost cant move then out of next big aoe condis

Leap,Dash,Teleport,jump,blink,immune,cleanse.......... no matter what class you play outside of necromancer you have a minimum of 3+ of these if you build your class right and on usualy on low CD....

Have you even heard of engineer bro?

@Isidar.4789 said:You guys need to be really bad if you cant win against scourge after last "bug fix" nerfs

Do you play a class like say... holosmith or ranger? If so, scourge can still melt you in seconds, even with the "nerf." I literally have to spam the majority of my cleanses to have a hope of surviving an encounter with a scourge.

[Ravezaar.4951]

@"Daniel Handler.4816" said:Neither the shades nor the utilities should apply cripple.

• They already apply torment, and remove/convert boons. They don't need another cover condition, especially one that impairs movement.
• We are already forced to run tormented off the point to escape the full burst. That is enough "punishment"
• You didn't put cripple on necro wells, why would it be okay for shades?

I think Anet should go ahead and remove the Class alltogether

[Daniel Handler.4816]

@Ravezaar.4951 said:

@"Daniel Handler.4816" said:Neither the shades nor the utilities should apply cripple.

• They already apply torment, and remove/convert boons. They don't need another cover condition, especially one that impairs movement.
• We are already forced to run tormented off the point to escape the full burst. That is enough "punishment"
• You didn't put cripple on necro wells, why would it be okay for shades?

I think Anet should go ahead and remove the Class alltogether

This is an rpg. We put a lot of effort into our characters. Every profession should have an effective build in each game mode. It doesn't have to be meta but it shouldn't be barely viable either. This is their philosophy. It's why they abolished the trinity.

Unfortunately the devs are only human. That's why we offer suggestions.

This thread is to keep scourge relevant but not overpowered.