Another frustrating day in WvW

[Salt Mode.3780]

Lol that guy is name O B S E S S I O N and he uses a dumb pet that makes more visual clutter. He isnt doing anything special in particular cuz like i said ALL mesmer builds stem from the same traits. He uses scepter pistol staff on condi build on trailblazers nothing extremely special. He just knows how to abuse visual clutter.

[Hackuuna.4085]

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:I generally kill Mesmers I encounter on Berserker, but there is this one Charr Mirage on Maguuma that even on Berserker gives me a hard time. That player goes full yolo at melee range and couldn't give 2 dolyak craps if I use Arc Divider. He never stops spawning clones, and as soon as he shatters them there are 2-3 more up almost immediately, and he frequently swaps places with the clones and uses the Mirage skills that break targeting. Our fights don't last long, but its roughly 50/50 with that player. So perhaps that is some more helpful advice for you?

Suggesting power mesmers roll condi mirage pretty much sums up the state of the class. That's not a knock against you, by the way. Do note that this discussion is about power mesmer roaming.

[Metzie.3012]

@"Senqu.8054" said:I don’t know how to think about this.

Guild wars 1 was a game with soo many different game modes in PvP. So many different goals or things to do. And it was always skill needed to pull things and comps off. You could play thousand of different builds and all have been efficient in a way. You could play class comps like iWay with 5 warrior/rangers, you could play balanced spike, you could play FoC spike with 5 necros, Ranger spike, dervish way, assa way, bunny thumper rangers, e-sourge spike with Mesmers. And all the time you felt superior if you knew what to do because you just outplayed the enemy by using the right skills in the right moment. When you swaped the weaponset to energy inscription or vampire, when you canceled attacks to confuse the enemy rupter. Or you played Ranger to get the class specific attributboni and used necroskills because they only consumed 5 mana, you played assa/ranger with a bow because assas could crit... the possibility’s have been endless.

And what do we have now? 1 basic game mode. One never played game mode and basically a bad version of luxon vs kurzic. Soo many builds, you could count them on one hand and a community that just discovered what kiting is without knowing the term. It feels like a lot of these players which are left have never played an other mmo before and gw2 is their first experience with this genre ever Oo

Yes, it is indeed sad and I can understand it - even though I never played GW1. It is unfortunately also due to the course and development of the developer studio (in general). At that time and in the course of the early years of the game, they still had countless visions to make the game "diverse, also innovative (effective)" and to improve it (even if it took its time). A good product sells itself! Nowadays the game is largely managed, a few innovations here and there - that's it. Big announcements or changes (alliances system as an example) disappear on the horizon or in the desert fog. ...

Okay, enough crying! I'll log into the game right now, choose a character, ... Necro, not just any - SCOURGE, not just any, but "MENDER-AMULET Scourge". Let's play a few rounds of sPvP, with my (at least) 3 other "Scourge" friends. I'm so happy, it's so much fun! :3 :3 :3

*I've never really played scourge, certainly not PvP. And it stays that way, was never my playstyle

That's what the people in charge are these days - too boring, too lazy (probably not). Changes or adjustments of grievances - smaller and obvious or impactful - do not just take a perceived eternity. Related to the PvP modes in general (and the argument that PvE is the way, I do not let count, because this one stinks, ...).

[Veprovina.4876]

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Veprovina.4876 said:I think @Senqu.8054 is mad because you and some others are being captain obvious here and giving advice that everyone here already knows while completely missing the point of the thread and what Senqu is trying to say. The issue was never the strategy. But @Yoci.2481 already pointed that out as well.

Well, they need to remember that not everyone who comes to the forums knows everything, and what may seem obvious to most of us isn't always obvious to others who come asking for help. And as I mentioned to Yoci, it more or less sums up the difference between the good Mesmers I fight and the bad ones.

Yes but the tread was never about strategies or new players so i don't get who your advice is for really. I mean, it's good advice sure, but i'm just baffled by its inclusion in this discussion.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Hackuuna.4085 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:I generally kill Mesmers I encounter on Berserker, but there is this one Charr Mirage on Maguuma that even on Berserker gives me a hard time. That player goes full yolo at melee range and couldn't give 2 dolyak craps if I use Arc Divider. He never stops spawning clones, and as soon as he shatters them there are 2-3 more up almost immediately, and he frequently swaps places with the clones and uses the Mirage skills that break targeting. Our fights don't last long, but its roughly 50/50 with that player. So perhaps that is some more helpful advice for you?

Suggesting power mesmers roll condi mirage pretty much sums up the state of the class. That's not a knock against you, by the way. Do note that this discussion is about power mesmer roaming.

That's fair. Again, I'm offering up advice from the point of view of someone who fights mesmers and what works against me in general.

[manu.7539]

Oh well, I missed the point of the "power mesmer" specific issues, sry if I offended anyone. Its maybe because I'm a main ele but mesmers seemed to me quite easy when I played it so I didnt understood the laments. Since they nerfed power damage I changed my ele gear to go with condis, guess power mesmers should do the same and adapt their build.

[Senqu.8054]

Ou man I was a little bit mad guys im sorry haha :p results of being nostalgic I guess? It is really friendly to get advices and I appreciate every post in this sup, thanks for that :3

As already said here from others, sure you can be efficient with any build as long as the skill level of the opponent is far below yours, this is guild wars right after all. But at a certain level it gets obvious that the whole system is build around rock, paper, scissor and right now in special power Mesmer is always on the losing end.

I just know how the game was pre HoT and would give everything to get this state back :( :( the expansions have been the worst thing what could happen to this game right after the living world story

[Senqu.8054]

@"manu.7539" said:Oh well, I missed the point of the "power mesmer" specific issues, sry if I offended anyone. Its maybe because I'm a main ele but mesmers seemed to me quite easy when I played it so I didnt understood the laments. Since they nerfed power damage I changed my ele gear to go with condis, guess power mesmers should do the same and adapt their build.

In the end condi or hybride gets carried by the inspiration trait line combo 323 + SoI, SoE and SoM. Can be done with core or mirage, not with chrono because of f4. Btw mirage can channel 12 times in a row sword ambush without being in fight (!!) with Desert Distortion and energy sigil even more. Still, try to pull anything off without this and you are in the same spot as power mesmer. Inspiration trait line got not nerfed while damage got 50% shaves. You don’t have to be a detective to see that it will carry.

Mark my words the inspiration trait line yolo combo will be nerfed :s

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Senqu.8054 said:

@"manu.7539" said:Oh well, I missed the point of the "power mesmer" specific issues, sry if I offended anyone. Its maybe because I'm a main ele but mesmers seemed to me quite easy when I played it so I didnt understood the laments. Since they nerfed power damage I changed my ele gear to go with condis, guess power mesmers should do the same and adapt their build.

In the end condi or hybride gets carried by the inspiration trait line combo 323 + SoI, SoE and SoM. Can be done with core or mirage, not with chrono because of f4. Btw mirage can channel 12 times in a row sword ambush without being in fight (!!) with Desert Distortion and energy sigil even more. Still, try to pull anything off without this and you are in the same spot as power mesmer. Inspiration trait line got not nerfed while damage got 50% shaves. You don’t have to be a detective to see that it will carry.

Mark my words the inspiration trait line yolo combo will be nerfed :s

tbh signet trait and revive trait are the last 2 OP things mesmer has, after that its all just trash, bad, medicore or OK traits left.

[Salt Mode.3780]

lol again ele mains coming here to advertise their sorrows, ele has various built into power that can be played, blob fighting, roaming, small man skirmishes. What you ele mains fail to see is you guys got nerfed because how oppressive the Air trait line is, I mean superspeed on air attunement on a minor trait is retarded in itself. You guys only started to get nerf treatments recently compared to mesmers so go spill ur sorrows somewhere else. U guys still have Lightning Rod which is a very strong trait that can still crit.The fact tht eles have a set of 10 extra skills compensates and over compensates in some aspect of utility and dmg as well as versatility. If ur argument that u guys dont have a F1 to F4 fine regardless tht is still 6 extra weapon skills over any other classes. And also the fact tht ur traits work so well with ur combos in comparison to mesmer's very few traits there should not be any comparison.

Ele can go LR power buildEle can still go FA power build (just cant one shot someone from 100-0 in 2 seconds)Tempest Support is still one of the more oppressive support class for small man skirmishes-Earth Water Tempest for being a annoying bunker-Fire Water Tempest for Blinds and condi cleanseCondi Sword weaver is still another strong build

Mesmers on the other hand is either 1 dodge condi mirage tht pales in comparison in dmg compared to other condi classes or we go gimmick one shot that can land or can miss cuz of how clones work.

[manu.7539]

@Salt Mode.3780 said:

Mesmers on the other hand is either 1 dodge condi mirage tht pales in comparison in dmg compared to other condi classes or we go gimmick one shot that can land or can miss cuz of how clones work.

Bah, only 1 dodge but 1 dodge that make ur opponent lose his target. By the time he find u among the tons of clones your endurance is refilled most of the time anyway. And if by luck he find u quickly then u still can stealth and teleport out of range so easily. Lets not forget that u should use sigil of energy to refill ur endurance. Nah, I dont buy ur lamentations about mesmer, still a very annoying class with powerful gimmicks.

ANET should seriously nerf cloning and stealthing, so boring to play hide and seek!

! I expect some cute responses to this :p

[Salt Mode.3780]

lol only newbies have a problem finding the target from clones but from your response it seems like you are one of them. Just because you have a hard time vs mesmers it doesn't mean its in a good state. U can however go back to the Elementalist Thread and complain how useless ur class is. Its quite funny how u only responded to tht comment and did not make a remark on everything else tht was said. Like I said whiney ele mains coming to other forum post trying to get sympathy from people. Get in line lulz.

! I expect a Ele main to make some dumb irrelevant comment.

[Senqu.8054]

And this is also a reason why the clone mechanic, as it is right now, should disappear. We have to admit that there is a growing community that is not family with the mmo genre or just not good enough to handle everything happening on the Battle Field. Things like clones are the perfect noob stomper for them. It is not possible to balance this if 20% of the player base is not able to comprehend who the real Mesmer is while the other 80% think what is wrong with these guys.

Manu you really have to understand that the majority of this player base has not a single Problem getting the right target. Things like suggesting to play without boons is beyond any meaningful tactic and just shows that you belong to the group of players that are not able to click on max 4 points on the monitor in a reasonable time.

[Senqu.8054]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Senqu.8054 said:

@"manu.7539" said:Oh well, I missed the point of the "power mesmer" specific issues, sry if I offended anyone. Its maybe because I'm a main ele but mesmers seemed to me quite easy when I played it so I didnt understood the laments. Since they nerfed power damage I changed my ele gear to go with condis, guess power mesmers should do the same and adapt their build.

In the end condi or hybride gets carried by the inspiration trait line combo 323 + SoI, SoE and SoM. Can be done with core or mirage, not with chrono because of f4. Btw mirage can channel 12 times in a row sword ambush without being in fight (!!) with Desert Distortion and energy sigil even more. Still, try to pull anything off without this and you are in the same spot as power mesmer. Inspiration trait line got not nerfed while damage got 50% shaves. You don’t have to be a detective to see that it will carry.

Mark my words the inspiration trait line yolo combo will be nerfed :s

tbh signet trait and revive trait are the last 2 OP things mesmer has, after that its all just trash, bad, medicore or OK traits left.

That’s true. Nothing build defining left anymore. And everything you need in this meta, like heal, condi remove and distortion is in one trait line. Build crafting got a little bit tricky these days and is not as near as satisfying as it was :(

[Veprovina.4876]

@Senqu.8054 said:Things like clones are the perfect noob stomper for them.

Personally, i don't think clones should go away just because noobs can't tell them apart from a real mesmer.That's kind of the point, to visually confuse your foe.We shouldn't lose a profession mechanic because some newbie player got roflstomped by a mesmer - that's what practicing is for. You can't balance something around newbies.

[manu.7539]

@"Salt Mode.3780" said:lol only newbies have a problem finding the target from clones but from your response it seems like you are one of them. Just because you have a hard time vs mesmers it doesn't mean its in a good state. U can however go back to the Elementalist Thread and complain how useless ur class is. Its quite funny how u only responded to tht comment and did not make a remark on everything else tht was said. Like I said whiney ele mains coming to other forum post trying to get sympathy from people. Get in line lulz.

! I expect a Ele main to make some dumb irrelevant comment.

Finding noob mesmers is not a problem but skilled mesmer have nothing to complain, they got the tools to have fun and to be competitve! As some said : "You can't balance something around newbies."!

! I hope I satisfied your expectations! =)

[Senqu.8054]

@Veprovina.4876 said:

@Senqu.8054 said:Things like clones are the perfect noob stomper for them.

Personally, i don't think clones should go away just because noobs can't tell them apart from a real mesmer.That's kind of the point, to visually confuse your foe.We shouldn't lose a profession mechanic because some newbie player got roflstomped by a mesmer - that's what practicing is for. You can't balance something around newbies.

It’s just one of the reasons why I’m in the opinion they should not be in this game anymore. The mechanic itself allows instant damage if the clones are summoned directly in front of the enemy but delayed if the enemy is not near enough to them. Think about staff 2 for example. A lot of people forget that you gain basically 2 free hits if combined with f1 or f2. In special chrono can pull off 2 directly hitting f2s with 3 clones in under 2 seconds in combination with mirror images and CS, There is no counterplay to this. Contrary to that, if the clones are to far away they are not doing a single bit of damage and it can be outplayed by just moving around or porting on a point they can’t reach. And if the target is in stealth they are unable to do anything beside having big question marks on their head.

I know you suggested that they should be indestructible, but I see the Probleme here that in Special in WvW it is not healthy to have aoe mines running around the battlefield. Sure it would allow Mesmer to have some real Zerg builds but let’s face it, this would be as good for Zerg fights as scourges are and they still can be countered by the things mentioned above.

The fragility of these clones also leads to burst builds because you can’t let them live long enough to get more potential out of them. It is almost always better to shatter them as soon as you can.

Addition to that it is absurd how they try to balance f1, a ability that can basically multiply its damage by 4 (with 3 clones). Look at the damage of it: 300, 490, 642. (+300,+190,+152). The addition damage you gain per clone is not multiplied by the amount of clones you have, it is the opposite, the amount of damage a single clone does shrinks with the amount of clones you have. Sounds like a normal move to balance it but it results in odd behaviors of the damage numbers, because with n clones all clones have to crit to exceed the damage value of nclones-1. Long story short, it basically forces the player to stack precision which is one more thing that cripples power Mesmer vs condi and results in full glass canon meme builds.

[Veprovina.4876]

@Senqu.8054 said:

@Veprovina.4876 said:

@Senqu.8054 said:Things like clones are the perfect noob stomper for them.

Personally, i don't think clones should go away just because noobs can't tell them apart from a real mesmer.That's kind of the point, to visually confuse your foe.We shouldn't lose a profession mechanic because some newbie player got roflstomped by a mesmer - that's what practicing is for. You can't balance something around newbies.

It’s just one of the reasons why I’m in the opinion they should not be in this game anymore. The mechanic itself allows instant damage if the clones are summoned directly in front of the enemy but delayed if the enemy is not near enough to them. Think about staff 2 for example. In special chrono can pull off 3 directly hitting f2s with 3 clones in under 10 seconds in combination with mirror images and CS. There is no counterplay to this. Contrary to that, if the clones are to far away they are not doing a single bit of damage and it can be outplayed by just moving around or porting on a point they can’t reach.

I know you suggested that they should be indestructible, but I see the Probleme here that in Special in WvW it is not healthy to have aoe mines running around the battlefield. Sure it would allow Mesmer to have some real Zerg builds but let’s face it, this would be as good for Zerg fights as scourges are and they still can be countered by the things mentioned above.

Exactly. This would make clones actually do sometihng in WvW. Right now, Mesmer is missing a profession mechanic there. It's not really "fair" when you look at it that way. Plus, why shouldn't they be countered my just moving somewhere? As long as they 100% time work as intended, then that's the counterplay to the mechanic, i see nothing wrong with that. It's like saying, move out of the way of Berserker's Arc divider. I mean - yeah, obviously move away from that, that's one of the counterplays to this. Same should be true for clones. The problem with clones, and especially phantasms, compared to something like Arc divider is that Arc divider doesn't have a chance to fail due to a bug. It always casts. It just might not reach if someone had the foresight to move away and predict you. Clones should behave the same. Should be summoned 100% of the time and not bug out like sword 3 for example, and when you send them to shatter, if someone sees it coming and moves away, out of reach, good, they dodged it.

The fragility of these clones also leads to burst builds because you can’t let them live long enough to get more potential out of them. It is almost always better to shatter them as soon as you can.

That's why i said they need to be on a timer. That way you still need to put pressure by shattering, and you don't get invulnerable clones applying condis forever while you just spaz around with movement skills. That wouldn't be fair.

Addition to that it is absurd how they try to balance f1, a ability that can basically multiply its damage by 4 (with 3 clones). Look at the damage of it: 300, 490, 642. (+300,+190,+152). The addition damage you gain per clone is not multiplied by the amount of clones you have, it is the opposite, the amount of damage a single clone does shrinks with the amount of clones you have. Sounds like a normal move to balance it but it results in odd behaviors of the damage numbers, because with n clones all clones have to crit to exceed the damage value of nclones-1. Long story short, it basically forces the player to stack precision which is one more thing that cripples power Mesmer vs condi and results in full glass canon meme builds.

Yes, i agree, there's a lot of balancing issues to be addressed, but they can't be addressed until the broken system they're applied upon is fixed. Otherwise any "fix" is going to be broken by default. Now, whether they go in your direction, mine or someone elses idea is besides the point mostly, the first thing that needs to happen is for the profession mechanic to be 100% reliable like everyone else has. Only then can they balance everything else around it. I'd rather they don't remove clones as that's a very unique feature and a profession theme that they'd be throwing down the drain (mesmer would effectively lose its identity), but whatever they do, they need to make it fool proof.

[Senqu.8054]

@Veprovina.4876 said:

@Senqu.8054 said:

@Veprovina.4876 said:

@Senqu.8054 said:Things like clones are the perfect noob stomper for them.

Personally, i don't think clones should go away just because noobs can't tell them apart from a real mesmer.That's kind of the point, to visually confuse your foe.We shouldn't lose a profession mechanic because some newbie player got roflstomped by a mesmer - that's what practicing is for. You can't balance something around newbies.

It’s just one of the reasons why I’m in the opinion they should not be in this game anymore. The mechanic itself allows instant damage if the clones are summoned directly in front of the enemy but delayed if the enemy is not near enough to them. Think about staff 2 for example. In special chrono can pull off 3 directly hitting f2s with 3 clones in under 10 seconds in combination with mirror images and CS. There is no counterplay to this. Contrary to that, if the clones are to far away they are not doing a single bit of damage and it can be outplayed by just moving around or porting on a point they can’t reach.

I know you suggested that they should be indestructible, but I see the Probleme here that in Special in WvW it is not healthy to have aoe mines running around the battlefield. Sure it would allow Mesmer to have some real Zerg builds but let’s face it, this would be as good for Zerg fights as scourges are and they still can be countered by the things mentioned above.

Exactly. This would make clones actually do sometihng in WvW. Right now, Mesmer is missing a profession mechanic there. It's not really "fair" when you look at it that way. Plus, why shouldn't they be countered my just moving somewhere? As long as they 100% time work as intended, then that's the counterplay to the mechanic, i see nothing wrong with that. It's like saying, move out of the way of Berserker's Arc divider. I mean - yeah, obviously move away from that, that's one of the counterplays to this. Same should be true for clones. The problem with clones, and especially phantasms, compared to something like Arc divider is that Arc divider doesn't have a chance to fail due to a bug. It always casts. It just might not reach if someone had the foresight to move away and predict you. Clones should behave the same. Should be summoned 100% of the time and not bug out like sword 3 for example, and when you send them to shatter, if someone sees it coming and moves away, out of reach, good, they dodged it.

It would result in to much visual clutter. One single Mesmer can easily summon 9 clones in a very short time. Even if I have to admit that it would be a good way to use them in zergs it would be just one more aoe spamming profession. There needs to be a other way to make this profession able to compete in zergs then relying on the same mechanic on all 3 specs (core, chrono and mirage) and this mechanic needs to be more flexible.

For the counter play part, yes sure you could say moving away is just counter play but you forget that other professions don’t need to build up these clones. It is bound to a area and delayed in time. The counter play can happen before you even used your shatter ability’s.

The fragility of these clones also leads to burst builds because you can’t let them live long enough to get more potential out of them. It is almost always better to shatter them as soon as you can.

That's why i said they need to be on a timer. That way you still need to put pressure by shattering, and you don't get invulnerable clones applying condis forever while you just spaz around with movement skills. That wouldn't be fair.

Indestructible, timer based clones. Sounds like engi turrets with extra steps for me. We had that. No more ai driven damage appliance.

Addition to that it is absurd how they try to balance f1, a ability that can basically multiply its damage by 4 (with 3 clones). Look at the damage of it: 300, 490, 642. (+300,+190,+152). The addition damage you gain per clone is not multiplied by the amount of clones you have, it is the opposite, the amount of damage a single clone does shrinks with the amount of clones you have. Sounds like a normal move to balance it but it results in odd behaviors of the damage numbers, because with n

clones all clones have to crit to exceed the damage value of n

clones-1. Long story short, it basically forces the player to stack precision which is one more thing that cripples power Mesmer vs condi and results in full glass canon meme builds.

Yes, i agree, there's a lot of balancing issues to be addressed, but they can't be addressed until the broken system they're applied upon is fixed. Otherwise any "fix" is going to be broken by default. Now, whether they go in your direction, mine or someone elses idea is besides the point mostly, the first thing that needs to happen is for the profession mechanic to be 100% reliable like everyone else has. Only then can they balance everything else around it. I'd rather they don't remove clones as that's a very unique feature and a profession theme that they'd be throwing down the drain (mesmer would effectively lose its identity), but whatever they do, they need to make it fool proof.

We are 8 damn years in this game and you wanna tell me something about first has the mechanic to be 100% reliable before balance? I mean that’s my whole point. ANet is not able to. We already had every possible meta with it. Clones with high health pool, medium, low. Now make them invulnerable because the people loved the meta with high health pool right? Tell me, have you waited for a balanced Mesmer mechanic for 8 years? How long are you willed to wait? It has brought us nothing and we are at the same point of balance (power shatter with gs s/t) as we have been 8 years ago with the difference that we can do less now.

[Salt Mode.3780]

@manu.7539 said:

@"Salt Mode.3780" said:lol only newbies have a problem finding the target from clones but from your response it seems like you are one of them. Just because you have a hard time vs mesmers it doesn't mean its in a good state. U can however go back to the Elementalist Thread and complain how useless ur class is. Its quite funny how u only responded to tht comment and did not make a remark on everything else tht was said. Like I said whiney ele mains coming to other forum post trying to get sympathy from people. Get in line lulz.

! I expect a Ele main to make some dumb irrelevant comment.

Finding noob mesmers is not a problem but skilled mesmer have nothing to complain, they got the tools to have fun and to be competitve! As some said : "You can't balance something around newbies."!

! I hope I satisfied your expectations! =)

So you are agreeing with me k I am very satisfied with your comment, yes mesmers should not be nerfed because noobs cant tell the difference between real player and clones nor should mesmers be nerfed cuz players refuse to learn how mesmer works.

[Veprovina.4876]

@Senqu.8054 said:

@Veprovina.4876 said:

@Senqu.8054 said:

@Veprovina.4876 said:

@Senqu.8054 said:Things like clones are the perfect noob stomper for them.

Personally, i don't think clones should go away just because noobs can't tell them apart from a real mesmer.That's kind of the point, to visually confuse your foe.We shouldn't lose a profession mechanic because some newbie player got roflstomped by a mesmer - that's what practicing is for. You can't balance something around newbies.

It’s just one of the reasons why I’m in the opinion they should not be in this game anymore. The mechanic itself allows instant damage if the clones are summoned directly in front of the enemy but delayed if the enemy is not near enough to them. Think about staff 2 for example. In special chrono can pull off 3 directly hitting f2s with 3 clones in under 10 seconds in combination with mirror images and CS. There is no counterplay to this. Contrary to that, if the clones are to far away they are not doing a single bit of damage and it can be outplayed by just moving around or porting on a point they can’t reach.

I know you suggested that they should be indestructible, but I see the Probleme here that in Special in WvW it is not healthy to have aoe mines running around the battlefield. Sure it would allow Mesmer to have some real Zerg builds but let’s face it, this would be as good for Zerg fights as scourges are and they still can be countered by the things mentioned above.

Exactly. This would make clones actually do sometihng in WvW. Right now, Mesmer is missing a profession mechanic there. It's not really "fair" when you look at it that way. Plus, why shouldn't they be countered my just moving somewhere? As long as they 100% time work as intended, then that's the counterplay to the mechanic, i see nothing wrong with that. It's like saying, move out of the way of Berserker's Arc divider. I mean - yeah, obviously move away from that, that's one of the counterplays to this. Same should be true for clones. The problem with clones, and especially phantasms, compared to something like Arc divider is that Arc divider doesn't have a chance to fail due to a bug. It always casts. It just might not reach if someone had the foresight to move away and predict you. Clones should behave the same. Should be summoned 100% of the time and not bug out like sword 3 for example, and when you send them to shatter, if someone sees it coming and moves away, out of reach, good, they dodged it.

It would result in to much visual clutter. One single Mesmer can easily summon 9 clones in a very short time. Even if I have to admit that it would be a good way to use them in zergs it would be just one more aoe spamming profession. There needs to be a other way to make this profession able to compete in zergs then relying on the same mechanic on all 3 specs (core, chrono and mirage) and this mechanic needs to be more flexible.

For the counter play part, yes sure you could say moving away is just counter play but you forget that other professions don’t need to build up these clones. It is bound to a area and delayed in time. The counter play can happen before you even used your shatter ability’s.

The fragility of these clones also leads to burst builds because you can’t let them live long enough to get more potential out of them. It is almost always better to shatter them as soon as you can.

That's why i said they need to be on a timer. That way you still need to put pressure by shattering, and you don't get invulnerable clones applying condis forever while you just spaz around with movement skills. That wouldn't be fair.

Indestructible, timer based clones. Sounds like engi turrets with extra steps for me. We had that. No more ai driven damage appliance.

Addition to that it is absurd how they try to balance f1, a ability that can basically multiply its damage by 4 (with 3 clones). Look at the damage of it: 300, 490, 642. (+300,+190,+152). The addition damage you gain per clone is not multiplied by the amount of clones you have, it is the opposite, the amount of damage a single clone does shrinks with the amount of clones you have. Sounds like a normal move to balance it but it results in odd behaviors of the damage numbers, because with n

clones all clones have to crit to exceed the damage value of n

clones-1. Long story short, it basically forces the player to stack precision which is one more thing that cripples power Mesmer vs condi and results in full glass canon meme builds.

Yes, i agree, there's a lot of balancing issues to be addressed, but they can't be addressed until the broken system they're applied upon is fixed. Otherwise any "fix" is going to be broken by default. Now, whether they go in your direction, mine or someone elses idea is besides the point mostly, the first thing that needs to happen is for the profession mechanic to be 100% reliable like everyone else has. Only then can they balance everything else around it. I'd rather they don't remove clones as that's a very unique feature and a profession theme that they'd be throwing down the drain (mesmer would effectively lose its identity), but whatever they do, they need to make it fool proof.

We are 8 kitten years in this game and you wanna tell me something about first has the mechanic to be 100% reliable before balance? I mean that’s my whole point. ANet is not able to. We already had every possible meta with it. Clones with high health pool, medium, low. Now make them invulnerable because the people loved the meta with high health pool right? Tell me, have you waited for a balanced Mesmer mechanic for 8 years? How long are you willed to wait? It has brought us nothing and we are at the same point of balance (power shatter with gs s/t) as we have been 8 years ago with the difference that we can do less now.

I mean, i get your frustration - let's be honest, we've all been there (a lot!) - but what's that going to solve?Doing some big overhaul at this point is not going to sit well with the community, so i don't really see them changing the profession mechanic.Furthermore, it's i think unrealistic to expect too much variety from kind of a limited set of "parameters" each class has.

I believe there's balance to be had here without getting mesmers to the chopping block and frankensteining them back together, they just need to be smart about it.There's nothing inherently wrong with the illusions mechanic, it just needs polish and they need to give us compensation for whatever they take and what we lack due to the mechanic. Because other professions have that.

For instance, you mentioned delayed time while summoning clones compared to arc divider's instant cast. That's a fair comparison, and if we just had some "detail" here that would balance the slower buildup of clones compared to instant cast mechanics, it would already be way more balanced and polished than it is.

Same for WvW. You mentioned 9 clones? Well, make them summon 2 at a time there, but make them stronger with additional trait synergy.

Now don't quote me on those specific points, they're just "out of the blue" brainstorms that aren't thought out, just examples that - if they set their minds to it, they can balance the mesmer for it to not be OP while being on the same level as other professions.

Now, whether they'll do that, idk... I'm optimistic and i think they won't do anything before EoD so, any expectation for a balance patch will have to wait until after they release it. Ideal scenario would be to overhaul the mesmer as EoD is released, otherwise, if they build the EoD elite on top of mesmer's current state, they're just asking for trouble in future balancing.

And in the end - if you're not having fun - why play?The beauty of this game is that you can leave and come back without being behind anyone.

I'm also frustrated by mesmer's state, but never so much that i still can't have fun playing it.If i was fed up with it, i'd just take a break, maybe play other professions if i really wanted to play GW2 that much.

But i still like the gameplay. It just needs a lot of polish.

[Jables.4659]

@"Yoci.2481" said:Playing power Mesmer in WvW (roaming) is so frustrating.

It really is. I was a die hard power mirage player during the two-dodge-mirage era, but I almost exclusively play core hybrid now (2100 power, 1150 condition dmg, 40% crit chance before stacks and fury). Out of everything I've tested since the Feb. Patch, Dueling/Illusions/Chaos Scepter/Torch Sword/Pistol seems to be the most effective for solo roaming. The only things that really hard counter it are Power Dragonhunter and Strength Spellbreaker due to their insane reveal uptime and this builds reliance on stealth. It could be argued that thief should still be a hard counter, but I've only come across two thieves in the past year that were any challenge (which probably says more about the quality of thief players than anything else). Power Mesmer still functions when you have team mates to back you up, but when it gets hard focused it crumbles way too quickly to be a viable solo roamer. In a lot of cases, I think Axe/Torch Sword/Pistol Hybrid Mirage is the best Mesmer build for dueling, but if the build can't 1vX its not really worth solo roaming on imo.

Here's a clip of it in action. Obviously my opponents here are not the cream of the crop (you can't realistically win 1vX fights against genuinely skilled players).

I'm not saying that Mesmer isn't in a bad place (it definitely is), but this build is capable of holding its own against good players as long as the driver knows what they're doing. Right now the thing that frustrates me the most is how stealth reliant Core Mesmer is. When I was deep into Power Mirage I could practically ignore marked areas because stealth was just a small part of its toolkit. How hard could it be to tone down the marked stuff in WvW? Not only do we need to worry about sentrys, towers, and keeps, but I have come across a few players who incorporate Target Painter Traps into their fight style and it really shuts Core Chaos Mesmer down. If a thief gets hit by a target painter trap he can just teleport out of combat and wait out the timer, but Mesmer is basically fucked.

[Yoci.2481]

@Jables.4659 said:

@"Yoci.2481" said:Playing power Mesmer in WvW (roaming) is so frustrating.

It really is. I was a die hard power mirage player during the two-dodge-mirage era, but I almost exclusively play core hybrid now (2100 power, 1150 condition dmg, 40% crit chance before stacks and fury). Out of everything I've tested since the Feb. Patch, Dueling/Illusions/Chaos Scepter/Torch Sword/Pistol seems to be the most effective for solo roaming. The only things that really hard counter it are Power Dragonhunter and Strength Spellbreaker due to their insane reveal uptime and this builds reliance on stealth. It could be argued that thief should still be a hard counter, but I've only come across two thieves in the past year that were any challenge (which probably says more about the quality of thief players than anything else). Power Mesmer still functions when you have team mates to back you up, but when it gets hard focused it crumbles way too quickly to be a viable solo roamer. In a lot of cases, I think Axe/Torch Sword/Pistol Hybrid Mirage is the best Mesmer build for dueling, but if the build can't 1vX its not really worth solo roaming on imo.

Here's a clip of it in action. Obviously my opponents here are not the cream of the crop (you can't realistically win 1vX fights against genuinely skilled players).

I'm not saying that Mesmer isn't in a bad place (it definitely is), but this build is capable of holding its own against good players as long as the driver knows what they're doing. Right now the thing that frustrates me the most is how stealth reliant Core Mesmer is. When I was deep into Power Mirage I could practically ignore marked areas because stealth was just a small part of its toolkit. How hard could it be to tone down the marked stuff in WvW? Not only do we need to worry about sentrys, towers, and keeps, but I have come across a few players who incorporate Target Painter Traps into their fight style and it really shuts Core Chaos Mesmer down. If a thief gets hit by a target painter trap he can just teleport out of combat and wait out the timer, but Mesmer is basically kitten.

I remember watching and liking some of your videos, but I think you never posted your build. Did I see it right that you use Deceptive Evasion over Ineptitude?

[Salt Mode.3780]

Deceptive evasion is pretty staple for core mesmer builds for the clone generate in fact it is core to most power mesmer builds aside from one and that is chrono.

[Senqu.8054]

@Veprovina.4876 i think we will not come together here. I’m realistic, ANet couldn’t balance this mechanic for 8 years. The most devs who had very creative ideas already left the game development. To think that it can be balanced in the next years is a little bit naive in my opinion.

That I lost the fun of this game is not really true. I just or better we just lost every single option of how we played this profession in 8 years. There is nothing that can excuse this. And then still demanding for balance changes in hope that it will now give Mesmers freedom after they received one year no balance is nowhere near my logical understanding. Maybe I should be thankful for no changes, because even if the profession received changes it was a dull 50% cut. And every single time I had to craft like what? 2 or 3 new EQs because the old builds were killed again and oddly every single build needed this one trait because it was the only meta trait Mesmer had. Maybe I’m a little bit scared of what will happen when clones are again in a high health pool meta.

And why I’m not playing a other game or other profession? Look I play guild wars since the release of guild wars prophecy’s (since 16 years) my first class was a Mesmer. It belongs to my child hood memory’s. I waited 6 long years for the release of guild wars 2. And what we got there was magical and beyond everything. It had the potential to be one of the best mmos of all time. And now I have to wait for better times since 2 or 3 years? I’m already doing my „break“ for to long :( I am a loyal Customer who has payed this company a lot of money over the years. I just demand that they should get their heads out of each other’s asses and do something productive instead of literally taking my toys away xD I already see the next nerfs to inspiration trait line -.-

Btw. There is no better game out there. We all know that, it’s a fact haha :3 GW2 combat ruined me and my experience with other mmos. It’s a damn drug -.-

@Jables.4659 nice Video jables, would you mind posting your build? I play a relatively similar stats combo with 2000 power and 1150 condi dmg. Would be great to compare :D