Condition Druid performance in WvW

[LilBiM.3581]

Can we have a look at the performance of condition, immob druid in WvW and whether those numbers are working as intended? I suspect that this setup might be overperforming in survivability, damage, mobility and the ability to immobilize opponents for long durations of time. Atleast one aspect of which should be toned down.

[Shaogin.2679]

Honestly, this has already been explained to death in another thread, and I no longer have the energy cause I'm willing to bet that people asking for nerfs have no intention of listening to reason. Do everyone a favor and play the build for yourself and come to realize how silly asking to nerf this build is on your own.

Edited May 26, 2021 by Shaogin.2679

[anduriell.6280]

Immob Druid in WvW is not the issue (other than the dumb trait  Ancient seeds) it is the armor sets Trailblazer and Dire which are pretty broken.

Those sets increase armor and vitality (good against power) while also increase condition damage and expertise (extremely good dps) .

So not only immob druid but any class which can build for condition will be extremely obnoxious because of the max survivability and damage. 

 

 

 

 

[LilBiM.3581]

I would recommend that Daze be toned down on Druid so that it is instead used skillfully to interrupt skills rather than outright offensively so that the combination of Ancient Seeds, SB 5 and Druid Lunar Impact would not be as oppressive as it is now.

[lodjur.1284]

Ancient Seeds should just get redesigned.

 

Been a problem since it came out

 

Everything about the trait is just bad design. 

 

Condi Druid is fine otherwise. Mostly an issue when you get outnumbered and they camp staff at max range and hit you with an extremely long immobilize every 10 sec

[Dragonzhunter.8506]

8 hours ago, lodjur.1284 said:

Ancient Seeds should just get redesigned.

 

Been a problem since it came out

 

Everything about the trait is just bad design. 

 

Condi Druid is fine otherwise. Mostly an issue when you get outnumbered and they camp staff at max range and hit you with an extremely long immobilize every 10 sec

So, from your POV Ancient Seeds is bad , just because it is something who is working, but otherwise Druid is fine, again because without Ancient Seeds you could beat him, right, mr. Elementalis?

The Ancient Seeds is the thing for why ppl are playing Druid these days. Without this trait nobody would play Druid in WvW or sPVP.

[Dragonzhunter.8506]

On 5/25/2021 at 7:34 PM, LilBiM.3581 said:

Can we have a look at the performance of condition, immob druid in WvW and whether those numbers are working as intended? I suspect that this setup might be overperforming in survivability, damage, mobility and the ability to immobilize opponents for long durations of time. Atleast one aspect of which should be toned down.

Mr. Engineer, why don't you try to make a post about how to nerf the Engineer class. You have some things which are really OP. After that, make a Ranger, play Druid for a while, and then you are more than welcome to post your thoughts. 

Learn the class first, see what are his strong and weak spots, then make an resume and we will come with arguments pros or cons.

 

Have a nice day!

[anduriell.6280]

5 minutes ago, Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

So, from your POV Ancient Seeds is bad , just because it is something who is working, but otherwise Druid is fine, again because without Ancient Seeds you could beat him, right, mr. Elementalis?

The Ancient Seeds is the thing for why ppl are playing Druid these days. Without this trait nobody would play Druid in WvW or sPVP.

Ancient seeds is bad because is a 10s  pulsing immob which the druid can cast every 10s. 

It can immob up to 5 targets and is a totally passive trait which triggers randomly with any CC and without the druid doing anything to trigger it, as the pets will cast those CC automatically.  

 

That trait scale very badly the more players involved but is extremely overpowered against single players, as such it is being used only for griefing other players. 

 

That's why the trait should be deleted from the game with high priority.  

[Dragonzhunter.8506]

1 minute ago, anduriell.6280 said:

Ancient seeds is bad because is a 10s  pulsing immob which the druid can cast every 10s. 

It can immob up to 5 targets and is a totally passive trait which triggers randomly with any CC and without the druid doing anything to trigger it, as the pets will cast those CC automatically.  

 

That trait scale very badly the more players involved but is extremely overpowered against single players, as such it is being used only for griefing other players. 

 

That's why the trait should be deleted from the game with high priority.  

"druid can cast every 10s" , wrong! Th CD is 10s, without a stun/daze/knock down or launch is useless.

You mentioned "That trait scale very badly the more players involved but is extremely overpowered against single players". In 1 vs 1 Druid doesn't have every 10 sec a stun/daze/knock down or launch. Even with pet's ability. On the same page, the opponent should have skills to get out from the roots.

As I already said, Ancient Seeds is the thing for why the Druid is played these days. Otherwise Druid himself is kinda useless in WvW or sPVP.

Take this out and you can RIP Druid for good.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

On 5/25/2021 at 10:47 PM, Shaogin.2679 said:

Honestly, this has already been explained to death in another thread, and I no longer have the energy cause I'm willing to bet that people asking for nerfs have no intention of listening to reason. Do everyone a favor and play the build for yourself and come to realize how silly asking to nerf this build is on your own.

 

Basically this.  People that are bad at the game will literally look at any build they died to and call it 'OP'.  

 

For one, Pets are slow with the good condi-Druid build (WS/NM/Druid) as you have no Beastmastery--so it often requires swapping at inopportune times to get the pet to CC.  If you take other traitlines you are just hampering yourself.  So to even CC you have to most likely enter CA and try for a Lunar Impact, when you can just be CC'd out of that really easy yourself. 

 

Essentially it boils down to a spec that is good at pinning straggler targets with well timed concussion shots, but that can fail easy enough with defenses (reflect, block, etc.).

 

For roaming, you cannot down a good Holosmith or Deadeye with this build, and you will stalemate good thieves, weavers, and bunkers in general (due to cleanse).  You will also straight lose to something like a power soulbeast because of the range it has.  

 

Also the build loses ALL effectiveness in group settings.  

Edited June 1, 2021 by Gotejjeken.1267

[anduriell.6280]

12 minutes ago, Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

As I already said, Ancient Seeds is the thing for why the Druid is played these days. Otherwise Druid himself is kinda useless in WvW or sPVP.

Take this out and you can RIP Druid for good.

It will be cast every 10s-15s in a normal combat, more often if there are more players involved up to every 10s. 

Either way i agree with you, Druid only has that obnoxious mechanic to keep griefing players in WvW and PvP . 

 

Keeping that mechanic because the Druid does not have anything else to offer instead reworking the class is not a solution. 

 

 

 

[Dragonzhunter.8506]

9 minutes ago, anduriell.6280 said:

It will be cast every 10s-15s in a normal combat, more often if there are more players involved up to every 10s. 

Either way i agree with you, Druid only has that obnoxious mechanic to keep griefing players in WvW and PvP . 

 

Keeping that mechanic because the Druid does not have anything else to offer instead reworking the class is not a solution. 

 

 

 

 

Anduriell, Ranger was the most nerfed class in last few patches. Even in the last one. So, how can they rework Druid or Ranger Core or even Soulbeast, to work properly, when are other classes more OP in many ways? 

Why you and other players who are playing different classes than Ranger, are coming here and ask to nerf a class who was already nerfed for so many times, when the class you are playing has a bigger issue? 

[Widmo.3186]

Like cmon, druid is just an useless class that spams immobilize, if you take Ancient Seeds its gonna be also useless class but without spamming immobilize. Thats all this class does, i dont see what "condi" part has to deal with it.

You can read that post with or w/o sarcasm, I dont really care. Personally Id love this trait to be deleted tho, so I can save my muscle energy from not rolling my eyes everytime I see a moving circus that neither deals damage, nor provides support, just spams roots. Actually I admire ppl that play it, reminds me that humans can see fun in everything, even watching paint dry.

[lodjur.1284]

10 hours ago, Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

So, from your POV Ancient Seeds is bad , just because it is something who is working, but otherwise Druid is fine, again because without Ancient Seeds you could beat him, right, mr. Elementalis?

Actually, I've played maybe 20-30 hours of elementalist over the last few months, it's never really been my main either.

 

Also you're implying I don't already beat em, 1v1 the trait is incredibly unhealthy, but eh hardly unique in that way and condi druid is relatively easy to beat on most builds.

 

However in say a 2v1 or just adding onto an already 10v4 or whatever, the fact that 1 person doing nothing but staff 11111111 from 1200 range with several mobility skills/stealth ready (ie you cant focus them) becomes possibly the biggest issue you have is kinda, disturbing.

 

I just think that the game needs less CC, especially passive CC, a trait on a 10 (!!!???) sec cd that CCs the target if they're already CCed contributes to the CC spam, that you can proc it from 1200 range with staff (non-projectile weapon with a mobility skill) means you can play ultra safe and just +1 onto fights in a very unhealthy way.

 

If ancient seeds had a maximum range of say 300, I would mostly be fine with the trait, I still think it wouldn't make much sense on druid and that the game needs less CC overall.

 

If ancient seeds was just 1 big chunk of immob instead of pulsing immob it would also be a lot more reasonable in those fights.

10 hours ago, Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

The Ancient Seeds is the thing for why ppl are playing Druid these days. Without this trait nobody would play Druid in WvW or sPVP.

You think that's an argument in favor of keeping the trait... That kinda highlights the problem rather. I am all for trying to give druid some kinda identity in WvW beyond ancient seeds, but it's kinda hard with how PvE focused druid really is beyond 1 incredibly busted trait that carries an otherwise mediocre traitline.

[Lazze.9870]

On 5/27/2021 at 12:44 AM, LilBiM.3581 said:

I would recommend that Daze be toned down on Druid so that it is instead used skillfully to interrupt skills rather than outright offensively so that the combination of Ancient Seeds, SB 5 and Druid Lunar Impact would not be as oppressive as it is now.

 

So it's okay for other classes to have longlasting CCs (2 seconds of daze is relatively tame), but on druid is has to "skillfully interrupt".

 

The problem is Ancient Seeds. Always was. This abomination shouldn't exist to begin with. Lunar Impact is fine, and by fine I mean that most of the time it is one out of two skills worth using at all.

 

CA has repeatedly taken hits because of Druidic Clarity and Celestial Shadow, we don't need to add Ancient Seeds to that list. Why is this so kitten hard for people to realize? Fix the traits, stop nerfing the mechanic.

Edited June 2, 2021 by Lazze.9870

[Dragonzhunter.8506]

11 hours ago, lodjur.1284 said:

However in say a 2v1 or just adding onto an already 10v4 or whatever, the fact that 1 person doing nothing but staff 11111111 from 1200 range with several mobility skills/stealth ready (ie you cant focus them) becomes possibly the biggest issue you have is kinda, disturbing.

You have right, this kind of skill shouldn't be available for Druid. But it is ok for the Elementalist (1 person), using Staff>Meteor Shower from 1200 range to do so much damage, that can down 5 ppl in just 2-3 seconds. (was just an example)

 

11 hours ago, lodjur.1284 said:

Actually, I've played maybe 20-30 hours of elementalist over the last few months, it's never really been my main either.

 

Also you're implying I don't already beat em, 1v1 the trait is incredibly unhealthy, but eh hardly unique in that way and condi druid is relatively easy to beat on most builds.

 So, what are you saying? Even with his "shouldn't exist trait" Druid is easy to beat on most builds? .... I don't get it, what are you complain about? Or maybe you are asking Anet to delete this trait but give Druid other buffs so he can be the one who can beat easily an Elementalist on most builds? I doubt, because if this will happen, you'll come here again an you'll ask to nerf Druid, who knows maybe you will ask to give him back the Ancient Sees. "Something is rotten in the State of Denmark".

 

 

[lodjur.1284]

46 minutes ago, Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

You have right, this kind of skill shouldn't be available for Druid. But it is ok for the Elementalist (1 person), using Staff>Meteor Shower from 1200 range to do so much damage, that can down 5 ppl in just 2-3 seconds. (was just an example)

Nope, 100% in favor of nuking the vast majority of 1200 range stuff.

46 minutes ago, Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

 So, what are you saying? Even with his "shouldn't exist trait" Druid is easy to beat on most builds? .... I don't get it, what are you complain about? Or maybe you are asking Anet to delete this trait but give Druid other buffs so he can be the one who can beat easily an Elementalist on most builds? I doubt, because if this will happen, you'll come here again an you'll ask to nerf Druid, who knows maybe you will ask to give him back the Ancient Sees. "Something is rotten in the State of Denmark".

 

There's more to the game than 1v1... 

 

In any outnumbered situation Ancient seeds is an extremely horrible experience. It creates poor gameplay.

 

Also Druid shouldn't be a 1v1 powerhouse either way? It's a support...?

[Dragonzhunter.8506]

1 minute ago, lodjur.1284 said:

In any outnumbered situation Ancient seeds is an extremely horrible experience. It creates poor gameplay.

 

Also Druid shouldn't be a 1v1 powerhouse either way? It's a support...?

Ancient Seeds is zero if you have in your group an Guardian or Elementalist.

Druid is not support, was when the specialization was released, now Elementalist, Guardian or Engineer are way much better. 

Druid is just a troll class, nothing more. I am talking about WvW and sPVP, not PVE.

[lodjur.1284]

2 hours ago, Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

Ancient Seeds is zero if you have in your group an Guardian or Elementalist.

Lol

2 hours ago, Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

Druid is not support, was when the specialization was released, now Elementalist, Guardian or Engineer are way much better. 

Druid is just a troll class, nothing more. I am talking about WvW and sPVP, not PVE.

So it fails at it's identity.

 

Troll class shouldn't really exist

[Dragonzhunter.8506]

8 minutes ago, lodjur.1284 said:

So it fails at it's identity.

 

Troll class shouldn't really exist

Every class has a specialization/build who can be as troll. And among Ranger, Engineer, Thief , Necro have troll builds. 

So it's not something new.

[LilBiM.3581]

On 6/1/2021 at 4:27 PM, Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

Mr. Engineer, why don't you try to make a post about how to nerf the Engineer class. You have some things which are really OP. After that, make a Ranger, play Druid for a while, and then you are more than welcome to post your thoughts. 

Learn the class first, see what are his strong and weak spots, then make an resume and we will come with arguments pros or cons.

 

Have a nice day!

When Engineer gets nerfed it gets nerfed. I'm no longer interested in defending aspects of that class. If the Devs deem it to be over performing in any way then they should tone it down to whatever they deem to be reasonable.

 

Having said that the Daze duration on some Ranger weapon and Druid spells, allow them to ( when combined with ancient seeds ) cast them one after the other to perform a lock down that is not dissimilar to Old Scrapper with Daze on Gyzo detonation. This was deemed unreasonable and it did not have the ability to immob foes at the same time, therefore I can not see how this is reasonable to accept either.

Edited June 2, 2021 by LilBiM.3581
correcting typos.

[LilBiM.3581]

15 hours ago, Lazze.9870 said:

 

So it's okay for other classes to have longlasting CCs (2 seconds of daze is relatively tame), but on druid is has to "skillfully interrupt".

 

The problem is Ancient Seeds. Always was. This abomination shouldn't exist to begin with. Lunar Impact is fine, and by fine I mean that most of the time it is one out of two skills worth using at all.

 

CA has repeatedly taken hits because of Druidic Clarity and Celestial Shadow, we don't need to add Ancient Seeds to that list. Why is this so kitten hard for people to realize? Fix the traits, stop nerfing the mechanic.

 

At no stage did I intonate that any class should or should not have 2s Daze durations. I did say that the ability to chain many of those dazes along with immob is unreasonable. In PvP/WvW the focus should be put on players using those skills to interrupt or to cancel important opponent skills rather than to straight up chain daze as if it was a part of a regular skill rotation.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

52 minutes ago, LilBiM.3581 said:

In PvP/WvW the focus should be put on players using those skills to interrupt or to cancel important opponent skills rather than to straight up chain daze as if it was a part of a regular skill rotation.

 

Which it will be unless the player playing the druid is bad.  If a druid blows all their CC skills after Ancient Seeds procs and this isn't a vastly outnumbered fight (because if it is you've probably lost anyway), you simply target them and CC them back; they will have no means of escape, and likely fall back to camping staff (free down) or blowing CA which is pretty easy to counter.

 

Anyway, if we're going down the rabbit hole of 'chaining things is bad' then we have to look at a lot of other places, starting with thieves and stealth and engi/tempest in group boons.  As in 'stealth should be only for escaping or initial surprise, nothing else' and 'boons should get weaker the more players they are spread to' kind of thing.    

 

As a tldr; I don't see a reason to nitpick on druid when soulbeast performs far, far better in less skilled hands.  If you are getting rekt by Ancient Seeds you definitely are not downing (let alone catching) a decent soulbeast.  It has FAR more utility and burst potential.  

 

I'm also coming at this as someone who has spent countless hours roaming and group play using a druid build as described in the OP.  If anything it needs left mostly alone and some more stability added, because if someone knows how to CC (which a staggering amount of people don't looking at keep lords and break bars) it becomes a very uphill / almost unwinnable battle. 

 

As some final thoughts, watch any good druid roaming montage, it's mostly kiting around with staff over LARGE distances, because you can't hold a point worth anything.  This leads to like 3-5 minute solo fights and nothing in group play other than stalling or distracting people long enough for the real damage to arrive.  

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

The only thing Druid is good for in WvW is an immob assist for the actual zerg force to roll over.

 

You can make a Druid tanky with strong self survivability, but it can't kill anything. If you engage other roamers who are actually good, you can survive as Druid but you can't kill it. If you are tanky in a zerg you can survive, but you deal very little damage and your entire role is to assist stronger classes with immob spam.

 

Druid is bad in WvW, no matter how you try to build it. It's bad at roaming compared to other classes, it's bad at support and dps in zergs compared to other classes. Unfortunately it's just true. Druid has been nerfed too much.

 

PvP is no different, Druid is bad. It had a very short lived niche role for decap, but then GS4 knockback was nerfed, amulets were removed, and other classes were indirectly buffed into being far far superior side node, team fight, and certainly superior support presence.

 

Druid is just really bad right now. In fact, Ranger and Soulbeast are both struggling to maintain viability as well. Other things are just really strong right now.

Edited June 3, 2021 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[lodjur.1284]

9 hours ago, Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

Every class has a specialization/build who can be as troll. And among Ranger, Engineer, Thief , Necro have troll builds. 

So it's not something new.

And I am against all of them, however dealing with those is slightly harder than changing 1 strange trait that doesn't really fit into Druid anyway. 

 

Also this is the ranger forum and a thread about Druid. 

 

But sure all builds with high mobility/ range and silly CC or burst should get nuked.