Hard Mode, Heroic Mode, Ect...

[STIHL.2489]

@Ashen.2907 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@TheRandomGuy.7246 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@TheRandomGuy.7246 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:As long as it did not provide anything extra, I would be fine with a hard-mode put in for people that just like to challenge themselves.

@Ohoni.6057 said:I wouldn't mind seeing them add hard mode options, so long as it didn't make more/better loot available.

That would be an amazing train-wreck to watch. Not a single game designer would do that of-course but gw2 is special so there is hope.

Eh? I can name two Top title MMO's that already do this.

Name them. And the type of content.

Since you asked.

Dungeons and Dragons Online

. MMO, mainly Instance based dungeons and raids, with some minor 'open world' areas. It's F2P and pretty much one of the first major MMO's to go F2P. It set the stage for most other MMO's to follow. Feel free to check it out. It followers 3ed rules and has one of the most diverse build systems of any MMO out, and I assure, if you enjoy dungeon and raid content, you will not be let down.

Trove

. don't let the voxel graphics fool you, it is a very open sandbox MMO with all the features you wish other MMOs had, everything from kitten near endless Open World content with meta events like massive dragon fights, to grinding dragon mounts, as well as Instance based raid like content. It's also free to play, so drop on down and give it a try. Since in Trove, you need to get to around 16K power, before you start to see the horizontal loot for increased difficulty, it might be a bit before it dawns on you how the game is set up.

Both of these MMO's have released multiple expansions, so they are doing quite well.

Believe it or not.. I've been around a bit.. played a few other games.. ya know.. maybe I know what I am talking about.

To be fair, as much as I thought DDO had a lot going for it, and I did enjoy it, I wouldn't necessarily call it a top title MMO.

I'm not going to split hairs over what someone way feel is a "top title MMO", But DDO, it's still rocking after 11 years, and putting out it's 3rd expansion, it was owned by Warner brothers, and possess one of the most legendary IP's around., that alone would make it a top title MMO, .. but there is NO other MMO you ever play that has a dungeon narrated by Gary Gygax.

[PopeUrban.2578]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@PopeUrban.2578 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@PopeUrban.2578 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@PopeUrban.2578 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Ayumi Spender.1082 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:I wouldn't mind seeing them add hard mode options, so long as it didn't make more/better loot available.

Which would mean "Don't make it whatsoever".

Picture this:Queensdale. Shadow Behemoth. Hard Mode.Now it's going to be the same fight, just harder with maybe new attacks and doing more damage and more HP.Same exact loot like the normal one.Now except for those that's in it just for the challenge, how many people would be interested in really doing a longer battled Shadow Behemoth for the same reward?Already have people who refuse to play with certain people in fractals/raids because it takes too long. Not sure which audience they would be catering to do more work for the same pay as someone who does little work and get the same payment in the end.

Hey, people keep asking for hard mode. If they want hard mode, if there's demand for it, then that's fine, give it to them. If they just want better loot than other people get, then they should ask for that instead, and be refused.

The expectation in games that assign loot for completing challenges is that higher levels of challenge equate to more/better rewards. This is why world bosses drop better loot than deer, and why deer drop better loot than rats.

Be that as it may, asking for "better loot" under disguise of "More Challenge" is blantently dishonest. I know of one game that did exactly that, ,gave players more challenge and no added rewards, after all, they said they wanted challenge, if they just wanted more or better loot, then they should have been honest and asked for that instead.

Keep in mind that, the Lich is MUCH harder then the Horror.. yet, both drop the same loot.

Phrasing it like this somehow insinuates that the loot is the primary motivator. The primary motivator is "I would like to do harder content and would like that content to feel rewarding if I can complete it" not "I just want more loot"

And yes, the Lich/Horror example of how they stack up to each other, and even worse how they stack up to just killing a bunch of normal mobs in the area is a great example of poor loot assignment and is precisely why "skipping vis/lich" is the most popular way to do the lab. Its not that people don't want to do the content. Its that the game doesn't feel like its valuing the player's effort when it pays out as much for killing more challenging boss enemies as skipping it entirely and just killing some plastic spiders in a fraction of the time with a fraction of the danger of failure.

People don't just want more loot. People want loot appropriate to the content they're doing. When they don't get it, they'll do the content once or twice just for fun but part of the long term motivation for killing enemies

in a loot based game is in fact the loot. It's a basic paradigm of loot based games.

Potential loot is part of the fun of doing the content.

Thank, You just made it perfectly clear that

loot is the ONLY motivator,

as by your own admission, its not the challenge that is inspiring people to do the content.

All anyone is asking is that you be honest about your real intentions.. you want exclusive content with rewards only you can get. Lets not sugar coat it.

The primary motivator is "I would like to do harder content and would like that content to feel rewarding if I can complete it"

Are you telling me that earning loot is not part of the reason you complete content?

Are Asking you Me Directly?

LOL, I used to play WvW when it was a net loss. In fact, anyone that used to play WvW up till a little after HoT with the additon of reward track and the like, used to play that content for love of the game, not loot, but love of the fights and challenges.

So yah.. there was a whole population of this game that would play hard, often overwhelmingly hard due to sever stacking, just for the sheer fun of playing that content.

So again, good to know that loot is your only motivator, while you are not alone, you do not speak for everyone, and by and large, you do not speak for the PvP crowed at all.

Didn't you make a thread asking for a pity completion for the clock tower? Why would you need a pity completion if the loot doesn't interest you, you only do content for the pure enjoyment,

I explained (several times over) that I simply wanted to save myself the tedium of grinding up tailoring, (but.. since I don't have PoF I had to craft the pants anyway) so it manly a moot topic. funny to see how much salt was generated and I might add, STILL being generated.. but moot none the less.

This thread, as I understood it, wasn't about PvP. It was about PvE. I don't understand why you're being so hostile to the notion of completing things to get loot. Its not as if its a new concept in GW2 specifically, or RPGs in general. PvP players and WvW players complained en masse that the content they were doing was unrewarding. That's why anet made improvements to those gametypes to make the loot rewards feel more appropriate for the time and effort invested in the content. Because those players were absolutely right. Its silly to have a game in which the economy is built around loot, and then not reward extra effort or difficulty with better or larger quantities of said loot.

I certainly don't claim to speak for everyone, and I never claimed to speak for you, but I think its a fair statement that the majority of the player base, in all game modes, views collecting loot as part of the motivation for continuing to play, as evidenced by improvements to loot balance since launch due largely to player feedback and anet's own collection of player activity metrics.

And again, you keep stating I've stated loot is the "only motivator" which is, again, incorrect. I don't know why you insist on phrasing it this way, or why you seem surprised that a game with loot uses it as a reward for content, specifically a sequel in a franchise (and genre) that has historically counted collecting loot as one of its staple features. Lots of games have loot. People that enjoy loot systems tend to stick to the ones that are fun and have fun loot. People that find loot annoying tend to avoid games with loot systems. People tend to also avoid games with loot that aren't fun to play.

Side note: You didn't have to craft the pants. Awakened are invading many points in core tyria and you can kill them without owning PoF if you still want an extra achievement :)

[STIHL.2489]

@PopeUrban.2578 said:This thread, as I understood it, wasn't about PvP. It was about PvE.

Lets get this clear, you asked about if people play this game for greater challenge with less reward. and yes they do. You don't get to move the goal posts because you got shot down.

I don't understand why you're being so hostile to the notion of completing things to get loot. Its not as if its a new concept in GW2 specifically, or RPGs in general.

My gripe is when people ask for "Challenge" under the disguise of really wanting 'More/Better/Special" loot. Sorry, that is just dishonest. If you just want loot, get back to grinding with everyone else. Don't ask for "challenge" when what you really was is more loot. Ask for more loot, and be upfront with your real motive.

That should not be to much ask for anyone, to at least be legit about what they really want.

Also, lets get this clear, if you are fretting over Gold/Hour, your still at work, an treating the game like it's your job, and fusing about how much you are getting paid to play. Just go find the best Gold/Hour grind and do that, there is no need to ask for anything more from the game, when that is all you wanted to start with.

Side note: You didn't have to craft the pants. Awakened are invading many points in core tyria and you can kill them without owning PoF if you still want an extra achievement :)

Killing Awakened won't get me to finish the Labyrinth race in under 2 minutes. I really need a mount to pull that one off.

But I was rather amazed (and not in a good way) at how pithy people were about some stupid JP award regarding a campy little festival like the Mad King.

[PopeUrban.2578]

Stihl, look, I don't understand why this is a difficult concept for you. If people specifically just wanted more loot they wouldn't be begging for content that makes it harder to get. They'd just ask for drops for the current level of content to be improved.

People don't JUST want more loot. They want loot to be appropriate to the challenge undertaken, AND they want more challenging content. You're phrasing this as an either-or scenario and it really isn't. People don't necessarily want either challenge OR loot. In cases like this one the motive is very clearly stated. People want both, not one or the other, because they find either or to be unsatisfactory. Many people don't like taking on greater challenge without greater reward, and find it boring to simply be given greater rewards without doing anything particularly challenging.

While I realize this is not how you specifically decide whether or not to complete content, I find your continual deliberate blindness to this very simple to understand concept baffling. You must understand that this particular set of motivations is common enough among players that the basic risk/reward paradigm of the majority of loot reward systems obeys it as a convention. You must also understand that a majority of opinion is not a monopoly of opinion. That there are certainly people whos ONLY motivation is loot, or whos ONLY motivation is challenge. However, we do not live in a world where those are two opposing factions forever locked in eternal war because a large number, if not the majority of players occupy a space somewhere in between those two poles.

If you still don't understand that this is not an either-or discussion I don't really know any better way to explain it to you. I suspect you are being willfully obtuse specifically to try to harvest lulz and bait people anyway.

As a side note, you can finish the race in under two minutes on foot. Its still worth it for the loot or challenge, whichever you prefer. Try it with a daredevil if you have one, or join a squad specifically doing that. Its definitely not as easy as doing it with a mount, but it is possible. One of the lab farms I was in was really nice and helped someone do it this way when they asked.

[Ohoni.6057]

@PopeUrban.2578 said:Stihl, look, I don't understand why this is a difficult concept for you. If people specifically just wanted more loot they wouldn't be begging for content that makes it harder to get. They'd just ask for drops for the current level of content to be improved.

Well, but if everybody got more loot then it would just seem like the loot stayed the same. The important thing is that special people like the OP get the loot, while the general plebeians do not. What they want is the title of "Zinc Saucier."

At the end of the day, it comes down to that while people might want special loot that is only for them, they are not entitled to it, and hopefully ANet does not indulge them.

[TheRandomGuy.7246]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@PopeUrban.2578 said:Stihl, look, I don't understand why this is a difficult concept for you. If people specifically just wanted more loot they wouldn't be begging for content that makes it harder to get. They'd just ask for drops for the current level of content to be improved.

Well, but if

everybody

got more loot then it would just seem like the loot stayed the same.

If everybody gets more loot then everybody gets more loot.

Tho if you think about it... reward system in this game is so bad that getting more loot is actually a punishment.

[STIHL.2489]

@PopeUrban.2578 said:Stihl, look, I don't understand why this is a difficult concept for you. If people specifically just wanted more loot they wouldn't be begging for content that makes it harder to get. They'd just ask for drops for the current level of content to be improved.

People don't JUST want more loot. They want loot to be appropriate to the challenge undertaken, AND they want more challenging content. You're phrasing this as an either-or scenario and it really isn't. People don't necessarily want either challenge OR loot. In cases like this one the motive is very clearly stated. People want both, not one or the other, because they find either or to be unsatisfactory. Many people don't like taking on greater challenge without greater reward, and find it boring to simply be given greater rewards without doing anything particularly challenging.

As Ohoni said It's about wanting special or exclusive loot, often under the disguise that they need to make content harder to ween out those you feel are undeserving of same loot as you. It's really nothing more then an insidious way to beg for the developers to give you way to flaunt your e-peen.

Just loot at what happened on my other topic, people became so inconsolable and petty about a jump puzzle at a stupid campy festival, fusing about how it would invalidate how great they are, or some such nonsense. It's better to admit your real motive.

With that said, really, did you miss what game you were playing? Being great at GW2 is like being the fastest person in a Marching Band, or having the best tan at a goth festival.

Are you catching what I am laying down here?

lets get clear, if you wanted challenging content, there are a legion of other MMOs out there, GW2, by its inception was never about placating peoples vanity and ego, it was about designing a game around fun first.

PvE in GW2, is like the retirement home of MMO's, you know, where people go to get away from the real challenging MMOs out there, To come here and ask for more challenge, like dude, if you wanted challenge , why did you come here? That is like going to the dog park looking for a place to run... that is like taking your fishing pole to a vacation at the dead sea.. are you getting what I am laying down here?

As such, if you are coming here asking for challenge, your motive is really just ask for loot you don't want other people to get. Ergo.. it's all about the loot.

As a side note, you can finish the race in under two minutes on foot. Its still worth it for the loot or challenge, whichever you prefer. Try it with a daredevil if you have one, or join a squad specifically doing that. Its definitely not as easy as doing it with a mount, but it is possible. One of the lab farms I was in was really nice and helped someone do it this way when they asked.

Humm.. Nope.. refuse to play a thief (an I'll be damned if I will play one long enough to get an elite spec).. tried with an Ele with Traveler Runes.. still not much luck..

[PopeUrban.2578]

The crux of this argument Stihl now, and Ohoni (who I've had this debate with before) hang upon is, specifically "people only ask for harder content because they want to lord rare loot over plebs"

And feel free to tell yourselves that all you like. I don't doubt for a moment that this is specifically the motivation of some players. What you seem to fail to understand is that this is not the motivation of literally every single player that wants to be rewarded accordingly for completing content.

The reality is it isn't ABOUT lording the loot over anybody. It's about finishing a world boss where one acquires a guaranteed rare, and then finishing, let's say, one of the raids, or a challenge mode 100 fractal... and recieving the same loot feeling ultimately unrewarding.

Your desire to make literally everything about you misses the point here. It isn't about you. You can put words in people's mouths all you like, but the consensus is not "I don't want other people to have things" it's, quite simply "I want to feel rewarded for content I complete." People want to have special shiny bits for completing tougher content. Yes. That is not in dispute. What neither of you seems to understand is that it has nothing to do with exclusivity. These rewards are not exclusive. The content itself is sitting there, waiting to be completed, by every player. Just like every collection achievement, every map completion award, and every piece of loot dropping from every mob in the game.

Specifically, what you're asking for is "I want to have access to everything by doing only the narrow part of content I personally enjoy." where as those who want to be rewarded well for completing specific content are saying "I want to be rewarded this specific thing for completing this specific bit of content."

As to Stihl's point about GW2 being the "retirement home" of MMOs... that's not a position arenanet seems to agree with. They've gone out of their way to add additional, challenging content, with exclusive rewards for completing that content, since the beginning of the game. Its a core design concept of risk versus reward. They've expanded it from its roots in the release dungeons, to the scaling difficulty of the fractal system, to the tightly designed raid encounters, challenge modes, story mode achievement challenges, and various collections tied to specific content. Over two expansions and countless live patches the game has kept pace with its core open world content, which is designed to be accessible, while simultaneously expanding on its more challenging content. They've done so without withholding mechanical power from players that would gate them from attempting to complete that content specifically to make that content as approachable as possible for new players that may want to engage with it.

The idea that players are not entitled to rewards that are reflective of content completed begs the question: why do we have rewards for completing content? If the point of loot is not as reward for completing pve content, then why does it exist? Why don't we just remove inventories from the game. Why have loot drop at all from anything if players aren't entitled to rewards relative to successfully completing encounters?

Why require players to play PoF to gain sunspear or elonian skins if players aren't entitled to rewards reflective of content completed? Why doesn't purchasing the expansion simply unlock the skins and new stat sets?

GW2 does not seem to be the game you both think it is, and I'm not sure it ever really has been. It seems to be a game interested in serving a large and diverse player base with a diverse level of game types and challenge levels with a diverse number of reward types relative to that content. The problem you both seem to have with it that you believe you're entitled to everything while only doing the things you want to do for it. Please correct me if I misunderstand you here because I don't want to put words in your mouths.

And there's merit in a system like that, sure. Many games exist where this is possible.

GW2 isn't one of them, never has been, and seems to be incrementally moving further away from, rather than closer to that approach to loot. In fact, over time it seems it has worked very hard to offer a diverse array of content with an ever more diverse amount of challenge levels, and assigns specific rewards for specific content. I understand your point and I'm not going to try and put words in your mouths here. I disagree with you, and specifically I find it puzzling that you see loot in GW2 as something that has been historically non-exclusive and worry about changing the game in to something different. From my vantage, I see the specific point of content based rewards as one of the core mechanisms by which the game has always worked.

You're free to dislike the way the game works, you're free to disagree with the implementation of loot, but I don't get why you're going out of your way to tell me the game does something it obviously does not. Nobody across the fence for you in this debate is asking for any radical shift in gameplay mechanics. They're literally asking for more of what the game already does. They're asking for the same exact GW2 they've been playing for quite a while.

[Joxer.6024]

Sometimes its fun to just kill the Dragon....period.No loot required, desired or hired. Just because you could do it, it was fun, had fun with friends? whilst doing it and to quote an awesome movie: "But, if it's any consolation to you, you have put a smile on my face." :p

[STIHL.2489]

If the request is for harder content, and that content to provide better or exclusive rewards, then, no matter how you slice it, the driving motive behind the request is elitism, nothing else, there is absolutely zero other motives. Sure people may try to play off some kind of other more noble motive, but once you strip away the cliches, and the parroting, it really comes down to a single minded focus "I want something the plebes can't get, because I feel I am better then them, and want something to prove it" now, some people have been honest enough to just admit, and once they do, we spare ourselves the prattling about how that is not the real underlying motive, and get right to.. "why should they get this". It's hard, because most people don't want to face how ignoble their goals are, it hard some days to realize that, the emotive really is that petty. That the only way some people can have fun, is if they are denying other people the same ability to enjoy the game. I get it, no one wants to really be exposed as being that shallow, so all kinds of parroted and red herrings get tossed up, that, that is not their motive. But, strip away the loot, and they will all, every last one of them, admit that it's not worth doing. Ergo.. is not, nor has or will be.. a love of the challenge. At least as never among the people that ask for it that way. The people that love the game for the game, like the WvW players, first played the content, loved the content, wanted more of it, and there is nothing wrong with expecting content to at least be as rewarding as their PvE counter part. In that case, it was asking for equal rewards, not better.. not more.. equal.

Lets talk about challenge for a bit. Not buying it, after all the crying about removing WvW map completion to get legendary weapons because it was too hard, to come back and ask for more challenging content, Nahhhh.. sorry. Not buying that song, at all. Again, sounds like nothing but some farmer wanting something to either sell for a lot on the BL, or some elitist who wants something to flaunt

[FrizzFreston.5290]

@Ohoni.6057 said:Hey, people keep asking for hard mode. If they want hard mode, if there's demand for it, then that's fine, give it to them. If they just want better loot than other people get, then they should ask for that instead, and be refused.

I think players are more interested in appropriately rewarded content. If something takes longer, people like to have more reward for that. If somethings is harder, more reward.

Balancing between those is never perfect with people taking either less time or being able to pass certain obstacles faster simply through subjective differences in skill and playstyle. Even within the same content, just by being a better player in general, you get more rewards already. (or just simply said: faster)

[Dyfinz.2348]

@STIHL.2489 said:

1. If the request is for harder content, and that content to provide better or exclusive rewards, then, no matter how you slice it, the driving motive behind the request is elitism, nothing else, there is absolutely zero other motives. Sure people may try to play off some kind of other more noble motive, but once you strip away the cliches, and the parroting, it really comes down to a single minded focus "I want something the plebes can't get, because I feel I am better then them, and want something to prove it" now, some people have been honest enough to just admit, and once they do, we spare ourselves the prattling about how that is not the real underlying motive, and get right to.. "why should they get this". It's hard, because most people don't want to face how ignoble their goals are, it hard some days to realize that, the emotive really is that petty. That the only way some people can have fun, is if they are denying other people the same ability to enjoy the game. I get it, no one wants to really be exposed as being that shallow, so all kinds of parroted and red herrings get tossed up, that, that is not their motive. But, strip away the loot, and they will all, every last one of them, admit that it's not worth doing. Ergo.. is not, nor has or will be.. a love of the challenge. At least as never among the people that ask for it that way. The people that love the game for the game, like the WvW players, first played the content, loved the content, wanted more of it, and there is nothing wrong with expecting content to at least be as rewarding as their PvE counter part. In that case, it was asking for equal rewards, not better.. not more.. equal.
2. Lets talk about challenge for a bit. Not buying it, after all the crying about removing WvW map completion to get legendary weapons because it was too hard, to come back and ask for more challenging content, Nahhhh.. sorry. Not buying that song, at all. Again, sounds like nothing but some farmer wanting something to either sell for a lot on the BL, or some elitist who wants something to flaunt

Rewards and a title are nice. Being elite would be great. I am not elite.; I'll buy fashion with real world money (credit to gems) if I want something special.But I love the core maps, (the atmosphere, ambient music, ect), especially Ascalon maps. and I think a hard mode of sorts would be invigorating. I like playing in those areas but they can quickly become un-challening. Even if the loot was the same, sometimes I just want to pass time doing something I consider enjoyable. ...in this case Hard Mode core maps.Also if this was a purchase from Anet or BL upgrade I would pay the full price as if it was an expansion, and while some forum regulars may doubt it, I am willing to bet others would also pay for it.

I am not arguing as to why others may do harder content, but consider this:

• When you play a game on console that is not on the internet/online, do you choose the easiest mode? Do you ever consider the hardest, as a personal challenge?

The hardest of modes are not for everyone, certainly, but an enhanced challenge for core maps would be welcomed, rest assured.

[STIHL.2489]

@Dyfinz.2348 said:

I am not arguing as to why others may do harder content, but consider this:

• When you play a game on console that is not on the internet/online, do you choose the easiest mode? Do you ever consider the hardest, as a personal challenge?

The hardest of modes are not for everyone, certainly, but an enhanced challenge for core maps would be welcomed, rest assured.

It's been years since I have played a single player game.

With that said, I have too often seen the same rehashed statements said over and over again, about how it is the challenge and not the loot, and with out a doubt across ever game, eventually, often because the content gets put in, and the veil gets stripped away and it becomes evident that it was all about the loot, all along.

do I ever believe that some people do things purely for the challenge.. of course.. do I believe those people would come to the forums, and wail and wallow about wanting more challenge coupled with "rewarding" loot.. Never.

[Ohoni.6057]

@PopeUrban.2578 said:The crux of this argument Stihl now, and Ohoni (who I've had this debate with before) hang upon is, specifically "people only ask for harder content because they want to lord rare loot over plebs"

Well, it's a very easy argument to refute, just don't provide the rare loot to lord over plebs, and see what happens.

Your desire to make literally everything about you misses the point here. It isn't about you. You can put words in people's mouths all you like, but the consensus is not "I don't want other people to have things" it's, quite simply "I want to feel rewarded for content I complete." People want to have special shiny bits for completing tougher content. Yes. That is not in dispute. What neither of you seems to understand is that it has nothing to do with exclusivity. These rewards are not exclusive. The content itself is sitting there, waiting to be completed, by every player. Just like every collection achievement, every map completion award, and every piece of loot dropping from every mob in the game.

That rings hollow to me. The way I feel about it is, if people want recognition that they completed some task, that is fine to me. Let it be an achievement, maybe a title, a "trophy," something that says that they did that thing and serves no other purpose. But if you have an item that has inherent value, a skin, for example, something that a player could reasonably look at and go "I want that, how can I get that?," then it should not be gated behind content that is not suitable for all players. And despite your protestations that "anyone can do it," that's not good enough, it has to be content that everyone would want to do for the content itself. Content that is hard enough that it satisfies players who want "hard content* will NEVER be casual enough that it will satisfy players who want casual content, and to pretend otherwise is disingenuous at best. Players should not be drawn into content that they will not enjoy completing, in search of loot that they want to acquire.

The idea that players are not entitled to rewards that are reflective of content completed begs the question: why do we have rewards for completing content? If the point of loot is not as reward for completing pve content, then why does it exist? Why don't we just remove inventories from the game. Why have loot drop at all from anything if players aren't entitled to rewards relative to successfully completing encounters?

It's good to have players feel rewarded for spending time in the game, for completing activities, for participating and being engaged in the content. But it's good to reward them for doing the parts of the game that they enjoy. There is no benefit to rewarding players for not having fun.

@FrizzFreston.5290 said:

I think players are more interested in appropriately rewarded content. If something takes longer, people like to have more reward for that. If somethings is harder, more reward.

I think that if something takes more time, it's fine for it to offer more loot. I mean, if a hard mode version of an event always takes twice as long to complete as an easy mode version, then sure, it can provide twice as much of the same loot. It should not provide a better quality of loot, however. As for "more difficult" providing more loot, no, because challenge is relative, and what might be "difficult but achievable" for one player might be impossible for another, while that second player might find the normal mode version no less "difficult but achievable" than the harder version is for the first player. Why should he deserve less loot for playing to the best of his capabilities? Just let people play the version that they enjoy playing.

When you play a game on console that is not on the internet/online, do you choose the easiest mode? Do you ever consider the hardest, as a personal challenge?

I typically play "normal mode," whatever setting the developers choose to default to. I can't remember the last time I've dropped down to an "easy mode" below normal, and it's been over a decade since I've bothered with an "harder mode" either. Usually normal modes are balanced out to be within my comfort zone, and I really don't feel any need to push myself beyond that. I think they're fine to have available though.

[STIHL.2489]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@PopeUrban.2578 said:The crux of this argument Stihl now, and Ohoni (who I've had this debate with before) hang upon is, specifically "people only ask for harder content because they want to lord rare loot over plebs"

Well, it's a very easy argument to refute, just don't provide the rare loot to lord over plebs, and see what happens.

But.. they have already admitted that without the loot, they won't do the content.. so..

[maddoctor.2738]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@PopeUrban.2578 said:The crux of this argument Stihl now, and Ohoni (who I've had this debate with before) hang upon is, specifically "people only ask for harder content because they want to lord rare loot over plebs"

Well, it's a very easy argument to refute, just don't provide the rare loot to lord over plebs, and see what happens.

But.. they have already admitted that without the loot, they won't do the content.. so..

Check out all the threads about PoF meta events and bounties. The number one reason for not doing those is "rewards" so I guess adding new events in the game with bad rewards helped a lot with PoF right?

[STIHL.2489]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@PopeUrban.2578 said:The crux of this argument Stihl now, and Ohoni (who I've had this debate with before) hang upon is, specifically "people only ask for harder content because they want to lord rare loot over plebs"

Well, it's a very easy argument to refute, just don't provide the rare loot to lord over plebs, and see what happens.

But.. they have already admitted that without the loot, they won't do the content.. so..

Check out all the threads about PoF meta events and bounties. The number one reason for not doing those is "rewards" so I guess adding new events in the game with bad rewards helped a lot with PoF right?

Thank you very much, for validating what we already know, that it is all about the loot. The challenge is by and large irrelevant, unless it serves the purpose to gate the loot away from people the elitist feel are undeserving. This is why, there is such a fuss about gold/hour rewards, and farms among that same group of players.

So, tell me, how much easier would bounties need to be to make them a "decent" loot/effort ratio?

[maddoctor.2738]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@PopeUrban.2578 said:The crux of this argument Stihl now, and Ohoni (who I've had this debate with before) hang upon is, specifically "people only ask for harder content because they want to lord rare loot over plebs"

Well, it's a very easy argument to refute, just don't provide the rare loot to lord over plebs, and see what happens.

But.. they have already admitted that without the loot, they won't do the content.. so..

Check out all the threads about PoF meta events and bounties. The number one reason for not doing those is "rewards" so I guess adding new events in the game with bad rewards helped a lot with PoF right?

Thank you very much, for validating what we already know, that it is all about the loot. The challenge is by and large irrelevant, unless it serves the purpose to gate the loot away from people the elitist feel are undeserving. This is why, there is such a fuss about gold/hour rewards, and farms among that same group of players.

So, tell me, how much easier would bounties need to be to make them a "decent" loot/effort ratio?

Every piece of content needs appropriate rewards. They don't need to make bounties easier, they need to make them more rewarding for their current difficulty, same with every other piece of content. The easiest way to balance rewards among content is to give each piece of content its own rewards, because balancing the gold income is impossible.

Btw adding a hard mode on maps is something I already said is not a good idea at all.

[FrizzFreston.5290]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@FrizzFreston.5290 said:

I think players are more interested in appropriately rewarded content. If something takes longer, people like to have more reward for that. If somethings is harder, more reward.

I think that if something takes more time, it's fine for it to offer more loot. I mean, if a hard mode version of an event

always

takes twice as long to complete as an easy mode version, then sure, it can provide twice as much of the same loot. It should not provide a better quality of loot, however. As for "more difficult" providing more loot, no, because challenge is relative, and what might be "difficult but achievable" for one player might be impossible for another, while that second player might find the normal mode version no less "difficult but achievable" than the harder version is for the first player. Why should he deserve less loot for playing to the best of his capabilities? Just let people play the version that they enjoy playing.

Well doing something faster is harder and also gives more loot. There's little to no way around that. Having a hard mode which is harder providing more loot doesn't really mean much at all other than possibly higher entertainment value for those who enjoy the game at a harder level. Ofcourse, there's no sensible way to calculate equal rewards for something in a harder version, as people have different learning curves they can deal with. So even if they model out the rewards as some sort of time vs reward thing being as equal as possible, it will never be truly equal. Even at such a point where it doesn't matter which difficulty you play at, people are alot easier to be bored. It becomes a skinner box example where players just press a button and get a reward. Pof proofs that with lot's of people saying they are already done with it. Because it doesn't provide that extra layer of difficulty and reward. Everything in PoF rewards about the same amount. Kill a mob you can get 25 trade contracts.. do an event, open a chest.. it all seems to have very similar rewards. And thus, people get bored.

(Even if I think PoF might actually have alot higher rewards in general (prices did crash for a reason guys), it just doesn't feel like it does.)

This is ofcourse why no game developer is going to reward equal rewards (if there are any) for different tasks. It's simply not interesting.

[Ohoni.6057]

@maddoctor.2738 said:Check out all the threads about PoF meta events and bounties. The number one reason for not doing those is "rewards" so I guess adding new events in the game with bad rewards helped a lot with PoF right?

Yeah, the thing is, nobody is saying "don't put enough reward behind a given activity," you do want rewards enough that people feel their time is well spent, it just shouldn't be so much that people doing other things feel short-changed, and it shouldn't be unique loot that would encourage players to grind the content even if they don't enjoy that sort of gameplay. It's a tricky balance to achieve, but it's always best to err on the side of player choice.

@FrizzFreston.5290 said:Well doing something faster is harder and also gives more loot. There's little to no way around that. Having a hard mode which is harder providing more loot doesn't really mean much at all other than possibly higher entertainment value for those who enjoy the game at a harder level. Ofcourse, there's no sensible way to calculate equal rewards for something in a harder version, as people have different learning curves they can deal with.

I agree that it's almost impossible to get perfect, but my point is, they should try to balance it out to be roughly equal over time. If it definitely takes longer to complete then it can provide more reward, but I've played plenty of games and encounters within this one in which the "hard mode" takes no more time to complete than "the easy mode" if you have an equally skilled and coordinated group of players. If you have a "hard mode" in which it would take 2-3 times as long for a small, random, inefficient PUG to clear it as if that same group were to attempt the "easy mode" version, so you decide to triple the loot it offers for completion, but then a highly efficient group can clear it relatively risk-free and in the same time as the "easy mode" version, then that just means they get three times the loot for the same amount of time and actual effort, so why would anyone do the easy mode?

The goal should be parity, but of course they will almost inevitably be off in one direction or another, regardless of intentions.

Pof proofs that with lot's of people saying they are already done with it. Because it doesn't provide that extra layer of difficulty and reward. Everything in PoF rewards about the same amount. Kill a mob you can get 25 trade contracts.. do an event, open a chest.. it all seems to have very similar rewards. And thus, people get bored.

I don't think that has anything to do with it. People don't tend to run the PoF events because they are unfocused, because it's hard to tell which events are up across the map, and which ones have active people doing them, which in most cases is "no one" because people are more focused on their own goals, like HP farming, collections, etc. I haven't spent a lot of time in the PoF maps this month because of Halloween, but what time I spent there before was mostly about getting HPs for my alts, little sidequests, nothing to do with events. I don't think adding new rewards to bounties would make people want to do them more, even if the result was that they did do them more.

[STIHL.2489]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@PopeUrban.2578 said:The crux of this argument Stihl now, and Ohoni (who I've had this debate with before) hang upon is, specifically "people only ask for harder content because they want to lord rare loot over plebs"

Well, it's a very easy argument to refute, just don't provide the rare loot to lord over plebs, and see what happens.

But.. they have already admitted that without the loot, they won't do the content.. so..

Check out all the threads about PoF meta events and bounties. The number one reason for not doing those is "rewards" so I guess adding new events in the game with bad rewards helped a lot with PoF right?

Thank you very much, for validating what we already know, that it is all about the loot. The challenge is by and large irrelevant, unless it serves the purpose to gate the loot away from people the elitist feel are undeserving. This is why, there is such a fuss about gold/hour rewards, and farms among that same group of players.

So, tell me, how much easier would bounties need to be to make them a "decent" loot/effort ratio?

Every piece of content needs appropriate rewards. They don't need to make bounties easier, they need to make them more rewarding for their current difficulty, same with every other piece of content. The easiest way to balance rewards among content is to give each piece of content its own rewards, because balancing the gold income is impossible.

There are two ways to handle reward.

1. Adjust the difficulty of the Content.
2. Adjust the Reward.

Now arguably, it would seem easier to just adjust the reward, then to change the difficult of an event. But both have happened.

None the less, if the reward does not feel equal to the effort, either it needs to take less effort or give more reward. This is where we split. See people who only think about the loot, would focus on the reward aspect of adjustment, what they get for their time, the people looking to enjoy the game, would focus on how hard or easy an encounter is, and want to adjust that to be the most enjoyable, regardless of reward.

Which brings us to, what is really hard or challenging. I see all to often people fuss that rewards for T4 fracatls need to be more then World Bosses, because the bosses are too easy. Ok.. fair statement from an individual point of view. But, can you beat Teq with only 5 people? Often times it takes upward to 40+ people to have an effective drop, and just because some elitist players run around doing nothing, contribute only to the scaling, does not in fact mean the encounter is easy, it means it's easy to hide that you are dead weight. There is a massive difference between those two things.

The encounter itself is impossible for 5 people to do, no matter what their DPS, or gear, we both know this, and I encourage you to try and prove me wrong. As such, since it is in fact harder then any fractal out there, then by the logic of difficulty/reward, it should reward better loot. But I am going to bet you will disagree with that. And while, you may fall back on "well, it was easy for me, I didn't have to do anything" again, that does not make Teq easy or even easier then any raid out here, it just means it was easier for you to be totally worthless in larger world boss events, and not be directly noticed. Much in the same way, I have carried people though T2 and T3 fractals, I am sure they felt "oh this is easy" well.. when you are being carried by people better then you, doing more then you, then yes.. .. things can seem easy. And that is what all these elitist talk about when they discuss how easy world bosses are.. they are just dead weight being carried by a larger group that is putting in far more effort to win, then they are.

So, when we talk about Difficulty, the scales can and are very deceiving on what should be rewarding better stuff, which is why it is very hard to judge objectivaly what should provide what reward. As everyone feels their gamemode should provide the best rewards.

Case in point, I could take the stand that because I love WvW, I think because of that PvP challenge which will always be harder then any scripted PvE encounter, it should give the best rewards in the game.. and I would not be wrong in believing that. I am sure people who love raids, people who love world bosses, people who love map exploration, people who love jump puzzles.. could all say the same thing "My content is difficult, it should offer the best rewards" and, truth is, no one is special in this regard, everyone feels this way. And. in may ways, they are right... at least in their own minds.

But.. they are playing what they enjoy, they are not simply pursuing the rewards. Anyone that is only pursuing rewards, or will only do content for the rewards, really has no other thought on their mind, loot drives them to do the content, in short, Loot is their only focus, thus, the second they talk about anything else... Loot remains their underlying motive.

When they make a request for harder content, and then there is the "Oh yah.. it's harder so I expect to get better loot" it's pretty painfully clear, they were just thinking about how to get more/better loot..and figured to try to hide their true intentions behind "Oh I just want challenge"

No one believes them.. no one, why do you think developers dangle the shinie in the first place? yah, they screw up sometimes, like they really screwed up WvW, I mean the rewards are needed to keep the game mode alive, but, now it's infected by PvE scrubs taking up our limited slots while trying to farm reward tracks, and not contributing a damn thing to the map.

[PopeUrban.2578]

@Ohoni.6057 said:That rings hollow to me. The way I feel about it is, if people want recognition that they completed some task, that is fine to me. Let it be an achievement, maybe a title, a "trophy," something that says that they did that thing and serves no other purpose. But if you have an item that has inherent value, a skin, for example, something that a player could reasonably look at and go "I want that, how can I get that?," then it should not be gated behind content that is not suitable for all players. And despite your protestations that "anyone can do it," that's not good enough, it has to be content that everyone would want to do for the content itself. Content that is hard enough that it satisfies players who want "hard content* will NEVER be casual enough that it will satisfy players who want casual content, and to pretend otherwise is disingenuous at best. Players should not be drawn into content that they will not enjoy completing, in search of loot that they want to acquire.

What happens when a player sees a title and says "I want that" and finds out they need to do specific content to get it? How is that any different from a skin? That's an exclusive reward, exclusively obtainable, for doing exclusive content that may be beyond a player's challenge level.

I mean I decorate my guild hall regularly, and I'm seeing these PvP tournament trophies that are literally unobtainable. In your opinion, should there be some method for me to obtain a world championship trophy for my guild hall that commemorates an event that has ended, for which only a handful of players could ever have recieved this award?

I get your stance, and I disagree with you. The difference is you're going out of your way to cast doubt on the basic argument that is being presented to you. You're assigning some kind of ulterior motive to it. You're creating a straw man to rally against. You're saying "I hear what you're saying, but that's not REALLY what you mean" ad infinitum without stopping to consider that yes, perhaps this really is what people mean when they say it.

Is it so hard to do what the people responding to you are doing, take their arguments at face value, and respond to them accordingly?

Until you can respond to the desires of players that disagree with you without first assigning to them a set of opinions that your yourself have manufactured I'm not sure what the point is in this discussion. You've set out specifically to villify people that disagree with you first and foremost. Your first response is to call them liars and tell them what they think rather than actually listening to what they think.

That's my overall issue with what you're both saying. Not that you have a different view of loot distribution or acquisition that I happen to disagree with, but that you begin and end your arguments from a false position of implied superior morality because you're "telling the truth" and your opponents are "lying about their motivations" or that what they say "rings hollow"

Can you engage in debate on this particular topic without baselessly calling people liars, or is calling people liars the entire point of continued debate here?

[Ayumi Spender.1082]

@STIHL.2489 said:Or having the best tan at a goth festival.Hey!

@PopeUrban.2578 said:The crux of this argument Stihl now, and Ohoni (who I've had this debate with before) hang upon is, specifically "people only ask for harder content because they want to lord rare loot over plebs"

And feel free to tell yourselves that all you like. I don't doubt for a moment that this is specifically the motivation of some players. What you seem to fail to understand is that this is not the motivation of literally every single player that wants to be rewarded accordingly for completing content.

The reality is it isn't ABOUT lording the loot over anybody. It's about finishing a world boss where one acquires a guaranteed rare, and then finishing, let's say, one of the raids, or a challenge mode 100 fractal... and recieving the same loot feeling ultimately unrewarding.

Your desire to make literally everything about you misses the point here. It isn't about you. You can put words in people's mouths all you like, but the consensus is not "I don't want other people to have things" it's, quite simply "I want to feel rewarded for content I complete." People want to have special shiny bits for completing tougher content. Yes. That is not in dispute. What neither of you seems to understand is that it has nothing to do with exclusivity. These rewards are not exclusive. The content itself is sitting there, waiting to be completed, by every player. Just like every collection achievement, every map completion award, and every piece of loot dropping from every mob in the game.

Specifically, what you're asking for is "I want to have access to everything by doing only the narrow part of content I personally enjoy." where as those who want to be rewarded well for completing specific content are saying "I want to be rewarded this specific thing for completing this specific bit of content."

As to Stihl's point about GW2 being the "retirement home" of MMOs... that's not a position arenanet seems to agree with. They've gone out of their way to add additional, challenging content, with exclusive rewards for completing that content, since the beginning of the game. Its a core design concept of risk versus reward. They've expanded it from its roots in the release dungeons, to the scaling difficulty of the fractal system, to the tightly designed raid encounters, challenge modes, story mode achievement challenges, and various collections tied to specific content. Over two expansions and countless live patches the game has kept pace with its core open world content, which is designed to be accessible, while simultaneously expanding on its more challenging content. They've done so without withholding mechanical power from players that would gate them from attempting to complete that content specifically to make that content as approachable as possible for new players that may want to engage with it.

The idea that players are not entitled to rewards that are reflective of content completed begs the question: why do we have rewards for completing content? If the point of loot is not as reward for completing pve content, then why does it exist? Why don't we just remove inventories from the game. Why have loot drop at all from anything if players aren't entitled to rewards relative to successfully completing encounters?

Why require players to play PoF to gain sunspear or elonian skins if players aren't entitled to rewards reflective of content completed? Why doesn't purchasing the expansion simply unlock the skins and new stat sets?

GW2 does not seem to be the game you both think it is, and I'm not sure it ever really has been. It seems to be a game interested in serving a large and diverse player base with a diverse level of game types and challenge levels with a diverse number of reward types relative to that content. The problem you both seem to have with it that you believe you're entitled to everything while only doing the things you want to do for it. Please correct me if I misunderstand you here because I don't want to put words in your mouths.

And there's merit in a system like that, sure. Many games exist where this is possible.

GW2 isn't one of them, never has been, and seems to be incrementally moving further away from, rather than closer to that approach to loot. In fact, over time it seems it has worked very hard to offer a diverse array of content with an ever more diverse amount of challenge levels, and assigns specific rewards for specific content. I understand your point and I'm not going to try and put words in your mouths here. I disagree with you, and specifically I find it puzzling that you see loot in GW2 as something that has been historically non-exclusive and worry about changing the game in to something different. From my vantage, I see the specific point of content based rewards as one of the core mechanisms by which the game has always worked.

You're free to dislike the way the game works, you're free to disagree with the implementation of loot, but I don't get why you're going out of your way to tell me the game does something it obviously does not. Nobody across the fence for you in this debate is asking for any radical shift in gameplay mechanics. They're literally asking for more of what the game already does. They're asking for the same exact GW2 they've been playing for quite a while.

Even from what you're saying, even if it's just "Make things more challenging and forget making loot better"... you do know you're in the minority in this case right?When you check out the game from the forums and within the game itself, people tend to talk about the place to get the most "gold" in the shortest time.People mention Silverwastes, Basin, Dragon's Stand, the Living World areas, certain bosses and training them using the boss timer, etc.

People tend to yes not want things super easy, but if there's nothing coming out of it, they usually won't do it.If you go back some pages, you would see people saying that they hate the treasure maps in PoF. They use one, which usually sends them to the other side of the map, and then when they open the chest it never has anything good to them that some say they don't use them no more and even throw away those maps when they get them as it takes up space.

Same for even bounties in PoF. Some of them could be annoying and you do need some people to successfully beat them, but while some find it to be good for both exp and sometimes loot, many don't do it as they don't see it worth the time and effort.

The general idea IS that if there's no more/better reward in doing something harder, people won't do it.Get 1 achievement point for beating a boss with no armour? There IS people who would do it, but the majority will not touch it.

Do you really think people would do raids if it gave the same loot as the Great Jungle Wurm in Caledon Forest? Honest question... do you think so?

[PopeUrban.2578]

Are you responding to my post here Ayumi? I apologise if my wording wasn't clear but I happen to agree with what you've posted. I'm not sure if you're responding to me or Stihl here and am kind of confused if you're trying to make a point to me.

[Ohoni.6057]

@PopeUrban.2578 said:What happens when a player sees a title and says "I want that" and finds out they need to do specific content to get it? How is that any different from a skin? That's an exclusive reward, exclusively obtainable, for doing exclusive content that may be beyond a player's challenge level.

Ok then, we can agree to compromise that an exclusive title is plenty of exclusivity and move on.

I mean I decorate my guild hall regularly, and I'm seeing these PvP tournament trophies that are literally unobtainable. In your opinion, should there be some method for me to obtain a world championship trophy for my guild hall that commemorates an event that has ended, for which only a handful of players could ever have recieved this award?

I don't think there's any particular reason why a Guild Hall would need or even want a Trophy for an event that they did not complete. What would be the point? Now if the "trophy" in this case were a more general decoration, a table or a book case or a topiary or something that someone could reasonably say "that looks prettier than the other options available and I want it for decorative purposes, then sure, but if it's just this thing then what would be the point other than to commemorate an accomplishment?

I get your stance, and I disagree with you. The difference is you're going out of your way to cast doubt on the basic argument that is being presented to you. You're assigning some kind of ulterior motive to it. You're creating a straw man to rally against. You're saying "I hear what you're saying, but that's not REALLY what you mean" ad infinitum without stopping to consider that yes, perhaps this really is what people mean when they say it.

Are you sure that you aren't projecting?

Is it so hard to do what the people responding to you are doing, take their arguments at face value, and respond to them accordingly?

An excellent point for self reflection.

That's my overall issue with what you're both saying. Not that you have a different view of loot distribution or acquisition that I happen to disagree with, but that you begin and end your arguments from a false position of implied superior morality because you're "telling the truth" and your opponents are "lying about their motivations" or that what they say "rings hollow"

I don't think there's anything "implied" about it.

Can you engage in debate on this particular topic without baselessly calling people liars, or is calling people liars the entire point of continued debate here?

It would be an interesting experiment, wouldn't it. Let's see if you're willing to attempt it.

@Ayumi Spender.1082 said:If you go back some pages, you would see people saying that they hate the treasure maps in PoF. They use one, which usually sends them to the other side of the map, and then when they open the chest it never has anything good to them that some say they don't use them no more and even throw away those maps when they get them as it takes up space.

Same for even bounties in PoF. Some of them could be annoying and you do need some people to successfully beat them, but while some find it to be good for both exp and sometimes loot, many don't do it as they don't see it worth the time and effort.

The central issue in both of those is that they're tasks that send you chasing all over the map, with minimal player engagement, for a minimal reward, rather than rewarding you for what is around you. The solution isn't necessarily in the form of increasing loot, the best solution in both cases is to make them more relevant to the time and place you're at, so that buried treasures are always within the region you're in, bounties are always within walking distance, and can always be completed solo or with whoever happens to be around, rather than being a waste of time if you don't gather a large and well coordinated mass. Make them more convenient to the player's own interests and more people will do them, even if the rewards are unchanged.

Do you really think people would do raids if it gave the same loot as the Great Jungle Wurm in Caledon Forest? Honest question... do you think so?

Depends on if they enjoy raid content or not. People who enjoy raiding would. People who enjoy raid loot wouldn't.