Hard Mode, Heroic Mode, Ect...

[TheRandomGuy.7246]

@Ohoni.6057 said:The point is, you want to reward player engagement with the product, but you want to be flexible as to the method of engagement, because different players are engaged in different ways, and you want to have all of these players feel that they can meaningfully progress toward their goals.

Where do you draw the line tho. All goals must be achievable by everyone. Anything less promotes elitism and is not an option.

[FrizzFreston.5290]

In a game as big as GW2, there's a piece that fits everyone. There is no "your type of player deserves no content because wanting more loot from harder content is selfish" attitude in game developers.

There's only "I will make this hard content and give them this special reward for it for completing it, because if you do, you rock! And I will make this more mainstream content and give people a generic amount of rewards that fits with this piece of content with probably an exciting chance for something more amazing."

Standing next to the table throwing a tantrum that you don't get every reward is sometimes effective. But really that's only when developers get annoyed enough (read: get significantly less monetary gains) that they are going to give in.

It's like with my kids, sometimes I give in and sometimes it's just good to teach them that not everything is obtainable the easy way.

[Dyfinz.2348]

I remember they had special PVP effects on a monthly or weekly (so rotating time frame) on players in GW1. One I rememeber somewhat was like "There Can Only Be One" and you did like 20% more damage to players of the same profession during matches.

So what am I getting at? The developers were able to implement an active effect on players across the board.If instanced, or separate server hardmode is impossible, perhaps an optional HardMode effect could be put on individuals players that chose it so.

A few ideas:

• HardMode can only be selected by level 80 characters.
• HardMode for any map/zone must be 100% complete before a player can activate HardMode on that map.

A few ideas about some of the mechanics (they do not have to combined):

• Players under the effect of HardMode:
  1. Take double damage from all sources
  2. Move 10% slower, speed boosts have no effect
  3. healing is reduced by 33%, this stacks with poison
  4. Boons are reduced by 50% effectiveness or duration.
• If the list above is not likely or desirable:
  1. New harder faster, way deadlier foes in current servers are placed in the current maps. (Perhaps better AI?)
  2. HardMode Hearts that deal with harder tasks and foes can be completed by those under HardMode effects. Basically just redo with harder foes if it too much work.
  3. These foes are non-aggro to players without HardMode effect and therefor are invuln to non HardMode players, i.e. they will be perceived as friendly and unable to attack them. This is so HardMode players receive no help, and low levels don't get killed.

Now the content should be able to be completed by all/most players but...

• It can not be forgiving for poor planning and bad gear/food/utilities
• Lack of understanding what kind of foes and situational awarness should be punished in Hard Mode.

Why would anyone want this?

• They enjoy maps, and often frequent some of the same ones everyday.
• Mentoring could still be accomplished because they are on the same map.
• Slightly better rewards.
• A new series of achievements and things to do without going full out expansion.

What kind of rewards?

• 1-3 Gold for completing a map on HM
• After completing all maps on HM (HM World completion), the player recieves a special weapons chest (maybe get another design a weapon contest for these), and an achievement,~~ Legendary Hero of Somthinruther~~

This idea may repopulate older/core maps, make new players percieve even higher population in the game, and ultimately drive them to purchase content from developers especially if they are FTP.Old dogs can show the new pups some tricks once again.

I am full of many more bad ideas but for now......What do you think about that? (How about we focus on growing the idea of how it can be done, versus as to rather whether or not it should?)

[Deihnyx.6318]

@Dyfinz.2348 said:I remember they had special PVP effects on a monthly or weekly (so rotating time frame) on players in GW1. One I rememeber somewhat was like "There Can Only Be One" and you did like 20% more damage to players of the same profession during matches.

So what am I getting at? The developers were able to implement an active effect on players across the board.If instanced, or separate server hardmode is impossible, perhaps an optional HardMode effect could be put on individuals players that chose it so.

A few ideas:

• HardMode can only be selected by level 80 characters.
• HardMode for any map/zone must be 100% complete before a player can activate HardMode on that map.

A few ideas about some of the mechanics (they do not have to combined):

• Players under the effect of HardMode:
  1. Take double damage from all sources
  2. Move 10% slower, speed boosts have no effect
  3. healing is reduced by 33%, this stacks with poison
  4. Boons are reduced by 50% effectiveness or duration.
• If the list above is not likely or desirable:
  1. New harder faster, way deadlier foes in current servers are placed in the current maps. (Perhaps better AI?)
  2. HardMode Hearts that deal with harder tasks and foes can be completed by those under HardMode effects. Basically just redo with harder foes if it too much work.
  3. These foes are non-aggro to players without HardMode effect and therefor are invuln to non HardMode players, i.e. they will be perceived as friendly and unable to attack them. This is so HardMode players receive no help, and low levels don't get killed.

Now the content should be able to be completed by all/most players but...

• It can not be forgiving for poor planning and bad gear/food/utilities
• Lack of understanding what kind of foes and situational awarness should be punished in Hard Mode.

Why would anyone want this?

• They enjoy maps, and often frequent some of the same ones everyday.
• Mentoring could still be accomplished because they are on the same map.
• Slightly better rewards.
• A new series of achievements and things to do without going full out expansion.

What kind of rewards?

• 1-3 Gold for completing a map on HM
• After completing all maps on HM (HM World completion), the player recieves a special weapons chest (maybe get another design a weapon contest for these), and an achievement,~~ Legendary Hero of Somthinruther~~

This idea may repopulate older/core maps, make new players percieve even higher population in the game, and ultimately drive them to purchase content from developers especially if they are FTP.Old dogs can show the new pups some tricks once again.

I am full of many more bad ideas but for now......What do you think about that? (How about we focus on growing the idea of how it can be done, versus as to rather whether or not it should?)

I'm sure this idea could be extended to the point of making some situations fun, but might be harder to implement if we want to keep them in the same instance. Also, it might seem weird for a non HM player to see people fighting everywhere.But It's certainly something worth considering and maybe improving, 100% totally support this.

They could do similar things in other modes, too. Like I never understand why having skirmishes in WvW but never applying any special effects during a specific skirmish (There can only be one would be an obvious choice)

[Menadena.7482]

Why do you need a specialized mode? Wear no armor and white weapons. No sigils/runes. Do not run. Stuff like that.

[Dyfinz.2348]

@Menadena.7482 said:Why do you need a specialized mode? Wear no armor and white weapons. No sigils/runes. Do not run. Stuff like that.

This is not the first time someone suggested this. It actually may be the fourth...but for your sake...hahaha good one. B)

[PopeUrban.2578]

@Ohoni.6057 said:It's impossible to reconcile that system in a way that will please everyone

This is the one thing we agree on. This thread should be evidence that your system also fails to please everyone. The fact of the matter is that until all players value all types of content and reward equally, you can not please everyone. That will never happen. People are different, and want different things for different reasons.

Specifically, you're removing context from all rewards in this manner. While that would certainly please you, such a drastic change to the fundamental reward mechanisms of the game is bound to upset just as many or possibly more people as it pleases.

In a world where you simply can not please everyone, I'd prefer the status quo, because it has proven tolerable enough to all involved that it seems an adequate compromise. Your absolutist revision that aims to decouple reward from content is certainly intriguing as a general idea, were some game built around it from the ground up, but ill suited for a game that already has an entrenched user base largely content with the existing mechanism. I would find your approach to loot dreadfully boring to play as I rather enjoy the act of downing specific dungeons or bosses for their unique drops, and I dislike systems in which I can just buy everything on the trade post. I know its difficult for you to really understand, but when I save up tokens or gold or whatever and buy stuff from a vendor, its doesn't feel earned, and one of the specific reasons I play these types of games is to earn loot. I don't begrudge you this desire for everything. I simply don't find this system appealing, and I prefer the one we already have. That system is part of why I continue to play the game. I like being rewarded with skins relative to what I'm doing in the game, and thus I've been playing a game that does that for around five years.

[STIHL.2489]

@Menadena.7482 said:Why do you need a specialized mode? Wear no armor and white weapons. No sigils/runes. Do not run. Stuff like that.

They won't do that, because what they really want is more/special/better loot.

[Ayumi Spender.1082]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Menadena.7482 said:Why do you need a specialized mode? Wear no armor and white weapons. No sigils/runes. Do not run. Stuff like that.

They won't do that, because what they really want is more/special/better loot.

That's the thing that's been said so many times on here but of course certain people want to say "NO! NO! I JUST WANT THE CHALLENGE! I DON'T WANT BETTER LOOT!"Armourless Dead Souls, Nuzlock/Nuzleaf/whatever in Pokémon, Rushing straight to Ganon in Breath of the Wild the moment you get the glider, "No special attacks" Megaman runs, and so on and so forth.People that like/want challenges will always find a way to do it. You don't need the designers to make it for you when you can make it yourself.Back to the whole Pokémon thing, I still remember when the games went to 3DS and people whined about why EXP Share is a key item that you can turn on and off and be used on every Pokémon without equipping as it made the game too easy......yeah but as stated... you can toggle on and off so.... those that don't want it "too easy" can bloody turn it off...

People like challenges in this game so much that many times in the Labyrinth people that even usually say "The Viscount and Lich isn't hard to beat and can be down quite easily if you have a group that knows what they're doing", but usually ends the talk with "...but in the end they're still not worth the trouble. Especially if you got the daily chest from them already. Labyrinthine is quicker and gives the same as them anyway."

[Ohoni.6057]

@TheRandomGuy.7246 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:The point is, you want to reward player

engagement

with the product, but you want to be flexible as to the

method

of engagement, because different players are engaged in different ways, and you want to have all of these players feel that they can meaningfully progress toward their goals.

Where do you draw the line tho. All goals must be achievable by everyone. Anything less promotes elitism and is not an option.

Again, that's a strawman. I think that every game needs to establish a baseline for itself, "this is the level of difficulty for this game." In some games, this bar is super high, and in some it's super low, but whatever that baseline is, it should be respected. If a game is ALL hard content, then sure, that's fine. Players who like hard content play it, and players who don't play something else. But in a game like GW2, where I believe most of the game's players enjoy a less-than-hardcore experience, I believe it's unreasonable to place some portions of the game out of their reach, because that is removing portions of this game's experience from those players. I think offering harder challenges is fine, so long as they are purely optional, as in "you don't have to do them and all you've miss out on is the player experience of having done them, not the sort of faux-"optional" that some people say when they mean "you don't have to do it, you just won't get the cool stuff that you can still only get by doing it."

So no, it doesn't mean lowing the bar to the level of "push button, get loot," or any other strawman argument you care to make, but it does mean that it should be available through the same sort of challenge level that most of the content of this game is at, and that most of this particular game's players engage with on a standard basis. That is the baseline, that should be the standard by which all content is balanced.

@PopeUrban.2578 said:Specifically, you're removing context from all rewards in this manner. While that would certainly please you, such a drastic change to the fundamental reward mechanisms of the game is bound to upset just as many or possibly more people as it pleases.

Nah.

I would find your approach to loot dreadfully boring to play as I rather enjoy the act of downing specific dungeons or bosses for their unique drops, and I dislike systems in which I can just buy everything on the trade post.

But again, you could target specific scenarios for specific loot, I'm not taking away that option, I'm just adding other options. And as someone who keeps talking about "keeping things the way they are," let me remind you that while there are plenty of items in the game that are thematically tied to specific content, many of them can be acquired through alternate means, through random drops, through the TP, through PvP tracks, through the Mystic Forge, etc. There are very few items in the game that can only be sourced from a single boss like a WoW raid. And before you then go "see, that's a compromise, you can go for all those items," I'll remind you that my point is that items are NEVER fungible, that having a thousand items available as "get them anywhere" does not make up for even a single item being "only available here," if that single item is the one a given player wants. That is not "absolutist," that's just reality. It's like saying to a man in a liferaft "well, only I get to drink from this canteen of water, but you have this entire ocean of water to drink from! Stop being so absolutist!"

Now you might not like buying things with currency, and that's fine. Again, they can leave in more specific ways to earn them. If your argument is that you lack the self control to hunt down an item via the specific mechanism if alternatives are available, well that's entirely on you. You can't blame the game if you take the path that you claim to hate. There are plenty of things in the game where an easier path exists, but I take the more involved one because I want to have that feeling of earning something the "intended" way. The existence of an easier path does not force me to take it, but it does open up options if I'm unable or unwilling to pursue that path. In fact, I tend to feel even better about my accomplishments in those situations, because I know that not only did I complete the task, but that I also resisted the temptation to take shortcuts.

I like being rewarded with skins relative to what I'm doing in the game, and thus I've been playing a game that does that for around five years.

Ok, and it would be a shame to see you go if you couldn't adapt to a changed system, but if that's the cost, ANet can afford to pay it. They would gain many more loyal customers than they would lose. I'm sure they lost people due to mounts too, it's part of the risk of game development that no change will be universally agreed upon.

[STIHL.2489]

@FrizzFreston.5290 said:In a game as big as GW2, there's a piece that fits everyone. There is no "your type of player deserves no content because wanting more loot from harder content is selfish" attitude in game developers.

There's only "I will make this hard content and give them this special reward for it for completing it, because if you do, you rock! And I will make this more mainstream content and give people a generic amount of rewards that fits with this piece of content with probably an exciting chance for something more amazing."

Standing next to the table throwing a tantrum that you don't get every reward is sometimes effective. But really that's only when developers get annoyed enough (read: get significantly less monetary gains) that they are going to give in.

It's like with my kids, sometimes I give in and sometimes it's just good to teach them that not everything is obtainable the easy way.

First of all, you don't "rock" because you can do some content in a game, and that is where everything goes wrong.

If you have 100 children, each child pays you 10 dollars to make a game, and then you make a game that only rewards 10% of them, do you think the other 90% are going to happy, and give you more money to keep your game going?

That is what happening here. Sure, everyone can and does do the easy content, so 100% of the player base gets to enjoy that. To fuss that enjoying the game you have is not enough, and that you need special content just for you, yet you have not done (read Pay) anything special for it.. do you now see where the problem lies?

[Deihnyx.6318]

@Ayumi Spender.1082 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Menadena.7482 said:Why do you need a specialized mode? Wear no armor and white weapons. No sigils/runes. Do not run. Stuff like that.

They won't do that, because what they really want is more/special/better loot.

That's the thing that's been said so many times on here but of course certain people want to say "NO! NO! I JUST WANT THE CHALLENGE! I DON'T WANT BETTER LOOT!"Armourless Dead Souls, Nuzlock/Nuzleaf/whatever in Pokémon, Rushing straight to Ganon in Breath of the Wild the moment you get the glider, "No special attacks" Megaman runs, and so on and so forth.People that like/want challenges will always find a way to do it. You don't need the designers to make it for you when you can make it yourself.Back to the whole Pokémon thing, I still remember when the games went to 3DS and people whined about why EXP Share is a key item that you can turn on and off and be used on every Pokémon without equipping as it made the game too easy......yeah but as stated... you can toggle on and off so.... those that don't want it "too easy" can bloody turn it off...

People like challenges in this game so much that many times in the Labyrinth people that even usually say "The Viscount and Lich isn't hard to beat and can be down quite easily if you have a group that knows what they're doing", but usually ends the talk with "...but in the end they're still not worth the trouble. Especially if you got the daily chest from them already. Labyrinthine is quicker and gives the same as them anyway."

Yes, you can find "custom" ways to have challenging content. Of course players can find some ways to add some challenge, that doesn't mean we necessarily can't get a more refined, official ways to get them. Otherwise SAB Tribulation wouldn't be a thing that many people enjoy doing.And again, there is NOTHING wrong liking challenge AND the corresponding loot. It's simply an alternative way to grind that some people enjoy more. If you do like grinding for loot, okay no problem. If you prefer exercising your skill, you should be able to do it, too. Grind rewards you for the time spent, Challenge rewards you for your skill.

I have a strong feeling that it's less a problem with the notion of challenge itself than people (maybe not you) automatically associating that with bragging. Well, just like in real life, when you succeed doing something hard, you're happy about it and you talk about it. Just like when you get a super skin you tend to ping it to map or in your guild chat, everyone like some recognition.

@STIHL.2489 said:

@FrizzFreston.5290 said:In a game as big as GW2, there's a piece that fits everyone. There is no "your type of player deserves no content because wanting more loot from harder content is selfish" attitude in game developers.

There's only "I will make this hard content and give them this special reward for it for completing it, because if you do, you rock! And I will make this more mainstream content and give people a generic amount of rewards that fits with this piece of content with probably an exciting chance for something more amazing."

Standing next to the table throwing a tantrum that you don't get every reward is sometimes effective. But really that's only when developers get annoyed enough (read: get significantly less monetary gains) that they are going to give in.

It's like with my kids, sometimes I give in and sometimes it's just good to teach them that not everything is obtainable the easy way.

First of all, you don't "rock" because you can do some content in a game, and that is where everything goes wrong.

If you have 100 children, each child pays you 10 dollars to make a game, and then you make a game that only rewards 10% of them, do you think the other 90% are going to happy, and give you more money to keep your game going?

That is what happening here. Sure, everyone can and does do the easy content, so 100% of the player base gets to enjoy that. To fuss that enjoying the game you have is not enough, and that you need special content just for you, yet you have not done (read Pay) anything special for it.. do you now see where the problem lies?

90% of the kids get about 90% of the rewards, and 10% of the rewards are accessed only by the kids who succeed at some specific tasks.In this situation, if the kids complain that they don't get the remaining 10%, I'd tell them these "special 10% kids" contributed too and should get a piece of the cake they like.That's if you understand people have different interests.

And you can totally be proud of something you achieve in a game. It's a game, it's supposed to give you good feelings, otherwise what's even the point of playing.

[maddoctor.2738]

@STIHL.2489 said:What huge blob..? 90% of the time I am solo or duo in lab, and even when there is a tag, it's often just to kill the bosses, as doing anything else with the same number of people it takes to drop the lich is painful overkill, and not fun, and their frequency is way to high for them to be classified as a "rare spawn" like a world boss would be.

I guess you never joined one of 100 lab squads from the LFG then. That not a single one ever kills the bosses and only farms the mobs, while asking their players to remove trinkets, use magi gear, and only spam auto attacks so everyone gets their fat loot.

You haven't done enough Lab (or at all), never joined a squad to actually do anything there so what you want is irrelevant at this point. The bosses need to stay as they are for the squads to have something to do. You first do the content and then balance the rewards of it, not the other way around. We already have the content, time to balance the rewards of it so it's worth doing.

@STIHL.2489 said:Everything else is a Sleepwalking AFK Event

In that case the sensible thing to do is to buff the mobs so it's no longer sleepwalk. Not turn everything else that is not sleepwalk into sleepwalk.What's next? Make Tequatl solo friendly? I get it all you want is to get quick and easy rewards without even playing the game but this is getting ridiculous.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Dyfinz.2348 said:I am full of many more bad ideas but for now......What do you think about that? (How about we focus on growing the idea of how it can be done, versus as to rather whether or not it should?)

Or, instead if you want a challenge go play Raids and CM Fractals instead of touching the open world.Usually I hate the "if you want challenge, remove your gear" argument, because when I want challenge I expect a foe with skills and abilities and not a foe that deals too much damage and has too many hit points. Removing gear would increase the damage you take, and decrease the damage you deal, this isn't challenging, it's tedious and boring. However, you are suggesting to take increased damage while in this "mode" so in your case "remove your gear" works perfectly fine.There is no need to split the community by making two difficulty versions of the same maps.

There is no need to add such a debuff to make things harder and once you remember how you are rewarded in the open world you will figure out why it's such a bad idea.To remind you: a player who spams 1 during a big event will get access to the same rewards as a player who is doing his best at any event.A player who is bringing CC and doing good damage, healing, or contributes to important mechanics (like the Tequatl turrets for example) will get the same rewards as a random nobody that spams 1 on their 1500 range Longbow from a relative safe distance.

Now if they added such a debuff but allow players to players to play on the same map, the "Hard mode" player would spam 1 from a safe distance, negating the effects of the debuff, while the normal players finish the event. There you go, you just added extra rewards for lazy people.

[Ohoni.6057]

@maddoctor.2738 said:Usually I hate the "if you want challenge, remove your gear" argument, because when I want challenge I expect a foe with skills and abilities and not a foe that deals too much damage and has too many hit points. Removing gear would increase the damage you take, and decrease the damage you deal, this isn't challenging, it's tedious and boring.

That's partly true, and I don't see much point in deliberately reducing your DPS, but making yourself deliberately glassier can raise the challenge factor in an encounter by making it so that you must actively respond to every attack, rather than being able to face-tank some of it. Obviously the enemy in question would need a baseline amount of react-worthy attacks or other gimmicks, but if they do, lowered defense increases the risk. Personally though, I prefer to just set personal targets for myself, like I want to try to avoid every attack the enemy makes, and then if I fail, rather than having the game punish me by flunking me out, I just know for myself that I missed that dodge or misspent an ability I needed later, and that's plenty.

Now if they added such a debuff but allow players to players to play on the same map, the "Hard mode" player would spam 1 from a safe distance, negating the effects of the debuff, while the normal players finish the event. There you go, you just added extra rewards for lazy people.

And that's my concern with any sort of hard mode, that after a while, the sort of players that like that sort of thing will just "have it on farm," and will have no more difficulty completing the events in roughly the same time and risk as a group would spend on a normal map, yet receive bonus loot for doing so. That's impossibly hard to balance out to be fair.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Ohoni.6057 said:That's partly true, and I don't see much point in deliberately reducing your DPS, but making yourself deliberately glassier can raise the challenge factor in an encounter by making it so that you must actively respond to every attack, rather than being able to face-tank some of it.

I still remember high tier Fractals before their fix. Stacking on the wood was the only way to beat the mid boss room in Underground, due to the seer amount of damage of the mobs. Cliffside was a royal pain and required even more corner stacking and so on. We've already seen in this game what high damage/ high hit points mobs can do. But honestly that wasn't a good thing, removing your gear will lead us back there, so as someone who experienced it already, I must say, I don't want to see it again.

And that's my concern with any sort of hard mode, that after a while, the sort of players that like that sort of thing will just "have it on farm," and will have no more difficulty completing the events in roughly the same time and risk as a group would spend on a normal map, yet receive bonus loot for doing so. That's impossibly hard to balance out to be fair.

That's why they should leave the current open world as it is. Want a challenge? There is challenging content in the game go do that.

On a side note, if they made a hard mode I'd go check the harder places in the game, like the Mursaat Fortress in Ember Bay, the Shrine of Balthazar in Siren's Landing, the Brand area in Domain of Vabbi and so on. Thinking this way it makes me realize all the poster wants is a harder Queensdale lol

[Ohoni.6057]

@maddoctor.2738 said:I still remember high tier Fractals before their fix. Stacking on the wood was the only way to beat the mid boss room in Underground, due to the seer amount of damage of the mobs. Cliffside was a royal pain and required even more corner stacking and so on. We've already seen in this game what high damage/ high hit points mobs can do. But honestly that wasn't a good thing, removing your gear will lead us back there, so as someone who experienced it already, I must say, I don't want to see it again.

And a lot of that is a content design issue. If the only way to survive an encounter is to actively negate every incoming attack, then you need to make sure the players have the tools to actually do so. You can't send more attacks at them than they could possibly manage. That's why that sort of playstyle is better suited to boss fights involving a single enemy, so that the attacks can be doled out in a predictable manner so that it's always at least possibly to counter each one. If there isn't that level of predictability, then the game has to provide safetynets, otherwise the outcome is determined by RNG rather than skill.

And really, I don't find the Shrine of Balthazar that hard, but then mainly all I do is kick people into the soup and then run for it.

[STIHL.2489]

Well.. Lets see.. I am on a topic.

Where some people fuss that it is wrong for everyone to get a trophy, while playing a game who's loot system is specifically designed around the idea that everyone gets a trophy.

I wish I could think of something positive about those kinds of people, but, when you really look at it, if you didn't like the idea of everyone getting a trophy, why did you come here.. where.. oh right.. everyone gets a trophy.

I mean, That is like going to a free candy sampling event fussing that it's wrong the candy is free. That is like going to a "Everyone gets a balloon" festival, and fussing that its wrong everyone got a balloon.

I think at this point.. I'm out.

[FrizzFreston.5290]

@STIHL.2489 said:Well.. Lets see.. I am on a topic.

Where some people fuss that it is wrong for everyone to get a trophy, while playing a game who's loot system is specifically designed around the idea that everyone gets a trophy.

I wish I could think of something positive about those kinds of people, but, when you really look at it, if you didn't like the idea of everyone getting a trophy, why did you come here.. where.. oh right.. everyone gets a trophy.

I mean, That is like going to a free candy sampling event fussing that it's wrong the candy is free. That is like going to a "Everyone gets a balloon" festival, and fussing that its wrong everyone got a balloon.

I think at this point.. I'm out.

Its more that some people at an "everyone gets a balloon festival" are arguing that they also deserve the golden balloon that only are given to the people who manage to blow that really hard to blow up balloon.

Everyone IS getting a trophy, and that is great.. I don't think anyone is arguing against that. But there are some people saying that they deserve whichever trophy they want even though they get a different trophy regardless.

[TheRandomGuy.7246]

@Ohoni.6057 said:So no, it doesn't mean lowing the bar to the level of "push button, get loot," or any other strawman argument you care to make, but it does mean that it should be available through the same sort of challenge level that most of the content of this game is at, and that most of this particular game's players engage with on a standard basis. That is the baseline, that should be the standard by which all content is balanced.

But the most of the content in gw2 is "push button, get loot". Majority of the content are easy events and bosses. A lot of people never saw their trait panel or used a build. So yes. You will have to unlock everything for everyone on their first login because this is how low the bar is.

[Hyper Cutter.9376]

@Deihnyx.6318 said:What wasn't so okay was to lock the legendary armor behind one game type (raid), but this has been fixed, and rightfully so.It won't be "fixed" until there's a non-raid way to get it in PVE, since Anet has explicitly said they won't make raiding more accessible.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

Removing gear, while it can work, is not what a lot of players who want PvE challenge are looking for. For the subset of players that derive enjoyment from the gear-up, build construction and rotation tuning processes, removing gear removes part of the fun. Since one of the biggest challenges in PvP, out-thinking the opponent, is largely absent in PvE (at least past the first time or two through the content), removing another part of the fun is distasteful.

[STIHL.2489]

@TheRandomGuy.7246 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:So no, it doesn't mean lowing the bar to the level of "push button, get loot," or any other strawman argument you care to make, but it does mean that it should be available through the same sort of challenge level that

most

of the content of this game is at, and that

most

of this particular game's players engage with on a standard basis. That is the baseline, that should be the standard by which all content is balanced.

But the most of the content in gw2 is "push button, get loot". Majority of the content are easy events and bosses. A lot of people never saw their trait panel or used a build. So yes. You will have to unlock everything for everyone on their first login because this is how low the bar is.

Look.. really, if you think the Bar is that low here, maybe you are just too awesome for this game, perhaps you might want to play a game that sets the bar a little higher with thrilling rides, and not full incompetent fartles fussing and fuming about who gets to ride the unicorn on the merry-go-round, and enjoying our Free Candy for no effort game.

I know Anet sent me gold plated letter begging me to come back* when I stopping playing.. maybe they will send you one too!

*Note: I haven't gotten it yet.. but I know they sent it.. because I am special!

[Ohoni.6057]

@TheRandomGuy.7246 said:But the most of the content in gw2 is "push button, get loot". Majority of the content are easy events and bosses. A lot of people never saw their trait panel or used a build. So yes. You will have to unlock everything for everyone on their first login because this is how low the bar is.

If you insist on that position then there is no reasonable basis for discussion.

If you truly believe that "most of the content in gw2 is "push button, get loot"," and that sort of content is not what you want in a game, then why are you even here trying to mess it up for everyone that does enjoy this game? I would counter that there is a wide gulf between most GW2 content and "push button, get loot",

[STIHL.2489]

Now.. this might be a solution