Why Snowcrows and other websites prefer Nightmare runes over Elementalist Rune for condi classes?

[Crystal Paladin.3871]

For Mirage and Revenant, the websites like SC,LN,MB all suggest nightmare runes for the 10% condi duration... where the condi duration can be attributed by malice sigil and the elementalist rune gives extra power and extra condi damage ..  I checked this with the builds...

 

refer SC nightmare rune build for mirage

 

 

and refer Custom Elemetalist rune Build for Mirage

 

Whenever I ask this in guilds and other lobbies ppl always say they prefer to use nightmare runes over elementalist rune coz they trust the build SC,MB,LN suggest rather than what they see or hear from others... I admit I'm not an expert.. but the builds that i linked above clearly shows difference in terms of condi dmg and power and same condi duration... and elementalist rune clearly wins over the nightmare rune by numbers...

 

(Edit: for some reason, the gw2skills.net webapp didn't save the activated boons in the generated link... so u might see condi duration less than 95% coz the trait chaotic persistence is not procced.. u can manually trigger the trait in the webapp by clicking on the boon icons for both the build links at the top while comparing  the builds)

 

Am I missing something?

 

 

for condi renegade, I havent completely figured out the replacement build with same condi duration... but we can take different choice of food to get extra 30 expertise and i hope the extra power and extra condi dmg stats elementalist rune provides can be favourable for renegade but i'm not 100% certain ffor renegade.. but for mirage I'm certain the choice of runes and sigils can improve mirage dps

 

 

(the following line is not the topic of discussion.. the following line might confuse the topic of discussion.. u can drop a note at the end of your comment regarding stat in armor piece rather than food choices)

and I also noticed they sometimes adjust armor pieces for different stats rather than adjusting the food.. that gives the same stats numbers... is there something else that comes into play?

Edited June 18, 2021 by Crystal Paladin.3871

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

3 hours ago, Crystal Paladin.3871 said:

For Mirage and Revenant, the websites like SC,LN,MB all suggest nightmare runes for the 10% condi duration... where the condi duration can be attributed by malice sigil and the elementalist rune gives extra power and extra condi damage ..  I checked this with the builds...

 

refer SC nightmare rune build for mirage

 

 

and refer Custom Elemetalist rune Build for Mirage

 

Whenever I ask this in guilds and other lobbies ppl always say they prefer to use nightmare runes over elementalist rune coz they trust the build SC,MB,LN suggest rather than what they see or hear from others... I admit I'm not an expert.. but the builds that i linked above clearly shows difference in terms of condi dmg and power and same condi duration... and elementalist rune clearly wins over the nightmare rune by numbers...

 

(Edit: for some reason, the gw2skills.net webapp didn't save the activated boons in the generated link... so u might see condi duration less than 95% coz the trait chaotic persistence is not procced.. u can manually trigger the trait in the webapp by clicking on the boon icons for both the build links at the top while comparing  the builds)

 

Am I missing something?

 

 

for condi renegade, I havent completely figured out the replacement build with same condi duration... but we can take different choice of food to get extra 30 expertise and i hope the extra power and extra condi dmg stats elementalist rune provides can be favourable for renegade but i'm not 100% certain ffor renegade.. but for mirage I'm certain the choice of runes and sigils can improve mirage dps

 

 

(the following line is not the topic of discussion.. the following line might confuse the topic of discussion.. u can drop a note at the end of your comment regarding stat in armor piece rather than food choices)

and I also noticed they sometimes adjust armor pieces for different stats rather than adjusting the food.. that gives the same stats numbers... is there something else that comes into play?

If you look at your condi damage ticks, you'll see that the Nightmare rune version is slightly higher, thus will have a higher benchmark. Snowcrows and the like are guilds that specialize in speed running raids, so they take the highest damage possible and then practice until they nail the rotation perfectly. This is however not necessary for most groups. 

[Stavros.8249]

The nightmare runes give 20% condition duration not 10. It's on rune 4  and 6.

It's the highest condition duration at a rune set, that's why everyone  use it. 

[Dadnir.5038]

Because sigil of bursting coupled with nightmare runes give you more damage than sigil of malice coupled with elementalist runes in the end.

 

For example, If you look at your bleed tics for example, snowcrow's choices push each individual stack tic to 140 damage while the alternative choice only push it to 137 point of damage. 3 point of difference seem like nothing, but with full might this difference almost double to 6 point of difference. With each stack of condition this difference is increased...

 

In the end, the alternative build just deal less damages and thus is less optimal.

Edited June 18, 2021 by Dadnir.5038

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

Runes of  the tempest have the highest Condition duration with +25% CD and 36 expertise. *

But yeah, in order to improve condition damage Rune of tempest isn't the best choice.

 

About runes of Nightmare, or Runes of Elementalist; or even Renegades, Lich etc; tt still relies on the build itself + the encounters.

Runes of elementalist give a little higher burst with higher condition damage, plus power damage against low armor encounters; it's a good "hybrid" set for Fractals for example where you have shorts phases and  a vast diversity of encounters.

If the fight last longer, and so you want to optimize damage over time, on most of classes you would like to optimise condition duration; it's often better so for raids.

 

 

[Crystal Paladin.3871]

2 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

If you look at your condi damage ticks, you'll see that the Nightmare rune version is slightly higher, thus will have a higher benchmark. Snowcrows and the like are guilds that specialize in speed running raids, so they take the highest damage possible and then practice until they nail the rotation perfectly. This is however not necessary for most groups. 

U mean even if the stats in equipment panel is higher for elementalist than nightmare, the dps is high for nightmare rune? is that what ure trying to say? like is that a bug with nightmare rune? did u check the two links in the OP? is that a known bug then?

[Crystal Paladin.3871]

2 hours ago, Stavros.8249 said:

The nightmare runes give 20% condition duration not 10. It's on rune 4  and 6.

It's the highest condition duration at a rune set, that's why everyone  use it. 

oh pls..  elementalist rune gives 10% and malice sigil gives 10% and condi duration is compensated.. and elementalist rune gives more power and extra condi damage apart from that... did u verify the build links that I included in OP?

[Stavros.8249]

6 minutes ago, Crystal Paladin.3871 said:

oh pls..  elementalist rune gives 10% and malice sigil gives 10% and condi duration is compensated.. and elementalist rune gives more power and extra condi damage apart from that... did u verify the build links that I included in OP?

No I didn't check link. I thought he didn't saw the second bonus. 

[Crystal Paladin.3871]

1 hour ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Because sigil of bursting coupled with nightmare runes give you more damage than sigil of malice coupled with elementalist runes in the end.

 

For example, If you look at your bleed tics for example, snowcrow's choices push each individual stack tic to 140 damage while the alternative choice only push it to 137 point of damage. 3 point of difference seem like nothing, but with full might this difference almost double to 6 point of difference. With each stack of condition this difference is increased...

 

In the end, the alternative build just deal less damages and thus is less optimal.

So.. this is where I might've gone wrong....  so... even if all the stats are equal, a sigil of bursting would do more dmg on weapon skills even though the condi damage and condi duration is equal for both builds?

like example:

build1: overall condi dmg:10 duration:10 (weapon with sigil of bursting sigil) => (x+y) dps

build2: overall condi dmg:10 duration:10 (weapon with sigil of malice sigil) => x dps

 

is that the reality? I thought the weapon skills are showing wrong numbers due to some bug in gw2skills.net webapp

 

can u confirm this is the truth? ie the sigil is more effective even if the total stats in equipment window is the same?

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 minute ago, Crystal Paladin.3871 said:

U mean even if the stats in equipment panel is higher for elementalist than nightmare, the dps is high for nightmare rune? is that what ure trying to say? like is that a bug with nightmare rune? did u check the two links in the OP? is that a known bug then?

You got the same durations which makes this easier to lay out for you.

 

The Elementalist rune build has a 1917 condition damage stat.

The Nightmare rune build has a 1862 condition damage stat, but ALSO has +5% condition damage from the sigil of bursting. This is effectively a 1955 condition damage stat then with a sigil of bursting.

Do  you see now why the Nightmare runes are better?

[Crystal Paladin.3871]

2 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

You got the same durations which makes this easier to lay out for you.

 

The Elementalist rune build has a 1917 condition damage stat.

The Nightmare rune build has a 1862 condition damage stat, but ALSO has +5% condition damage from the sigil of bursting. This is effectively a 1955 condition damage stat then with a sigil of bursting.

Do  you see now why the Nightmare runes are better?

pls compare the condi damage stat in equipment tab in gw2skills.net link that are included in OP.. or... is the % condi dmg stat wont reflect on the equipment tab and only calculated  during combat? i could be wrong there

 

Edited June 18, 2021 by Crystal Paladin.3871

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Just now, Crystal Paladin.3871 said:

So.. this is where I might've gone wrong....  so... even if all the stats are equal, a sigil of bursting would do more dmg on weapon skills even though the condi damage and condi duration is equal for both builds?

like example:

build1: overall condi dmg:10 duration:10 (weapon with sigil of bursting sigil) => (x+y) dps

build2: overall condi dmg:10 duration:10 (weapon with sigil of malice sigil) => x dps

 

is that the reality? I thought the weapon skills are showing wrong numbers due to some bug in gw2skills.net webapp

 

can u confirm this is the truth? ie the sigil is more effective even if the total stats in equipment window is the same?

If you take the Busting sigil off the Bleeds show as 133 per stack per tick, with the sigil they show as 140.

 

Nightmare Runes give you the most condition damage plus condition duration together on a rune set. If you could forgo the energy sigil (not a good idea) then you could place a bursting sigil on the Elementalist version, but you would end up doing lower dps overall due to fewer ambush skill procs.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

There is a threshold for all conditions where expertise will bring  same or more damage than condition damage. But you need to take the condition on its full duration, not just the tick. And obviously not exceed 100%.

Nightmares brings +10% CD more than Elementalists, wich is +XXX expertise, which is more than the +50 condition damage.

 

Same story for Sigils of bursting and malice; there is a threshold one will grant more points, more damage, than the other. So unless you play celestial or without any condition damage, or you want more impairing condition etc, you better want the +5%  damage.

 

But once again. It will also depend of the armor of the boss, the duration of the fights/phases, the frequency of defiance bar/exposed debuff ... In  practice, all configuration are pretty close, or one will be a but stronger in a situation, then a bit below for the next one, etc.

Edited June 18, 2021 by Zhaid Zhem.6508

[Crystal Paladin.3871]

Ok.. now I notice one thing thats odd... even if teh condi damage stat in equipment panel is higher for elementalist rune variation, the bursting sigil calculates the % condi dmg during combat and not before... and that 5% of condi dmg enhances the weapon skills condi dmg... or does it enhance the overall condi dmg stat by 5% idk...

 

 

now I'm confused here...  sry for dragging this further...

is the following statements true?

1) condi duration and condi damage stat in equipment panel shows the maximum condi damage that can be inflicted by the build for the maximum condi duration supported by the build stats (not taking into account the bursting sigil)

2) if a weapon skill inflicts a condition only for (total condi duration - y) secs then that condi damage will be al ways less than the maximum condi damage that can be inflicted by the build but it can be improved by percentage increase of condi damage provided by sigil of bursting

3) so,

 build1 equipment panel condi dmg :10, condi duration:1 sec (with bursting sigil) => 50 dps

 build2 equipment panel condi dmg:10, condi duration:1sec (without bursting sigil) => 10 dps

 

are all the 3 statements true?

hope the answer to this comment clarify me

 

thx in advance

Edited June 18, 2021 by Crystal Paladin.3871

[Dadnir.5038]

1 hour ago, Crystal Paladin.3871 said:

So.. this is where I might've gone wrong....  so... even if all the stats are equal, a sigil of bursting would do more dmg on weapon skills even though the condi damage and condi duration is equal for both builds?

like example:

build1: overall condi dmg:10 duration:10 (weapon with sigil of bursting sigil) => (x+y) dps

build2: overall condi dmg:10 duration:10 (weapon with sigil of malice sigil) => x dps

 

is that the reality? I thought the weapon skills are showing wrong numbers due to some bug in gw2skills.net webapp

 

can u confirm this is the truth? ie the sigil is more effective even if the total stats in equipment window is the same?

 

Let's make it simple.

Bleed formula at level 80: (0.06 * Condition Damage) + 22 damage per stack per second at level 80.

Sigil of Bursting take the result of this calcul and multiply it by 1.05

 

This is valid for every damaging condition.

[Crystal Paladin.3871]

5 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

 

Let's make it simple.

Bleed formula at level 80: (0.06 * Condition Damage) + 22 damage per stack per second at level 80.

Sigil of Bursting take the result of this calcul and multiply it by 1.05

 

This is valid for every damaging condition.

got it.. thx for the response... I was under the assumption that the % condi dmg will be included as part of equipment tab stats numbers similar t o how the % condi duration gets added to the equipment tab once we add a sigil with % condi duration o ra rune with % condi duration... my mistake.. the condi damage is not added to the equipment tab and it is only calculated apart from teh stats in equipment tab and during combat refelects in the weapon skills dmg..

 

 

tq

Edited June 18, 2021 by Crystal Paladin.3871

[Astralporing.1957]

21 hours ago, Crystal Paladin.3871 said:

got it.. thx for the response... I was under the assumption that the % condi dmg will be included as part of equipment tab stats numbers similar t o how the % condi duration gets added to the equipment tab once we add a sigil with % condi duration o ra rune with % condi duration... my mistake.. the condi damage is not added to the equipment tab and it is only calculated apart from teh stats in equipment tab and during combat refelects in the weapon skills dmg..

 

 

tq

The difference is due to two meanings of the "condition damage". Sigil of bursting increases condition damage, but it applies to the actual damage inflicted by conditions, not to the "condition damage" stat. As such, you will not see its results in the equipment tab stat numbers. Basically, it works the same as Sigil of Force (another sigil whose effects can not be seen on the stats page), but for condition damage.

Edited June 19, 2021 by Astralporing.1957

[Blumpf.2518]

6x Rune of the Elementalist:

+175 Power

+225 Condition Damage

10% Condition Duration

 

6x Rune of the Nightmare:

+175 Condition Damage

10% Fear Duration

20% Condition Duration

 

If you play Condition the powerbonus is almost useless because you dont have 100% critchance and no ferocity. And thats what makes power DPS strong. Only high power without enough critchance and ferocity does very little DPS.

The 50 less Condition Damage is only a very small DPS loss, BUT 10% less Condition Duration is a HUGE DPS loss.

For your main Conditions you want to reach 100% Duration.

 

If you play Rune of the Elementalist you need something else for Condition Duration like the 10% Condition Duration Sigill, while with Nightmare Runes you could play with Sigill of Torment + Sigill of Earth or something like that.

 

And it also depends upon the class. If you play condi warrior or condi engineer, their main conditions are burning and bleeding, but they also get bleeding and burning duration from traits, so you dont need a Rune with a lot of condition duration.

Or for example Firebrand. A lot of burning and a bit of bleeding, but its enough if you maximize only the burning duration to deal high DPS.