Stealth removed on missed attacks/reflects

[crewthief.8649]

11 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Some of that is true, some isn't ... but the question is ... what does any of this have to do with the topic?

Berceuse all of these threads eventually boil down to their true intent: a hatred of the Thief class in general. Hatred by players that very, very rarely actually have a clue as to how the class functions and what its capabilities are. 

I mean, look at the comment you replied to; endless resets? Since when? How? 

Edited September 12, 2021 by crewthief.8649

[Zenith.7301]

21 minutes ago, crewthief.8649 said:

Cloak and Dagger costs a lot of initiative and is generally not worth that cost. Not to mention, it can be challenging to land it. Initiative does not regenerate so quickly that one can be as careless as they like. Also, why on earth would someone be spamming Heartseeker in stealth??? I mean, maybe a clueless noob Thief, but otherwise…

If the Thief resets the fight, then it resets for you as well. Nothing can be capped by a Thief in stealth, so these points are irrelevant and frankly meaningless. Thief is meant to control the tempo and conditions of a fight, thus, this aspect of the class is working as intended. They have 11k base HP and can be 100 to 0 in literal seconds by multiple classes, including Soulbeast (which can do it from 1500 range).

Finally, Thief does not have plenty of builds that will nearly one-shot. I don’t know where you’re getting that. You clearly do not like the Thief class nor the stealth mechanic in general, my best advice to you would be to learn how to counter stealth, because it isn’t going anywhere. Roll a Thief and go out there and dominate with it if it’s so simple.

 

 

lol, CnD hard to land, now I've truly read everything in this forum. An ability that can be precast before using steal to instantly land it with little telegraph. But sure, hard to land. Not that it matters, because D/P is the meta WvW build, and good luck preventing stealth from that when it's an aoe blind field they leap on to.

 

Thief cd's thanks to intitiative are natively lower than most classes, so the resets are not of equal value. The thief gains far more from it.

 

"Thief is meant to control the tempo of conditions of a fight", in other words, to be an utterly busted roamer in WvW.

 

"11k HP and can be 100 to 0 in literal seconds" Yeah right, as if this didn't apply to elementalist, who is actually forced to go celestial and tankier stats, unlike thief who can run mostly berzerkers as the only other class besides warrior who can successfully run zerkers in WvW. Because thief's defensive toolkit is one of the strongest and most overloaded in the game. A 15k base HP revenant in marauders gets 100-0 by a warrior's 100b+whirlwind combo anyways, so your point is moot. It takes 1-2 zerker backstabs to down most targets or put them in execute range of a heartseeker or autoattack chain. The only ones who survive are bunker builds, who you outlast anyways as they can never kill you, but their cooldowns to survive you are far longer than your offensive windows.

 

If thief stealth was as balanced as you pretend it is, WvW roaming wouldn't be swarming with them. Crying about Soulbeast's 6 second reveal on a 35 sec cd as if it were a counter to any remotely decent thief. Maybe it is you who should learn how the thief class functions.

Edited September 12, 2021 by Zenith.7301

[shrew.3059]

23 hours ago, Zenith.7301 said:

Thief needs the warrior treatment. Deadly bursts and CC attempts should have counterplay and failing to pull them off should mean getting downed, not "oops, played badly, time to shadowstep/stealth out and try again when my native low cd's are back up".

 

Ummm, Warriors have been successively hobbled to the point where I feel sorry for them, even as a Thief. But I’m sure you’re equally critical of professions like Guard, Necro, and Rev who all need buffs, right?

[Zenith.7301]

1 hour ago, shrew.3059 said:

 

Ummm, Warriors have been successively hobbled to the point where I feel sorry for them, even as a Thief. But I’m sure you’re equally critical of professions like Guard, Necro, and Rev who all need buffs, right?

 

 

Not really. Guard has been a stiffling staple of WvW frontlines, and necros have been the arms race to guards farting boons left and right.

 

Professions like engineer and elementalist need to be brought up to par, and thief and mesmer can be modified to trade their problematic roamer elements in exchange for better performance in group play in WvW.

[shrew.3059]

6 hours ago, Zenith.7301 said:

Professions like engineer

 

Except that Engineers have pretty good utility in all game modes. But sure, Thieves and Warrior need to trade off.

[Kodama.6453]

On 7/14/2021 at 6:55 PM, Dadnir.5038 said:

First, most of the devs that created the core of the game have left and even when there were some remaining, they were affraid of touching the core mechanism, fearing to simply break the game.

 

So no, I wouldn't expect anet to "fix their spaghetti code to make sure heartseeker out of smoke field don't count as a missed attack". Furthermore, leap finisher aren't the only finisher that end up giving stealth, blast finisher exist as well.

 

Many thing could go wrong like cleave and aoe no longer hiting more than a single target because the other aren't selected... etc.

 

Keep in mind that the game isn't as solid and flexible as you think and the current devs aren't as experienced with the game infrastructure than they could have been in 2013.

Instead of counting every attack which doesn't connect with a target as missed, it is way easier to just make it count as a miss if:

- the enemy dodged the attack

- the thief misses because they were blinded

 

Then the smoke field combos are no problem in this case. You can still use combo attacks to gain stealth, but once you aim at a target and you miss because of these additional mechanics (evade/blind), you are revealed.

[Zenith.7301]

9 hours ago, shrew.3059 said:

 

Except that Engineers have pretty good utility in all game modes. But sure, Thieves and Warrior need to trade off.

 

 

Utility only gets you so far. Look at the distribution of engineers vs. guardian/warrior/revenant in zerg gameplay. Look at ele vs. necro, which you completely glossed over because you seem more interested in dismissing criticism of thief gameplay in WvW.

 

There should be a healthier spread of professions in group WvW play than there is at present. Boons are too strong relative to other utilities and too easy to produce. As a result, necro is ridiculously strong as a source of boon conversion and condi application to bypass the myriad boons that counetr power damage, while resolution is much more limited in availability (and monopolized by guardians and to a much lesser extent revenants).

 

Classes that only roam only do so because they really have no options. Thief, mesmer, ele, ranger, engineer all tilt towards roaming because their balancing and toolkit is not up to par for large group play. Mesmer will need a serious retooling of how clones and shatters work, on top of revising wells, mantras, and maybe null field/time warp. But the other professions are much simpler to tinker with to make good for group play.

[shrew.3059]

1 hour ago, Zenith.7301 said:

Utility only gets you so far. Look at the distribution of engineers vs. guardian/warrior/revenant in zerg gameplay. Look at ele vs. necro, which you completely glossed over because you seem more interested in dismissing criticism of thief gameplay in WvW.

 

 

I’m not dismissing them, but I didn’t pile on in a “nerf Engineer” thread so maybe that’s why I didn’t mention them. Also, Engineers are definitely desirable in zerg gameplay, which you have repeatedly glossed over because you seem more interested in nerfing Thieves.

 

I also have an Engineer, by the way, and I remember when we had to play piano just to scrape by. Engineers are fine now, but keep acting like Warriors and Thieves are the problem.

[Zenith.7301]

8 minutes ago, shrew.3059 said:

 

I’m not dismissing them, but I didn’t pile on in a “nerf Engineer” thread so maybe that’s why I didn’t mention them. Also, Engineers are definitely desirable in zerg gameplay, which you have repeatedly glossed over because you seem more interested in nerfing Thieves.

 

I also have an Engineer, by the way, and I remember when we had to play piano just to scrape by. Engineers are fine now, but keep acting like Warriors and Thieves are the problem.

 

 

It's not a pile on. It's a popular expression of an observation that any player who's not biased about thief balance in WvW roaming will make. These threads keep popping up because stealth as it exists in this game bothers enough people to keep making these threads. Not that it's uniquely restricted to this game; stealth has to be done properly; in WoW, rogues are equally toxic in open world PvP and I suspect this kind of low risk gameplay of playing a class that decides when to engage and disengage at will with no input from the enemy on their ability to disengage is what drives many people to complain and the many players who enjoy the zero risk gank squads to defend them as their enjoyment hinges on the imbalance in terms of engagement.

[shrew.3059]

51 minutes ago, Zenith.7301 said:

It's a popular expression of an observation that any player who's not biased about thief balance in WvW roaming will make.

 

For the record, I don’t run a stealth build when I roam, but I must be still be biased because I disagree with you. I’ll just show myself out then and you can continue preaching to the choir.

[Zenith.7301]

1 hour ago, shrew.3059 said:

 

For the record, I don’t run a stealth build when I roam, but I must be still be biased because I disagree with you. I’ll just show myself out then and you can continue preaching to the choir.

 

You are biased because any adjustments to the class affect you, whether you use the build currently or not. It limits your options, and when you describe calls for adjustments as a "pile on", you are in no position to be lecturing others from a position of impartiality.

[shrew.3059]

19 minutes ago, Zenith.7301 said:

 

You are biased because any adjustments to the class affect you, whether you use the build currently or not. It limits your options, and when you describe calls for adjustments as a "pile on", you are in no position to be lecturing others from a position of impartiality.

 

So you’ve decided that no matter what I say, I cannot have a valid opinion on any change that would limit my options. No Thief can ever have an opinion because they are automatically biased. You, however, are free to have opinions on whatever profession you desire without such a burden.

 

You’ve set the terms of discussion so as to preclude any possibility of disagreement, so I can only conclude you don’t want a discussion but to (figuratively) hear the sound of your own voice.