New path to legendary armor?

[Obtena.7952]

2 minutes ago, Zalavaaris.5329 said:

What metric are you using to determine this? What proof do you have for that claim?

So it's your understanding that most people have lots of legendary gear? That there isn't a missed opportunity for Anet to have more activities that engage players in getting legendaries? I'm pretty sure neither of those is true.

Edited July 18, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Sobx.1758]

6 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

None I guess. I mean ,I don't see anyone 'disproving' that the game fails to engage most of its players in legendary gear getting-activities. 

Oh you've read my posts and dodged, so you clearly did see "disproving" and no amount of you running away from it now will change it 🙂  

And you were saying legendaries drive activities (in the same post you've tried to say it doesn't work, depending on what context you were trying to use it for LOL), so again repeating "not changing anything" while you actively and constantly keep going back and forth on your own words just doesn't work. It changes what you said and that's exactly why you're going back and forth on it or straight up dodge whole responses. Because you know what you said in this thread is wrong.

 

Edited July 18, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Zalavaaris.5329]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

Because Anet making a game around content that most people don't care about is a pretty bad value-offering to players. 

What content is that? If you're argument is specifically around legendary armor ALL 3 end game modes offer the reward.... its an end game reward for end game content. I think a less significant player base is one that doesn't do wvw, doesn't pvp, doesn't raid, doesn't do fractals. Maybe they should add a piece of legendary armor to the end of the monthly log in rewards? Im getting a feeling that you think the majority of players log in, pet bunny rabbits, throw snowballs at kids and log out perma locked at lvl 42

[Obtena.7952]

4 minutes ago, Zalavaaris.5329 said:

What content is that?

Any content. I mean ... if WHATEVER content is related to getting legendary gear and people don't care about getting it, those people don't do that content to get the gear. 

Edited July 18, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Zalavaaris.5329]

3 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Any content. I mean ... if WHATEVER content is related to getting legendary gear and people don't care about getting it, those people don't do that content to get the gear. 

Then they won't get it. It's one of those scenarios where if you're hungry enough, you'll eat. If you don't want to do the content that bad then you don't want the rewards enough. It's perfectly ok that some people will NEVER get the rewards. That's fine.

Edited July 18, 2021 by Zalavaaris.5329

[Obtena.7952]

3 minutes ago, Zalavaaris.5329 said:

Then they won't get it. It's one of those scenarios where if you're hungry enough, you'll eat. If you don't want to do the content that bad then you don't want the rewards enough.

That's right, and that's a big missed opportunity for Anet to engage players with content they have put into the game. So again, I'm not sure why this is a hard concept for people. The more content people are engaged with, the more likely they are to continue playing the game. Legendary gear is NOT excluded from that very basic MMO business concept. 

Edited July 18, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Sobx.1758]

2 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That's right, and that's a big missed opportunity for Anet to engage players with content they have put into the game. So again, I'm not sure why this is a hard concept for people. The more content people are engaged with, the more likely they are to play game. 

Legendary armor isn't content, it's a reward for playing through content.

 

You're arguing for putting that reward behind the content the players already play anyways and then try to argue that it changes antyhing about their activity. 🙃 It just doesn't. 

 

Edited July 18, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Obtena.7952]

1 minute ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Legendary armor isn't content, it's a reward for playing through content.

Yup, and if it's a reward people can't get because it's not content they want to do, they are less engaged with the game. I don't know why anyone would think there isn't a miss with. 

Edited July 18, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Zalavaaris.5329]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

That's right, and that's a big missed opportunity for Anet to engage players with content they have put into the game. So again, I'm not sure why this is a hard concept for people. The more content people are engaged with, the more likely they are to play game. 

But it's ok, you're not going to get every player to engage with every bit of content. They can't make a game where every player wants to do everything. It's an mmo where you engage the content YOU want. Some people don't even play the game other than making money on the TP. That's not how I'd want to play but it's how they enjoy it. Who gaf if less people play it? It's important for the game to have a variety of content for everyone and rewards that reflect the modes skill requirement/accessibility. 

[Sobx.1758]

1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Yup, and if it's a reward people can't get because it's not content they want to do, they are less engaged with the game. 

You're arguing for putting that reward behind the content the players already play anyways and then try to argue that it changes anything about their activity or engagement. 🙃 It just doesn't.

 

Edited July 18, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Obtena.7952]

Just now, Zalavaaris.5329 said:

But it's ok, you're not going to get every player to engage with every bit of content. 

Yeah, it is OK. I'm not saying it's a problem. I'm saying it's a big missed opportunity for Anet to take content they have put lots of effort to create ... and not package it in a way that most people are interested in doing it. 

[Sobx.1758]

1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Yeah, it is OK. I'm not saying it's a problem. I'm saying it's a big missed opportunity for Anet to take content they have put lots of effort to create ... and not package it in a way that most people are interested in doing it. 

Again: not content, reward.

[Obtena.7952]

1 minute ago, Sobx.1758 said:

You're arguing for putting that reward behind the content the players already play anyways and then try to argue that it changes anything about their activity or engagement. 🙃 It just doesn't.

 

Sure it does. Lots of people do content to get the rewards it offers. Expanding how Legendary gear is obtained in content most people do will most certainly change their engagement.  

[Zalavaaris.5329]

4 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Yeah, it is OK. I'm not saying it's a problem. I'm saying it's a big missed opportunity for Anet to take content they have put lots of effort to create ... and not package it in a way that most people are interested in doing it. 

I would say the amount of effort put into raid content is far less than living world. That's why you see living world updates all the time while going 2 years between raids. I'd say the resource assignment at anet is being done by people who know the actual metrics better than any of us.

Edited July 18, 2021 by Zalavaaris.5329

[Sobx.1758]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

Sure it does. Lots of people do content to get the rewards it offers. Expanding how Legendary gear is obtained in content most people do will most certainly change their engagement.  

People are spamming meta events and world bosses.

You put legendary items before what they're already spamming anyways.

???

Nothing changes. So no, it clearly doesn't.

[Obtena.7952]

4 minutes ago, Zalavaaris.5329 said:

I would say the amount of effort put into raid content is far less than living world. That's why you see them all the time while going 2 years between raids. I'd say the resource assignment at anet is being done by people who know the actual metrics better than any of us.

OK, but I'm not specifying raids here. What I'm saying is a very generalized truth. Anet creates some 'stuff', very few people care because the 'stuff' is related to content they aren't engaged with. Thus, opportunity to engage more players with putting 'stuff' in content they ARE interested in and likely leading to sustained engagement in the game overall. It should be obvious why there is a mutual interest for players and Anet for that opportunity to be looked at. 

Edited July 18, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Zalavaaris.5329]

6 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

OK, but I'm not specifying raids here. What I'm saying is a very generalized truth. Anet creates some 'stuff', very few people care because the 'stuff' is related to content they aren't engaged with. Thus, opportunity to engage more players with putting 'stuff' in content they ARE interested in. It should be obvious why there is a mutual interest for players and Anet for that opportunity to be looked at. 

Ok you could say the same for wvw and pvp. The updates for those modes are even less than raids.

 

 

Edited July 18, 2021 by Zalavaaris.5329

[Obtena.7952]

Just now, Zalavaaris.5329 said:

Ok you could say the same for wvw and pvp. The updates for those modes are even less than raids.

OK you could. That doesn't change what I'm saying here. 

 

Anet creates some 'stuff', very few people care because the 'stuff' is related to content they aren't engaged with. Thus, opportunity to engage more players with putting 'stuff' in content they ARE interested in and likely leading to sustained engagement in the game overall. It should be obvious why there is a mutual interest for players and Anet for that opportunity to be looked at. 

Edited July 18, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Zalavaaris.5329]

5 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

OK you could. That doesn't change what I'm saying here. 

 

Anet creates some 'stuff', very few people care because the 'stuff' is related to content they aren't engaged with. Thus, opportunity to engage more players with putting 'stuff' in content they ARE interested in and likely leading to sustained engagement in the game overall. It should be obvious why there is a mutual interest for players and Anet for that opportunity to be looked at. 

The problem I have is this. What is the biggest game mode people do in this game? I don't have the specific answer as I don't work on the team. But I would guess open world, leveling, and story/living world. SO if you add these end game rewards to the already most popular mode and the EASIEST game mode no less, why would anyone pursue the other content? You bring up engaging content but adding these alternate routes would butcher the harder content communities. A PERFECT example of this is the new legendary amulet coming for the living world revisit achievements. That is by far the most brain dead legendary in the game. It's literally being handed out to anyone regardless of player ability. I wanted to go for the pvp amulet to finish my set. Now theres no chance in hell im going to do that because It's content I already don't want to do AND now theres an easy easy alternative to it. Why ever enter the mode? 

[Sobx.1758]

7 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

OK you could. That doesn't change what I'm saying here. 

 

Anet creates some 'stuff', very few people care because the 'stuff' is related to content they aren't engaged with. Thus, opportunity to engage more players with putting 'stuff' in content they ARE interested in and likely leading to sustained engagement in the game overall. It should be obvious why there is a mutual interest for players and Anet for that opportunity to be looked at. 

Putting "stuff" behind content people are already engaged with isn't increasing their engagement with the same content. So still no.

 

Edited July 18, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, syNN.8529 said:

i dont think anyone has a problem with ppl getting the ability to achieve a legy set through OW content. the main topic is, that some ppl ask for it, which is understandable and fine to ask for, but are not willing to put in equal amounts of effort as for the existing sets. it is not a question of OW-ppl to not get it, it is about the ridiculous ideas of how cheap that set should be to achieve.

 

no one with a bit of working brain left in their heads has a problem with ppl obtaining it different ways, if the amount of effort to put in equals the other ways of obtaining a legy set.

First, yes, there are numerous people in this very thread that oppose the very idea of OW legendary armor set, even before we'd start talking about requirements. Second, there seems to be a massive difference about what constitutes "equal amount of effort". For example, i've had people tell me that to equal even the first (easiest) of raid sets in effort, the PvE armor would have to require literal years of massive daily grind. Or that the OW effort just doesn't count at all.

 

Quote

as mentioned in previous posts, farming OW content for 66 hours (what some suggested) which is lowest difficulty content in the game, would highly devalue a 300+ hour spvp armor grind (which is not tied to any other skill than patience).

It's probably because those "66 hours" in PvE would still be tied to some specific types of content, not to general PvE play. If you could pursue your PvE armor set just by playing whatever you normally play, without deviating from it, then there's absolutely no problem in it requiring similar time investment as WvW or SPvP sets. If it would require something more specific though (dungeons, fractals, specific map metas, specific map currencies), the time requirements should be reduced. To how many hours, it is arguable, of course, but just picking one post as an argument to throw the whole idea out of the window (which i see a number of people doing) is either a severe overreaction, or just plain unwillingness to even debate the idea at all, and using that post as an excuse, don't you think?

 

In general, WvW takes around 22+ weeks (29+weeks for the upgraded skin) of time investment, with time per week required depending on your "veterancy" in mode, overall situation on your server at that time, and how much time you waste every day on getting participation tier 3. It can end up as anything between 40 and below 10 hours per week (with 20+ hour requirements for people that are not regular players of that mode).

As such, for OW we could probably expect around ~25 weeks per ~2 hours daily of effort to a total of 350+ hours. If, again, that was a general effort with no special requirements. If special requirements were to be added, they should decrease the necessary weekly time investment, but probably should not reduce the overall time (the number of weeks). You could do this by using some repeatable timegated achievements.

 

That, of course, for the general OW set. In case of my suggestion of the AP-locked set, i don't think significant time requirements in crafting/obtaining materials are necessary, because of the effort required to even get to the point where you can start crafting it.

 

Quote

the amounts of effort are unequal this is why some ppl consider that approach as "some are asking for legy stuff for free".

Like the people that considered 30k AP to be "low effort"? Yes, some people that do not like the idea prefer to use massive exagerrations to make it seem  ridiculous, but that just makes their arguments something that shouldn't be treated seriously.

 

Edited July 18, 2021 by Astralporing.1957

[Astralporing.1957]

3 minutes ago, Zalavaaris.5329 said:

The problem I have is this. What is the biggest game mode people do in this game? I don't have the specific answer as I don't work on the team. But I would guess open world, leveling, and story/living world. SO if you add these end game rewards to the already most popular mode and the EASIEST game mode no less, why would anyone pursue the other content?

Because they like it? That should be the primary purpose of playing any content. There should still be rewards, of course, but their purpose should not be to bring in people that do not like it to play that content. It should be to make players that do like that content do not feel they're losing out by playing it.

 

In general, for devs, it should not matter what content any specific player engages with. They only thing they should care about is whether the player wants to play the game at all.

 

3 minutes ago, Zalavaaris.5329 said:

You bring up engaging content but adding these alternate routes would butcher the harder content communities.

That only would happen if those harder content communities care more about the rewards than about the content. In which case the community is already in unhealthy state.

 

3 minutes ago, Zalavaaris.5329 said:

A PERFECT example of this is the new legendary amulet coming for the living world revisit achievements. That is by far the most brain dead legendary in the game. It's literally being handed out to anyone regardless of player ability. I wanted to go for the pvp amulet to finish my set. Now theres no chance in hell im going to do that because It's content I already don't want to do AND now theres an easy easy alternative to it. Why ever enter the mode? 

See? If you were a PvP player, you would not ask yourself that question.

 

Do you really think that PvP players want to see PvE people farming legendaries in their mode, only to leave PvP as soon as they obtain what they want? The SPvP community response to PvE players that swarmed their mode when the legendary backpack got introduced was mostly negative, and it caused a number of veteran, dedicated SPvP players to just quit. The people that farm SPvP fights nowadays, not really caring about whether they win or lose, because they are in there only for the rewards, and not for the content itself, are still one of the major negative issues that significantly diminish the fun of SPvP players that happen to get one of those farmers on team.

 

Ultimately, what every community wants to see is more players truly interested and invested in the content they like. They might believe that putting exclusive and desirable rewards in their mode will help to bring those players in, but ultimately it always ends the same. With players of said community not wanting to play with those that came for rewards only, and asking for means to stop them from coming.

[Zalavaaris.5329]

Just now, Astralporing.1957 said:

Because they like it? That should be the primary purpose of playing any content. There should still be rewards, of course, but their purpose should not be to bring in people that do not like it to play that content. It should be to make players that do like that content do not feel they're losing out by playing it.

 

In general, for devs, it should not matter what content any specific player engages with. They only thing they should care about is whether the player wants to play the game at all.

 

That only would happen if those harder content communities care more about the rewards than about the content. In which case the community is already in unhealthy state.

 

See? If you were a PvP player, you would not ask yourself that question.

 

Do you really think that PvP players want to see PvE people farming legendaries in their mode, only to leave PvP as soon as they obtain what they want? The SPvP community response to PvE players that swarmed their mode when the legendary backpack got introduced was mostly negative, and it caused a number of veteran, dedicated SPvP players to just quit. The people that farm SPvP fights nowadays, not really caring about whether they win or lose, because they are in there only for the rewards, and not for the content itself, are still one of the major negative issues that significantly diminish the fun of SPvP players that happen to get one of those farmers on team.

 

Ultimately, what every community wants to see is more players truly interested and invested in the content they like. They might believe that putting exclusive and desirable rewards in their mode will help to bring those players in, but ultimately it always ends the same. With players of said community not wanting to play with those that came for rewards only, and asking for means to stop them from coming.

I was responding to a comment about rewards engaging people in playing content. Like it or not, mmo's drive content engagement by offering rewards. Want the best gear? Better do the hard stuff. You see someone standing around with awesome flowing tentacle beams coming from their armor and ask, woaaa where did you get that, the person says a high rank in WvW etc. etc. Then the person interested understands that is what they need to do to get the reward. I think I'm done typing. It's going to be an agree to disagree moment. Although consider that anet agrees with us or open world would have legendary armor by now. Have a good one and I hope the people who want the rewards get off the forums and get into a group.

[Astralporing.1957]

5 minutes ago, Zalavaaris.5329 said:

I was responding to a comment about rewards engaging people in playing content. Like it or not, mmo's drive content engagement by offering rewards. Want the best gear? Better do the hard stuff. You see someone standing around with awesome flowing tentacle beams coming from their armor and ask, woaaa where did you get that, the person says a high rank in WvW etc. etc. Then the person interested understands that is what they need to do to get the reward. I think I'm done typing. It's going to be an agree to disagree moment. Although consider that anet agrees with us or open world would have legendary armor by now. Have a good one and I hope the people who want the rewards get off the forums and get into a group.

Yes, but the rewards should be there to get the player engaged in the game, and increase the enjoyment they derive from playing it. Not to drive players that dislike certain content into it, which may end up decreasing that enjoyment.

 

Do you really think it's a good idea to create game designs that result in players liking the game less?

 

To better describe what i am talking about: the Envoy set did indeed increase my engagement with Raids... for a time. In the long run however, it decreased my engagement with the game.

Edited July 18, 2021 by Astralporing.1957

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, Zalavaaris.5329 said:

The problem I have is this. What is the biggest game mode people do in this game? I don't have the specific answer as I don't work on the team. But I would guess open world, leveling, and story/living world. SO if you add these end game rewards to the already most popular mode and the EASIEST game mode no less, why would anyone pursue the other content? You bring up engaging content but adding these alternate routes would butcher the harder content communities. A PERFECT example of this is the new legendary amulet coming for the living world revisit achievements. That is by far the most brain dead legendary in the game. It's literally being handed out to anyone regardless of player ability. I wanted to go for the pvp amulet to finish my set. Now theres no chance in hell im going to do that because It's content I already don't want to do AND now theres an easy easy alternative to it. Why ever enter the mode? 

My argument there is that if we assume most people play casually, they aren't 'pursuing' content they don't want to play for those rewards anyways but likely have no problem engaging in content they do want to play for longer if they have those long term rewards as a reason to do so. I'm pretty casual ... my 'longest' term goal to engage in a map/LS is simply the rewards it offers. In most cases, that's not even the map achievement. Think about that. If I'm typical, then that means the standard 'engagement' of a casual player for a map or event is around one month. That's pretty bad for long term engagement. Why do you think we have the current LS 'reissue' happening for the next 3-4 months? Because Anet needs casual player money and they don't have any significant long term goals that those players are willing to do. 

 

I mean, removing casual players simply seeking legendary armor by doing raids would butcher the raid community? That's pretty far fetched considering how hard done by the raid element of the game is ALREADY considering we are ALREADY making casual players seek legendary armor doing raids wouldn't you say? Put another way ... don't you think the lack of success of raid content is a strong indicator of how willing casual players are willing to subject themselves to that content, EVEN if  it's the primary path for them to get legendary armor? 

Edited July 18, 2021 by Obtena.7952