Marionette...the achievements are poorly designed

[Asum.4960]

11 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

You mean squad leaders in private instances can't kick people out for any reason they feel like?  If that's not gate keeping what is it. 

See I don't care if you want to have an elite group or even an elitist group. But leave the public so the 90% can play too, that's all I'm saying. Because if they remove the public most of the groups won't be very welcoming.  Not after the first few fails anyway.

I mean everybody has the ability to post an LFG and be the Squadleader, with whatever requirements, or lack thereof, they want - and no other player has the ability to gate them from doing so, for any content in the game. 

 

9 minutes ago, Dante.1763 said:

Ive seen it happen, they get thrown onto one of the other platforms, so one or two platforms will have 3-4players, and 2 will have two players, leaving one empty. Its an old issue that was present in the og marionette as well.

 

Not gonna respond further about the rest, its off topic: ive said my piece about it and my own experiences with that group as a collective.

 

Regardless theres a way to please both sides and both player groups, i hope anet does it and leaves the public version in or makes it an annual or semi annual event.

 

Interesting, and yes, ofc that needs fixing if it's a straight up bug that happens regardless of organization. 

 

And I agree, I was actually surprised to learn that the public version would disappear. 

Sure, eventually multiple things going on at the same timer may split players and cause problems for some Meta events and such, but with another expansion coming at the very least that seems inevitable anyway - may as well give players options and work to make less played things more interesting and enticing from there.

[Dante.1763]

1 minute ago, Asum.4960 said:

I mean everybody has the ability to post an LFG and be the Squadleader, with whatever requirements, or lack thereof, they want - and no other player has the ability to gate them from doing so, for any content in the game. 

 

 

Interesting, and yes, ofc that needs fixing if it's a straight up bug that happens regardless of organization. 

 

And I agree, I was actually surprised to learn that the public version would disappear. 

Sure, eventually multiple things going on at the same timer may split players and cause problems for some Meta events and such, but with another expansion coming at the very least that seems inevitable anyway - may as well give players options and work to make less played things more interesting and enticing from there.

Yup! Hell it even happened in my public run to a lesser degree. All the platforms had 4 people on them but the one right next me, had 2. Watching then struggle with the boss hurt.

 

honestly anet could do alot to entice players to do content that isnt done. Rotate out an event of the week that drops the bonus boxes marionettes been getting. Do some of the metas that arent done at all(pof metas), and some that are done rarely(vb night meta), keep events like marionette as part of the rotation. Marionette, breachmaker, battle of la, then move on to the lesser events for a few weeks. It would sure add more rewards to some of the events that are laking.

[Omega.6801]

Be there on time and you have the freedom of choice. Come 10min late and take what's left...or possibly screw over the instance and just go where you want. Never had this problem,not at its original release and not now.🤷‍♂️
 

[The Boz.2038]

1 hour ago, Asum.4960 said:

I mean everybody has the ability to post an LFG and be the Squadleader, with whatever requirements, or lack thereof, they want - and no other player has the ability to gate them from doing so, for any content in the game. 

Literally not true. Again proving you don't know what you're talking about.

Private is a 50-man instance. You can't start a 50-man group without a 300 gold tax. And if you start a 10-man squad, it can be hijacked, new filteres added, and you booted. 

[Asum.4960]

34 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Literally not true. Again proving you don't know what you're talking about.

Private is a 50-man instance. You can't start a 50-man group without a 300 gold tax. And if you start a 10-man squad, it can be hijacked, new filteres added, and you booted. 

Right.. what I fail to understand is how that 300g cost of a Commander tag is discriminating between different player types. 

Do you want to go down the line all the way to the game purchase trying to find an argument along the way? 

 

During no point from game purchase, to leveling to gearing to farming gold to buying a tag to making an LFG to experiencing any and all content with any requirements or lack thereof however you want can any other player gate you from doing so. 

 

The only thing they can do, after they have done all that themselves, is gate you from their groups, just like you can if you do all that. 

If you make an all welcome group for something because that's how you like to play and someone joins demanding that you require KP/LI and starts flaming people, they are being a toxic idiot and you should probably kick them.

If someone is making an LI/KP gated group because that's how they want to play and someone joins calling them elitist and toxic and that they are gating people from content, demanding they remove the requirements, they are being a toxic idiot and should probably be kicked. 

 

In neither case is and can content itself be gated. 

Make your own groups (something every player has equal access to), write an LFG that attracts the type of player with whom you want to play and have fun. 

 

Some players on this forum genuinely have spent so much time demonizing Raiders for gating and what have you that in that time they could have earned and bought a tag, put together a group of likeminded individuals and learned and cleared enough Raids in the friendly and productive environment they wish to create to get multiple sets of legendary armor - during which they probably would have encountered enough entitled and hostile underperforming pugs raging at them that they would start gating themselves.

 

[The Boz.2038]

"Elitists can't discriminate against you if you toss 300g to become the elitists!"

[Astralporing.1957]

2 hours ago, Asum.4960 said:

I mean everybody has the ability to post an LFG and be the Squadleader, with whatever requirements, or lack thereof, they want

Well, no, not everybody. Size 50 squads require commander tag. Most players don't have one.

[Vayne.8563]

8 hours ago, Asum.4960 said:

I mean everybody has the ability to post an LFG and be the Squadleader, with whatever requirements, or lack thereof, they want - and no other player has the ability to gate them from doing so, for any content in the game. 

 

 

Interesting, and yes, ofc that needs fixing if it's a straight up bug that happens regardless of organization. 

 

And I agree, I was actually surprised to learn that the public version would disappear. 

Sure, eventually multiple things going on at the same timer may split players and cause problems for some Meta events and such, but with another expansion coming at the very least that seems inevitable anyway - may as well give players options and work to make less played things more interesting and enticing from there.

I feel like you don't understand casual players at all. Many don't even have 300 gold tags and you can't start it with a mentor tag.  Many don't feel confident to tag up. Many are followers not leaders.  A public instance is the solution. The people starting squads to do this in private won't be casuals. You can say they can. That's not the point. Right now they can enjoy the Marionette without having to. More to the point, when it was originally in the game that was the case as well.  

 

No casuals mostly just won't do it.  And that's a shame because it will become a harder core thing for hard core players. For a new event that wouldn't be as much of an issue, in the way it's not for strikes. This is something casuals could have and clearly enjoy in one form...in a different form just out of their reach. You don't have to agree. It doesn't make it less true.

[Asum.4960]

34 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

I feel like you don't understand casual players at all. Many don't even have 300 gold tags and you can't start it with a mentor tag.  Many don't feel confident to tag up. Many are followers not leaders.  A public instance is the solution. The people starting squads to do this in private won't be casuals. You can say they can. That's not the point. Right now they can enjoy the Marionette without having to. More to the point, when it was originally in the game that was the case as well.  

 

No casuals mostly just won't do it.  And that's a shame because it will become a harder core thing for hard core players. For a new event that wouldn't be as much of an issue, in the way it's not for strikes. This is something casuals could have and clearly enjoy in one form...in a different form just out of their reach. You don't have to agree. It doesn't make it less true.

I do agree with the Public Instance being a permanent installation, so you don't need to justify that, nor is there a need for hostility about that. 

 

What I disagree with you about is dressing up a failing of casual players at large to step up as a fault of hardcore players for supposedly gatekeeping the content. 

And just to be clear, the reluctance to do so is something I very much so relate to, I just disagree with then expecting or demanding others to do so for me, rather than seeking the fault within myself.  

 

Imo, if I don't want to be buy a tag, tag up, lead and organize, that's fine, but I can't then turn around and complain about those who do just because they don't do so to my specifications.

Edited July 19, 2021 by Asum.4960

[Vayne.8563]

3 hours ago, Asum.4960 said:

I do agree with the Public Instance being a permanent installation, so you don't need to justify that, nor is there a need for hostility about that. 

 

What I disagree with you about is dressing up a failing of casual players at large to step up as a fault of hardcore players for supposedly gatekeeping the content. 

And just to be clear, the reluctance to do so is something I very much so relate to, I just disagree with then expecting or demanding others to do so for me, rather than seeking the fault within myself.  

 

Imo, if I don't want to be buy a tag, tag up, lead and organize, that's fine, but I can't then turn around and complain about those who do just because they don't do so to my specifications.

You're missing my point completely so I'll try again.

It would be different if this was some new event, not one of the most loved events in the history of the game.  The expectation of many casuals when it came back was to have it available. Not everyone can play a lot every week. Some people will miss it. And the only chance for those people to get it after the fact is in a much more difficult instanced squad. 

So people who do it this week, who have time, who aren't sick or on vacation or busy with family stuff, those people will get those achievements easily.  But if you can't be here it's harder to get the same achievements. And people who loved the Marionette but weren't the best players will end up locked out of that content, because they don't have the skill to beat it. But if they could be here this week they'd have needed less skill.

With a new event what you're saying is fair. With a popular event, that so many people loved, locking people out or making them fail it 9 times to get one win (something they  wouldn't have to do if they were here this week) is unnecessarily punishing.  It's exactly the kind of thing that will set a casual player onto the thought process that the game is moving more toward the hard core. It's not true of course, but the popularity and visibility of this particular event will weigh more in the feelings of players.

If you feel it's okay to kitten off a percentage, perhaps a decent percentage of the casual majority (and I assure you the casual pve player base is the majority of players), that's okay. You can believe that's okay.

Because it worked really well when HoT came out. /s

[Asum.4960]

7 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

You're missing my point completely so I'll try again.

It would be different if this was some new event, not one of the most loved events in the history of the game.  The expectation of many casuals when it came back was to have it available. Not everyone can play a lot every week. Some people will miss it. And the only chance for those people to get it after the fact is in a much more difficult instanced squad. 

So people who do it this week, who have time, who aren't sick or on vacation or busy with family stuff, those people will get those achievements easily.  But if you can't be here it's harder to get the same achievements. And people who loved the Marionette but weren't the best players will end up locked out of that content, because they don't have the skill to beat it. But if they could be here this week they'd have needed less skill.

With a new event what you're saying is fair. With a popular event, that so many people loved, locking people out or making them fail it 9 times to get one win (something they  wouldn't have to do if they were here this week) is unnecessarily punishing.  It's exactly the kind of thing that will set a casual player onto the thought process that the game is moving more toward the hard core. It's not true of course, but the popularity and visibility of this particular event will weigh more in the feelings of players.

If you feel it's okay to kitten off a percentage, perhaps a decent percentage of the casual majority (and I assure you the casual pve player base is the majority of players), that's okay. You can believe that's okay.

Because it worked really well when HoT came out. /s

Fair enough. While I still don't like the usage of the gatekeeping buzzword earlier or the, although not necessarily in your case here, miscasting of blame on a minority of players that generally comes with it, which are also just as much a symptom of the issue, not cause - rather than recognizing the more uncomfortable general game design and balance issues leading to fundamental problems in the community that are the causes of this community split - I get where you are coming from, and as I stated multiples times before, I agree on the point of the public version being better permanent as well for those reasons. 

 

And no, despite what you may believe, I don't want to "kitten off casuals" for any or no reason, quite the contrary. I simply believe their antagonistic mindset towards more hardcore players to be highly unproductive, and constant accusations and hostilities towards them haven't been shown to be effective in making them more welcoming, quite the opposite, nor does it fix the games issues of (lack of) tutorialisation and difficulty that resulted in such massive skill gaps in the community that gating groups has become borderline necessary to reasonably get done anything that isn't OW. 

 

So those last two paragraphs weren't necessary. 

I want more casual players to have fun and be able to enjoy more challenging content, but they reason they can't isn't that more hardcore players still are - it stops at they simply can't (without being carried, which isn't something anyone is entitled to, or anyone can be blamed for not constantly being willing to do). 

And just to be clear, I'm not blaming more casual players for that fact either, that's something that has to change from the ground up in terms of game design, be it slightly more streamlined Traits and Gearing (at least less utterly dead/Trap choices), better tutorialization and more gently ramping difficulty, especially among more casual content such as Story and OW - not just in already deemed hardcore and scary instanced content, preaching to the choir. 

Skill is just like muscle after all, if you don't use it you lose it, if there is constant gentle pressure to have to use it more and more you get better without really trying to and given the right tools and knowledge can lead to massive improvements. 

 

So while blame is more easily cast than effecting change, casuals and hardcores throwing eggs as each other despite their heavy separation and problems with each other being both the symptoms of the same issue is getting fairly tiresome. 

 

Anyway, since we agree on the subject at hand of the Marionette, I'll leave it at that.

[Gorem.8104]

I've never done this boss before this week yet managed to get all of them easily enough, I'd doubt on the whole "poorly designed" part