I'm upset about Harbinger.

[KrHome.1920]

1 hour ago, VsmonxD.6810 said:

I think devs forgot to take core necro traits and play style into account when making this as vitality is the only reason Reaper and core Necro (and even Scourge) have such high survivability. Blight just gets rid of that.

[...]

And while I wasn't happy with the gun main at first (just thematically) I like the actual skills, but how does a ranged weapon (measly 900 range) tie in with melee shroud?

 

Big conceptual misunderstading here!

 

1) Harbinger scales as much with vitality as every other necro spec before. Vitality has always been a key attribute for the class. For harbinger the vitality is critical for 2 reasons:

- to have a viable amount of health after using shroud (building up blight) and

- to increase the regeneration outside of shroud (more vita = more healing)

 

2) Harbinger shroud is ranged. Shroud 1 and 2 are ranged damage and 3 is repositioning (defensively!). The only reason why you would go melee is a combo of shroud 4 and 5 to chain cc your targets, just to gtfo again with 3.

 

3) In the competitive modes you will run the quickness gm trait. That's a no brainer! It's super strong there and basically your only option.

For PvE group content or open world you can run the melee dps gm traits while your pocket guardian spams heals and aegis on you. These traits are useless for the competitive modes as within 2 ticks (3 seconds) you are dead.

Edited August 16, 2021 by KrHome.1920

[Wintermute.5408]

1 hour ago, KrHome.1920 said:

2) Harbinger shroud is ranged. Shroud 1 and 2 are ranged damage and 3 is repositioning (defensively!). The only reason why you would go melee is a combo of shroud 4 and 5 to chain cc your targets, just to gtfo again with 3.

But, the second skill shotguns. So for optimal damage it will put you in the face of things.

Edited August 16, 2021 by Wintermute.5408

[ovenglove.9528]

1 hour ago, KrHome.1920 said:

1) Harbinger scales as much with vitality as every other necro spec before. Vitality has always been a key attribute for the class. For harbinger the vitality is critical for 2 reasons:

- to have a viable amount of health after using shroud (building up blight) and

- to increase the regeneration outside of shroud (more vita = more healing)

 

2) Harbinger shroud is ranged. Shroud 1 and 2 are ranged damage and 3 is repositioning (defensively!). The only reason why you would go melee is a combo of shroud 4 and 5 to chain cc your targets, just to gtfo again with 3.

 

3) In the competitive modes you will run the quickness gm trait. That's a no brainer! It's super strong there and basically your only option.

For PvE group content or open world you can run the melee dps gm traits while your pocket guardian spams heals and aegis on you. These traits are useless for the competitive modes as within 2 ticks (3 seconds) you are dead.

1. agree

2. The grandmasters incentivise going melee, and it looks like due to the conal attacks on shroud 2 which seems to be the main dps skill you will do more dps in melee. I am not saying you are wrong, it is just there are benefits to being melee as harbinger, especially to land the skill 5.

 

3. I am thinking I would run the condi trait in competitive. I would be very worried about thieves, heralds, and willbenders who have more mobility and are mostly melee. They ahve the potentialo to really shut it down. Weakness is very powerful in pvp, and the torment as couterpressure.  

 

Overall my first impressions are that it would be good in group pve, just fine in open world with parasitic contagion and tormenting runes, and terrible in pvp. Since watching the stream again I think I have to play it to decide. If it is used in pvp I think you only flash shroud for a few seconds and reposition, mainly using life force for the regen. 

Edited August 16, 2021 by ovenglove.9528

[ZDragon.3046]

2 hours ago, KrHome.1920 said:

 

Big conceptual misunderstading here!

 

1) Harbinger scales as much with vitality as every other necro spec before. Vitality has always been a key attribute for the class. For harbinger the vitality is critical for 2 reasons:

- to have a viable amount of health after using shroud (building up blight) and

- to increase the regeneration outside of shroud (more vita = more healing)

 

This is incorrect information.

Because the things you listed apply to every other version of necromancer without the risk cost that harbinger is going to bring... additionally the number inside your life force bar does not matter with harbinger because that number is not used to protect your hp like it is on core and reaper. Because the number in that bar is always going to consume at 5% per second while active it does not matter how big you make the number because 5% will still be consumed per tick. 

 

The number in harbingers bar can be bigger like 23k or smaller like 13k and you still get a flat duration of 20s of H-shroud regardless. The only way to change this duration to be longer is to have incoming life force as your current amount drains through other sources. Thats how percentages work. So no you dont get more blight for having more shroud health that is incorrect information.

 

The regeneration aspect honestly has me lost but we dont know enough about how the healing passive works to say that it will scale well with vitality. Until we see what that trait looks like we cant assume what you just said is correct.

 

With core and reaper when you take damage in shroud the raw number is cut in half then taken out of your shroud meaning the higher the number in the bar the more effective hp you had.

With scourge the higher your base hp the bigger total barrier you can apply to yourself.

 

How does this mean that harbinger wont scale better?

Because when you take an extra 5k hp on core, reaper or scourge you gain the additional base hp value right away to your health orb. Additionally your shroud health gains 69% of  that 5k hp and with scourge your maximum barrier increases by 50% of that value

 

Example

Core necro or reaper gains 5k extra hp and the shrouds gain an additional 3450 points of what could be health used to soak attacks when shroud is active. This is effectively 6900 potential points of damage because the shrouds cut damage received in half. The only negative here is that you can be pushed out of shroud via taking damage. But the number in the bar has meaning.

Scourge gins 5k hp and its maximum barrier value that it can apply to itself increases by 2500 points

 

Harbinger gains 5k more hp and nothing else

as barrier is not something you will be applying to yourself on this elite and shroud health does not soak damage for you with this elite. Meaning the vitality has the least value here of any elite spec offered on necromancer. It will not scale better with vitality. It begs for more vitality due to the blight mechanic but this does not make it scale better than the other elite options do not be confused.

 

At best we an argue that a single trait allows for vitality to be converted to ferocity but if you really are building for ferocity or power damage you will just do that first. Potentially you could in theory min max your crit cap to the point where you are comfortable with before building vitality for a fraction of extra ferocity but there are still many other factors and this does not apply should you run the condition build or the boon support build paths.

 

 

Quote

2) Harbinger shroud is ranged. Shroud 1 and 2 are ranged damage and 3 is repositioning (defensively!). The only reason why you would go melee is a combo of shroud 4 and 5 to chain cc your targets, just to gtfo again with 3.

I also dont agree with the 3 skill here because its not really designed as repositioning or defensive tool Lets not try to claim its something its not. Its literally a gap closer that just so happens does not require you to have a target to use. You likely will find this skill being interrupted by quick cc and even some soft cc like immobilize because its not a true repositioning tool. Most true or well designed positioning tools cannot be easily interrupted and when they are its usually by freaky or lucky timing thats not easily replicated. You will see that skill interrupted alot once people adept to it because it uses the same animation as bull charge and burning speed which are some of the biggest TELLS TO ANY decent pvp player. Expect thieves to steal and stop it expect it to be head shot... expect it to be bulls charged etc etc... you will quickly find this skill lacking as true defensive tool.  

 

Edited August 16, 2021 by ZDragon.3046