Harbinger violently handicaps itself for things necromancer already has or doesn't need.

[FalsePromises.6398]

I'll dive right into the first problem: removing shroud health and half your healthpool sums to a near 80% loss of the necromancer’s total accessible health (shroud health is 69% of your base health, double counted because it halves incoming damage, so necromancer has about 238% of its visible healthpool with 100% life force and loses 188 points off that value). High vitality is a major reason necromancer is so powerful and reliable… no good. I’m fine with berserker-esque glassy specs but this is an unrepentant handicap if it steals 80% of your health cushioning. I've legitimately never been this disappointed in an elite spec, and I'm usually more of an optimist about getting new styles. It looks like harbinger was designed by a thief main who hates necromancer. 

 

The best it offers is a niche boon support role necromancer didn’t need (scourge was their creative support niche) and a non-menacing pewpew leapfrog shroud with non thematic cc’s and no debilitating conditions by default nor fear (an integral part of a lot of core traits e.g. fear of death, dread, terror), not to mention you need to be leghumping your enemies or allies to get most of the effectiveness from not just shroud but also elixirs. On that note, the least it could’ve been done was to allow 6-0 skills to work in shroud if life force no longer replaces health, but nope. Harbinger shroud is basically a self-handicapping holoforge. 

 

The power options for it still require you to be in close range like reaper does, especially given the grandmaster pulsing damage, the buckshot shroud attack, and the aoe float siphon. It doesn’t even offer a condi damage option that strays away from torment, which is already scourge’s domain, which makes it run into the same problem that its dps goes down when enemies start moving. If there had been more poison improvements and poison focus instead of torment application, death magic could be a legitimate contender with soulreaping’s monopoly on necromancer for its condi builds. Just theorizing on necromancer condi, curses is a must-have and soulreaping usually holds onto the next spec slot due to dhuumfire spam, but death magic’s putrid defense (10% more poison damage), deadly strength (300 more power with max death's carapace stacks), and death nova (poison fields on minion death, consider bone minion explosions) could have become far more appealing if harbinger expanded on poison, which would open more doors for the existing necromancer condition damage utilities like corrosive poison cloud or the aforementioned bone minion death novas, which leaves a perfect spot for blight to instead reduce toughness up to 600 points (or 300 if you're squeamish) to counterbalance death magic’s death carapace and its aggro-conflicting 600 bonus toughness. I'd much rather they have done that and (if they REALLY felt they needed to) just reduce the necromancer's base vitality by 300 or something and allow 6-0 skills in harbinger shroud AT LEAST to make up for losing shroud health. 

[susana.7814]

3 hours ago, FalsePromises.6398 said:

I'll dive right into the first problem: removing shroud health and half your healthpool sums to a near 80% loss of the necromancer’s total accessible health

 

High vitality is a major reason necromancer is so powerful and reliable…

 

The best it offers is a niche boon support role necromancer didn’t need (scourge was their creative support niche) and a non-menacing pewpew leapfrog shroud with non thematic cc’s and no debilitating conditions by default nor fear (an integral part of a lot of core traits e.g. fear of death, dread, terror), not to mention you need to be leghumping your enemies or allies to get most of the effectiveness from not just shroud but also elixirs. On that note, the least it could’ve been done was to allow 6-0 skills to work in shroud if life force no longer replaces health, but nope. Harbinger shroud is basically a self-handicapping holoforge. 

 

The power options for it still require you to be in close range like reaper does, especially given the grandmaster pulsing damage, the buckshot shroud attack, and the aoe float siphon. It doesn’t even offer a condi damage option that strays away from torment, which is already scourge’s domain, which makes it run into the same problem that its dps goes down when enemies start moving. If there had been more poison improvements and poison focus instead of torment application, death magic could be a legitimate contender with soulreaping’s monopoly on necromancer for its condi builds. Just theorizing on necromancer condi, curses is a must-have and soulreaping usually holds onto the next spec slot due to dhuumfire spam, but death magic’s putrid defense (10% more poison damage), deadly strength (300 more power with max death's carapace stacks), and death nova (poison fields on minion death, consider bone minion explosions) could have become far more appealing if harbinger expanded on poison, which would open more doors for the existing necromancer condition damage utilities like corrosive poison cloud or the aforementioned bone minion death novas, which leaves a perfect spot for blight to instead reduce toughness up to 600 points (or 300 if you're squeamish) to counterbalance death magic’s death carapace and its aggro-conflicting 600 bonus toughness. I'd much rather they have done that and (if they REALLY felt they needed to) just reduce the necromancer's base vitality by 300 or something and allow 6-0 skills in harbinger shroud AT LEAST to make up for losing shroud health. 

to point one....yes losing health for more dps...that's kind of the point to high risk high reward. Shroud was a handicap that kept us from getting any active defenses or actual decent dps numbers and I for one am perfectly fine with losing health for more power. 

Also high vitality literally does nothing. you still die just as fast. High vitality doesn't matter in the slightest.

Ummm also boon sharing IS something necro has needed for many years to be viable in most pve modes. the number one complaint is always " Necro too selfish" so this aims to remedy that. also i dont get your points about having to be in melee distance to boonshare, all boonshare classes are like that. FB, Alacren, Chrono, Druid, etc....

We also DID need mobility. that's a big deal for necro. We need active defense which we got in the form of an evade and much better cc skills. 

I don't get why everyone cares so much about fear, fear is the worst cc skill in the game. I'll take the aoe float over that any day. 

Most good condi builds rely on torment these days as well so im not sure that's really a valid complaint. 

Poison sucks as is. if it's going to be viable it needs a rework which i dont see happening just for harbinger. 

Edited August 14, 2021 by susana.7814

[FalsePromises.6398]

10 hours ago, susana.7814 said:

to point one....yes losing health for more dps...that's kind of the point to high risk high reward. Shroud was a handicap that kept us from getting any active defenses or actual decent dps numbers and I for one am perfectly fine with losing health for more power. 

Also high vitality literally does nothing. you still die just as fast. High vitality doesn't matter in the slightest.

Ummm also boon sharing IS something necro has needed for many years to be viable in most pve modes. the number one complaint is always " Necro too selfish" so this aims to remedy that. also i dont get your points about having to be in melee distance to boonshare, all boonshare classes are like that. FB, Alacren, Chrono, Druid, etc....

We also DID need mobility. that's a big deal for necro. We need active defense which we got in the form of an evade and much better cc skills. 

I don't get why everyone cares so much about fear, fear is the worst cc skill in the game. I'll take the aoe float over that any day. 

Most good condi builds rely on torment these days as well so im not sure that's really a valid complaint. 

Poison sucks as is. if it's going to be viable it needs a rework which i dont see happening just for harbinger. 

 

Allow me to clarify, because I think you're both misinterpreting some points AND are unaware of some things necromancer does. First and foremost, high risk high reward is fine and all, but devolving to the healthpool of an elementalist or thief without gaining similar active defenses like numerous evades, invulns, blinds, blocks, etc. (and not just one of one category, multiple of multiple of those categories) is the problem. You get one evade in harbinger shroud. Pistol is purely offensive, you have one interrupt. Elixirs won't save you when you see a maul coming, you still only have two dodge bars but no longer have shroud nor a 20k hp pool. 

 

Vitality DOES matter. Think zerker ele vs marauder ele. It's not about damage reduction, it's about how much incoming damage you can recover from or endure long enough to counter or react to. Necromancer had a large amount of health in shroud and base healthpool that allowed it to eat many things, and on top of that it had debilitating conditions that weakened and pressured enemies in shroud, which this new shroud doesn't have (no immob, chill, reveal, etc.).

 

Furthermore, you're missing out on the further implications of harbinger shroud when you say "boonshares always stay close". It's visibly not just a boonshare build, but also has power and condi aspects. From those, you can easily see you need to be in near point blank range, whether it's the shroud buckshot, the close range float, or the pulsing area effects from the grandmasters. At least the buckshot doesn't have absurd spread, but still. 

 

If you wanted mobility on necromancer, just take sand swell and/or flesh wurm. Those two were FAR more than enough back in my days of dueling on scourge (which are no more since I quit pvp for good about half a year ago, much to my pleasure). People even complained I had TOO much mobility. Even on reaper or core you can take speed runes since necromancer has no shortage of swiftness, which gives passive movement increase that makes necromancer almost oppressively mobile at times. Necromancer wasn't in dire need of mobility unless you were unskilled or purposely building to not have it. 

 

Now, fear. People care about fear because it IS a strong control effect. It disrupts enemy positioning and simultaneously has many great benefits in the traits, such as Fear of Death (life force regen and duration bonus), Dread (quickness/fury), Shivers of Dread (chill on fear, reaper only though), or Terror (pulsing damage on fear, not too hot nowadays but still there). Fear also creates gaps between you and your enemy if you use it right, or gives you windows like any other control effect to hit hard. It may be counterable by cleanses AND stunbreaks, but it's still a vital effect for necromancer and just as effective as any other CC. 

 

Also necromancer already has a torment condi spec. My point is that it doesn't bring anything new to the table to add another one that focuses on the exact same conditions that have the exact same drawbacks. In the same way, adding another melee-radius-leaning power damage spec falls into that same reaper territory. Anyway, no condition sucks by default if you apply enough of it and/or have enough multipliers on it, so don't just hand-wave off poison as a bad condition. 

 

Lastly I don't know where you're getting this "necromancers aren't wanted anywhere in pve because they're considered too selfish" from when scourge is one of the most powerful and reliable condi dps builds around that also offers worthwhile barrier to allies, to the extent they're still nerfing its noncommittal barrier options come next Tuesday. Reapers are worthwhile for roundups with chilling grasp or for a more self reliant dps build, scourges with epidemic can excel greatly on multi target fights, healscourges are iconic supports that aren't as useful everywhere but DEFINITELY aren't useless and are integral to some raids and strikes as well as very strong in open world. Healscourge is what made me decide to commit to maining necromancer. 

 

Edit: final note, I forgot to mention it initially, but boonshare has next to no root in the original class, that's another reason why I say necro doesn't need boonshare given it already has noteworthy and popular support and dps options. That said, don't give me that "elite specs are supposed to put new things in the class" because that's a copout, they're supposed to expand and modify the existing class to be able to do new things. not shoehorn themselves in and need people like you to justify their weird additions.

Edited August 14, 2021 by FalsePromises.6398

[ZDragon.3046]

10 hours ago, susana.7814 said:

to point one....yes losing health for more dps...that's kind of the point to high risk high reward. Shroud was a handicap that kept us from getting any active defenses or actual decent dps numbers and I for one am perfectly fine with losing health for more power. 

Which still might not be there keep in mind where reapers numbers are and and if hrabinger does not bring signifigantly better numbers than that then it is a double handicap for no good reason.

You talk about shroud keeping us from getting active defenses... WHICH BY THE WAY ARE NOT THERE WITH THESE ELIXIRS.... 

The elixirs are a bit too punishing if you ask me and the only time they wont be punishing is if you are currently holding max blight. Even then if he had nearly 40% boon duration in that video the base boons you get from those things really cant be all that good. If you want to share might you just take blood is power if you want a break stun you take wurm, spectral walk, or spectral armor, if you want a heal with some life force attached you take the minion....  or you can even just take any other heal for that matter all of them are better than the elixir in that demo showed by a mile. Sure boon necro might be cool but thats mainly depending upon the 2nd grandmaster and a single elixir or two (not good in my opinion.) It started as a dps that was described as being more of a dps than reaper currently is then out of nowhere boon support????  Where is the self utility for helping managing blight??? They just chose to go out the window with that I guess which was kinda bad the other 2 professions have lines entirely based to help their mechanics fuction while necro was just denied that and the utility does not provide defensive reactionary tools for not having the health protection.

 

Overall there is alot of good design aspect with harbinger but there is also alot of what feels like bad or perhaps rushed choices thrown in. 

 

While i agree we should wait till tuesday to see what the numbers look like on the damage front they honestly need to be grossly higher compared to reapers numbers for having 

-  no health protection

- a stacking max health debuff

- and still having no utility access while shroud is active.

 

My biggest gripe about harbinger right now is that blight on its own is ONLY negative effect and at a baseline has no positive side to it. 

Holo heat is negative if you over cap on it but also comes with baseline positives like effectively increasing your utility skills at a base level. While you can say perhaps healing at the exchange for life force is a bit of a positive at no point did cmc directly link that to blight.... it felt like it was just its own thing thrown in separately.

 

Mobility wont matter that much to be honest its 2 mobility skills or rather 1 mobility skill extra compared to the other shrouds which both have at least 1 mobility skill. So again is the double handicap worth 1 extra mobility skill??? no not really... 

The numbers need to be grossly inflated and if they are cool... ill be down to deal.... but how will everyone else feel??? NERF IT??!?!?

If the numbers are even comparable to reaper then this spec is basically trash in its current state for a dps at least and needs to have its mechanics reworked or numbers adjusted.

[Kuulpb.5412]

10 hours ago, susana.7814 said:

to point one....yes losing health for more dps...that's kind of the point to high risk high reward. Shroud was a handicap that kept us from getting any active defenses or actual decent dps numbers and I for one am perfectly fine with losing health for more power. 

Also high vitality literally does nothing. you still die just as fast. High vitality doesn't matter in the slightest.

Ummm also boon sharing IS something necro has needed for many years to be viable in most pve modes. the number one complaint is always " Necro too selfish" so this aims to remedy that. also i dont get your points about having to be in melee distance to boonshare, all boonshare classes are like that. FB, Alacren, Chrono, Druid, etc....

We also DID need mobility. that's a big deal for necro. We need active defense which we got in the form of an evade and much better cc skills. 

I don't get why everyone cares so much about fear, fear is the worst cc skill in the game. I'll take the aoe float over that any day. 

Most good condi builds rely on torment these days as well so im not sure that's really a valid complaint. 

Poison sucks as is. if it's going to be viable it needs a rework which i dont see happening just for harbinger. 

From my perspective:

1 -  Scourge ALREADY lost shroud in exchange for Damage and active defences ( barrier)

2 - High vit lets you have more base life force

3 - Scourge had Boon "giving" (not sharing) of might ( easily 25 might) as well as, Swiftness, and stability.

4 - I would say we Do want mobility,  but we do have access to a few mobility skills  thanks to scourge ( only like, one in base, which is pitiful) - as as mentioned, barrier,

5 - Fear is an important thing for necromancer,  there is an optional trait where your fear deals damage, there are 2 other Base necro traits that benefit from fear, being giving you boons, or generating life force.

6  - torment comment, I don't disagree or agree.

7- Poison does suck, yes.

8 - One major problem I have with harbinger is that  "Stability on shroud use" was moved to harbinger, but also nerfed, to not be a stun break.

- Overall,  imho, Harbinger is trying ti take what necromancer already has:
A way to not have shroud as a health bar
A Support oriented spec
A Melee Range oriented spec

And just... Copy it...
It doesn't imho look at all like what should have been added, Especially since this will 10000% just be a BoonBot for raids,  Necro has Objectively ( not an opinion,) the lowest benchmark DPS in raids, So instead of giving them damage to compete, they're making them Scourge 2.0,
Scourge  is a condition/support spec,
Harbinger is a Power/Condition/Support spec.

 

[SeTect.5918]

Tbh...people all the time talk about high risk high reward...I really dont think that this spec is going to have over 40k dps. Which means its high risk and the same reward nearly every other spec also has.

If this spec is going to have 45k dps i am fine with that sustain (lol).
But its not going to be like that.

Fractals will be unplayable with vipers and berserker equip.
11k hp with self-condition as condi and no barrier or dmg reduction.
In open world or sth u can at least run full trailblazers with 15k hp if u r lucky (lmao). At least u have access to tormenting rune then...
Both Power and Condi are having problems with this spec. I hope they add sth like:
When having over 15 stacks of blight, you are immune to the effect of blight hp loss of 10 stacks.
That would lead to more synergy with blight and less being afraid of having it.

Cal Cohen said that u have to lay on supporters and u have to deal with that.
Hows a supporter supposed to heal 1hits in fractals bc u have 0 defense.

[FalsePromises.6398]

7 hours ago, SeTect.5918 said:

Tbh...people all the time talk about high risk high reward...I really dont think that this spec is going to have over 40k dps. Which means its high risk and the same reward nearly every other spec also has.

If this spec is going to have 45k dps i am fine with that sustain (lol).
But its not going to be like that.

Fractals will be unplayable with vipers and berserker equip.
11k hp with self-condition as condi and no barrier or dmg reduction.
In open world or sth u can at least run full trailblazers with 15k hp if u r lucky (lmao). At least u have access to tormenting rune then...
Both Power and Condi are having problems with this spec. I hope they add sth like:
When having over 15 stacks of blight, you are immune to the effect of blight hp loss of 10 stacks.
That would lead to more synergy with blight and less being afraid of having it.

Cal Cohen said that u have to lay on supporters and u have to deal with that.
Hows a supporter supposed to heal 1hits in fractals bc u have 0 defense.

 

THANK YOU. I had the same thought but neglected to mention it... "have to lay on supporters"... An elite spec should not by design by dependent on others. Even druid, which depended on healing allies for its mechanic, had a pet and spirits to throw heals on to fuel itself. I HATE the idea of making a purposely handicapped elite spec that only appeals to raiders where you have healers to wipe your butt. I want something that'll be fun to use in at least open world as well, or will have some justifying mechanics that make it strong in WvW or PvP (which harbinger doesn't really appear to have). At the very least they need to halve the effect of blight and allow access to 6-0 in shroud imo if they're gonna pull this kind of scourge reaper lovechild with numerous curveball defects...

[FalsePromises.6398]

8 hours ago, ZDragon.3046 said:

Which still might not be there keep in mind where reapers numbers are and and if hrabinger does not bring signifigantly better numbers than that then it is a double handicap for no good reason.

You talk about shroud keeping us from getting active defenses... WHICH BY THE WAY ARE NOT THERE WITH THESE ELIXIRS.... 

The elixirs are a bit too punishing if you ask me and the only time they wont be punishing is if you are currently holding max blight. Even then if he had nearly 40% boon duration in that video the base boons you get from those things really cant be all that good. If you want to share might you just take blood is power if you want a break stun you take wurm, spectral walk, or spectral armor, if you want a heal with some life force attached you take the minion....  or you can even just take any other heal for that matter all of them are better than the elixir in that demo showed by a mile. Sure boon necro might be cool but thats mainly depending upon the 2nd grandmaster and a single elixir or two (not good in my opinion.) It started as a dps that was described as being more of a dps than reaper currently is then out of nowhere boon support????  Where is the self utility for helping managing blight??? They just chose to go out the window with that I guess which was kinda bad the other 2 professions have lines entirely based to help their mechanics fuction while necro was just denied that and the utility does not provide defensive reactionary tools for not having the health protection.

 

Overall there is alot of good design aspect with harbinger but there is also alot of what feels like bad or perhaps rushed choices thrown in. 

 

While i agree we should wait till tuesday to see what the numbers look like on the damage front they honestly need to be grossly higher compared to reapers numbers for having 

-  no health protection

- a stacking max health debuff

- and still having no utility access while shroud is active.

 

My biggest gripe about harbinger right now is that blight on its own is ONLY negative effect and at a baseline has no positive side to it. 

Holo heat is negative if you over cap on it but also comes with baseline positives like effectively increasing your utility skills at a base level. While you can say perhaps healing at the exchange for life force is a bit of a positive at no point did cmc directly link that to blight.... it felt like it was just its own thing thrown in separately.

 

Mobility wont matter that much to be honest its 2 mobility skills or rather 1 mobility skill extra compared to the other shrouds which both have at least 1 mobility skill. So again is the double handicap worth 1 extra mobility skill??? no not really... 

The numbers need to be grossly inflated and if they are cool... ill be down to deal.... but how will everyone else feel??? NERF IT??!?!?

If the numbers are even comparable to reaper then this spec is basically trash in its current state for a dps at least and needs to have its mechanics reworked or numbers adjusted.

 

I heavily agree with the fact that the boon support really came out of nowhere, and as is looks really weak. If we're losing shroud AND half a healthpool, that elixir heal needs to be something absolutely ridiculous like 8k, and those durations need to be WAY pumped up and maybe some bonus non-boon effects tacked on as well, like how engineer elixirs can regen all your endurance. Also ironically enough you mention the fact that they need grossly inflated dps numbers to justify itself, yet they were already talking about how they preemptively nerfed dhuumfire for harbinger in the livestream. 

Edited August 15, 2021 by FalsePromises.6398

[XECOR.2814]

My problem with it is that.

 

1. I cant use my beloved dread trait with it cuz no fear.

2. Elixir icons look boring and in terms of functionality instead of relieving pressure and giving sustain they damage you even further. Shouldv:e given more blight control mechanics here.

3. Elite gm are resident sleeper for power and condi. No one wants passive damage fields 180 radius btw, nice peel btw. Support is fine as its pve trait, prolly busted.

4. Heal skill heals less than the health it takes away. This one is the biggest meme. It shouldve removed stacks and healed much higher than normal heals as your whole shroud sustain is not present so your heal shouldve been omega life saver but idk how they came about it being less powerful than even normal necro heals which are already on low side because that was a trade off for tanky shroud.

Tldr: needs more ways of removing stacks actively instead of ticking off passively and can achieve this by adding mechanics to boring elixirs and grandmaster traits. Also need to do something about fear interaction. 

[ZDragon.3046]

On 8/14/2021 at 2:42 PM, Kuulpb.5412 said:

From my perspective:

1 -  Scourge ALREADY lost shroud in exchange for Damage and active defences ( barrier)

2 - High vit lets you have more base life force

3 - Scourge had Boon "giving" (not sharing) of might ( easily 25 might) as well as, Swiftness, and stability.

4 - I would say we Do want mobility,  but we do have access to a few mobility skills  thanks to scourge ( only like, one in base, which is pitiful) - as as mentioned, barrier,

5 - Fear is an important thing for necromancer,  there is an optional trait where your fear deals damage, there are 2 other Base necro traits that benefit from fear, being giving you boons, or generating life force.

6  - torment comment, I don't disagree or agree.

7- Poison does suck, yes.

8 - One major problem I have with harbinger is that  "Stability on shroud use" was moved to harbinger, but also nerfed, to not be a stun break.

- Overall,  imho, Harbinger is trying ti take what necromancer already has:
A way to not have shroud as a health bar
A Support oriented spec
A Melee Range oriented spec

And just... Copy it...
It doesn't imho look at all like what should have been added, Especially since this will 10000% just be a BoonBot for raids,  Necro has Objectively ( not an opinion,) the lowest benchmark DPS in raids, So instead of giving them damage to compete, they're making them Scourge 2.0,
Scourge  is a condition/support spec,
Harbinger is a Power/Condition/Support spec.

I want to reply to a few points here just for thought  not that i dont agree with some of your points. Ill try to go in the same order as you.

1- Yes scourge lost its shroud and hp protection however the biggest issue is that this new class has no barrier and no active defenses. I think that when people consider true active defenses they are looking at things like evades, blocks, invuln etc. not just hp fodder like barrier i would still consider barrier pretty soft on the active side and if anything is  closer to passive defense as it is still damage soaking rather than damage avoiding utility.

 

2- This will hardly matter as shroud uptime will be the same in the end Because life force is consumed at a fixed percentage vitality means nothing for the life force aspect of harbinger. 

With core and reaper it mattered because damage came out of that number so the bigger the number the more effective damage you could potentially soak not account for drain when shroud is up. With harbinger the health protection is not there so the number in that bar is practically meaningless. The only reason you want more vitality is so that blight when it ramps up leaves you with a bit more health than it would a base. Even so you wont see this done with power dps roles cause there is no room in stats for it. Maybe with condition you might see some.

 

3- Scourge should have just been the og boon / barrier support in the first place i basically still want that to happen to this day. Scourge is strong right now because as a "support" claiming elite it does way too much competitive dps with pure dps roles.

 

4- The mobility between harbinger and any other elite is not enough to warrant the double negative. If you really count the mobility across each elite the new harbinger only brings 1 extra mobility tool. Every other elite has at least 1 unique movement skill be it from shroud or the utility. Harbinger brings only a single extra. They also all happen to be engage only focused tools. 

 

5- I personally do not have a problem with none fear based cc. Fear has the biggest passive counter value in the game  as a cc being a condition and control effect at the same time. I actually welcome the none fear based cc that harbinger is willing to offer. Lets be real you only play the fear traits 95% of the time in a competitive setting like wvw roaming or spvp and usually on core or scourge. The while there are a few that combo with the recently reworked dread nicely for open world play you dont use them in raid settings or really even high end fractals. While I can understand peoples pain points here this is not really a problem design as plenty of other elites and builds can make use of those traits. At best they could maybe rework the 3 skill to inflict fear when your blight is over a certain level which would be nice.

 

6- I personally think its too torment heavy its almost more torment heavy than scourge with the main difference being the lack of torment damage increase trait. Feels like lazy design to me to be honest.

 

7- I personally wish poison was one of the conditions necromancer had in higher frequency and while its walled behind a trait harbinger does offer that and it may end up being one of the few saving graces in the build options for it with the risk it has for being used. 

 

8- This is a big yes. So the fact that its not a stun break effectively makes this trait pretty useless. In pve you wont take this for the stab you will take it for the ferocity bonus. In pvp if you are already stunned well this did nothing for you in most situations. People can argue preemptive activation use but thats already being stacked on top of no health protection and degenerating hp with utility that offers no active defense. 

 

You pretty much certainly have a point to how you feel overall. 

While I dont see it as exactly scourge 2.0 i can get why you might feel that way looking at the middle line of stupport triats, uncreative and poorly designed elixir options that seem like more of a bother to use with the exception of like 2 of them and those 2 will only be used when you build it for boon support.

 

CmC did say it was suppose to be more dps than reaper for all the risk but he double backed about pre-emptively nerfing things like dhuumfire and mentioned keeping an eye on boon durations and such before the class has even gone into the a public beta. This makes me think it will barely be above reaper at least on the power side and barely if not just only equal to scourge on the condition side. Most people who ive talked to about this class are holding their final thoughts till next week but mostly agree that the numbers it puts out would need to be soo overly grossed that it would be unhealthy for the game. More than likely its double handed draw backs will need to be modified or reworked and if we are lucky and it does crap in the beta it will get that.

 

Still my biggest issue is the fact that blight does nothing but drain your hp on its own. It does not empower anything at a base level. No utility skill upgrades, no weapon skill upgrades, no shroud skill upgrades, etc etc. Holo heat does exactly this without needing to even select a trait and the mark was missed here. Blight was made to be only a negative concept for the sake of doing it because its necromancer and thats thematic.... this is pretty bad design. There are not even enough traits that interact with blight for it to make sense almost like the traits were thrown in as an after thought when the realization came that blight is only pure negative effect just for the sake of being there.

Edited August 16, 2021 by ZDragon.3046

[Aizenfaust.2708]

As of now I don't see how there is a high reward for all the handicap harbinger brings. We need to see how much damage it does and if indeed it is near 45k dps then maybe it will be good.

It has no safe self cleanse (-10% hp to cleanse is a joke), i.e. we will have to take dagger off-hand to play condi build, just so we can transfer off torment from blood is power or we'll just die with -50% hp from blight.

Blight without a trait does nothing but harm.

Harbinger shroud is basically a Photon Forge from Holo, but worse. Much worse. Why can't Harbinger use utilities while in shroud when engineer can? The elixirs are just not that good for amount of hp they need. Utility elixirs should not have more than 5% hp cost on them.

I don't see myself taking any elixir in pvp for example. Necros have much better stunbreaks and cpc will be even more important now because of Virtuoso. Maybe elite, but then again "Lich goes brrr" not going anywhere.

They said they're breaking the rules, or something, but for necro it's all the same - kick yourself in the kitten to have something while others have something from nothing.

[Rym.1469]

I think Harbinger is still very much a work in progress. From icons to a few questionable traits and a bit underwhelming utilities, I see that this may be the spec that they wanted to push out in the first beta batch to get early feedback and the most time possible to make changes to it. This may be the HoT Beta #1 Revenant situation. The other two specs revealed seem to be a bit more finished, but they also don't have mechanics that flip the entire class upside down.

 

I do like the main mechanic and the idea behind it all. It's refreshing to see something that may end up being quite a high skill ceiling way to play, especially after Scourge's botched design and skill floor under the sea level. 

 

In my eyes they want to first see how punishing Blight is exactly. Then they can add additional carrots to it. There's no shortage of possible ideas in here, it is, after all, borrowing the ideas of a 55 hp monk. 

 

 

Edited August 16, 2021 by Rym.1469

[Daevhalla.7823]

12 hours ago, Rym.1469 said:

I think Harbinger is still very much a work in progress.

I truly hope so, because as mentioned in comments above, it's just too much negative with almost completely no core necro synergy.

It feels like devs just missed the mark on this one.

And it almost looks like they tried to address all community wishes for necro in one specialization (boon share, dps, mobility) and failed at it.

 

I'm actually really concerned with how this spec will play as I'm maining necro. Atm it feels too underpowered and all over the place (with melee shroud (and traits), those kitten tonics, a *range* weapon, and with the loss of fear (which I think is amazing for control)).

[Vennyhedgie.5369]

The reality is that this spec by its very design SHOULD be the highest DPS spec in the game, but people are absolutely gonna cry about its damage being too high during this beta. The amount of defense you're giving up is ridiculous compared to what you're getting... What are you even getting that's really all that powerful? Shroud 2 and 5 and maybe pistol 2, but that's it.

 

The elixirs are a massive disappointment. Not only are they mechanically boring and an immediately inferior version of engineer elixirs by virtue of not having a tossable version, considering the tradoff this spec has they shouldn't just be "good", they should be absolutely amazing. 

 

If any necro shroud should keep their utilities it should've been this one. Considering you also don't get damage reducing your life force in shroud, this would've been a perfect oportunity for Glyphs on necromancer, although it's far too late for those now since the spec icon is literaly an elixir bottle.

 

Which again brings me back to the lackluster elixirs. One of them is literaly for great justice but just for yourself, you HAVE to trait them to be AoE AND they don't have charges. And what even is the heal skill?

 

I know the beta isn't out yet and you have to try it out and yada yada, but the elixirs just have left me baffled.

 

Edit: Also WHY is a spec that's getting a ranged weapon (which you're encouraged to use), getting a choice between 3 melee pulsing AoEs for their grandmaster?  

Edited August 16, 2021 by Vennyhedgie.5369

[Smoosh.2718]

On 8/14/2021 at 7:20 PM, ZDragon.3046 said:

My biggest gripe about harbinger right now is that blight on its own is ONLY negative effect and at a baseline has no positive side to it. 

But with the trait each % of blight is 1% of damage up to 25% more damage, so ther is a positive side to blighting oneself, you do more damage.
As an example of this, picture chugging two-three elixirs (one being the elite for all boons) just before using axe 2 on someone, that is up to 60% more damage (including vuln) (35% excluding vuln) on that target.

Anyway, its too soon to cry wolf when no-one but Anet has played the class.

[Asum.4960]

3 hours ago, Smoosh.2718 said:

But with the trait each % of blight is 1% of damage up to 25% more damage, so ther is a positive side to blighting oneself, you do more damage.
As an example of this, picture chugging two-three elixirs (one being the elite for all boons) just before using axe 2 on someone, that is up to 60% more damage (including vuln) (35% excluding vuln) on that target.

Anyway, its too soon to cry wolf when no-one but Anet has played the class.

And while that does look impressive on paper at a glance, the problem is just that, even if you pop 2 Utilities and your Elite and then Axe 2, (and that Trait damage mod likely will even be lower in competitive), against for example a Soulbeast, while they press Rapid Fire, Sic'Em and Pack, my bet is on the Soulbeast still standing and the Harbinger being dead - esp since one of those is 900 Range, and the other 1500. One low health and light armor, and the other medium. And one had to sacrifice nothing of their core design and build in defenses to make that happen, the former had to give up ~80%. 

 

Yes, the damage coming out of a Harbinger could be impressive, and with the right build the resustain of it could be otherworldy, but both of those need you to be alive to be of use, and I just don't see that happening with this amount of tradeoff,  even more so considering others can do the same or more at much, much, much less cost and risk. 

 

The only way I currently see this spec working in PvP (and possibly even quite well) is as super sustainy BM Sage or Avatar Sanctuary and Blood Bank/Transfusion Hit and Run Harbinger, avoiding Elixier's and Blight at all costs and just Shroud flashing mobility, CC and Burst, while constantly healing and gaining Barrier from Blood Bank/Tranfusion and Sanctuary as well as the passive LF drain heal (possibly on top of perma protting with Corrupter's Fervor) - so people can keep complaining about Nec being "unkillable". 

 

This ultra squishy and bursty Harbinger some are imagining or raving about, I just don't see outside of a very low rank gimmick. You need active/scaling defenses for something like that, and Necro just doesn't have that in it's kit.

Edited August 17, 2021 by Asum.4960

[susana.7814]

On 8/14/2021 at 11:42 AM, Kuulpb.5412 said:

From my perspective:

1 -  Scourge ALREADY lost shroud in exchange for Damage and active defences ( barrier)

2 - High vit lets you have more base life force

3 - Scourge had Boon "giving" (not sharing) of might ( easily 25 might) as well as, Swiftness, and stability.

4 - I would say we Do want mobility,  but we do have access to a few mobility skills  thanks to scourge ( only like, one in base, which is pitiful) - as as mentioned, barrier,

5 - Fear is an important thing for necromancer,  there is an optional trait where your fear deals damage, there are 2 other Base necro traits that benefit from fear, being giving you boons, or generating life force.

6  - torment comment, I don't disagree or agree.

7- Poison does suck, yes.

8 - One major problem I have with harbinger is that  "Stability on shroud use" was moved to harbinger, but also nerfed, to not be a stun break.

- Overall,  imho, Harbinger is trying ti take what necromancer already has:
A way to not have shroud as a health bar
A Support oriented spec
A Melee Range oriented spec

And just... Copy it...
It doesn't imho look at all like what should have been added, Especially since this will 10000% just be a BoonBot for raids,  Necro has Objectively ( not an opinion,) the lowest benchmark DPS in raids, So instead of giving them damage to compete, they're making them Scourge 2.0,
Scourge  is a condition/support spec,
Harbinger is a Power/Condition/Support spec.

 

Scourge was literally trash tier for the longest time. Just cuz they are broken now doesn't mean they always have been. They were bottom of the barrel for dps for a long time. 

the scourge portal is far too short range to be useful, and flesh wurm has always been a clunky annoying skill to use. 

how is fear important exactly? What does fear do better than any other cc? also no ones running fear traits on necro. 

 

[susana.7814]

On 8/14/2021 at 11:13 AM, FalsePromises.6398 said:

 

Allow me to clarify, because I think you're both misinterpreting some points AND are unaware of some things necromancer does. First and foremost, high risk high reward is fine and all, but devolving to the healthpool of an elementalist or thief without gaining similar active defenses like numerous evades, invulns, blinds, blocks, etc. (and not just one of one category, multiple of multiple of those categories) is the problem. You get one evade in harbinger shroud. Pistol is purely offensive, you have one interrupt. Elixirs won't save you when you see a maul coming, you still only have two dodge bars but no longer have shroud nor a 20k hp pool. 

 

Vitality DOES matter. Think zerker ele vs marauder ele. It's not about damage reduction, it's about how much incoming damage you can recover from or endure long enough to counter or react to. Necromancer had a large amount of health in shroud and base healthpool that allowed it to eat many things, and on top of that it had debilitating conditions that weakened and pressured enemies in shroud, which this new shroud doesn't have (no immob, chill, reveal, etc.).

 

Furthermore, you're missing out on the further implications of harbinger shroud when you say "boonshares always stay close". It's visibly not just a boonshare build, but also has power and condi aspects. From those, you can easily see you need to be in near point blank range, whether it's the shroud buckshot, the close range float, or the pulsing area effects from the grandmasters. At least the buckshot doesn't have absurd spread, but still. 

 

If you wanted mobility on necromancer, just take sand swell and/or flesh wurm. Those two were FAR more than enough back in my days of dueling on scourge (which are no more since I quit pvp for good about half a year ago, much to my pleasure). People even complained I had TOO much mobility. Even on reaper or core you can take speed runes since necromancer has no shortage of swiftness, which gives passive movement increase that makes necromancer almost oppressively mobile at times. Necromancer wasn't in dire need of mobility unless you were unskilled or purposely building to not have it. 

 

Now, fear. People care about fear because it IS a strong control effect. It disrupts enemy positioning and simultaneously has many great benefits in the traits, such as Fear of Death (life force regen and duration bonus), Dread (quickness/fury), Shivers of Dread (chill on fear, reaper only though), or Terror (pulsing damage on fear, not too hot nowadays but still there). Fear also creates gaps between you and your enemy if you use it right, or gives you windows like any other control effect to hit hard. It may be counterable by cleanses AND stunbreaks, but it's still a vital effect for necromancer and just as effective as any other CC. 

 

Also necromancer already has a torment condi spec. My point is that it doesn't bring anything new to the table to add another one that focuses on the exact same conditions that have the exact same drawbacks. In the same way, adding another melee-radius-leaning power damage spec falls into that same reaper territory. Anyway, no condition sucks by default if you apply enough of it and/or have enough multipliers on it, so don't just hand-wave off poison as a bad condition. 

 

Lastly I don't know where you're getting this "necromancers aren't wanted anywhere in pve because they're considered too selfish" from when scourge is one of the most powerful and reliable condi dps builds around that also offers worthwhile barrier to allies, to the extent they're still nerfing its noncommittal barrier options come next Tuesday. Reapers are worthwhile for roundups with chilling grasp or for a more self reliant dps build, scourges with epidemic can excel greatly on multi target fights, healscourges are iconic supports that aren't as useful everywhere but DEFINITELY aren't useless and are integral to some raids and strikes as well as very strong in open world. Healscourge is what made me decide to commit to maining necromancer. 

 

Edit: final note, I forgot to mention it initially, but boonshare has next to no root in the original class, that's another reason why I say necro doesn't need boonshare given it already has noteworthy and popular support and dps options. That said, don't give me that "elite specs are supposed to put new things in the class" because that's a copout, they're supposed to expand and modify the existing class to be able to do new things. not shoehorn themselves in and need people like you to justify their weird additions.

im not unaware of what necromancer does. as I said before, sand swell is too short range to be of much use and flesh wurm is annoying because it has to first be placed and can also be killed. there goes your mobility if it happens. 

Also having to run runes just to get mobility is a problem. the only real access we have to swiftness is warhorn which isnt really used outside of pve much.  I guess you can use signet of the locust, but then there's a utility slot gone just for some mobility

also, you don't need to be in point blank range to dps with harbinger. pistol is 900 range, i mean it helps with dps and for dps you'll want to get close anyway on any other necro spec too. (yes even scourge, though i admit scourge can work well midrange, but then, so can harbinger.)

also how is it a copout to say elite specs should give us new things? You realize that's what every elite spec has always done. Healscourge is a support option, but it's niche and not used everywhere. I really only ever play mine if my group is constantly wiping on sloth or matthias. Boonshare is something we dont have.....unless you're counting the might from healscourge which...doesn't matter much. There's nothing wrong with getting more tools. 

Infact, if the elite specs didn't give more tools, what would be the point in even having them?

Also, yes fear DOES suck. so does poison. 

 

Edited August 17, 2021 by susana.7814

[FalsePromises.6398]

11 hours ago, susana.7814 said:

im not unaware of what necromancer does. as I said before, sand swell is too short range to be of much use and flesh wurm is annoying because it has to first be placed and can also be killed. there goes your mobility if it happens. 

Also having to run runes just to get mobility is a problem. the only real access we have to swiftness is warhorn which isnt really used outside of pve much.  I guess you can use signet of the locust, but then there's a utility slot gone just for some mobility

also, you don't need to be in point blank range to dps with harbinger. pistol is 900 range, i mean it helps with dps and for dps you'll want to get close anyway on any other necro spec too. (yes even scourge, though i admit scourge can work well midrange, but then, so can harbinger.)

also how is it a copout to say elite specs should give us new things? You realize that's what every elite spec has always done. Healscourge is a support option, but it's niche and not used everywhere. I really only ever play mine if my group is constantly wiping on sloth or matthias. Boonshare is something we dont have.....unless you're counting the might from healscourge which...doesn't matter much. There's nothing wrong with getting more tools. 

Infact, if the elite specs didn't give more tools, what would be the point in even having them?

Also, yes fear DOES suck. so does poison. 

 

 

I don't want to sound rude, but if you say flesh wurm and sand swell are bad, you're just not using them well, simple as. I said it before, I've been accused of being too OP for using those well, by players both skilled and unskilled. Sand swell isn't just one 900 range teleport, it's also a portal that can be used back and forth to bully melee builds, weave in and out of cover, or be very hard to pin into ground targeted skills. It's even usable while controlled, and can result in some absolutely cheesy aces up your sleeve if your enemy is careless. Flesh wurm doesn't always need to be premeditated, you can place it and immediately teleport to it for an ambush, or wind up a potent area attack just before teleporting to it after placing it to have your optimal positioning on your cleave/aoe. Furthermore, in the words of necromancers who were high likely better than me, necromancer doesn't need mobility out the kitten when they have debilitations to ruin that of others, be it chill, cripple, immobilize, or other. It's conditional, yes, but it's there, and it compounds with the aforementioned skills AND the other unmentioned mobility skills like death's charge, dark path, etc. in core and reaper. It's necromancer's unique style. Also, necromancer has THREE sources of swiftness (locust swarm, spectral walk, speed of shadows, the latter of those two not just being swiftness applications but also pretty noteworthy cleanses and/or stunbreaks), and you can make that FOUR if you count trail of anguish... so no, it's not just one swiftness application on warhorn, so I'm more and more inclined to believe you ARE unaware of what necromancer does. Necromancer mobility is NOT an issue, and your problem seems to be that necromancer isn't a thief or warrior with a million back and forth leaps, which you're using to justify taking away a valuable slot in your shroud that could have a strong and interesting damage skill just to pack in a second mobility skill at the expense of your offensive diversity and pressure. 

 

Also, when I'm talking about being point blank to deal damage, I'm not talking about pvp or wvw or whatever, I'm talking in a raid or minmax dps situation where you need to squeeze out as much damage as possible: tacking on more damage to melee radius area pulse damage detracts from your usual damage when you need to back up, a problem scourge can ignore completely thanks to shades and even reaper can instead opt to time those backup windows alongside their cooldowns and their charges back in with bursts, something I commonly do myself. Power harbinger is already tested and known to suck so I won't even bother with its grandmaster, but Approaching Doom pulses 3 stacks of base 5 second torment (modifiable up to 10 second duration) and weakness on nearby enemies every 3 seconds. That's a notable chunk of damage and potent debilitation you might want to actually apply on people, not to mention the 5 skill is close range radius and the 2 skill is a fan attack that, unless your enemy has a stupid huge hitbox, won't hit all of its bolts unless you're decently close. This isn't even talking about how boring the idea of just getting free uncreative bonus damage modifiers/pulses is without any interesting synergy or further implications. 

 

Lastly, it is a copout to say elite specs should just give new things haphazardly and uncreatively, ESPECIALLY things that don't synergize with the core very well or at all. Harbinger specifically doesn't synergize well with core traits in healthy or sensible ways. It shows in preemptively nerfing dhuumfire to a THIRD of its initial value, it shows in Dread, a spite grandmaster, recharging 50% of a 5 second cooldown skill on kill instead of a 10 second cooldown team barrier in scourge or a 20 second cooldown stability/fear wave in reaper or even a fear attack in core (fear attacks which then grant you quickness/fury as secondary effects), it shows in transfusion being weirdly tied to a leap now... it just doesn't click well. Elite specs are not just throwing wrenches into the machine and trying to make em fit in somehow, they're evolutions and synergies with the core. Nothing about harbinger really synergizes with the core, and it goes to lengths to in fact NO LONGER synergize with the core. THAT is the problem. Elite specializations EXPAND and MODIFY, they do not just dump new kitten onto classes and say "make it work". Even scourge's iconic and brand spankin' new (at the time) mechanic of barrier was an evolution of the shroud health. 

 

To finish up, I've already explained why fear and poison are both legitimate and valid. You've presented no argument as to why they aren't. I MYSELF have literally presented more evidence as to why either of those are weak than you have, and I did so to explain their shortcomings and how they're either justifiable or can be overcome if we're putting an elite spec's traits on the table. At this point, I almost DO want to sound rude. Please don't waste my time: make a POINT, not a runaway thought or a sentiment without evidence.