Improving Harbinger's interactions with Blight

[KinkyPotato.4219]

Adept categories. Blight should be a mechanic that enforces high-risk, high-reward for damage and support builds however, supports gain no benefit from it all. It simply becomes an overbearing handicap with no pay-off for them. Furthermore, elixirs seem incredibly limited in their current iteration and the inclusion of compounding modifiers looks uninspired and lazy. Blight should be something the necromancer goes out of their way to stack to get insane payoffs, not something that passively hinders their max HP forever (25 seconds is an insanely long time and for something as punishing as 50% reduced max HP). As others have pointed out, removing shroud health and half your health pool sums to a near 80% loss of the necromancer’s total accessible health  (credit goes to https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/99616-harbinger-violently-handicaps-itself-for-things-necromancer-already-has-or-doesnt-need/?tab=comments#comment-1431188) which is far too debilitating for a class that's supposedly encouraged to go into close range to deal damage. Similarly, the over-emphasis on Torment needs to be shifted to another condition (such as Poison) as it overlaps with the Scourge's specialty and leads to monotony. Here are some suggestions to make Blight more interesting, to spice up elixirs, and to differentiate the Harbinger from the Scourge:  

 

BASELINE

Elixirs : Vulnerability application from Vile Vials is now baseline for all elixirs. Instead of slow, elixirs now also fear for 1 second. Animation should change from drinking the elixir to smashing it on the ground.  Base radius of 240.

Elixir of Promise: Increased duration of vigor to 6 seconds. While at or above 10 blight stacks, gain protection. Instead of inflicting blight, this skill now removes all blight stacks. Healing is no longer split between game modes and will now use the higher WvW healing value in all game modes (Carrion beta gear in WvW= 4,840; Carrion beta gear in PvE = 1,923).

Elixir of Risk: Increased duration of might and fury to 12 seconds. While at or above 10 blight stacks, grant 25 stacks of might but reduce duration of might by 50%.

Elixir of Anguish: Increased duration of swiftness to 12 seconds. While at or above 10 blight stacks, apply 5 stacks of poison to nearby enemies. Cooldown is no longer split between game modes and will now use the 25 second cooldown in all game modes (currently PvE = 25 sec cd; WvW= 30 sec cd).

Elixir of Bliss: Increased duration of resolution to 6 seconds. Reduced number of conditions removed from 5 to 3. While at or above 10 blight stacks, convert 3 conditions into boons for yourself and nearby allies. Cooldown is no longer split between game modes and will now use the 25 second cooldown in all game modes (currently PvE = 25 sec cd; WvW = 40 sec cd).

Elixir of Ignorance: Increased duration of resistance to 6 seconds. While at or above 10 blight stacks, grant 5 stacks of stability for yourself and nearby allies if a stun is broken.

Elixir of Ambition: Increased duration of all boons to 6 seconds. While at or above 10 blight stacks, reduce this skill's cooldown by 1 second for each unique boon applied to yourself.

Blight: Reduced duration from 25 seconds to 12 seconds. 

Poison: All weapon and shroud skills that inflicted torment now inflict poison instead.

 

MINOR ADEPT

Alchemic Vigor: 

Current functionality - Gain increased vitality.

New functionality - Gain 1% reduced incoming strike and condition damage for each stack of blight you have.

 

MAJOR ADEPT

Wicked Corruption:

Current functionality - Deal increased strike damage for each stack of blight you have.

New functionality - Deal increased strike damage for each stack of blight you have. While at or above 10 stacks of blight, Devouring Cut will consume your stacks of poison on targets to deal additional strike damage.

 

Vile Vials: Renamed to "Alchemical Success"

Current functionality - Elixir skills gain reduced recharge and inflict vulnerability and slow to nearby enemies.

New functionality - Gain increased healing power for each stack of blight you have. While at or above 10 stacks of blight, Dark Disciple will now heal allies in a 360 radius for 50% effectiveness but at a 100% increased life force cost.

 

Septic Corruption:

Current functionality - Deal increased condition damage for each stack of blight you have. Shroud 2 skill also inflicts poison.

New functionality - Deal increased condition damage for each stack of blight you have. While at or above 10 stacks of blight, Devouring Cut leaves behind a field that pulses poison.

 

MAJOR MASTER

Implacable Foe :

Current functionality - Gain stability when entering Harbinger Shroud. Gain ferocity based on your vitality.

New functionality - Gain stability when entering Harbinger Shroud and deliver an attack in a 240 radius that immobilizes foes. While at or above 10 stacks of blight, attack radius increases to 360, always critically hits and will reduce Harbinger Shroud's cooldown after exiting by 2 seconds if an enemy is hit.

 

Twisted Medicine: Renamed to "Apothecary"

Current functionality - Elixir skills also grant their boons to nearby allies. Gain concentration based on your vitality.

New functionality - Elixir skills gain 120 increased radius and also grant their boons to nearby allies. While at or above 10 stacks of blight, elixirs will grant protection and regeneration (3 second duration).

 

Dark Gunslinger:

Current functionality - Pistol skills gain reduced recharge. Gain expertise based on your vitality.

New functionality - Pistol skills gain reduced recharge and poison now reduces heal effectiveness by 40%. While at or above 10 stacks of blight, gain Maniacal Toxicologist after exiting Harbinger Shroud. Maniacal Toxicologist causes your next three poison applications to also grant quickness.

 

MINOR GRANDMASTER

Corrupted Talent:

Current functionality - Gain 15% life force when you enter Harbinger Shroud.

New functionality - Gain 10% life force when you enter Harbinger Shroud.

 

MAJOR GRANDMASTER

Cascading Corruption:

Current functionality - Your power is increased. While in Harbinger Shroud, you gain an aura that pulses each interval to damage and cripple nearby enemies.

New functionality - While in Harbinger Shroud, you gain an aura that pulses every second to damage and cripple nearby enemies. While at or above 10 stacks of blight, aura radius increases to 360 and grants you a stacking power and ferocity buff every second (12 second duration). One additional stack is gained for each enemy hit with the aura (max 10 stacks). Gaining attribute stacks refreshes the duration of all current stacks.

 

Deathly Haste: Renamed to "Hasted Inoculation".

Current functionality - While in Harbinger Shroud, gain an aura that pulses each interval to grant quickness to yourself and nearby allies.

New functionality - While in Harbinger Shroud, gain an aura that pulses every second to grant quickness to yourself and nearby allies. While at or above 10 stacks of blight, aura radius increases to 360 and grants you a stacking concentration and outgoing healing buff every second (12 second duration). One additional stack is gained for every ally affected by the aura (max 10 stacks). Gaining attribute stacks refreshes the duration of all current stacks. 

 

Doom Approaches: 

Current functionality - Your condition damage is increased. While in Harbinger Shroud, you gain an aura that pulses each interval to torment and weaken nearby enemies.

New functionality - While in Harbinger Shroud, you gain an aura that pulses every second to poison and weaken nearby enemies. While at or above 10 stacks of blight, aura radius increases to 360 and grants you a stacking condition damage and expertise buff every second (12 second duration). One additional stack is gained for each enemy hit with the aura (max 10 stacks). Gaining attribute stacks refreshes the duration of all current stacks.

 

These changes should incentivize necromancers to actively maintain their blight stacks in order to gain powerful bonuses. These changes would also synergize greatly with their elite, Elixir of Ambition as that would set them right away at 10 stacks of blight. Once their elite is used, they could begin to work on accumulating more blight to enhance their combat capabilities. Tying in modifiers to blight stacks in the grandmaster traits as opposed to passive conversions from vitality motivates necromancers to try to aim for that coveted 25 Blight stack number. Furthermore, passive attribute bonuses on the offensive grandmaster traits have been reworked to instead be granted over time as you accumulate blight, with faster stacks being granted for tagging applicable targets with the aura. This really solidifies the harbinger's high-risk high reward playstyle by bolstering them further should they take the risk to go close. Wicked Corruption and Implacable Foe were reworked to increase Power Harbingers damage in all game modes by giving them a powerful attack when entering Harbinger Shroud (which is further amplified at the blight threshold) and providing them a unique way to work with Poison. Similarly, elixirs have been reworked to provide additional benefits and utility while at or above the blight threshold. Durations should be increased by 1 second (20%) as the elixir trait no longer reduces cooldown by 20%.

 

As a result of these boosts however, blight's duration should be reduced from 25 seconds to 12 seconds to promote its active maintenance. Elixir of Promise should remove Blight stacks to grant temporary reprieve from blight's reduced health albeit at a complete purge of offensive power. This would let you have some control over your health penalties should the situation get too hairy while also giving your enemies a chance to capitalize on your weakened capabilities. Reducing the life force gained from Corrupted Talent and the vitality granted by Alchemic Vigor would also emphasize the importance of maintaining blight.

 

With these proposals, support Harbingers would now have interactions with blight, granting them improved supportive capabilities as their health decreases. Additionally, necromancers would have access to a plethora of viable builds and synergy with various core specializations. Dread (Spite) and Terror (Curses) could be combined with Elixir fears to create a fear-based necro. Putrid Defense (Death Magic) could be combined with Poison traits to further enhance your poison damage. Blood Magic and Eternal Life (Soul Reaping) could be used with the support traits to create a well rounded support. The possibilities would be endless!

Edited August 25, 2021 by KinkyPotato.4219

[Urgot.9084]

also give The Elixieres kind of Unique passive effect for some second after drinking them.

 

Elixier of Promise: regenate healt every second (7s)

 

Elixier of risk: take 5% more damage deal 7% more Damage (7s)

 

Elixier of Anglusih : make all Boons on you 33% more effective (7s)

 

Elixier of Bliss: gain lifeforce after taking Conditions(icd1) 2% life force per condi (7s)

 

Elixier of ignorance : Damage and Condition Damage you take is reduced 20% (7s)

 

Elixier of Ambition: gain 7% Power , Tougness , feroity , Healpower , Condtion damage, Movement Speed , Size , Incoming Healing. (7s)

 

also add Superspeed for the Elite i know its no boon but it would be cool.

[CratZII.5872]

I agree there should be a inbaked bonus from blight outside having to choose a trait for it. Sonce shroud is such a centerpiece mechanic for necro you are going to end up with blight anyway. I feel this forces your trait selections. 

 

One idea would be to give blight itself a modifier for maybe damage and/or concentration increases.

 

Or at the very least make the potions and shroudskills scale additionally with blight.

[Wintermute.5408]

I also feel it needs a blight removal tool in one of elixirs. If devs want us to actively manage second resource, balancing survivability with damage output, we should have tools for said management.

[KinkyPotato.4219]

54 minutes ago, Wintermute.5408 said:

I also feel it needs a blight removal tool in one of elixirs. If devs want us to actively manage second resource, balancing survivability with damage output, we should have tools for said management.

I agree! I think Elixir of Promise would be the best spot to put this since 1) it's your heal and you will want to feel reprieved pressing it, and 2) it grants life force so you can go back to stacking blight right away in Harbinger Shroud.

Edited August 15, 2021 by KinkyPotato.4219

[KinkyPotato.4219]

5 hours ago, CratZII.5872 said:

I agree there should be a inbaked bonus from blight outside having to choose a trait for it. Sonce shroud is such a centerpiece mechanic for necro you are going to end up with blight anyway. I feel this forces your trait selections. 

 

One idea would be to give blight itself a modifier for maybe damage and/or concentration increases.

 

Or at the very least make the potions and shroudskills scale additionally with blight.

How does this force trait selection? Every single trait change I've listed interacts with blight in some way so it's entirely up to you how you want to use it.

Edited August 15, 2021 by KinkyPotato.4219

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

about blight directly... what are the ways even to gain it? bc nobody sane with drop all skills that are always good on necro builds to run full elixirs - which from my understanding would be necessary to gain a sense making blight even loaded up, right?

 

like, if i try a harbinger in Wvw, still well of suffering and well of corruption are necessary. well of darkness got for some odd reason nerfed in wvw (does no dmg there, while it wasn't really used even with more dmg, as it spreads unwanted condis that just feed scrappers)

 

would be then yet 2 elixiers lost, which is quite some dmg. the one elite elex is good, since the trait gives partywide boonload through it, if i remember that correctly.

 

i forgot the sense of the heal-elexir yet however. and also not sure if the stunbreak one will be worth running.

 

yet, we may be forced to run it, as without blight loadup, the new necro specs is kinda useless, as the dmg isn't boosted then, and it is either way squihsy as hell.  ... nearly got ear kitten when i hear the dev joking about necro specs becoming as squishy as an ele. that's so far from fun.

 

i mean freaking ele in wvw has absurd range and a 1200 range blink basically. that's more range than our kitten pistol has (not even god knows how i hate this weapon pick. i mean srsly PISTOL WHYYYYY... out of all weapons heck)

[Infusion.7149]

How about you read the wiki page or MajesticNoodle's post on reddit?

Blight is gained from Elixirs but also a stack per interval while in Harbinger Shroud.

There is very low likelihood that Harbinger will be a WVW spec by the way, as the PBAOE is in shroud only and all utilities do no damage.

As for the topic, it is way too early to suggest a whole bunch of buffs to the spec. While I don't believe it is going to be exceptionally strong as a power spec , condition looks promising. For one, you would have two condition weapons (scepter + pistol mainhand) as opposed to only one and the Harbinger Shroud's pulsing torment and up to 25% modifier for Septic Corruption which is on par with Demonic Lore.

Realistically though I believe blight will be scaled back in competitive to 1% , 1.25%, or 1.5% per stack (such that instead of losing 50% health you lose 25 , 31.25 , or 37.5%) if the stack cap is remaining at 25.

Edited August 15, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[KinkyPotato.4219]

1 hour ago, Infusion.7149 said:

As for the topic, it is way too early to suggest a whole bunch of buffs to the spec. While I don't believe it is going to be exceptionally strong as a power spec , condition looks promising. For one, you would have two condition weapons (scepter + pistol mainhand) as opposed to only one and the Harbinger Shroud's pulsing torment and up to 25% modifier for Septic Corruption which is on par with Demonic Lore.

I'm not seeing anything from its initial iteration that would make me want to spec into this at all. It does not look competitive in any way, especially given the heavy nerf to survivability. Why would a condition spec want to lose health, range, shades, Demonic Lore and barrier for a measly 25% buff to condition damage? I guess we'll see how it plays out but I can only really see Harbingers being viable in high end raiding since it is far too dependent on others for sustain.

 

1 hour ago, Infusion.7149 said:

There is very low likelihood that Harbinger will be a WVW spec by the way, as the PBAOE is in shroud only and all utilities do no damage.

We should at least strive to achieve its use in all three game modes. This is why mode-specific balancing exists! 

 

Also, we don't need to wait to magnify the glaring issues with this spec's support capabilities. Aside from having the potential to grant perma quickness, this spec offers nothing else in terms of boons aside from a huge limited power spike with the elite. For being advertised as the boon spec of the necro, it does an awful job at it. Not only that, it gains absolutely nothing from the handicap of blight! That just feels mechanically awful. If we're trying to diversify support specs, they need to be viable alternatives to what we currently have in the game. There is no way I see this spec being chosen over our other quickness specs in game (Firebrand, Chronomancer, Scrapper).

Edited August 15, 2021 by KinkyPotato.4219

[Infusion.7149]

28 minutes ago, KinkyPotato.4219 said:

I'm not seeing anything from its initial iteration that would make me want to spec into this at all. It does not look competitive in any way, especially given the heavy nerf to survivability. Why would a condition spec want to lose health, range, shades, Demonic Lore and barrier for a measly 25% buff to condition damage? I guess we'll see how it plays out but I can only really see Harbingers being viable in high end raiding.

 

We should at least strive to achieve its use in all three game modes. This is why mode-specific balancing exists! 

 

Also, we don't need to wait to magnify the glaring issues with this spec's support capabilities. Aside from having the potential to grant perma quickness, this spec offers nothing else in terms of boons aside from a huge limited power spike with the elite. For being advertised as the boon spec of the necro, it does an awful job at it. Not only that, it gains absolutely nothing from the handicap of blight! That just feels mechanically awful. If we're trying to diversify support specs, they need to be viable alternatives to what we currently have in the game. There is no way I see this spec being chosen over our other quickness specs in game (Firebrand, Chronomancer, Scrapper).

In raiding (does not have to be high end raiding) if you have a tank the survivability is relatively meaningless as people play weaver , daredevil, or dragonhunter there as well. For the longest time reaper was a meme ~28K spec up until about last year when it hit 34K. Don't forget harbinger has +360 vitality as a minor trait and the condition pulse torment trait also pulses weakness (which is damage mitigation). Even for strike missions many mechanics are based off your max health meaning blight is meaningless there as well.

Harbinger Shroud will be superior to Reaper Shroud and Death Shroud at least for condition builds for the simple fact that you can be healed while in it.

Another difference is Demonic Lore only affects torment. ~38% of condition scourge damage is torment right now and less than 15% is from burning. ~33% of the current scourge damage is bleeding meaning if the condition output is similar (it should be since bleeding comes from Blood is Power and scepter skills) then that's roughly a third of damage that would be boosted by the blight interaction. Most of the harbinger skills do torment as well, which is exceptionally strong against stationary enemies (the only exception would probably be Twin Largos raid). Scourge will still be stronger support-wise but does not grant quickness.

Power quickness scrapper also pretty much only provides quickness to the subgroup, so I don't understand the need to give a whole bunch of boons to harbinger unless the damage is poor. StM chrono isn't able to apply appreciable might or fury to others at all.

If for example this does 40-42K as full DPS and ~35-37K while providing quickness, you don't think people will play it? That's essentially the condi renegade situation where even before the torment buff (~33K condi RR and ~37-38K full cDPS) people still ran it.

Does the spec need more payoffs for blight besides the traits? Probably. I wouldn't rush to that conclusion before testing it though.
 

Edited August 15, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[KinkyPotato.4219]

11 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Does the spec need more payoffs for blight besides the traits? Probably. I wouldn't rush to that conclusion before testing it though.

Sounds reasonable and thank you for your explanation regarding PvE. I am mainly a WvW player so again, I can see it being used in raids but I cannot see it being seriously chosen in the other game modes. I will still try it out once Tuesday comes but at the moment, it looks unplayable.

[Infusion.7149]

1 minute ago, KinkyPotato.4219 said:

Sounds reasonable and thank you for your explanation regarding PvE. I am mainly a WvW player so again, I can see it being used in raids but I cannot see it being seriously chosen in the other game modes. I will still try it out once Tuesday comes but at the moment, it looks unplayable.

I am mainly a WVW player as well but this is clearly not a WVW spec.
Mechanically none of it is applicable to WVW because it's mostly conditions (in PBAOE no less) on this spec and torment is more or less garbage now in a superspeed meta. The power portion of it is going to be severely hampered because you don't have greatsword on Harbinger so you would need to use Harbinger Shroud + mainhand axe for power damage along with focus offhand or warhorn.

 

[KinkyPotato.4219]

7 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

I am mainly a WVW player as well but this is clearly not a WVW spec.
Mechanically none of it is applicable to WVW because it's mostly conditions (in PBAOE no less) on this spec and torment is more or less garbage now in a superspeed meta. The power portion of it is going to be severely hampered because you don't have greatsword on Harbinger so you would need to use Harbinger Shroud + mainhand axe for power damage along with focus offhand or warhorn.

 

It is pretty unfortunate tbh. It's why I added the immobilize on the elixir traits in the Master tier so that 1) condition specs can up their torment damage, and 2) power specs can continue to pommel their targets. It's bad enough that they're losing their main defensive tool and HP, they should at least be rewarded properly for going into PBAoE range.

Edited August 15, 2021 by KinkyPotato.4219

[CratZII.5872]

On 8/15/2021 at 4:53 PM, KinkyPotato.4219 said:

How does this force trait selection? Every single trait change I've listed interacts with blight in some way so it's entirely up to you how you want to use it.

I was referring to the traits anet showed us

[KinkyPotato.4219]

21 hours ago, CratZII.5872 said:

I was referring to the traits anet showed us

Ah gotcha 🙂

[trixantea.1230]

Instead of making Blight a 25 debuff stacks of 1% damage, they could have simplified the number and made it into 5 stacks of 5%.
 

Utility and healing elixirs give 1 stack of 5%

Elite gives 2 stacks of 5%.

Shroud gives you 1 stack of 5% once every 3 seconds.

Edited August 18, 2021 by trixantea.1230

[RyuDragnier.9476]

On 8/15/2021 at 9:32 AM, KinkyPotato.4219 said:

I agree! I think Elixir of Promise would be the best spot to put this since 1) it's your heal and you will want to feel reprieved pressing it, and 2) it grants life force so you can go back to stacking blight right away in Harbinger Shroud.

Not to mention said Elixir is the worst heal in Necro's kit atm, you wouldn't take it over Well of Power or Consume Conditions. But change it so it heals you more for each Blight stack devoured, and it can become rather powerful.

[KinkyPotato.4219]

15 hours ago, RyuDragnier.9476 said:

Not to mention said Elixir is the worst heal in Necro's kit atm, you wouldn't take it over Well of Power or Consume Conditions. But change it so it heals you more for each Blight stack devoured, and it can become rather powerful.

If it was changed to remove all blight stacks, it'd already be pretty powerful since you're gaining all that health back that you banked. It'd definitely have the highest health return and give it a different identity to the other necro heals.

So after playing around with the harbinger in the beta for 6 hours in wvw, I've made some edits to my initial post. The grandmaster traits though feel downright awful with their small pulsing aoes so these definitely need to be changed. Elixirs are also uninspired like many have already pointed out. 

[Infusion.7149]

18 hours ago, trixantea.1230 said:

Instead of making Blight a 25 debuff stacks of 1% damage, they could have simplified the number and made it into 5 stacks of 5%.
 

Utility and healing elixirs give 1 stack of 5%

Elite gives 2 stacks of 5%.

Shroud gives you 1 stack of 5% once every 3 seconds.

There could just be a payoff on Elixirs relative to Blight , it doesn't need to be 5% per stack. Maybe have it act similar to heat on holo or burst skills on core warrior.

Currently Elixirs are rather boring. Even the quickness elixir is sort of bland unless you can share the quickness. Without quickness share in shroud though, the elite elixir would need a massive cooldown reduction or duration increase to warrant an elixir share build.

[KinkyPotato.4219]

8 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Currently Elixirs are rather boring. Even the quickness elixir is sort of bland unless you can share the quickness. Without quickness share in shroud though, the elite elixir would need a massive cooldown reduction or duration increase to warrant an elixir share build.

Got any ideas to make them more interesting? I haven't played holosmith but looking at their skills right now and stuff like that would be awesome for blight. I also agree that their boon capabilities are downright awful. Aside from a very short lived power spike in the elite, they have nothing else going for them.

[Infusion.7149]

Well for starters all have 25s base cooldown so even with alacrity and the 20% reduction from Vial Vials you need 8s base boon duration to upkeep any boons provided with 100% boon duration. These have 10s base durations.

The pulsed quickness in shroud from Deathly Haste is 2s with 3s interval so any boon duration far over 50% is probably excessive if you can cover the gaps in quickness using elixir of anguish and elixir of ambition.

Elixir of Promise
Unless you're just using this to build blight it is horrendous. Needs to be way more heal.

Elixir of Risk
Fury should be ditched completely as any necromancer power build is going to have fury or Death Perception (33% crit chance) anyway. Elixir of Risk feels like a bad version of Blood  is Power or Desiccate. Instead of the fury to make it thematic I would make it double the might (20 stacks) with half duration if you have 25 blight. This means even though you generally can't upkeep the might it could be used for burst windows in PVE and in WVW/PVP if it becomes viable. For power builds running Spite, high might stacking in a short window is more useful than low amounts of might due to Spite's Reaper's Might and Siphoned Power trait.
Also blight in general is at odds with the idea of a power build, having to build up blight means it is not as conducive to a power burst. Couple this with generally mediocre or low power coefficients on all necromancer weapons outside Greatsword and it means power harbinger is unlikely to be good.

Elixir of Anguish
Elixir of Anguish applies quickness and swiftness. Swiftness is not interesting at all and there's nothing to do with "anguish"...
The quickness duration is a mere 5s base duration meaning you need to have quickness sharing on shroud for it to be worth using. This could apply one pulse of stacked PBAOE torment around you if you at 12+ blight for example : the likely build for a quickness share Harbinger is going to be some kind of torment build and since torment is not as strong in PVP/WVW the split would be minor. Torment and anguish are more or less synonyms outside the context of this game.

Elixir of Bliss
Elixir of Bliss converts conditions to life force and applies resolution. Therefore it's meant for competitive because generally speaking in PVE you would be better off with something akin to Spectral Walk (which also breaks stun) since 5 conditions at once removed is not common. In addition because it takes a utility slot it has to do something outside condi cleanse. If you're running pistol + dagger for example there's very little reason to take this. I don't have an idea for this right now, but this is defensive in nature so it will likely not see play regardless outside of competitive (depending on cooldown). Maybe if you have 10 blight it instantly recharges Harbinger Shroud (therefore it would be a cooldown reduction for Harbinger Shroud if you are cycling shroud). That would make it function similar to a skill that instantly recharges virtues, burst skills, overload air on fresh air tempest, deadeye marks, or shatters/distortion on mesmers.

Elixir of Ignorance
It's a stunbreak that gives you resistance. In PVE it is extremely unlikely to be taken. You're more likely to need stunbreaks against power builds such as holosmith , daredevils, dragonhunters, or spellbreakers which means resistance only helps with CC conditions. It should really have some protection or stability, since it does apply blight on yourself after all. Even if the protection is short duration and conditional on blight stacks it would help it be more usable. I'm not sure anyone would take this over flesh wurm,  spectral armor, or spectral walk. Giving it conditional stability (if a stun is broken for example) would be akin to Trail of Anguish ; considering scourge is far more robust I don't think that would be broken. If stability is not given, at least vigor would help versus power type builds that need to burst (you would get extra dodges). In PVE the vigor would allow for more ambushes on mirages, more heals on healbrands running honor traitline, more DPS on warriors of all kinds running strength, and better DPS on any renegades that used their dodge because renegades lose 33% crit chance on dodge. The caveat here is vigor is already applied by Elixir of Promise.
 

Elixir of Ambition

It's 25 might and every other boon on a short duration of 5s. Think of it as detonate plasma on thieves but with 60s cooldown (steal is only 30s cooldown untraited). As you need to trait elixir sharing for it to be truly good I think less cooldown would go a long way. There isn't a payoff for blight but it's strong enough that it probably doesn't need one.

---

An alternative to all this is they could just be flip skills usable while in shroud similar to how Celestial avatar changes glyphs.

Edited August 18, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[KinkyPotato.4219]

1 hour ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Well for starters all have 25s base cooldown so even with alacrity and the 20% reduction from Vial Vials you need 8s base boon duration to upkeep any boons provided with 100% boon duration. These have 10s base durations.

Took a first stab at it, lemme know what you think. BTW, elixirs do not all have 25 second base cooldown as there is some disparity in WvW (I have not tested PvP but I'm certain they take the WvW values). Differences listed below:

1. Elixir of Promise has a much higher base heal value in competitive game modes
2. Elixir of Anguish has a 25 second cd in PvE but 30 second cd in competitive. Quickness is 5 seconds in PvE, 4 seconds in competitive
3. Elixir of Ignorance has a 25 second cd in PvE but 30 second cd in competitive
4. Elixir of Bliss has a 25 second cd in PvE but 40 second cd in competitive
5. Elixir of Risk had no differences
6. Elixir of Ambition has a 60 second cd in PvE but 75 second cd in competitve

Edited August 18, 2021 by KinkyPotato.4219

[Infusion.7149]

I do have to question the wisdom of adding more damage onto harbinger outside elixirs though. People are benching 45K on condi variants and ~33K condi quickness variants. The cooldown and uptime of non-stunbreak elixirs is more relevant for PVE than competitive. In competitive you probably want wells for WvW and stunbreaks (wurm/spectral armor/spectral walk) in PVP.

As such this part is probably way too much:
 

Quote

 

Doom Approaches: 

Current functionality - While in Harbinger Shroud, you gain an aura that pulses each interval to torment and weaken nearby enemies.

New functionality - While in Harbinger Shroud, you gain an aura that pulses every second to torment and weaken nearby enemies. While at or above 10 stacks of blight, aura radius increases to 360 and Harbinger Shroud will grant a stacking condition damage and expertise buff.

 

I don't think elixirs need strike damage or immob. They're obviously for boon support rather than straight up healing. Likewise adding healing power onto traits when Blood Magic is all about heal support and resurrection more or less is mixing a lot of traitlines into the spec so I would probably leave regen out. If you want to buff elixirs buff elixirs. Dark Gunslinger for example already does more than one thing.

Blight has some influence on Cascading Corruption and Doom Approaches because your typical use case would be condi Septic Corruption + Dark Gunslinger + Doom Approaches (3-3-3) or the much weaker power variant with Wicked Corruption + Implacable Foe + Cascading Corruption (1-1-1). Condi quickness harbinger is slated to run Septic Corruption + Twisted Medicine + Deathly Haste (3-2-2) , so blight improves the condition damage via Septic Corruption.

 

Unless the strike damage is on par with Well of Darkness and/or Well of Suffering or in terms of sustained DPS , Signet of Spite, it is highly unlikely someone would run an Elixir on a pDPS.

I think Cascading Corruption's damage is a bit low but unless it does broken damage while afk in shroud it can't make up for poor pistol power coefficients (especially outside PVE) and the lack of Greatsword. Using elixirs before going into shroud is a bit similar to holosmith pre-heat.

Edited August 18, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[KinkyPotato.4219]

2 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

I do have to question the wisdom of adding more damage onto harbinger outside elixirs though. People are benching 45K on condi variants and ~33K condi quickness variants. The cooldown and uptime of non-stunbreak elixirs is more relevant for PVE than competitive. In competitive you probably want wells for WvW and stunbreaks (wurm/spectral armor/spectral walk) in PVP.

No need to question anyone's wisdom, we are simply discussing theoretical ways to add flavor and identity to this spec. I haven't had the chance to read through the entire forum so I had no idea that the PvE benchmark was already so high. I disagree with your statement about wanting certain utilities for WvW and PvP though - the game ultimately boils down to builds and how people want to play. While wells and stunbreaks are the popular choices already, that shouldn't stop us from trying to include variety. That's like saying a Tempest's shouts are no good because most elementalists want to use cantrips for survivability. 

 

2 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

I don't think elixirs need strike damage or immob. They're obviously for boon support rather than straight up healing. Likewise adding healing power onto traits when Blood Magic is all about heal support and resurrection more or less is mixing a lot of traitlines into the spec so I would probably leave regen out. If you want to buff elixirs buff elixirs.

Yes, I already had another idea for the Master traits that I am going to add now. It should help to add some damage to the power build while adding uniqueness to the condition spec. I don't agree with your statement about having one trait line dedicated to healing - we have Water/Tempest for Elementalists and Salvation/Herald for Revenants. Why should we leave regen out? Blood Magic has no reliable access to Regeneration (aside from Mark of Evasion) and this spec is not a dedicated healer - the emphasis is still definitely on boons. You will want to spec into Blood Magic if you want further sustain.

 

2 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Blight has some influence on Cascading Corruption and Doom Approaches because your typical use case would be condi Septic Corruption + Dark Gunslinger + Doom Approaches (3-3-3) or the much weaker power variant with Wicked Corruption + Implacable Foe + Cascading Corruption (1-1-1). Condi quickness harbinger is slated to run Septic Corruption + Twisted Medicine + Deathly Haste (3-2-2) , so blight improves the condition damage via Septic Corruption.

I believe you misunderstood that I downright removed the passive bonuses from the Master and Grandmaster traits and baked them into Blight stacking at the Grandmaster level. Dark Gunslinger's expertise (13% vitality converted to expertise) and Doom Approaches' condition damage (+180 flat condition damage) were tacked onto blight so this wouldn't necessarily be increased damage. The same applies for Implacable Foe and Cascading Corruption. If anything, the values could be set to something so that the passive benefits granted right now would be equivalent to a 25 blight stack.

Edited August 19, 2021 by KinkyPotato.4219

[Infusion.7149]

Ah okay I see , you changed all master tier to be elixirs. Blood magic has regen via dodging and the skills apply regen-like effects via vampiric presence and vampiric if you go full DPS on blood except for transfusion.

You can't really compare harbinger to other classes though for healing purposes. Ventari revenant is not that relevant after soulcleave nerfs and you need to run salvation to be a real heal renegade as opposed to alac ren, I think the places people really ask for it is on CA CM (Wing6) and Adina (Wing7).

In PVE tempest shouts are taken but generally the only one people really use in WVW is aftershock. The reason is it has a reflect, immob, and protection so it serves multiple uses. The PVP version does not use shouts at all. Tempest traitline only has the heal on auras.

 

I suspect harbinger is meant as an offensive support (similar to StM chrono ,. CQB, or power quickness scrapper) not a defensive one, which is why adding conditional healing isn't going to help. Because necromancers can apply might easily unlike StM Chrono/power quickness scrapper/heal quickness scrapper it's best kept as an offensive support. cQB isn't able to supply as much might as HB , you are relying on scepter (4 stacks) and mantra of potence (5 stacks per proc) more or less. Just like HB must run honor for proper healing, renegade uses salvation, tempest runs water, spellbreaker runs tactics, scrapper drops 2 traitlines for alchemy and inventions, druid that wants boon support runs nature magic, chrono meme heal runs inspiration : if someone wants to run a heal support they should be using blood magic.