About healing coeficients... — Guild Wars 2 Forums
Home Professions Revenant

About healing coeficients...

Buran.3796Buran.3796 Member ✭✭✭✭

Ok, I've been busy looking at the healing coeficients of the Guardian (specifically: Firebrand) and out of curiosity I took a look over non-healer Revenants (i.e.: bunker builds not based on Ventari). Seems that Jalis, Glint and Mallyx provide the most for that kind of build, specially Jalis; so I took a look over the essential tools in terms of heal recovery:

  • Out of the box Vengeful Hammers to heal 53 units x second, and Steadfast Rejuvenation heals 67 units x second x energy unit of upkeed cost. So with 0 healing power a Rev using Vengeful Hammers + SR heals (6x67 + 53) = 455 x second. A Revenant in full ascended cleric gear and rune of the Flock (+1556 total healing power) increases the Vengeful Hammers basic healing from 53 to 59 x second (+11,3%), and the Steadfast Rejuvenation from 67 to 83 x energy unit x second (+23,8%) for a total of (6x83 + 59) = 557 x second (+22,4%). So going from 0 to 1556 healing power increases that synergy in less than 1/4 or 102 healing points x second.
  • Also out of the box Elevated Compassion goes from 389 healing x boon (but with an internal cooldown of 3 seconds, and I don't known if that includes us) to 661 healing x boon with 1556 healing power (+69,9%), but this trait seems weaker based on those icd limits.

    So, based on that, seems that healing power is pretty much a useless stat for tanky Revs? The base values of those traits seems fair, and diverting so many atribute points on helaing power doesn't show much impact, at least on paper. I'm missing something? Can I ditch entirely healing power for this class while theorycrafting?

Comments

  • JusticeRetroHunter.7684JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 13, 2020

    If you are running a selfish tank build, healing modifiers aren’t useful for you because they don’t effect your own personal healing.

    If you are running something group support then the following applies to you:

    Healing in general is based on the coefficient and the base healing. The equation that governs it is interwoven, so in order to determine whether healing power is better or worse than healing modifiers is concluded on a case by case basis.

    You can boil it down into one single value which is healing amplitude. The higher this healing amplitude in general means healing mods gain more value. Conversely, the lower the amplitude the more healing power wins out over healing modifiers.

    So if you have an ability that has a base of 0 and a heal scaling of 2.0, and you have 1000 healing power, the heal will heal for 2000. If you are to use a 10%modifier, this means that you need an equivalent of 100 healing power in order for healing power to win out over the modifier.

    If the heal scaling was 10.0, then with 1000 healing power you will heal for 10,000. A 10% modifier in this case would heal you for an additional 1000 and again you would need an extra 100 healing power in order for the % modifier to lose out to healing power.

    In other words, the higher the amplitude of healing, the more powerful healing modifiers become.

    In another scenario, if you have a base heal of 2000 and a heal scaling of 0, and then you add a 10% modifier, you would need an infinite amount of healing power to overtake the modifier.

    The larger the amplitude is, the more heal scaling and base heal will be present in the skill since their values are pretty much interwoven. So if you have a skill that would heal you for 20,000, it means it probably has both a high base and a high heal scaling, and because of the high amplitude, healing modifiers benefit you more as well. If you have a skill that heals for 100, the base heal and heal scaling are probably both low, and healing modifiers benefit you less. Since all three values are so interwoven, to determine which is better must be figured out on a case by case basis.

    Most of the heal scaling I’ve come across on Revenant is very low, and so the amount of healing power needed to win out over these low amplitude heals means i would need a large investment of healing power before the modifiers lose out...so in a general sense can almost always go into healing modifiers first and then Boost your healing power once you’ve maxed out in mods....but again you should calculate it on a case by case basis.

    Edit: I actually misrepresented your question. So short TLDR, is that healing power scaling vs base heal is the only two things you need to worry about. Frankly I wouldn’t bother with healing power, I would go straight into toughness and Vitality. Unless your main source of passive sustain has high heal scaling, only then would I consider healing power.

  • Buran.3796Buran.3796 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I see. In the Firebrand after the latest nerfs sustain depends a lot of the Honor traitline and the heals provided by evades and blocking aegis while casting the healing mantras; the base value of the healing in those aegis is 645, and each point in power healing increases the value healed in 0.5 (so 1000 healing power as the Mender's amuelt in PvP increases the healing to 1145, and Sage's 500 healing power to 895). That coeficient changes based on the skill, but since most of the heals (#6) for that class have long cooldowns and do require specific trait lines to work well most of the Firebrands do need to take Mantra of Solace and Mender or Sage if they want sustain.

    I've played bunker variants of Rev either based on Carrion or Paladin amulets in PvP, and I was wondering if Sage would make any difference, but seems that in this class is mostly wasted. Thanx for the detailed response.

  • RabbitUp.8294RabbitUp.8294 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 14, 2020

    Most of Rev's selfish healing scales poorly. On the other hand, their group heal scales nicely and on top of that, Rev can stack some 100%+ outgoing healing.
    So yes, for a sustain tank build, healing power is mostly wasted.

    Though, for what it's worth, regen actually scales very well with heal power, and herald can get a 20% modifier for it (and Dwayna runes for another 20%). Basically with Elder's Respite, you are healed by 15% of your heal power per second while you have regen.

  • Buran.3796Buran.3796 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RabbitUp.8294 said:

    Though, for what it's worth, regen actually scales very well with heal power, and herald can get a 20% modifier for it (and Dwayna runes for another 20%). Basically with Elder's Respite, you are healed by 15% of your heal power per second while you have regen.

    ...In PvE, but if the Build Editor figures are accurate, in WvW and PvP those numbers are way lower. I also made a mistake with the Firebrand stats: a patch in the second week of March slashed the aegis base heals to 199 in PvP, not sure if the editor adjusted that scale. But yeah, no one seems to run a sage or mender amulet with Revenant in PvP, so I guess doesn't provide much advantage.

  • RabbitUp.8294RabbitUp.8294 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 14, 2020

    @Buran.3796 said:

    @RabbitUp.8294 said:

    Though, for what it's worth, regen actually scales very well with heal power, and herald can get a 20% modifier for it (and Dwayna runes for another 20%). Basically with Elder's Respite, you are healed by 15% of your heal power per second while you have regen.

    ...In PvE, but if the Build Editor figures are accurate, in WvW and PvP those numbers are way lower. I also made a mistake with the Firebrand stats: a patch in the second week of March slashed the aegis base heals to 199 in PvP, not sure if the editor adjusted that scale. But yeah, no one seems to run a sage or mender amulet with Revenant in PvP, so I guess doesn't provide much advantage.

    Both regen and Elder's Respite are the same between game modes, only difference is the duration of Respite's passive proc. Gw2skills, like in-game tooltips, show the total heal value over the whole duration of the boon. You should always divide that number with the duration to calculate heal per second.

  • JusticeRetroHunter.7684JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 15, 2020

    To be clear on regeneration, it scales very poorly with healing power and it’s base heal is quite low.

    Elders and Dwayna runes will boost the base number by 40%, which is basically an extra 70 healing.

    To get more out of regen you need to get the amplitude higher, so if you have 2000 healing power, regeneration would heal for about 380, with a 40% boost it gives you an extra 180 healing to get it up to 600.

    If you want to invest in regeneration, you need to get that amplitude higher to make use of those traits and runes.

    The way I see it is like this. If you have a passive healing ability that heals you for 100 per second, you will have to wait 10 seconds to recoup 1000 health. If you invest into these passives to push it up to 500, you only need to wait 2 seconds to recoup that health.

    So the questions you should ask are, how much damage do you want to take and how fast can you recoup that damage. If all your abilities add up to 3k per second, then you just have to wait 1 second to recoup 3k damage. How much investment is needed to meet your goal so to speak

  • Wow. So this is the reason why I'm having such a hard time building for a sustain/bruiser style for WvW. I knew the current coefficients were pretty bad but never thought to look at other professions' numbers. (Battle Scars healing coefficient is an embarrassing 0.003 in PvP. Wow!)

    I got tired of the meta builds and started theorycrafting and thought maybe Crusader gear would work well with a Retribution Herald because of the damage reduction and the regen from hammers and Steadfast Rejuvenation would allow me to tank some condi damage straight up without using cleanses. Turns out, it doesn't really do that and then my damage suffers somewhat too.

    Is there a reason Rev's self healing coefficients are so low? The numbers currently in place actually punish you for taking healing power without using Ventari and Salvation specializations. It really prohibits build diversity because of just numbers.

    Follow up thoughts: maybe all professions self sustain outside of their primary heal should be reduced? I'm talking about traits like Rapid Flow and Shining Aspects where they give heal on energy use and barriers like Weaver and Holo; maybe all of these types of traits and abilities across the board need nerfing? Everyone is mainly running Beserker's Amulet for sPvPif they are power as it's max damage and lots of professions already have really good sustain without even needing to talent into healing/vitality/toughness. This might be where to start.

  • Buran.3796Buran.3796 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 16, 2020

    ^ Some thoughts:

    I''ve played 236 ranked matches in Season 20 PvP, so far waaay more than any other before (never past over 160 and in most of them I sit around 90, just enough to get the rewards of the first byzantium chest). I played that much beacuse I wanted to test the new 5 vs 5 meta and to secure the achievent for the PvP amulet (which I got at 109 victories, wierdly). Iwon 122 of those 236 matches and sit now around 1350 (gold 2), my best was ~1350. I've played in this season condi Herald, bunker Renegade, 3 different Firebrand builds but most of those matches were made played with power Rev, using the build discussed by Vallun a few weeks ago:

    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PmwAwyZlxQKMPyi1RXMOCjRSiMCqgpsVezE-zZIPlMFC9KCyXCkwCQgDA

    Is fantastic. Feels as the most tanky power build I run (mostly due the February changes) but also because I learned to properly rotate the evades, blocks, cc, heals and and protection seing him to properly use the build (was not enough to reach plat but that's my fault. Feels really, really durable, aside from fights vs thieves, because stealth + steal + stun/daze & repeat is just too much, but hey, thieves are terribad at teamfights, and we shine at those.

    You can go tanky and condi; it means running Carrion amulet and either Glint + Mallyx (excellent sustain) with huge AoE condition pressure, but that build (which is probably the best solo PvE in the game) won't last against some hard counters as the Spellbreaker.

    http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?PmABkel7lpQIMLKidRSMMCiJSgsCSgj7SdrD-zZoOleFBRLBaXIkwCwfDA

    You can also run condi Renegade, with our without Kalla; but that one requires more team support because losing Glint means losing a lot of sustain and the short bow is terribad at close range (and you will be pressured, a lot). Condi core can also work well: Jalis + Mallyx, but lacks mobility. I also tried with Paladin amulet +Glint & Jalis and is tough as nails: Jalis damage reduction tools are strong in this meta of numbed damage, and the team stability to secure finishers feels fantastic. The problem is that with tanky condi bunkers based on carrion and mace + axe or shortbow you have both sustain AND heavy AoE damage, but your'e vulnerable to cc, whereas physical damage bunkers based on Jalis are durable and strong against cc but don't do damage. Their pressure is lacking in 1 v1 and just garbage in teamfights, because neither swords or staf work outside berserker amulet. That build (paladin + Jalis & something) works very well in a team with a Firebrand (you stack stability, protection, weaknes, vulnerability and cc and they stack even more cc, aegis, heals and much more AoE damage. But most of the time, playing alone, your team isn't aware of how this works, so if the FB makes a tandem with you the results are great, if not just doesn't work.

    So paladin, retribution and Jalis work pretty well preventing damage, is just that they lack the push of damage to be a real bruiser (and now paladin amulets were also nerfed in stats due other classes). But outside conformed teams in AT, the current best Revenant build is power Herald with the berserker amuylet and traits in that previous link.

    By the way, works also very well in PvE: I soloed almost every Hero Point in HoT this week with that build, is a breaking defiance bar machine which can toast most of those champions in a few minutes with either minimal damage taken or just recovered in a blink.

  • RabbitUp.8294RabbitUp.8294 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jaykay.9641 said:
    Wow. So this is the reason why I'm having such a hard time building for a sustain/bruiser style for WvW. I knew the current coefficients were pretty bad but never thought to look at other professions' numbers. (Battle Scars healing coefficient is an embarrassing 0.003 in PvP. Wow!)

    I got tired of the meta builds and started theorycrafting and thought maybe Crusader gear would work well with a Retribution Herald because of the damage reduction and the regen from hammers and Steadfast Rejuvenation would allow me to tank some condi damage straight up without using cleanses. Turns out, it doesn't really do that and then my damage suffers somewhat too.

    Is there a reason Rev's self healing coefficients are so low? The numbers currently in place actually punish you for taking healing power without using Ventari and Salvation specializations. It really prohibits build diversity because of just numbers.

    Follow up thoughts: maybe all professions self sustain outside of their primary heal should be reduced? I'm talking about traits like Rapid Flow and Shining Aspects where they give heal on energy use and barriers like Weaver and Holo; maybe all of these types of traits and abilities across the board need nerfing? Everyone is mainly running Beserker's Amulet for sPvPif they are power as it's max damage and lots of professions already have really good sustain without even needing to talent into healing/vitality/toughness. This might be where to start.

    Healing Power is not meant to be a selfish stat, you build it to heal others. The reason why selfish heals have low coefficient is both because they are balanced around their base values, so those don't traits don't feel useless when you don't invest in healing power neither unkillable builds when you, and also because when you make a healer, they don't want you to both heal allies and be extra tanky yourself.

  • @RabbitUp.8294 said:
    Healing Power is not meant to be a selfish stat, you build it to heal others. The reason why selfish heals have low coefficient is both because they are balanced around their base values, so those don't traits don't feel useless when you don't invest in healing power neither unkillable builds when you, and also because when you make a healer, they don't want you to both heal allies and be extra tanky yourself.

    Yeah, I'm quickly finding this out. I just assumed you could build some healing power to have more sustain which will offset how much damage you do. In PvP, it seems it's more ideal to either build straight damage, tanky, or support - seems like it's designed with really no in-between. This just sucks for Rev because healing power is gated behind using Ventari and Salvation. Since Rev heals mainly through utility abilities and not weapon abilities, you need to use Ventari and Salvation is the only trait line that benefits healing. Sucks because I picked up Rev because I was theorycrafting some unique playstyles but I'm quickly learning it's very rigid in it's design philosophies :(

    This post was eye opening because it really shows that even though there seems to be so much horizontal progression for each profession with gear stats, weapons, sigils, runes, traits, etc., it's really a smokescreen because the ideal way to play, especially in PvP, is to build for the Berserker (sometimes Marauder in WvW), Carrion (Trailblazer's in WvW), or Mender (Minstrel in WvW). There's really no other reason to have any other gear for PvP. Really sucks IMO.

  • @Jaykay.9641 said:

    @RabbitUp.8294 said:
    Healing Power is not meant to be a selfish stat, you build it to heal others. The reason why selfish heals have low coefficient is both because they are balanced around their base values, so those don't traits don't feel useless when you don't invest in healing power neither unkillable builds when you, and also because when you make a healer, they don't want you to both heal allies and be extra tanky yourself.

    Yeah, I'm quickly finding this out. I just assumed you could build some healing power to have more sustain which will offset how much damage you do. In PvP, it seems it's more ideal to either build straight damage, tanky, or support - seems like it's designed with really no in-between. This just sucks for Rev because healing power is gated behind using Ventari and Salvation. Since Rev heals mainly through utility abilities and not weapon abilities, you need to use Ventari and Salvation is the only trait line that benefits healing. Sucks because I picked up Rev because I was theorycrafting some unique playstyles but I'm quickly learning it's very rigid in it's design philosophies :(

    This post was eye opening because it really shows that even though there seems to be so much horizontal progression for each profession with gear stats, weapons, sigils, runes, traits, etc., it's really a smokescreen because the ideal way to play, especially in PvP, is to build for the Berserker (sometimes Marauder in WvW), Carrion (Trailblazer's in WvW), or Mender (Minstrel in WvW). There's really no other reason to have any other gear for PvP. Really sucks IMO.

    Yes I discovered this a long time ago, it’s not just exclusive to Rev. looking at the sigils where your only choices are conditional 5% damage boosters, makes you wonder what choices are really available to you.

    Anyway, off topic and a convo for another time.

  • RabbitUp.8294RabbitUp.8294 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 16, 2020

    @Jaykay.9641 said:

    @RabbitUp.8294 said:
    Healing Power is not meant to be a selfish stat, you build it to heal others. The reason why selfish heals have low coefficient is both because they are balanced around their base values, so those don't traits don't feel useless when you don't invest in healing power neither unkillable builds when you, and also because when you make a healer, they don't want you to both heal allies and be extra tanky yourself.

    Yeah, I'm quickly finding this out. I just assumed you could build some healing power to have more sustain which will offset how much damage you do. In PvP, it seems it's more ideal to either build straight damage, tanky, or support - seems like it's designed with really no in-between. This just sucks for Rev because healing power is gated behind using Ventari and Salvation. Since Rev heals mainly through utility abilities and not weapon abilities, you need to use Ventari and Salvation is the only trait line that benefits healing. Sucks because I picked up Rev because I was theorycrafting some unique playstyles but I'm quickly learning it's very rigid in it's design philosophies :(

    This post was eye opening because it really shows that even though there seems to be so much horizontal progression for each profession with gear stats, weapons, sigils, runes, traits, etc., it's really a smokescreen because the ideal way to play, especially in PvP, is to build for the Berserker (sometimes Marauder in WvW), Carrion (Trailblazer's in WvW), or Mender (Minstrel in WvW). There's really no other reason to have any other gear for PvP. Really sucks IMO.

    Salvation is not the only option. Devastation and Retribution offer self-sustain through Battle Scars and upkeep use, and there are multiple ways to get damage reduction in Retribution, Corruption and Herald. And of course Jalis.

    You are focusing too hard on healing, that's only one layer of defense and usually the weakest, because it has the least interaction with your opponent. You have blocks, evades, blinds, weakness, protection, resistance, etc.

    Lack of choices is something that's mainly affecting PvP, and that's because every balance patch has been removing amulets, runes and sigils.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    If you aren't going Ventari for pure support, having more than 500+ Healing Power is a waste of stats. There's a lot better to be done with anything else because of all the things that follow Revenant.

    Willing to help with anything Revenant related.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 26, 2020

    @Buran.3796 said:

    @RabbitUp.8294 said:

    Though, for what it's worth, regen actually scales very well with heal power, and herald can get a 20% modifier for it (and Dwayna runes for another 20%). Basically with Elder's Respite, you are healed by 15% of your heal power per second while you have regen.

    ...In PvE, but if the Build Editor figures are accurate, in WvW and PvP those numbers are way lower. I also made a mistake with the Firebrand stats: a patch in the second week of March slashed the aegis base heals to 199 in PvP, not sure if the editor adjusted that scale. But yeah, no one seems to run a sage or mender amulet with Revenant in PvP, so I guess doesn't provide much advantage.

    Note: Herald/vntari cleric on WvW regen tick over 1k to 1.1k for 10 players, its not a weak regen,regen by itself on pvp compoent isnt a strong heal but rev m8 have the strongest regen values on herald,
    I could reach 1.3regen ticks, per play before patch, the regen was reduced arround 250-280.

    This is what i use on WvW(i would use a very similiar build on gw2 spvp if gw2 gamemodes were similiar to gw1 pvp/gvg rather gimmick or gtfo).
    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PmwAw6ZllQKMKyiNRXsKCjFSisBqgn/0VrF-zRIYf0xXIBVAJGBVnCiML+tZB-e

    I have actually tested that build on spvp with diviner stats if i recall players started to pm really rude comments cause i was negating their low effort wins and they could not get better w/o damage to carry.

    @RabbitUp.8294 indeed.
    Thats the great thing howrev state is atm u can play hybrid builds, atm m8 be the class with most versatility and build diversification.

    @Shao.7236 said:
    If you aren't going Ventari for pure support, having more than 500+ Healing Power is a waste of stats. There's a lot better to be done with anything else because of all the things that follow Revenant.

    For jalis support and hammer i would use assassin bszerker stats.
    For alacrigades, somethingwith boon duration
    Cleric dwayna(regen) or monk(direct heals) always was the best stat+rune combination for support ventari, being insmall scale and large scale.
    ministrel for WvW would be a completely waste since herald needs no boon duration, zealots stats would be a very aceptable stats for herald/ventari as well.