Suggested Changes to Increase Raid Meta Flexibility

Allow Scourge to replace 1 Druid and 1 Warrior. Allow Renegade and Firebrand to replace 1 Chrono.

• General: Make all class-specific stat bonuses effect 10 targets, up from 5 targets
• Druid: Make Frost Spirit and Sun Spirt effect 10 targets, up from 5 targets
• Scourge: Add Grace of the Land to GM Trait - Sand Savant, modified appropriately
• Scourge: Oppressive Collapse - Decrease CD to 20 seconds; Increase Might radius to 600
• Revenant: Redesign Ventari/Renegade to upkeep 100% alacrity

This doesn't increase flexibility so much as it forces scourge, firebrand and renegade.

Also, there's zero reason to be giving GoTL to everyone. Like please, let's not go the route of homogenization when the entire purpose of specializations is to carve out niche's. It's already bad enough that rev's have access to alacrity.

Raids are fairly flexible. It's just that many are fixated on needing the utmost optimal classes/builds.

@TexZero.7910 said:This doesn't increase flexibility so much as it forces scourge, firebrand and renegade.

Also, there's zero reason to be giving GoTL to everyone. Like please, let's not go the route of homogenization when the entire purpose of specializations is to carve out niche's. It's already bad enough that rev's have access to alacrity.

How is it homogenization? GoTL would be given to just Scourge, not everyone. Providing different professions access to overlapping mechanics opens up diversity in raids, increasing professional variability, rather than being pigeon-holed into 2 Druids, 2 Chronos and 2 Warriors. No one loses their niche/spec identity by providing overlapping buffs. Druid isn't defined by GOTL, for example.

@Mikeskies.1536 said:

@TexZero.7910 said:This doesn't increase flexibility so much as it forces scourge, firebrand and renegade.

Also, there's zero reason to be giving GoTL to everyone. Like please, let's not go the route of homogenization when the entire purpose of specializations is to carve out niche's. It's already bad enough that rev's have access to alacrity.

How is it homogenization? GoTL would be given to just Scourge, not everyone. Providing different professions access to overlapping mechanics opens up diversity in raids, increasing professional variability, rather than being pigeon-holed into 2 Druids, 2 Chronos and 2 Warriors. No one loses their niche/spec identity by providing overlapping buffs. Druid isn't defined by GOTL, for example.

Next you'll try to sell me on chrono not being defined by alacrity right ?

Let's not try and beat around the bush here Druids Niche is offensive support and healing and you're trying to give the damage amplification part of GoTL to Scourge is Homogenization. It's not going to increase diversity so much as force 1 Druid 1 Scourge. That's not choice that's restriction.

Instead you could just as easily have scourge still have an offensive support niche by having attacks against barrier return 1-2 stacks of burn/torment and have it's decay be less harsh. If barrier had a guarenteed 3 seconds of max duration before decay it's support would be entirely viable, if it's decay rate was 2% per second it would be viable. As is you're trying to tackle the issue of scourge in the most generic and sloppy way possible and that is identity theft.

Offensive buffs should be reworked to have a much lesser impact on dps not to make having them all mandatory, and every single buff should be shared among 3-4 professions, to ensure diversity. Some non party-wide self-buffs can of course remain, but group dps increase just makes the class providing the best ones mandatory picks over anything else. Buff others and the former ones simply phase out of existence. So buffs are not enough. What is required is a major overhaul of boons and buffs, ie a nerf. I believe defensive buffs are fine though. They're not useless but greatly undervalued quite often.

I don't agree with all the changes Mike proposes, but some degree of buff homogenisation would be a very good thing for this game. Maybe in combination with a general nerf of offensive buffs, as Rennie suggests. But defining niches by giving select classes unique and overpowered buffs is bad. Concentrating these buffs in very few classes is even worse.

While I do agree that GoTL should not be given to other classes, there's nothing wrong with Rev having access to alacrity. FB can pump out quickness to compete with Chrono. There's nothing wrong with other classes having access to unique buffs as long as they don't have access to the same unique buffs (so FB doesn't also get access to alacrity) and Rev doesn't get access to quickness as a shareable boon, leaving Chrono in the niche spot for both quickness and alacrity. But, I do agree that other classes should have something that makes them more competitive with Chrono, cPS, and Druid.

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Raids are fairly flexible. It's just that many are fixated on needing the utmost optimal classes/builds.

Please try running a raid with no quickness and alacrity and let me know how that goes, thanks.

I don't understand the hesitation of opening up GotL and other buffs to other classes. These buffs really aren't any functionally different than boons, which multiple classes can already apply. Honestly, I vaguely wish that more of these things were actual boons instead of random one-off buffs, as that way you could actually build for their application and spread them around a little easier. That might not ever happen (although it did with Quickness), but suffice it to say that spreading these class-specific buffs around more would do wonders for the overall build diversity of the PvE instanced game modes.

@Ertrak.9506 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Raids are fairly flexible. It's just that many are fixated on needing the utmost optimal classes/builds.

You can still down a boss with several minutes to spare without either, it's not like they are mandatory for success.

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

@Ertrak.9506 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Raids are fairly flexible. It's just that many are fixated on needing the utmost optimal classes/builds.

+1

Players like to go fast. That's it. Plenty of bosses have been taken out with as little as 4 players or with running only green gear. Possible to kill bosses without alacrity and Quickness? Absolutely! Are you gonna be miserable the whole encounter because it feels like you're moving in slow motion? Of course!

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

@Ertrak.9506 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Raids are fairly flexible. It's just that many are fixated on needing the utmost optimal classes/builds.

Id argue 90% (hyperbole...) cant meet dps checks on bosses without those buffs, even on bosses like vg wth very loose dps checks.

Ppl seem to think the only reason ppl run the meta is because ppl are obsessed with doing things optimally. While this isnt untrue, its not the whole reason. More than anyone wants to admit, most groups cant beat bosses without these buffs (i don't mean just quickness and alacrity here either), effectively making them mandatory and therefore said classes that provide them the best, mandatory.

I'm gonna take an extreme stance and just straight up say GotL was a mistake to add as a group buff in the first place and should be removed from the game entirely or folded into dps buffs for rangers and their pets, or dropped down to a 1%/stack damage buff.

Druids already had the ability to give class specific buffs with the spirits, and GotL is the only thing standing in the way of firebrands, tempests, and ventari revenants being considered useful for healing. Getting rid of GotL would not diminish a druid's capability for heals while increasing the usefulness of alternate options.

@UnbentMars.9126 said:I'm gonna take an extreme stance and just straight up say GotL was a mistake to add as a group buff in the first place and should be removed from the game entirely or folded into dps buffs for rangers and their pets, or dropped down to a 1%/stack damage buff.

Druids already had the ability to give class specific buffs with the spirits, and GotL is the only thing standing in the way of firebrands, tempests, and ventari revenants being considered useful for healing. Getting rid of GotL would not diminish a druid's capability for heals while increasing the usefulness of alternate options.

Why not just make it available to other classes like Alacrity to Revenant?

@Rising Dusk.2408 said:I don't understand the hesitation of opening up GotL and other buffs to other classes. These buffs really aren't any functionally different than boons, which multiple classes can already apply. Honestly, I vaguely wish that more of these things were actual boons instead of random one-off buffs, as that way you could actually build for their application and spread them around a little easier. That might not ever happen (although it did with Quickness), but suffice it to say that spreading these class-specific buffs around more would do wonders for the overall build diversity of the PvE instanced game modes.

By opening it up, you're not increasing diversity but killing it. You're creating another source of competition where X class can do Y's job better so we'll never take Y.

If you leave it unique but give each class a specialized point of power, you can create real diversity because you have to make choices based on not only your comp but the trade-offs between how certain classes may interact.

You can hardly kill diversity for support roles when you have none to begin with.

@CptAurellian.9537 said:You can hardly kill diversity for support roles when you have none to begin with.

Misconception, you about as many choices for competitive support as you do for DPS. Tempest, Druid, Warrior, Chrono, Rev & Firebrand are all very capable and viable supports. Scourge with some minor tweaks would also slot in there with no real downsides.

This is largely the problem though people say support in the far reaching vacuum when they actually mean, we don't have enough viability when it comes to healing. Sure, but Scourge isn't that and slapping GoTL on them isn't going to fix their support. What will make them viable supports is increasing the barrier uptime window and giving it some momentary power like applying conditions when struck while under the influence of barrier.

As for fixing healing Ventari at this point really is just numbers, if they do that it would be equal to or greater than that of Druid. Right now it's just slightly behind. But these two would be your go to Offensive healing supports.

What is needed is another Defense healing support. Guardian/Firebrand could in an ideal world fill this if they decreased hammer 1 after cast (boring playstyle) and increased the overall strength of Resolve and Writ of Persistence. Then G/FB could compete with Tempest for the go to Defensive Healing supports.

All im saying here is they have plenty of options to fix balance none of which need to be the lazy go to of identity theft. Leave the niche's alone and build in new niche's for each class if you want more diversity.

@TexZero.7910 said:If you leave it unique but give each class a specialized point of power, you can create real diversity because you have to make choices based on not only your comp but the trade-offs between how certain classes may interact.All this really does is create a new meta with new mandatory classes to achieve the ideal spread of buffs. Opening up access to more classes actually gives you multiple venues to reach 100% uptime of specific key buffs, which lets groups bring what they want.

@Rising Dusk.2408 said:

@TexZero.7910 said:If you leave it unique but give each class a specialized point of power, you can create real diversity because you have to make choices based on not only your comp but the trade-offs between how certain classes may interact.All this really does is create a new meta with new mandatory classes to achieve the ideal spread of buffs. Opening up access to more classes actually gives you multiple venues to reach 100% uptime of specific key buffs, which lets groups bring what they want.

The idea is not to have 100% uptime, that's half the problem with design as is. You should be pushed to make strategic trade-offs of power, not just stack all the game changing buffs which is what your idea pushes really hard.

copying a post i made on the necro forum. it may be stupid, but i think it can be an interesting idea at least:

i had a thought about how i would like to improve the necro's support.... (Raid perspective)I do agree with some of the suggestions about having barriers affected by concentration, that makes you sacrifice damage for support. and that's a good thing imo.however i do not agree with adding another unique buff, that will only add to the problem. and i think the game needs less of it.

what i would suggest is to add a function to the barriers so that they allow unique buffs to be copied... (lets say with the GM trait)how it would work is:

• when you give someone a barrier that has a unique buff (lets say Spotter). that spotter buff is then applied to all other allies also affected by your barrier. the buff laststhe duration of that barrier.

it will not affect boons, so you still need classes for that job.but what that can do is to free up the group composition a little. you are still going to bring the WAY to OP druid/cPS/chrono. But it can free up some spots in the second group. if your chrono #2 is tiered of playing chrono because no one else bothers to gear one up, replace him with some guardian main who wants to try a quickness build. alacrity is provided by chrono #1, and copied to the second group via barrier...

Pro's:

• Free's up the composition from the mandatory 2x3 supp + 2 dps.
• no need to add yet another unique buff to the game to be able to contribute to the group via offensive support.
• you still need to bring what ever class that can provide the unique buffs you want, so it wont throw anything else out the window

Cons:

• barriers need to last longer, ideally have it be affected by concentration so that you have to specc for this to work.
• Up-time on these buffs copied by barrier may not be as good as in group #1, maybe that is the compensation for bringing more dps specs?
• your noob friend that got carried by Mesmer distorts will face tank every hit from the boss and loose all his barrier = no buffs.
• that same friend decides to pick flowers on the other side of the arena. no barrier = no buffs.

Maybe this this wont work in practice, instead have the buffs copied a set amount of seconds every tome you provide the barrier, but the copy functions the same way...this is just some thoughts i had about how you can support in a unique way, without adding more stupid unique buffs...

@TexZero.7910 said:The idea is not to have 100% uptime, that's half the problem with design as is. You should be pushed to make strategic trade-offs of power, not just stack all the game changing buffs which is what your idea pushes really hard.There aren't enough buffs at this point where even if they took your suggestion would you not be able to maintain sufficient uptime. Even if you did something crazy like halve banner durations, people would just require two Warriors to upkeep the buff. With sufficient nerfs to these effects, eventually sacrifices would need to be made, but at that point you'd also have to seriously rebalance every GW2 raid encounter as well. Ultimately it would settle on "whatever combined does the most possible damage" and we'd get just as much rigidity as we have now to achieve that.

If, for instance, you just took banner buffs and EA and gave them to another class like Guardian, then a player could play either a Warrior or a Guardian to fill that role. That is actual diversity. I guess if you removed literally every effect like this, then you'd just get a bunch of DPS classes and you'd achieve parity that way, but I think that would create a much less compelling combat experience overall (and it'd devolve into 10 "whatever does most damage" groups, which is the worst-case).

@TexZero.7910 said:

@Rising Dusk.2408 said:

@TexZero.7910 said:If you leave it unique but give each class a specialized point of power, you can create real diversity because you have to make choices based on not only your comp but the trade-offs between how certain classes may interact.All this really does is create a new meta with new mandatory classes to achieve the ideal spread of buffs. Opening up access to more classes actually gives you multiple venues to reach 100% uptime of specific key buffs, which lets groups bring what they want.

I don't like the idea of intentionally crippling the boons to the point you can't upkeep their duration. It won't kill the meta which is created around those buffs, simply make playing it so much harder as you'd need to sync the skill uses of multiple players to get a reasonable burst. The alternative - groups which simply don't care about the combat boons - is no better. It's sluggish, chaotic struggle. Just go to off-meta t4 groups to get a glimpse of it.

The current meta might not have diversity, but at least it has gameplay which properly rewards skill. Which is more important after all.

Personally, I'd go the other way - let multiple classes be able to maintain the vital buffs. Actually ANet are doing something like that. Firebrand's access to quickness, Renegade's might and alacrity sharing. These are not good enough to warrant a direct replacement of the current support meta, but then this won't be diversity, it will be changing one rigid meta with another. Diversity is giving the options to have a different viable group comp which may or may not partly overlap with the existing one.

My suggestions:

1. Raise aura traits (Spotter, Empower Allies, etc.) to a 10 target cap.
2. Raise Empower Allies to a 10 target cap

Just from these two, we can drop from 2 Druids and CPS Warriors to 1 of each, opening two slots.

3. Give Necromancers an aura-style debuff to enemies, perhaps lowering stats. Necros already have a skill that actually lowers a target's Vitality stat, so this is clearly possible in the game engine. I would advise against the chosen stat being Vitality, since each point of Vitality is only 10 health, which to make any relevant impact on bosses, would literally insta-kill trash mobs.
4. Reduce energy costs on Renegade. They need to be able to do something other than auto-attack when they use their abilities.

@Rising Dusk.2408 said:

@TexZero.7910 said:The idea is not to have 100% uptime, that's half the problem with design as is. You should be pushed to make strategic trade-offs of power, not just stack all the game changing buffs which is what your idea pushes really hard.There aren't enough buffs at this point where even if they took your suggestion would you not be able to maintain sufficient uptime. Even if you did something crazy like halve banner durations, people would just require two Warriors to upkeep the buff. With sufficient nerfs to these effects, eventually sacrifices would need to be made, but at that point you'd also have to seriously rebalance every GW2 raid encounter as well. Ultimately it would settle on "whatever combined does the most possible damage" and we'd get just as much rigidity as we have now to achieve that.

Or we can not go the extreme and actually create cross-class synergies. IE right now we have what i'll refer to as Mirror Meta. Instead of outright copying this by giving us two classes that can do it we can quite literally open up other meta comps by enforcing what they do well and having them do it well together. I.E The old GW1 way where we had multiple meta comps be it RoJ, Frost, Manly etc... You could just as easily do the same by turning off the always on passive power of things like banners/spirts/GoTL/and unique class passives and have them play a more pivotal role in designing your composition. Some simple changes to instead of always on but conditional power would go a long way ex. Frost Spirit 10% damage bonus is only applied when your target has 3 or more seconds of chill. Yes it would take a lot to shift the current design to this but ultimately it solves the problems we currently have because as is we have too much always on effects and that's what's really hurting diversity more than any single skill/class you can point to.