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Reduce Guard's retaliation up time

Eugchriss.2046Eugchriss.2046 Member ✭✭✭

It's all in the title. Being able to deal ~10k+ free damage with a passive boon is too much. And beyond that, since aegis and retaliation are complementary, guard is the only class that shouldn't have access to this boon at all since the have the monopole of aegis.
This class retaliation uptime needs to be shaved really hard.

<1

Comments

  • Khalisto.5780Khalisto.5780 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 10, 2020

    Mesmers have aegis

    And you can avoid retalion with incredible stow weapons keybind

  • Play Warrior. Then you won't have the luxury of being able to stack multiple multi hitting skills killing yourself.

  • @Khalisto.5780 said:
    Mesmers have aegis

    And you can avoid retalion with incredible stow weapons keybind

    guards have perm retal? u gonna spam stow weapon all game long?

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭

    @DonNee.5128 said:

    @Khalisto.5780 said:
    Mesmers have aegis

    And you can avoid retalion with incredible stow weapons keybind

    guards have perm retal? u gonna spam stow weapon all game long?

    No they don't. Only a Radiance power build has high retal uptime, and nobody is playing that, and even then it's not 100%. Symbol guard, burn guard, symbolbrand, none of them have high retal uptime. Elixir engi/holo/scrapper builds have higher uptime than guardian does. Is retal overpowered on engi?

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ragnar.4257 said:
    No they don't. Only a Radiance power build has high retal uptime, and nobody is playing that, and even then it's not 100%. Symbol guard, burn guard, symbolbrand, none of them have high retal uptime. Elixir engi/holo/scrapper builds have higher uptime than guardian does. Is retal overpowered on engi?

    Retal usually does 10k+ damage on core guard where burning does just a bit more (sage amulet).

  • felix.2386felix.2386 Member ✭✭✭

    warrior take half their own hp bar away by landing axe 5 on guard lul

    warrior has been unplayable in pvp
    for 6 months till now

    good job balance team

  • Aza.2105Aza.2105 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 10, 2020

    @felix.2386 said:
    warrior take half their own hp bar away by landing axe 5 on guard lul

    Then don't use axe 5 on a guard with retaliation. It seems like a very very simple solution to me.

  • wasss.1208wasss.1208 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ragnar.4257 said:
    And you didn't answer the question. If retal is a problem on guardian, with builds that maybe have 30% uptime, why is it not a problem on engi builds with more like 80% uptime?

    I give you a cookie if you give me a viable 80% retal uptime engi build.

    And to answer your question: Viability. Engi for example still has "passive" stuff with 1,75 modifier on it (or heck, even passive stunbreaks with "low" cooldown), but noone complains about them, because noone uses them, since they are part of unviable builds. If the build using these stuff are rare, unviable, or underpowered, barely anyone will notice them even existing.
    If everyone, and their ancestors plays the said build, people will start to complain about it. Like the current FT scrapper, or core gua.

  • Tharan.9085Tharan.9085 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @DonNee.5128 said:

    @Khalisto.5780 said:
    Mesmers have aegis

    And you can avoid retalion with incredible stow weapons keybind

    guards have perm retal? u gonna spam stow weapon all game long?

    No they don't. Only a Radiance power build has high retal uptime, and nobody is playing that, and even then it's not 100%. Symbol guard, burn guard, symbolbrand, none of them have high retal uptime. Elixir engi/holo/scrapper builds have higher uptime than guardian does. Is retal overpowered on engi?

    I think you're not up to date with the current core guard

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 10, 2020

    @Ragnar.4257 said:
    People don't understand death breakdowns.

    Conditions, and retal, are always top of the list, because they never get "reset" by the counter. If retal has done 10k damage to you, then it's a fight that has gone on for a LONG time, and 10k damage over 90 seconds really isn't much.

    I use arcdps, death breakdown is useless. Retal is usually my 2nd highest damage depending on enemy type. 1st is burning.

    And you didn't answer the question. If retal is a problem on guardian, with builds that maybe have 30% uptime, why is it not a problem on engi builds with more like 80% uptime?

    How come guard has 20% retal uptime? You have aegis -> retal and confusion -> retal which makes high retal uptime with shield 4, mace 2 etc.

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:
    No they don't. Only a Radiance power build has high retal uptime, and nobody is playing that, and even then it's not 100%. Symbol guard, burn guard, symbolbrand, none of them have high retal uptime. Elixir engi/holo/scrapper builds have higher uptime than guardian does. Is retal overpowered on engi?

    Retal usually does 10k+ damage on core guard where burning does just a bit more (sage amulet).

    People don't understand death breakdowns.

    Conditions, and retal, are always top of the list, because they never get "reset" by the counter. If retal has done 10k damage to you, then it's a fight that has gone on for a LONG time, and 10k damage over 90 seconds really isn't much.

    And you didn't answer the question. If retal is a problem on guardian, with builds that maybe have 30% uptime, why is it not a problem on engi builds with more like 80% uptime?

    I’d say Ragnar is right on the money. The true offender for insane retal uptime is radiance builds which while it’s possible to play some with insane dmg- they just aren’t really reliable. What ppl are talking about is probably symbol core guard which at best is like 50-60% uptime and that’s taking symbol on heal trait and one of the stun breaks that give retal which not everyone does especially on Eu where it seems like they like having a little bit extra team support builds.
    On a separate note- sages is pmuch garbage on core guard. To my understanding 1 player, yes 1 player ever used it and in testing it lost every duel even to the supporty menders Eu build that has been seeing play and yet it’s meant for dueling hence - No Symbol Guards Damage is not coming from only “burning and retal “. That damage is only significant in prolonged fights also where probably they tried kiting and attack the core guard either with projectiles and/or condi aoes.

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 10, 2020

    @Dantheman.3589 said:
    I’d say Ragnar is right on the money. The true offender for insane retal uptime is radiance builds which while it’s possible to play some with insane dmg- they just aren’t really reliable. What ppl are talking about is probably symbol core guard which at best is like 50-60% uptime and that’s taking symbol on heal trait and one of the stun breaks that give retal which not everyone does especially on Eu where it seems like they like having a little bit extra team support builds.
    On a separate note- sages is pmuch garbage on core guard. To my understanding 1 player, yes 1 player ever used it and in testing it lost every duel even to the supporty menders Eu build that has been seeing play and yet it’s meant for dueling hence - No Symbol Guards Damage is not coming from only “burning and retal “. That damage is only significant in prolonged fights also where probably they tried kiting and attack the core guard either with projectiles and/or condi aoes.

    https://www.godsofpvp.net/builds/guardian

    Andreas uses a very similar build

  • @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @DonNee.5128 said:

    @Khalisto.5780 said:
    Mesmers have aegis

    And you can avoid retalion with incredible stow weapons keybind

    guards have perm retal? u gonna spam stow weapon all game long?

    No they don't. Only a Radiance power build has high retal uptime, and nobody is playing that, and even then it's not 100%. Symbol guard, burn guard, symbolbrand, none of them have high retal uptime. Elixir engi/holo/scrapper builds have higher uptime than guardian does. Is retal overpowered on engi?

    all u need is wrathful spirit on zeal to give perm retal passively
    especially symbol builds use this

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 10, 2020

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:
    People don't understand death breakdowns.

    Conditions, and retal, are always top of the list, because they never get "reset" by the counter. If retal has done 10k damage to you, then it's a fight that has gone on for a LONG time, and 10k damage over 90 seconds really isn't much.

    I use arcdps, death breakdown is useless. Retal is usually my 2nd highest damage depending on enemy type. 1st is burning.

    And you didn't answer the question. If retal is a problem on guardian, with builds that maybe have 30% uptime, why is it not a problem on engi builds with more like 80% uptime?

    How come guard has 20% retal uptime? You have aegis -> retal and confusion -> retal which makes high retal uptime with shield 4, mace 2 etc.

    Look, I'm not going to split hairs over whether its 30% or 50%. The point is that it's a LONG way off "perma". And is less than what many other builds can achieve.

    Symbol bunker is only getting retal from Wrathful Spirit aegis->retal, which provides 4s of retal. Core guard is maybe putting out roughly 1 aegis every 10 seconds.

    If you're using your aegis skills/traits exactly on cooldown, and the enemy is kind enough to proc them immediately, then you can go above 50% uptime, but that's a very idealised scenario. In reality it will be lower.

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭

    @wasss.1208 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:
    And you didn't answer the question. If retal is a problem on guardian, with builds that maybe have 30% uptime, why is it not a problem on engi builds with more like 80% uptime?

    I give you a cookie if you give me a viable 80% retal uptime engi build.

    And to answer your question: Viability. Engi for example still has "passive" stuff with 1,75 modifier on it (or heck, even passive stunbreaks with "low" cooldown), but noone complains about them, because noone uses them, since they are part of unviable builds. If the build using these stuff are rare, unviable, or underpowered, barely anyone will notice them even existing.
    If everyone, and their ancestors plays the said build, people will start to complain about it. Like the current FT scrapper, or core gua.

    Equip Elixir B. Done.

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 10, 2020

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:
    I’d say Ragnar is right on the money. The true offender for insane retal uptime is radiance builds which while it’s possible to play some with insane dmg- they just aren’t really reliable. What ppl are talking about is probably symbol core guard which at best is like 50-60% uptime and that’s taking symbol on heal trait and one of the stun breaks that give retal which not everyone does especially on Eu where it seems like they like having a little bit extra team support builds.
    On a separate note- sages is pmuch garbage on core guard. To my understanding 1 player, yes 1 player ever used it and in testing it lost every duel even to the supporty menders Eu build that has been seeing play and yet it’s meant for dueling hence - No Symbol Guards Damage is not coming from only “burning and retal “. That damage is only significant in prolonged fights also where probably they tried kiting and attack the core guard either with projectiles and/or condi aoes.

    https://www.godsofpvp.net/builds/guardian

    Andreas uses a very similar build

    Yes and it’s not viable . Metabattle has had the build that ppl have been using for ages

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dantheman.3589 said:
    Yes and it’s not viable

    I'll trust high ranked players I know (p3-leg).

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:
    Yes and it’s not viable

    I'll trust high ranked players I know (p3-leg).

    Ok than trust me. In testing the build it lost every 1v1 to the team mates that were testing core guard builds

  • Tharan.9085Tharan.9085 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dantheman.3589 said:

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @Dantheman.3589 said:
    I’d say Ragnar is right on the money. The true offender for insane retal uptime is radiance builds which while it’s possible to play some with insane dmg- they just aren’t really reliable. What ppl are talking about is probably symbol core guard which at best is like 50-60% uptime and that’s taking symbol on heal trait and one of the stun breaks that give retal which not everyone does especially on Eu where it seems like they like having a little bit extra team support builds.
    On a separate note- sages is pmuch garbage on core guard. To my understanding 1 player, yes 1 player ever used it and in testing it lost every duel even to the supporty menders Eu build that has been seeing play and yet it’s meant for dueling hence - No Symbol Guards Damage is not coming from only “burning and retal “. That damage is only significant in prolonged fights also where probably they tried kiting and attack the core guard either with projectiles and/or condi aoes.

    https://www.godsofpvp.net/builds/guardian

    Andreas uses a very similar build

    Yes and it’s not viable . Metabattle has had the build that ppl have been using for ages

    Metabattle is an unreliable build source and is always a few months behind

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭

    @DonNee.5128 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @DonNee.5128 said:

    @Khalisto.5780 said:
    Mesmers have aegis

    And you can avoid retalion with incredible stow weapons keybind

    guards have perm retal? u gonna spam stow weapon all game long?

    No they don't. Only a Radiance power build has high retal uptime, and nobody is playing that, and even then it's not 100%. Symbol guard, burn guard, symbolbrand, none of them have high retal uptime. Elixir engi/holo/scrapper builds have higher uptime than guardian does. Is retal overpowered on engi?

    all u need is wrathful spirit on zeal to give perm retal passively
    especially symbol builds use this

    How do you figure that one? How are you producing an Aegis every 4 seconds? Why don't you link the skills that are doing this. We'll wait.

  • DonNee.5128DonNee.5128 Member ✭✭
    edited September 10, 2020

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @DonNee.5128 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @DonNee.5128 said:

    @Khalisto.5780 said:
    Mesmers have aegis

    And you can avoid retalion with incredible stow weapons keybind

    guards have perm retal? u gonna spam stow weapon all game long?

    No they don't. Only a Radiance power build has high retal uptime, and nobody is playing that, and even then it's not 100%. Symbol guard, burn guard, symbolbrand, none of them have high retal uptime. Elixir engi/holo/scrapper builds have higher uptime than guardian does. Is retal overpowered on engi?

    all u need is wrathful spirit on zeal to give perm retal passively
    especially symbol builds use this

    How do you figure that one? How are you producing an Aegis every 4 seconds? Why don't you link the skills that are doing this. We'll wait.

    ye mantra heal and shield or mace and shield, on top of your initial block and active one you can use
    if u win ez then maybe zeal passive symbol will not proc, but otherwise u will have perm retal until every fight is over

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭

    @DonNee.5128 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @DonNee.5128 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @DonNee.5128 said:

    @Khalisto.5780 said:
    Mesmers have aegis

    And you can avoid retalion with incredible stow weapons keybind

    guards have perm retal? u gonna spam stow weapon all game long?

    No they don't. Only a Radiance power build has high retal uptime, and nobody is playing that, and even then it's not 100%. Symbol guard, burn guard, symbolbrand, none of them have high retal uptime. Elixir engi/holo/scrapper builds have higher uptime than guardian does. Is retal overpowered on engi?

    all u need is wrathful spirit on zeal to give perm retal passively
    especially symbol builds use this

    How do you figure that one? How are you producing an Aegis every 4 seconds? Why don't you link the skills that are doing this. We'll wait.

    ye mantra heal and shield or mace and shield, on top of your initial block and active one you can use
    if u win ez then maybe zeal passive symbol will not proc, but otherwise u will have perm retal until every fight is over

    Over a 90s period, you can use F3 twice, shield 4 times, mace-3 6 times, for a total of 12 aegis over 90 seconds. That'll give you 48s of retal.

    And that is assuming you use those things EXACTLY on cooldown, which you would never do, since you save them for appropriate moments.

    Where's the other 42s coming from?

  • Khalisto.5780Khalisto.5780 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DonNee.5128 said:

    @Khalisto.5780 said:
    Mesmers have aegis

    And you can avoid retalion with incredible stow weapons keybind

    guards have perm retal? u gonna spam stow weapon all game long?

    No. No.

  • Retal is just annoying on old Core Guard variants, like GS/SwordFocus, but now because of how tanky a Core Guard can be built on the sidenodes you really need to use all of your offensive cooldowns and just spam with no regards to your own HP to even have a slight chance of killing the Core Guard on a multitude of classes, either its sustain needs to be cut by ALOT, retal uptime needs to go down, or the Symbol Trait needs to be completely revamped. The latter of the 3 changes would do both, cut its sustain just a tiny bit of course, but also make the counterpressure of the build much lower.

    Your counter pressure on any sidenode build should not be putting down fields, your counterpressure on any build should not be Retaliation.

    I'm a well known nobody.
    Former member of [MnF], [DnT], [dP], and [Hg]. Winner of the 2018 ERP Tournament.

  • @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @DonNee.5128 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @DonNee.5128 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @DonNee.5128 said:

    @Khalisto.5780 said:
    Mesmers have aegis

    And you can avoid retalion with incredible stow weapons keybind

    guards have perm retal? u gonna spam stow weapon all game long?

    No they don't. Only a Radiance power build has high retal uptime, and nobody is playing that, and even then it's not 100%. Symbol guard, burn guard, symbolbrand, none of them have high retal uptime. Elixir engi/holo/scrapper builds have higher uptime than guardian does. Is retal overpowered on engi?

    all u need is wrathful spirit on zeal to give perm retal passively
    especially symbol builds use this

    How do you figure that one? How are you producing an Aegis every 4 seconds? Why don't you link the skills that are doing this. We'll wait.

    ye mantra heal and shield or mace and shield, on top of your initial block and active one you can use
    if u win ez then maybe zeal passive symbol will not proc, but otherwise u will have perm retal until every fight is over

    Over a 90s period, you can use F3 twice, shield 4 times, mace-3 6 times, for a total of 12 aegis over 90 seconds. That'll give you 48s of retal.

    And that is assuming you use those things EXACTLY on cooldown, which you would never do, since you save them for appropriate moments.

    Where's the other 42s coming from?

    3x zealot speed and 3x valorous defense = 48 sec of retal
    i understand it's not solely a math game, but if u save ur blocks for appropriate moments you are gonna have retal on the appropriate moment

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 10, 2020

    @DonNee.5128 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @DonNee.5128 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @DonNee.5128 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @DonNee.5128 said:

    @Khalisto.5780 said:
    Mesmers have aegis

    And you can avoid retalion with incredible stow weapons keybind

    guards have perm retal? u gonna spam stow weapon all game long?

    No they don't. Only a Radiance power build has high retal uptime, and nobody is playing that, and even then it's not 100%. Symbol guard, burn guard, symbolbrand, none of them have high retal uptime. Elixir engi/holo/scrapper builds have higher uptime than guardian does. Is retal overpowered on engi?

    all u need is wrathful spirit on zeal to give perm retal passively
    especially symbol builds use this

    How do you figure that one? How are you producing an Aegis every 4 seconds? Why don't you link the skills that are doing this. We'll wait.

    ye mantra heal and shield or mace and shield, on top of your initial block and active one you can use
    if u win ez then maybe zeal passive symbol will not proc, but otherwise u will have perm retal until every fight is over

    Over a 90s period, you can use F3 twice, shield 4 times, mace-3 6 times, for a total of 12 aegis over 90 seconds. That'll give you 48s of retal.

    And that is assuming you use those things EXACTLY on cooldown, which you would never do, since you save them for appropriate moments.

    Where's the other 42s coming from?

    3x zealot speed and 3x valorous defense = 48 sec of retal
    i understand it's not solely a math game, but if u save ur blocks for appropriate moments you are gonna have retal on the appropriate moment

    It's 36s, not 48s (EDIT: my mistake, forgot to account for extra symbol duration), and you won't be entering a fight on 50% HP. A bunker will certainly not be triggering those on cooldown. Also assumes sitting full duration in lesser symbol of wrath.

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @DonNee.5128 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @DonNee.5128 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @DonNee.5128 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @DonNee.5128 said:

    @Khalisto.5780 said:
    Mesmers have aegis

    And you can avoid retalion with incredible stow weapons keybind

    guards have perm retal? u gonna spam stow weapon all game long?

    No they don't. Only a Radiance power build has high retal uptime, and nobody is playing that, and even then it's not 100%. Symbol guard, burn guard, symbolbrand, none of them have high retal uptime. Elixir engi/holo/scrapper builds have higher uptime than guardian does. Is retal overpowered on engi?

    all u need is wrathful spirit on zeal to give perm retal passively
    especially symbol builds use this

    How do you figure that one? How are you producing an Aegis every 4 seconds? Why don't you link the skills that are doing this. We'll wait.

    ye mantra heal and shield or mace and shield, on top of your initial block and active one you can use
    if u win ez then maybe zeal passive symbol will not proc, but otherwise u will have perm retal until every fight is over

    Over a 90s period, you can use F3 twice, shield 4 times, mace-3 6 times, for a total of 12 aegis over 90 seconds. That'll give you 48s of retal.

    And that is assuming you use those things EXACTLY on cooldown, which you would never do, since you save them for appropriate moments.

    Where's the other 42s coming from?

    3x zealot speed and 3x valorous defense = 48 sec of retal
    i understand it's not solely a math game, but if u save ur blocks for appropriate moments you are gonna have retal on the appropriate moment

    It's 36s, not 48s, and you won't be entering a fight on 50% HP. A bunker will certainly not be triggering those on cooldown. Also assumes sitting full duration in lesser symbol of wrath.

    Am I missing some thing using gw2 skill editor I see 2 secs x3 for zealots speed and 3 aegis for valorous defense which will end up 3x4 + 6 which is 18 secs. Is gw2 skill editor wrong?

  • @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @DonNee.5128 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @DonNee.5128 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @DonNee.5128 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @DonNee.5128 said:

    @Khalisto.5780 said:
    Mesmers have aegis

    And you can avoid retalion with incredible stow weapons keybind

    guards have perm retal? u gonna spam stow weapon all game long?

    No they don't. Only a Radiance power build has high retal uptime, and nobody is playing that, and even then it's not 100%. Symbol guard, burn guard, symbolbrand, none of them have high retal uptime. Elixir engi/holo/scrapper builds have higher uptime than guardian does. Is retal overpowered on engi?

    all u need is wrathful spirit on zeal to give perm retal passively
    especially symbol builds use this

    How do you figure that one? How are you producing an Aegis every 4 seconds? Why don't you link the skills that are doing this. We'll wait.

    ye mantra heal and shield or mace and shield, on top of your initial block and active one you can use
    if u win ez then maybe zeal passive symbol will not proc, but otherwise u will have perm retal until every fight is over

    Over a 90s period, you can use F3 twice, shield 4 times, mace-3 6 times, for a total of 12 aegis over 90 seconds. That'll give you 48s of retal.

    And that is assuming you use those things EXACTLY on cooldown, which you would never do, since you save them for appropriate moments.

    Where's the other 42s coming from?

    3x zealot speed and 3x valorous defense = 48 sec of retal
    i understand it's not solely a math game, but if u save ur blocks for appropriate moments you are gonna have retal on the appropriate moment

    It's 36s, not 48s, and you won't be entering a fight on 50% HP. A bunker will certainly not be triggering those on cooldown. Also assumes sitting full duration in lesser symbol of wrath.

    ye i assumed symbol guardian sits full duration in symbols and spams skills off cooldown
    even if the guard doesn't use syg, weapon reduction traits or the crazy idea of using travelers over lynx and let's say your calculations were even correct, you are looking at 84 secs retal out of 90 sec?

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TeqkOneStylez.8047 said:
    Play Warrior. Then you won't have the luxury of being able to stack multiple multi hitting skills killing yourself.

    Play Revenant 4head, almost every powerful weapon skills have a multi hit.

    Willing to help with anything Revenant related.

  • aelska.4609aelska.4609 Member ✭✭✭

    @Eugchriss.2046 said:
    It's all in the title. Being able to deal ~10k+ free damage with a passive boon is too much. And beyond that, since aegis and retaliation are complementary, guard is the only class that shouldn't have access to this boon at all since the have the monopole of aegis.
    This class retaliation uptime needs to be shaved really hard.

    Retaliation is a problem as it punishes people succeeding to land many small hits more than people landing one big hit. That's an heavy counter to many weapons (e.g., you can never use GS#2 without killing yourself in a teamfight; while it is designed to be a meat grinder).

    Besides that, I feel like you are especially salty towards guards. There is only one build that combines both retaliation and aegis which is bunker symbol. Because:

    • Condi guard needs to keep virtues under cooldown to proc burning, which only generates retaliation when activated. It has NO aegis spam (one block each 32s cannot be considered OP with in nowaday's game). This aegis is untreated and does nothing besides a single block. So basically a build without retaliation and aegis.
    • DPS guard IS heavily dependent to retaliation (huge damage boost) BUT has NO aegis spam (same as condi guard).
    • Symbol bunker guard has both ... and way more: this build relies heavily on aegis + big symbols + protection to survive. Pure of heart makes aegis a wonderful healing boost. Retaliation is a by-product of wrathful spirit minor trait that is conveniently located ... in symbols traitline.

    If you are mad against condi guard and DPS guard, trust me it, is not because you got hit by retaliation. These builds have low active defenses and can't sustain "many small hits" enough for retaliation to be actually effective. Dont facetank their burst and damage them while their burst is over.

    If you are mad against bunker symbol then I have to confess I am too. But hitting retaliation output of this build (or guard in general) won't solve the problem, as it is only a by-product. Reduce/remove the damage of their symbols (or remove Writh or persistence trait) so that it is more healthy in a node-based gamemode. Rework mace so that it is not a bunker weapon anymore (#2 offers way too much healing, #3 got powercreeped in 2016 patch -Who said HoT ??- with massive damage + protection + aegis).

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 10, 2020

    10k retaliation damage is 50 hits. With 50 hits you can kill the guard 3 times even if use multi hit skill exclusively. If you use single hit burst skills you can kill the guard 10 times before retaliation kills you.

    In the average fight against a guard that can keep up retail the each time he is attacked, it does something around 2k damage before the guard dies. There is nothing to complain about for a boon that requires a specific build with tradeoffs.

  • felix.2386felix.2386 Member ✭✭✭

    @Aza.2105 said:

    @felix.2386 said:
    warrior take half their own hp bar away by landing axe 5 on guard lul

    Then don't use axe 5 on a guard with retaliation. It seems like a very very simple solution to me.

    except that guard always has retaliation, and when they don't they just shelter or aegis or focus 5 or just CCing you.
    guard has so many damage mitigation that covering retal gap is literally childs game.

    warrior has been unplayable in pvp
    for 6 months till now

    good job balance team

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @KrHome.1920 said:
    10k retaliation damage is 50 hits. With 50 hits you can kill the guard 3 times even if use multi hit skill exclusively. If you use single hit burst skills you can kill the guard 10 times before retaliation kills you.

    In the average fight against a guard that can keep up retail the each time he is attacked, it does something around 2k damage before the guard dies. There is nothing to complain about for a boon that requires a specific build with tradeoffs.

    As a necro of course you can kill guards, but most classes can't kill it (holo included to a degree). At least decap scrapper can knock them away.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 10, 2020

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @DonNee.5128 said:

    @Khalisto.5780 said:
    Mesmers have aegis

    And you can avoid retalion with incredible stow weapons keybind

    guards have perm retal? u gonna spam stow weapon all game long?

    No they don't. Only a Radiance power build has high retal uptime, and nobody is playing that, and even then it's not 100%. Symbol guard, burn guard, symbolbrand, none of them have high retal uptime. Elixir engi/holo/scrapper builds have higher uptime than guardian does. Is retal overpowered on engi?

    Yes and no. Core power guardian running gs, sword has more than 100% uptime uptime on retaliation. Way more. Not literally, but stripping means little since the can apply it again. Though ya.. you want see that. FB has zero retaliation, if I remember correctly. For condi core, it depends. If the core guardian Burn runs virtues they will have good uptime. Zeal, maybe, depending on traits. Unlikely to pick the adept major trait for retaliation after aegis over the scepter might trait.

    As a whole, considering that damage overall had nearly 50% nerf across the board, retaliation is 50% stronger. Still, it is not that major source of damage. 250 or so per hit. It adds up, but is only that effective against multi hit attacks.

    As a whole, retaliation is a stupid boon that should be removed.

    @felix.2386 said:

    @Aza.2105 said:

    @felix.2386 said:
    warrior take half their own hp bar away by landing axe 5 on guard lul

    Then don't use axe 5 on a guard with retaliation. It seems like a very very simple solution to me.

    except that guard always has retaliation, and when they don't they just shelter or aegis or focus 5 or just CCing you.
    guard has so many damage mitigation that covering retal gap is literally childs game.

    That is the opposite of how to use retaliation. You are supposed to used when you will get attacked not when you are not going to get attacked. Unless you play power core where it has 100% uptime, all the time.

  • @Khalisto.5780 said:
    Mesmers have aegis

    And you can avoid retalion with incredible stow weapons keybind

    mesmers have what?

  • Khalisto.5780Khalisto.5780 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Terrorhuz.4695 said:

    @Khalisto.5780 said:
    Mesmers have aegis

    And you can avoid retalion with incredible stow weapons keybind

    mesmers have what?

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Inspiration

  • Terrorhuz.4695Terrorhuz.4695 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 10, 2020

    @Khalisto.5780 said:

    @Terrorhuz.4695 said:

    @Khalisto.5780 said:
    Mesmers have aegis

    And you can avoid retalion with incredible stow weapons keybind

    mesmers have what?

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Inspiration

    I beg you please tell me you are joking. I need to know you are not being serious.

  • Tharan.9085Tharan.9085 Member ✭✭✭

    @Khalisto.5780 said:

    @Terrorhuz.4695 said:

    @Khalisto.5780 said:
    Mesmers have aegis

    And you can avoid retalion with incredible stow weapons keybind

    mesmers have what?

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Inspiration

    Isnt there a trait that gives aegis on disable aswell?

  • Bazsi.2734Bazsi.2734 Member ✭✭✭

    Retaliation is a boon that ws designed as a counter to builds with multiple hitting skills. It's the opposite of aegis, which counters builds relying on a few heavy hits. Just don't be an NPC and spam your 20-hit spins and channels on a guardian that popped retal... yes the uptime is high, boon corrupt/removal is a thing though!

    If you're playing a build that delivers pressure through small power-damage packets(and lack boonremoval) retaliation was designed to counter you. Get over it and fight something else, something you might actually defeat.

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tharan.9085 said:
    Isnt there a trait that gives aegis on disable aswell?

    Nah, that trait converts 2 damaging conditions into boons.

    As a guard main, you apply burning one way or the other so they get burn->aegis almost always lol.

  • Tharan.9085Tharan.9085 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @Tharan.9085 said:
    Isnt there a trait that gives aegis on disable aswell?

    Nah, that trait converts 2 damaging conditions into boons.

    As a guard main, you apply burning one way or the other so they get burn->aegis almost always lol.

    Ah yeah, makes sense

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tharan.9085 said:

    @Khalisto.5780 said:

    @Terrorhuz.4695 said:

    @Khalisto.5780 said:
    Mesmers have aegis

    And you can avoid retalion with incredible stow weapons keybind

    mesmers have what?

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Inspiration

    Isnt there a trait that gives aegis on disable aswell?

    it got removed, mesmer can get aegis from
    signet of inspiration -> rng proc every 10s
    chaos storm -> rng proc every ~ 30s dont even remember 36s? + you can get another storm every ~75s if you go chaos
    AA in chaos converts burning into aegis, thats about it.

    edit
    chrono well, every 45s or whatever the cd is these days

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    Retal should work like superspeed(boon duration doesn't work on it and it won't stack duration) but be MUCH more potent while also having MUCH lower uptime.
    Retal skills should basically be "Oh, I nee to stop attacking for 2s or I kill myself"

    The current implementation of retal is passive, non-interactive, and bad gameplay.

    That’s actually interesting. Not sure if ppl will like bursty retal though

  • @Shiyo.3578 said:
    Retal should work like superspeed(boon duration doesn't work on it and it won't stack duration) but be MUCH more potent while also having MUCH lower uptime.
    Retal skills should basically be "Oh, I nee to stop attacking for 2s or I kill myself"

    The current implementation of retal is passive, non-interactive, and bad gameplay.

    so like.. magnetic aura which auto kills blind rangers and deadeyes leading them to then make rage threads about OP tempest QQ. Yes. 10/10 do this right now Anet. It would be an amazing mechanic requiring some sort attention from people.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Make Retal scale to Health :^)

    Retal damage = 30 + 1% of Max Health.

    An average Guardian build maybe has at most 17k health, making it 200 damage.

    If the players using Retal has lower health, it becomes even less effective.

    Also it let's people who stack health as a meme to deal serious chip damage with only Retal even if their other damage sources suck.

    Retal currently being 200 base with 0.75 Power Scaling is kinda weird to me anyway, because it just benefits building offensive stacks on a Boon that gains value with being hit.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    Retal should work like superspeed(boon duration doesn't work on it and it won't stack duration) but be MUCH more potent while also having MUCH lower uptime.
    Retal skills should basically be "Oh, I need to stop attacking for 2s or I kill myself"

    The current implementation of retal is passive, non-interactive, and bad gameplay.

    I would rather they either completely remove it or just neuter the damage in sPvP. Having it work like it does on boss mobs in PvE is an extremely bad idea. It is even bad design in PvE. Cuz if you do not have boon removal you literally cannot attack for the entire duration. This is aegis, with duration, on extreme crack.

    I think the best option is to remove it, and just move the respective class buffs to a different boon.

  • Bazsi.2734Bazsi.2734 Member ✭✭✭

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    Retal should work like superspeed(boon duration doesn't work on it and it won't stack duration) but be MUCH more potent while also having MUCH lower uptime.
    Retal skills should basically be "Oh, I need to stop attacking for 2s or I kill myself"

    The current implementation of retal is passive, non-interactive, and bad gameplay.

    No boon should be that powerful. The current iteration of retal is indeed semi passive, as it should be. It has minimal impact. Having boons like stability and resistance is already problematic, there is no need to elevate more boons to this status.

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 11, 2020

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    Retal should work like superspeed(boon duration doesn't work on it and it won't stack duration) but be MUCH more potent while also having MUCH lower uptime.
    Retal skills should basically be "Oh, I need to stop attacking for 2s or I kill myself"

    The current implementation of retal is passive, non-interactive, and bad gameplay.

    Anet did lower the damage of retaliation multiple times for a reason. Making it even stronger while reducing the duration would increase the problems and not solve them.

    What you suggest is what empathy did in guild wars 1 and this was a hex (a debuff on the target and not a buff on the caster). Such a thing exists as a condition and it is called confusion (also nerfed multiple times because broken). If you add such an effect you create a huge broken mess as this is practically not different to blocking or evading and attacking at the same time. There would be no counter. Way too strong, even gamebreaking.

    Imagine hitting with an aoe skill into a team fight and just one of the 5 players you hit has retaliation that works like you suggest. Now imagine how meta team comps would look like. One player with retal protects his whole team in a team fight only with his presence.

    And now imagine wvw...