How to Calculate Your Healing Effectiveness (Debunking Healing Myths) — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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How to Calculate Your Healing Effectiveness (Debunking Healing Myths)

For a long time I've wanted to make this thread because there is a misconception out there, that you can't calculate your effectiveness as a healer due to a lack of "Healing Meters" or for reasons that deal with Allied HP being full all the time, thus a HPS measurement can't be accurately calculated. Although that statement is somewhat true, it doesn't mean that you can't reliably calculate performance as a healer just as you could with a DPS.

The concept is based on taking the maximum potential of a build or it's individuals abilities. You can then determine how effective you are reaching this potential by calculating the efficacy at which you are playing the build in comparison to the potential. This is useful because one can analyze the advantages and disadvantages of different sigils, runes and trait options by calculating their potentials and then comparing them using this method, as well as determining performance, and finding more efficient and optimal strategy, and even learning how to fight as a solo healer.
~ ~ ~ ~
Calculating the Potential

The potential of a build is each skill you could realistically use on a build, adding up each skills total healing capacity and counting up all the number of times you could have used each skill within some arbitrary amount of time. Since the amount of time is arbitrary, the longer the length of time, the more accurate the value of the potential would be.

You can also make potential calculations with or without quickness and alacrity taken into account. Quickness and Alacrity serve only to give you a larger potential values, or more accurate values in raid settings. Since values for potentials are rather high, you can usually neglect cast times in your calculation unless they are of statistically significant length. So a skill with a 1 second cast time and a 4 second cooldown should be treated as having a 5 second cooldown. Skills with a 1 second cast time and a 0 second cooldown should be treated as a skill with a 1 second cooldown, and skills with a 1/4 cast time and a 25 second cooldown should be treated as a skill with 25 second cooldown. Those values will of course vary with Alacrity and quickness, and if you aim to get the min-max truest value possible, you would take exact cast times and cooldowns at the cost of making longer and more complicated calculations.

I main a Tempest in Strike Missions, and so below is an example of taking the potential healing calculation for a Tempest Healer in a 10 man squad, using the build below as the basis for the calculation
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PGQAYlRwcYMsQWJm+XWtaA-zxIYwogvMSsAqOB89gEKbg3ifbWA-e

The first step in calculating the potential here, would be to account for your outgoing heal effectiveness to include it in your calculation. Since the end values are rather large and differences between other numbers are within orders of magnitude, you can estimate this amount without real worry in accurate calculation.

Rune of the Monk -20%
Bountiful Maintence Oil - 15%
Delicious Rice Ball - 10%
Sigil of Transference - 10%
Water Arrow - 20%
Aquamancers Training - 15%
(If using Sigil of Benevolence) -
90%- 102%

For the purposes of a simple calculation I will be using 100% Healing Effectiveness. For the next part of the calculation, we will assume an arbitrary time of a 3 minute (180 second) long engagement, without Quickness or Alacrity.

Potential of Full Heal Tempest Calculation -

Water Arrow

(2040 x 5 Allies) =10,400
10,400 x 180 uses per 180 seconds = 1,836,000 Healing

1,836,000 Healing

Overload Water (with Healing Ripple procs)

1554 x 4 (pulses) = 6,216 x 10(allies) = 62,160
9,330 x 10 (allies)= 46,650
8,486 x 10 (allies)= 84,860
6078 x 5 (allies)= 30,390
224,060 x 8.37 uses per 180 seconds...(round down to 8) = 1,792,480 Healing

1,792,480 Healing

Soothing Mist

(10,908 x 10 allies) = 109,080
109080 x 18 uses per 180 seconds = 1,963,440 Healing

1,963,440 Healing

Wash the Pain Away!

14,410 x 10 (allies) = 144,100
144,100 x 8.37 uses per 180 seconds...(round down to 8) = 1,152,800 Healing

1,152,800 Healing

Evasive Arcana

6390 x 5 (allies) = 31,950
31,950 x 18 uses per 180 seconds = 575,100 Healing

575,100 Healing

Elemental Bastion + Flash Freeze

3164 x 10 (allies) = 31,640
4242 x 10 (allies) = 42,420
74,060 x 7.2 uses per 180 seconds...(round down to 7) = 518,420 Healing

575,100 Healing

Elemental Bastion + Eye of the Storm

3164 x 10 (allies) = 31,640
31,640 x 4.5-9 uses per 180 seconds...(round 4.5 down to 4) = 126,560 - 284,760 Healing

126,560 - 284,760 Healing

Elemental Bastion + Rebound

13,874 x (10 Allies) = 138,740
138,740 x 2.4 uses per 180 seconds...(round 2.4 down to 2) = 277,480 Healing

277,480 Healing

Approximately 8.2 million Healing (Total Healing Potential over the course of a 3 minute engagement)

~ ~ ~ ~
Determining Efficacy

After finding the potential of not only the build as a whole, but of individual skills, you can calculate the efficacy of which you use this build. The Potential is the realistic maximum healing you could ever possibly imagine to do in a fight, which implies that all conditions are ideally met, which also means that during the entire engagement, there will always be Health bars that need replenishing for the exact maximum number that your heals can provide. Realistically this is impossible to achieve, and so this is why it's called the potential. The Efficacy is always a percentage of the total potential, which shows you how close you are to reaching the potential healing of your build.

Efficacy is thus provided by the total amount you healed after a fight, and using that number, you can compare it to your potential as a ratio or percentage. For example, During a Boneskinner clear last week, i had healed for 4.083 million healing over the course of 4 minutes. Because it was a 4 minute engagement my healing potential was around 10.93 million, which means my healing efficacy during this fight was around 37.35% of the potential.

Healing Efficacy is relative based on a number of things. The main information to take away from efficacy, is to determine how to get higher and higher percentages. There are a number of ways to do this, but to list them off...

1) Having a higher healing potential.
2) Healing a group solo
3) Fighting more healing intensive bosses
4) Improving your rotation or instating a Priority Rotation

The first one is based on your build...Is there a configuration of build options that provide a greater potential? This is directly correlated with efficacy and can increase your performance by just increasing the potential your build can heal for.

Healing a group solo and fighting bosses that are healing intensive are ways to push your healing as close to the potential of your build as possible. This can help determine whether you need a build with a higher potential, or if you need to improve your efficacy if you cant get healing anywhere near the potential of your build.

The last one is important. Notice how some skills in the potential calculation vastly out-heal others by several millions. This means that if you were to prioritize some skills over other skills in your rotation, and using said skills more often, you would be healing for significantly more and getting higher efficacy percentages, which means you are more able to heal groups solo and/or fight more healing intensive bosses with less difficulty.
~ ~ ~ ~
Conclusion
I hope this information was helpful for those that want to become better healers. Not only does this method apply to healing, but it can apply to nearly every mechanic in the game, including DPS builds, Boon builds, Strip builds Condi builds...so long as you can measure the mechanic in ARCDPS as a total number, you can measure the potentials and the efficacy to deduce the above information. You can also use this kind of information to further compress functions in a group setting, or streamline jobs to be more efficient (by maximizing potentials)

Comments

  • @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    Approximately 8.2 million Healing (Total Healing Potential over the course of a 3 minute engagement)

    Efficacy is thus provided by the total amount you healed after a fight, and using that number, you can compare it to your potential as a ratio or percentage. For example, During a Boneskinner clear last week, i had healed for 4.083 million healing over the course of 4 minutes. Because it was a 4 minute engagement my healing potential was around 10.93 million, which means my healing efficacy during this fight was around 37.35% of the potential.

    just looked at a 3min run and aura dmg taken per sec was:
    Heavy armor: 2833.82, 2780.79; 2458.44; 2318.4; 2253.09 ; 2092.64
    Medium: 2594.38
    Light: 2400.86; 2268.16
    so 22000.58/s for 9man or 24445.09 if you convert for 10man
    It doesn't seem to be the case but if prot has an effect its +33% as most player were close to 100% uptime: 36704.34
    making it that you shouldn't heal more than 4,400,116.2 (6,606,780.78 if prot affect aura) over 3min if solohealing and no one press 6, get regen, etc.
    so i doubt you'll ever reach 100%, well you can't as you don't take in account that you can't use all skill at same time.

  • JusticeRetroHunter.7684JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 19, 2020

    @Fangoth.4503 said:
    so i doubt you'll ever reach 100%, well you can't as you don't take in account that you can't use all skill at same time.

    You can never ever reach 100% of the potential, you can only get closer and closer efficacy to it. The only way to have 100% is if you are fighting in the most ideal situation imaginable, where everyone is taking enough damage for you to heal through at all times, and also assumes your rotation is perfect, which it can never be because of how skill cast times overlap with cooldowns. So you can never reach the potential, you can only get closer and closer to it.

    just looked at a 3min run and aura dmg taken per sec was:
    Heavy armor: 2833.82, 2780.79; 2458.44; 2318.4; 2253.09 ; 2092.64
    Medium: 2594.38
    Light: 2400.86; 2268.16
    so 22000.58/s for 9man or 24445.09 if you convert for 10man
    It doesn't seem to be the case but if prot has an effect its +33% as most player were close to 100% uptime: 36704.34
    making it that you shouldn't heal more than 4,400,116.2 (6,606,780.78 if prot affect aura) over 3min if solohealing and no one press 6, get regen, etc.

    Not really sure what this is showing. You mind explaining what your numbers mean because they aren't defined properly here...is 36704 damage or is that healing? Is that per second? Are you using the same build with the same potential calculation? If you are taking damage received as a parameter, then that damage reduction already includes protection and auras because the number is pumped into your combat logs after its been calculated, you wouldn't add those on afterword's.

    Also the amount of damage a boss does to you and your party is already in the total number of healing you, and every other healer in your party did at the end of a fight in those 3 minutes, but its definitely not the maximum damage, and you can't derive the maximum amount you can heal from that. Calculating the maximum healing on a particular boss based on their damage to your party is a different kind of calculation...Because you can technically have bosses that do 0 damage with a potential damage calculation of of several millions...and this depends on if people know mechanics or not, or if people are taking the damage or not. This is why rather than basing the calculation off the opposing monster dealing damage, the calculation is based on how much a build can heal within some arbitrary amount of time, no matter how much damage is being dealt.

    Please be a bit more clear with what you are calculating so I can understand this part of the comment better thanks.

  • @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Fangoth.4503 said:
    just looked at a 3min run and aura dmg taken per sec was:
    Heavy armor: 2833.82, 2780.79; 2458.44; 2318.4; 2253.09 ; 2092.64
    Medium: 2594.38
    Light: 2400.86; 2268.16
    so 22000.58/s for 9man or 24445.09 if you convert for 10man
    It doesn't seem to be the case but if prot has an effect its +33% as most player were close to 100% uptime: 36704.34
    making it that you shouldn't heal more than 4,400,116.2 (6,606,780.78 if prot affect aura) over 3min if solohealing and no one press 6, get regen, etc.

    Not really sure what this is showing. You mind explaining what your numbers mean because they aren't defined properly here...is 36704 damage or is that healing? Is that per second?

    its damage taken per second at boss skinner and you cannot heal more than your team looses. if your group looses 4,400,116.2 over the 3 minutes you cannot heal more than 4,400,116.2

  • JusticeRetroHunter.7684JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 19, 2020

    @Fangoth.4503 said:
    its damage taken per second at boss skinner and you cannot heal more than your team looses. if your group looses 4,400,116.2 over the 3 minutes you cannot heal more than 4,400,116.2

    This statement is true. However Boneskinner's maximum damage output in 3 minutes isn't capped out at 4.4 million. The maximum damage Boneskinner or any boss can do in a set time frame is based on how much damage your team is actually taking from the boss. Like i mentioned before, there are situations in which you can take 0 damage from boneskinner if you know all mechanics and know how to not take the damage, and thus your healing would also be 0. This is why taking the damage that's done isn't the right calculation for your healing effectiveness.

    In another example, If you have a Healing Potential of 8 million in 3 minutes, and the boss is able to do 5 million damage in 3 minutes, than you will only be able to heal maximum for 5 million in those three minutes. But if the boss is able to do 10 million damage in 3 minutes, than you will heal for only a maximum of 8 million in those 3 minutes. The variable here is the boss, and the constant is the healing potential, and that's why the healing potential (and it's efficacy) is the right calculation for finding out your healing effectiveness in a fight.

  • The way Kitty's been doing it when crafting heal support builds is calculating avg. healing per ally per second from each skill ( (base healing + healing power x multiplier) x total outgoing heals % ÷ realistic time between casts (cast time+cooldown or time you use it on as part of rota), values from wiki and also taking trait-related variation into account) and then summing them up to a total average heals per second for pretty close estimation of healing potential. Kitty also makes notes of burst heals and general healing floor to get an idea of how well it fits certain bosses based on knowledge about the bosses and "damage taken" data from logs (converted into incoming dps per squadie) and 10-target heals are counted as double their value to get valid comparison against most heal skills (at the cost of less accurate estimation of build's realistic viability as 5-target healer if a healer relies most on 10-target heals, read: tempest and heal scourge).

    When Kitty last did it a year ago, the numbers were something like this (potential healing per squadie) and they've hardly changed at all in PvE since then :
    Heal/boon Engineer 7200
    Heal Scrapper 6800
    Heal/boon Renegade 6000-6500
    Heal Frostbow Tempest 5500
    Heal Staff Tempest 5000
    Heal Herald 4500
    Heal Warhorn Tempest (aka. Auramancer) with Frost Bow 4000
    Heal Firebrand 3200 (Excl. blocked damage due to huge variation but increases heal potential vastly if blocking correct attacks)
    Heal 10-Mightbot Scourge 2800 (Incl. Barriers which count as proactive heals that usually have very little waste compared to reactive/rotation-bound heals)
    Heal GotL Druid with normal rotation 2800
    Heal 10-Quickness Chronomancer 2500
    Heal Mightbot Deadeye 2300
    Heal Shout Warrior 2000-2250 (at condi-heavy bosses)

    To give some perspective, average raid boss does about 800-1,500 damage per second (which is why most classes can soloheal less damage-intensive bosses if the healer knows their stuff) and Boneskinner, the most damage intensive boss by good margin in popular no torch-strat, does 2500-3000 damage per second. You usually want at least 10-20% margin if incoming damage bursts at all and that's probably enough to show why average druid is bad choice for Boneskinner despite everyone wanting one (toss a coin to your soulbeast...). Though Kitty can heal through it as 2nd healer with only warhorn equipped but even then she's so kitten greedy mightbot that she outheals most druids by at least 50-100% so that's a moot point. If people want real carry heals, they better bring an engifriend who's watched Kitty's vids. Though the gyro rubs are so cold, Kitty's heard. Not to mention that engi has a certain ress utility that's more clutch than scourge resses in some cases. And dps engi can bring it with AED to cheese through 1-hit squad downed mechs like CA's clap.

    It's Kitty. The young lady who recorded videos playing various (non-)metabuilds. Raid/fractal videos at youtube.com/LadyKitty, Kittymarks test results at youtube.com/Kittymarks and tinyurl.com/Kittymarks. Not active anymore.

  • JusticeRetroHunter.7684JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 21, 2020

    @LadyKitty.6120 said:
    The way Kitty's been doing it when crafting heal support builds is calculating avg. healing per ally per second from each skill ( (base healing + healing power x multiplier) x total outgoing heals % ÷ realistic time between casts (cast time+cooldown or time you use it on as part of rota), values from wiki and also taking trait-related variation into account) and then summing them up to a total average heals per second for pretty close estimation of healing potential. Kitty also makes notes of burst heals and general healing floor to get an idea of how well it fits certain bosses based on knowledge about the bosses and "damage taken" data from logs (converted into incoming dps per squadie) and 10-target heals are counted as double their value to get valid comparison against most heal skills (at the cost of less accurate estimation of build's realistic viability as 5-target healer if a healer relies most on 10-target heals, read: tempest and heal scourge).

    When Kitty last did it a year ago, the numbers were something like this (potential healing per squadie) and they've hardly changed at all in PvE since then :
    Heal/boon Engineer 7200
    Heal Scrapper 6800
    Heal/boon Renegade 6000-6500
    Heal Frostbow Tempest 5500
    Heal Staff Tempest 5000
    Heal Herald 4500
    Heal Warhorn Tempest (aka. Auramancer) with Frost Bow 4000
    Heal Firebrand 3200 (Excl. blocked damage due to huge variation but increases heal potential vastly if blocking correct attacks)
    Heal 10-Mightbot Scourge 2800 (Incl. Barriers which count as proactive heals that usually have very little waste compared to reactive/rotation-bound heals)
    Heal GotL Druid with normal rotation 2800
    Heal 10-Quickness Chronomancer 2500
    Heal Mightbot Deadeye 2300
    Heal Shout Warrior 2000-2250 (at condi-heavy bosses)

    Hi Kitty.

    I'd invite you to do these calculations again with the above methodology in the original post in mind. Your method seems very much similar, but it might not be rigorous or exact enough. Only reason I say this is by looking at your example of Heal Frostbow Tempests 5.5k heal per second (which is what i currently main), and this number of 5,500 hps is just...way too low, and less then what I've personally experience on a day to day basis. Now you could work backwards a little, in order to show what the potential heal is based on the numbers you've provided in comparison to the potential...

    Heal Frostbow Tempest 5500

    5500/second x 180seconds (a 3 minute engagement) = 990,000 per 3 minute engagement. (If this is true, that's a 12% efficacy when compared to the potential of 8.2 million healing)

    Now, I'm not sure what the build you used for this calculation was, or how the calculation was done, or what factors were included or excluded. I would suggest perhaps maybe not for tempest, but for whatever healer you main (Heal Scrapper sounds fun) to do the calculation laid out in the original post, we can weed out subjective measurements and use objective values. If you could also provide the build you use for calculation as well, we could both calculate it together and corroborate our findings.

  • Alex.9106Alex.9106 Member ✭✭
    edited November 21, 2020

    JusticeRetroHunter you are talking about different numbers than Kitty,
    Kitty is talking about heal per person while you are talking about total heal for the whole squad, so you need to multiply your number of 990,000 that you got for Kitty with 10 and you get a number of 9,900,000 total heal.

  • @Alex.9106 said:
    JusticeRetroHunter you are talking about different numbers than Kitty,
    Kitty is talking about heal per person while you are talking about total heal for the whole squad, so you need to multiply your number of 990,000 that you got for Kitty with 10 and you get a number of 9,900,000 total heal.

    ohhhh alright thanks for saying that I was totally thrown off by the difference in numbers. I didn't see that she specified that in her post. Although 9.9 million in 3 minutes isn't possible either, so i still think there's something going on with these numbers...my guess is that maybe it has quickness and alacrity taken into account?...or just some variables that we've yet to agree on. The idea is that the calculations should be lining up more or less and not be so vastly different.

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @LadyKitty.6120 said:
    druid is bad choice for Boneskinner despite everyone wanting one (toss a coin to your soulbeast...).

    Druid has more heal than fb and scrapper from my testing. I got 13k hps with gotl. 17k+ is possible with lingering light. Only selfstats work with healing so im curious what other builds could achieve.
    You show a potential 35k hps for engi and i never saw that on bs.

  • JusticeRetroHunter.7684JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 22, 2020

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @LadyKitty.6120 said:
    druid is bad choice for Boneskinner despite everyone wanting one (toss a coin to your soulbeast...).

    Druid has more heal than fb and scrapper from my testing. I got 13k hps with gotl. 17k+ is possible with lingering light. Only selfstats work with healing so im curious what other builds could achieve.
    You show a potential 35k hps for engi and i never saw that on bs.

    I did a rough estimate calculation with Heal Scrapper, and the potential to heal is there, but i agree in that I do not think it's as strong as Kitty points out. My calculation was very quick and back of the envelop so I'm gonna spend some more time on it make sure everything is right... but the conclusion here is that Engineer has a lower potential than Frostbow Tempest and thus has less long term sustain, but it has a nice way to produce concurrent healing, which gives it more inflated HPS to produce higher healing in certain time frames, by using long duration fields.

    This rough calculation is based on one of Kitty's video's i found online where the engagement was 2 minutes and 18 seconds long. The calculation at first was with 100% Healing Effectivness, which i know can't be reached on a Scrapper (it's more like 60%) so numbers that you see in the spoiler tags are mostly higher than their final numbers, where i put in 60%. Also, Quickness was applied to Medblaster where it actually matters, but a more consistent calculation would exclude quickness and alacrity for all abilities in order to weigh it equally with other classes, and one could simply make a calculation later that adds quickness and alacrity. Again i will go back to make a more consistent calculation in order to have it be on equal footing with every class just so people can compare it if they want to.
    ~ ~ ~ ~
    Calculation
    Now basically, 1 mechanic on the build makes up over 60% of it's healing and the other mechanics make the other 40%, by margins of several millions. Those would be -

    MedBlaster

    assuming 9 boons for entire fight on all allies (no quickness, no alacrity)...

    base = 370 per pulse (before healing effectivness)
    Healing for each boon = 268 per pulse (before healing effectivness)
    370+268 = 638 per pulse.

    638 x 3 = 1913 (x100% healing effectivness) = 3,826
    3,826 x 5 allies = 19,132 per cast

    19,132 x 144 uses in 3 minutes = 2,755,008
    19,132 x 110 uses in 2m18s = 2,112,172

    this calculation was made without Quickness and Alacrity, with Quickness those numbers would be doubled...and with an accurate healing effectiveness which is around more like 50/60% instead of 100%, it would be more like 3.7 million healing in 3 minutes from just medblaster.

    The other mechanic would be the combination of Medical Dispersion Field and Compounding Chemicals, which would vary based on how many boons were actually applied to you during a fight. I used some numbers as a reference from one of Kitty's videos, which is the amount of boons applied during a fight that took 2m and 18s, and then just figured it out and transposed that number for a 3 minute fight to keep calculations consistent.

    Medical Dispersion Field + Compounding Chemicals

    3,308 in 2m18s minutes (138seconds)

    71 healing per boon granted to self
    medical disperation = 71 healing to 5 allies

    So, everytime a boon is granted to you (in this case 3,308 boons
    were granted to you) you heal 5 allies for 71 healing for a total of
    1,174,340 in the course of a 2m18s fight. This number of course will
    differ based on how many boons are applied to you in a fight in the same
    time frame.

    Assuming boons were applied at the same rate for a 3 minute engagement =
    1,531,747 Healing.

    Again on this calculation i used 100% Healing Effectiveness, when in reality it's more like 50/60% maximum, so a more realistic number is 919,048 Healing in 3 minutes.

    The rest of the abilities on Scrapper are near negligible in comparison to Med-Blaster, that it appears that it is almost not even worth using any other skills other than medblaster. And these were calculated with 100% healing effectiveness (for simplicity sake) so the numbers give or take will be less than what's shown (of course quickness and Alacrity would probably make up for the 40% loss in healing effectiveness. Updated the the numbers below to reflect 60% healing effectivness, and added additional abilities.

    Bandage Self
    618,880 = 3m00s (60%Healing Effectivness)
    SuperElixer
    350,676 = 3m00s (60%Healing Effectivness)
    Bandage Blast
    303,424 = 3m00s (60%Healing Effectivness)
    Vital Burst
    134298 = 3m00s (60%Healing Effectivness)
    Elixer Shell
    120600 = 3m00s (60%Healing Effectivness)

    The only thing I've yet to figure out is Regeneration on this build, but i can assume that if engineer were to be able to perma upkeep regeneration on 10 people, with 60% Healing Effectiveness it is maxed out at 669600 Healing

    Regeneration
    669600 = 3m00s
    ~ ~ ~ ~

    Conclusion
    So if we were to add up all those numbers, without quickness and alacrity, the potential seems to be around 5.2 million...with quickness for Medblaster, that number goes up to 6.2 million. Again, I'd like to do a more consistent calculation so that we can compare it under the same conditions as other builds so that we can have valid comparisons (again this is rough back of the envelop calculation), but essentially you will at least have 1/2 uptime with quickness on a scrapper build and so it's valid to account for it when making a calculation for things like Medblaster which are greatly effected by it. So anywhere between 5.2 million and 6.2 million would be the realistic potential for this build.

    This leads to the next point, which is that Scrapper according to the potential has less Healing Potential as a Frostbow Heal Tempest. Now all builds have their pros and cons, and i think Scrapper has it's place for stacking up simultaneous healing via long duration pulsing heal fields (which can give you a more inflated HPS during bursts) but over longer durations, it will not out heal a Frostbow heal Tempest.

    Lastly, this thread isn't really meant to compare other classes and builds really... it's meant to show how effective one is using their build in an encounter. Based on the calculation, One could simply use Med Blaster the entire time and see "pretty" good results. One would weigh in a priority rotation, whether it's worth not using 2 applications of a medblaster in order to use Elixer Shell or Vital Burst etc...

    Anyway, i will get back to this thread with a more precise and consistent calculation so that there can be no arguments about it. If anyone would like to go head and do calculations using the method to corroborate our findings (It's best to find numbers that agree with each other) than we can be certain about whether anyone has made mistakes or not.

  • @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @LadyKitty.6120 said:
    druid is bad choice for Boneskinner despite everyone wanting one (toss a coin to your soulbeast...).

    Druid has more heal than fb and scrapper from my testing. I got 13k hps with gotl. 17k+ is possible with lingering light. Only selfstats work with healing so im curious what other builds could achieve.
    You show a potential 35k hps for engi and i never saw that on bs.

    I did a rough estimate calculation with Heal Scrapper, and the potential to heal is there, but i agree in that I do not think it's as strong as Kitty points out. My calculation was very quick and back of the envelop so I'm gonna spend some more time on it make sure everything is right... but the conclusion here is that Engineer has a lower potential than Frostbow Tempest and thus has less long term sustain, but it has a nice way to produce concurrent healing, which gives it more inflated HPS to produce higher healing in certain time frames, by using long duration fields.

    This rough calculation is based on one of Kitty's video's i found online where the engagement was 2 minutes and 18 seconds long. The calculation at first was with 100% Healing Effectivness, which i know can't be reached on a Scrapper (it's more like 60%) so numbers that you see in the spoiler tags are mostly higher than their final numbers, where i put in 60%. Also, Quickness was applied to Medblaster where it actually matters, but a more consistent calculation would exclude quickness and alacrity for all abilities in order to weigh it equally with other classes, and one could simply make a calculation later that adds quickness and alacrity. Again i will go back to make a more consistent calculation in order to have it be on equal footing with every class just so people can compare it if they want to.
    ~ ~ ~ ~
    Calculation
    Now basically, 1 mechanic on the build makes up over 60% of it's healing and the other mechanics make the other 40%, by margins of several millions. Those would be -

    MedBlaster

    assuming 9 boons for entire fight on all allies (no quickness, no alacrity)...

    base = 370 per pulse (before healing effectivness)
    Healing for each boon = 268 per pulse (before healing effectivness)
    370+268 = 638 per pulse.

    638 x 3 = 1913 (x100% healing effectivness) = 3,826
    3,826 x 5 allies = 19,132 per cast

    19,132 x 144 uses in 3 minutes = 2,755,008
    19,132 x 110 uses in 2m18s = 2,112,172

    this calculation was made without Quickness and Alacrity, with Quickness those numbers would be doubled...and with an accurate healing effectiveness which is around more like 50/60% instead of 100%, it would be more like 3.7 million healing in 3 minutes from just medblaster.

    The other mechanic would be the combination of Medical Dispersion Field and Compounding Chemicals, which would vary based on how many boons were actually applied to you during a fight. I used some numbers as a reference from one of Kitty's videos, which is the amount of boons applied during a fight that took 2m and 18s, and then just figured it out and transposed that number for a 3 minute fight to keep calculations consistent.

    Medical Dispersion Field + Compounding Chemicals

    3,308 in 2m18s minutes (138seconds)

    71 healing per boon granted to self
    medical disperation = 71 healing to 5 allies

    So, everytime a boon is granted to you (in this case 3,308 boons
    were granted to you) you heal 5 allies for 71 healing for a total of
    1,174,340 in the course of a 2m18s fight. This number of course will
    differ based on how many boons are applied to you in a fight in the same
    time frame.

    Assuming boons were applied at the same rate for a 3 minute engagement =
    1,531,747 Healing.

    Again on this calculation i used 100% Healing Effectiveness, when in reality it's more like 50/60% maximum, so a more realistic number is 919,048 Healing in 3 minutes.

    The rest of the abilities on Scrapper are near negligible in comparison to Med-Blaster, that it appears that it is almost not even worth using any other skills other than medblaster. And these were calculated with 100% healing effectiveness (for simplicity sake) so the numbers give or take will be less than what's shown (of course quickness and Alacrity would probably make up for the 40% loss in healing effectiveness. Updated the the numbers below to reflect 60% healing effectivness, and added additional abilities.

    Bandage Self
    618,880 = 3m00s (60%Healing Effectivness)
    SuperElixer
    350,676 = 3m00s (60%Healing Effectivness)
    Bandage Blast
    303,424 = 3m00s (60%Healing Effectivness)
    Vital Burst
    134298 = 3m00s (60%Healing Effectivness)
    Elixer Shell
    120600 = 3m00s (60%Healing Effectivness)

    The only thing I've yet to figure out is Regeneration on this build, but i can assume that if engineer were to be able to perma upkeep regeneration on 10 people, with 60% Healing Effectiveness it is maxed out at 669600 Healing

    Regeneration
    669600 = 3m00s
    ~ ~ ~ ~

    Conclusion
    So if we were to add up all those numbers, without quickness and alacrity, the potential seems to be around 5.2 million...with quickness for Medblaster, that number goes up to 6.2 million. Again, I'd like to do a more consistent calculation so that we can compare it under the same conditions as other builds so that we can have valid comparisons (again this is rough back of the envelop calculation), but essentially you will at least have 1/2 uptime with quickness on a scrapper build and so it's valid to account for it when making a calculation for things like Medblaster which are greatly effected by it. So anywhere between 5.2 million and 6.2 million would be the realistic potential for this build.

    This leads to the next point, which is that Scrapper according to the potential has less Healing Potential as a Frostbow Heal Tempest. Now all builds have their pros and cons, and i think Scrapper has it's place for stacking up simultaneous healing via long duration pulsing heal fields (which can give you a more inflated HPS during bursts) but over longer durations, it will not out heal a Frostbow heal Tempest.

    Lastly, this thread isn't really meant to compare other classes and builds really... it's meant to show how effective one is using their build in an encounter. Based on the calculation, One could simply use Med Blaster the entire time and see "pretty" good results. One would weigh in a priority rotation, whether it's worth not using 2 applications of a medblaster in order to use Elixer Shell or Vital Burst etc...

    Anyway, i will get back to this thread with a more precise and consistent calculation so that there can be no arguments about it. If anyone would like to go head and do calculations using the method to corroborate our findings (It's best to find numbers that agree with each other) than we can be certain about whether anyone has made mistakes or not.

    Just a tiny note: if you do math about something in squad content, ALWAYS make sure to also include numbers WITH quickness and alacrity. And a big difference is that your builds seem to be full magis while Kitty's are always at least partly harrier since in real situation (pretty much always 80%+ BD), healer's job isn't just healing but also bringing at least basic boons like might, fury, quickness and alacrity while at it if class allows it.
    Your builds seem to be built as pure healers which have 0 value for most squads as that kind of heal output isn't required in ANY situation unless you're trying to solo heal something with super-high damage pressure and if the pressure ever gets that bad, at least in raids the situation is so FUBAR with failed mechs that it's a wipe regardless of healing power. Since you mentioned 10-target heals, this thread isn't about feactals either, where EVERYONE wants a healbrand. Is this all math for Boneskinner as that'd be the only boss your math would have any actual realistic relevance to and even then, that's only if squad doesn't know their stuff.
    In all honesty, if you do squad math without quickness+alac and using full magi's, there's no gamemode it'd be really relevant at in 95%+ of cases. Even WvW uses heal tempest as boonbot.

    It's Kitty. The young lady who recorded videos playing various (non-)metabuilds. Raid/fractal videos at youtube.com/LadyKitty, Kittymarks test results at youtube.com/Kittymarks and tinyurl.com/Kittymarks. Not active anymore.

  • JusticeRetroHunter.7684JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 27, 2020

    @LadyKitty.6120 said:

    And a big difference is that your builds seem to be full magis while Kitty's are always at least partly harrier since in real situation (pretty much always 80%+ BD), healer's job isn't just healing but also bringing at least basic boons like might, fury, quickness and alacrity while at it if class allows it.

    Sure but you can imagine that, if you need 2 healers to heal a squad in one composition, and only 1 healer to healer in another composition, that difference is hedged by adding another person who might specialize in more damage and can supply those boons that you lack anyway.

    But, this has nothing to do with those kinds of things. This is just a method to calculate how effectively you are healing with a build.

    In all honesty, if you do squad math without quickness+alac and using full magi's, there's no gamemode it'd be really relevant at in 95%+ of cases.

    Like I said before, you can go and do the appropriate calculation for quickness and alacrity once you've figured out the base potential. It's actually misleading to include numbers that don't exist on the build itself, since it's not guaranteed you could have quickness or alacrity. For example, you might be trying to heal in a meta event, where the distribution of builds and boons is completely uncertain, and one would like to know their healing potential there. This will calculate without any outside sources what that potential is, in all situations...after which you can then make a calculation that will give you what the potential is for particular situations.

    And this thread is about healing, finding out your healing effectiveness in a fight and how to measure it...not about comparing classes and which classes are better in the game. I get that you got kind of mad that I said your scrapper build has 6 million healing potential...but don't get mad at me, this is just how math works. Like you just said, your scrapper brings additional things to the table that tempest does not, like boon application (in this case might), and you can even calculate how effectively you do that as well using this method of weighing potentials to their efficacy at which one uses them. I might even find in the frost-bow heal tempest setup, that I can move abilities around to provide boons or some other secondary utility function, since I know exactly where in my build is doing what, and can swap things on the fly because I'm aware of what's actually contributing the most to the builds main function. Likewise with scrapper, you can probably swap every utility on your bar to something else because all your utilities contribute less than 5-7% to your total healing...thus opening up options to do other things on the build...

    Again this thread isn't about getting mad or comparing whose stick is bigger. This is about how to measure something, and then learn something new from being able to measure something.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 27, 2020

    Not sure what this theory is supposed to achieve or this topic.

    First off, there are heal tempest builds which provide boons (might, fury, regeneration and protection usually) and which see use in actual content. It would make sense to use actual builds instead of theoretical.

    Second, most players don't require a theoretical healing output, but a practical one based on actual gearing, complexity of rotation and personal ability to play it as well as how good access is to healing skills. In which case the damage golem has different aura settings to train with, arcdps has a self stats healing output and boon and utility availability can be factored in via the build.

    This thread kind of reminds me of a strike mission I had a few months ago where one of the players mentioned he could go heal firebrand (funny enough for Boneskinner) but would not provide any boons. Which made me raise an eyebrow given pure healers, as mentioned by Kitty, are pretty much useless in this game ( not as much useless, but outclasses and outperformed in usefulness by hybrid healers which also provide boons). I didn't feel like getting into an argument with the player, wasn't my squad, so I dropped it. I did reply to his snarky question if I lack experience with Healfirebrand that I usually play one in fractal CMs and in all my time of over 3k LI/LD in raids, I have never seen someone play a pure healer (which in retrospect was a lie, I remember having someone join as heal renegade for a swamp fractal once. The moment he mentioned to the PUG group that he was pure healer without alacrity, he was removed instantly. I didn't even vote yes, that's how fast the other 3 players had kicked him. I just though to myself: "poor guy, who knows who made him create that build").

  • JusticeRetroHunter.7684JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 27, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Not sure what this theory is supposed to achieve or this topic.

    It's not a theory...its a mathematical exercise. You are comparing how much is actually possible to how much you are actually doing. it's not that complicated.

    Second, most players don't require a theoretical healing output, but a practical one based on actual gearing, complexity of rotation and personal ability to play it as well as how good access is to healing skills. In which case the damage golem has different aura settings to train with, arcdps has a self stats healing output and boon and utility availability can be factored in via the build.

    Actually these aren't practical. The above is basically shooting in the dark and making guesses, using process of elimination.

    This thread kind of reminds me of a strike mission I had a few months ago where one of the players mentioned he could go heal firebrand (funny enough for Boneskinner) but would not provide any boons. Which made me raise an eyebrow given pure healers, as mentioned by Kitty, are pretty much useless in this game ( not as much useless, but outclasses and outperformed in usefulness by hybrid healers which also provide boons). I didn't feel like getting into an argument with the player, wasn't my squad, so I dropped it. I did reply to his snarky question if I lack experience with Healfirebrand that I usually play one in fractal CMs and in all my time of over 3k LI/LD in raids, I have never seen someone play a pure healer (which in retrospect was a lie, I remember having someone join as heal renegade for a swamp fractal once. The moment he mentioned to the PUG group that he was pure healer without alacrity, he was removed instantly. I didn't even vote yes, that's how fast the other 3 players had kicked him. I just though to myself: "poor guy, who knows who made him create that build").

    And this is exactly why I made this thread...for behavior like this. players that don't even understand how to math in order to assess performance, and instead kick players indiscriminately for reasons based on what is essentially guess work. It's actually insulting that players with 3k LI think they know how to raid. I've been solo-healing in raids for decades... the hardest bosses in WoW and in GW... You think I look on metabattle or snowcrows to get my information and just copy someone else without knowing why?

    Here's something for you and your 3k LI to think about. How would you access the performance of Bulwark Gyro? How would you quantify or justify it's usage on the heal scrapper build?

    Answer:

    Bulwark Gyro, which is basically like protection has a healing potential maximum 630,000 healing (in 3 minutes).

    Course one wouldn't know because one hasn't bothered to mathematically parse skills in order to make valid comparisons. But I'll tell you how one can figure that out. With an average health of 14,000, you will at anytime while using bulwark gyro take a maximum of 14000 damage per second before dying, which means each player effected by bulwark gyro is being hit for around 9,000 damage each second. If you are redirecting 14000 damage every second then in 5 seconds you would have redirected 70,000 damage, and over the course of 3 minutes, you would have redirected 630,000 damage.

    So think about the above information for a moment. You probably haven't the slightest idea how to even begin to look at a skill like bulwark gyro to determine whether you want to use it for a fight or not, nor a way to determine how useful of a skill it actually is. Do you know how to increase the potential healing of bulwark gyro? Nope of course you don't...but if one knew how to do this kind of analysis (using math) the answer is quite simple...increase your health pool and your healing per second. Double the health pool, means you can redirect twice the number of potential damage (from 9000 up to 18000) before dying. and make sure you can output maximum of 28,000 healing per second in order to survive the redirection. You can take this logic even further when you question how bulwark reduces damage. is the reduction effected by protection? by frost aura? by other damage reduction modifiers like toughness? Does redirection of damage even occur at all or do boss mechanics ignore it? This can all be factored in when discussing how useful it makes bulwark gyro for fights, and can effectively quadruple the effectiveness of bulwark gyro or reduce it to nothing and that's how you make educated decisions about skills you take into fights... not by looking snow crow videos trying to copy what they do without knowing why your doing it.

    Since the above is the potential, it just shows you the procedure in which you would apply certain logic for taking such a skill with you to an encounter... you should know that, if your build can't heal 28,000 healing per second, that you will die if you use bulwark gyro in a fight where your group is taking 18000 damage per second, and you use this kind of information to make decisions about how often you even utilize the potential of Bulwark Gyro, or to adjust your build accordingly so that you can justify using bulwark gyro and getting the maximum potential out of it for the lowest opportunity cost.

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 27, 2020

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    And this is exactly why I made this thread...for behavior like this. players that don't even understand how to math in order to assess performance, and instead kick players indiscriminately for reasons based on what is essentially guess work. It's actually insulting that players with 3k LI think they know how to raid. I've been solo-healing in raids for decades... the hardest bosses in WoW and in GW... You think I look on metabattle or snowcrows to get my information and just copy someone else without knowing why?

    And why arent you including quickness/alacrity then? Builds scale differently with it. Firebrand gets almost nothing from quickness while scrapper gains a lot. You could use a format like Xyonons? engi spreadsheet with time spend healing/time spend casting. and factoring cd in aswell. Raw healing is still useless in this game. There are only 2 strike bosses where you even need high healing power.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 27, 2020

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Not sure what this theory is supposed to achieve or this topic.

    It's not a theory...its a mathematical exercise. You are comparing how much is actually possible to how much you are actually doing. it's not that complicated.

    No, it is not that complicated. Hence why I was wondering why you assumed that years into this games adoption of healers stating the obvious was necessary.

    So again, who is this aimed at? You are assuming that advanced players do not already do this while also tacking their assumption to the test. While players who do not will hardly draw any value from theoretical discussions (even less based on not actually run builds).

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Second, most players don't require a theoretical healing output, but a practical one based on actual gearing, complexity of rotation and personal ability to play it as well as how good access is to healing skills. In which case the damage golem has different aura settings to train with, arcdps has a self stats healing output and boon and utility availability can be factored in via the build.

    Actually these aren't practical. The above is basically shooting in the dark and making guesses, using process of elimination.

    Only true if you assume that the builds are not founded in players understanding and knowing how to calculate skills and coefficients. Which is a far stretch to assume I'd say.

    Once you factor in that players might be already looking at coefficients and formulas, those values become results of field testing.

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    This thread kind of reminds me of a strike mission I had a few months ago where one of the players mentioned he could go heal firebrand (funny enough for Boneskinner) but would not provide any boons. Which made me raise an eyebrow given pure healers, as mentioned by Kitty, are pretty much useless in this game ( not as much useless, but outclasses and outperformed in usefulness by hybrid healers which also provide boons). I didn't feel like getting into an argument with the player, wasn't my squad, so I dropped it. I did reply to his snarky question if I lack experience with Healfirebrand that I usually play one in fractal CMs and in all my time of over 3k LI/LD in raids, I have never seen someone play a pure healer (which in retrospect was a lie, I remember having someone join as heal renegade for a swamp fractal once. The moment he mentioned to the PUG group that he was pure healer without alacrity, he was removed instantly. I didn't even vote yes, that's how fast the other 3 players had kicked him. I just though to myself: "poor guy, who knows who made him create that build").

    And this is exactly why I made this thread...for behavior like this. players that don't even understand how to math in order to assess performance, and instead kick players indiscriminately for reasons based on what is essentially guess work. It's actually insulting that players with 3k LI think they know how to raid. I've been solo-healing in raids for decades... the hardest bosses in WoW and in GW... You think I look on metabattle or snowcrows to get my information and just copy someone else without knowing why?

    Here's something for you and your 3k LI to think about. How would you access the performance of Bulwark Gyro? How would you quantify or justify it's usage on the heal scrapper build?

    Let me give you my answer for Bulwark gyro for WvW:
    It's based far more around if I or my group need personal stability provided via the tool-belt skill and the projectile denial rather than the effective barrier provided via Bulwark gyro? Why? Because in 99% of all cases healing output is not the deciding factor between success or failure.

    The same applies to PvE. All healing builds are more than capable of performing the necessary healing. This is rather evident considering the most difficult content is being run with solo healers by now and if it wasn't for boon and utility requirements, some of those encounters would be run with no healer at all.

    The second healer often is used rather as complimentary asset to the primary healer (often druid) based on which utility is most useful in a fight. Epidemic application and barrier from heal scourge, condi removal and heal output of heal tempest, quickness from heal firebrand, etc.

    In almost no scenario is the choice of healer based on heal throughput.

  • JusticeRetroHunter.7684JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 27, 2020

    @Nephalem.8921 said:
    And why arent you including quickness/alacrity then?

    I just explained why already...You can make a quickness and alacrity calculation where you will have quickness and alacrity. But if the build itself doesn't include it, it is mathematically fallacious to include it in a calculation. This is why i don't calculate frost-bow tempest with quickness or alacrity. If i were to weigh it the same with other builds then you would do the same with druid, and the same with scrapper, and the same with whatever builds you want to compare so that you aren't purposefully skewing numbers. I even mention throughout my calculations as footnotes, that skills like Medblaster, benefit highly from quickness and i give you the range at which that ability could potentially heal with quickness on...did you miss that part of my comment or something?

    JusticeRetroHunter.7684
    this calculation was made without Quickness and Alacrity, with Quickness those numbers would be doubled...

    JusticeRetroHunter.7684
    ...but essentially you will at least have 1/2 uptime with quickness on a scrapper build and so it's valid to account for it when making a calculation for things like Medblaster which are greatly effected by it. So anywhere between 5.2 million and 6.2 million would be the realistic potential for this build.

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 27, 2020

    Its interesting to think about this stuff but after playtesting for many years I found pure healers to be ineffective.

    I usually classify a full support as bringing heals, cleanses, boons, and some form of Protection and other group defenses (like Frost Aura), and if possible, CC and Vulnerability stacking for enemies. These are all the roles you can play without having to directly damage enemies, and when I tested it in group settings just the presence of Protection boon alone and cleanse (for high pressure fights like Mai Trin) greatly exceeded all healing multipliers except in a few rare cases like Druid CA where limited uptime make it necessary to achieve higher output.

    For that reason I almost never take those kinds of builds anymore and usually focus on hybridising as much as possible, as the base healing values with ~1k of Healing Power are high enough to overheal most groups combined with their personal healing skills.

    Of course there's variation by class but for the most part I think this tends to hold true.

    Hannah | Daisuki[SUKI] Founder, Ehmry Bay, NA | 22 charas, 16k hours, 28k AP | ♀♥♀
    Mains Mariyuuna/Auramancer(PvE) & Terakura/Healbreaker(WvW) aka Henge of Denravi Silver Invader [SUKI]
    No need to be best, only good and kind.

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Nephalem.8921 said:
    And why arent you including quickness/alacrity then?

    I just explained why already...You can make a quickness and alacrity calculation where you will have quickness and alacrity. But if the build itself doesn't include it, it is mathematically fallacious to include it in a calculation. This is why i don't calculate frost-bow tempest with quickness or alacrity. If i were to weigh it the same with other builds then you would do the same with druid, and the same with scrapper, and the same with whatever builds you want to compare so that you aren't purposefully skewing numbers. I even mention throughout my calculations as footnotes, that skills like Medblaster, benefit highly from quickness and i give you the range at which that ability could potentially heal with quickness on...did you miss that part of my comment or something?

    In a scenario where you wont have quickness or alacrity you would be better of just playing a build that provides those boons. This includes open world pve aswell. Boons are always top priority, heal comes 2nd. Thats even true for other mmos. I would say its mathematically fallacious to not include those boons because you are screwing numbers towards builds or skills that will never be used. Also you always do "real world" checks of simulations. Thats why car manufacturers still do crashtests even with all the simulations available.
    Druid is listed very low with your calculations but it heals a ton on boneskinner while a hfb has very little healing there. Either the calculation is wrong or i am just a very very bad hfb.
    Nobody calculates dps classes with just selfbuffs either. It just makes no sense.

  • JusticeRetroHunter.7684JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 27, 2020

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Nephalem.8921 said:
    And why arent you including quickness/alacrity then?

    I just explained why already...You can make a quickness and alacrity calculation where you will have quickness and alacrity. But if the build itself doesn't include it, it is mathematically fallacious to include it in a calculation. This is why i don't calculate frost-bow tempest with quickness or alacrity. If i were to weigh it the same with other builds then you would do the same with druid, and the same with scrapper, and the same with whatever builds you want to compare so that you aren't purposefully skewing numbers. I even mention throughout my calculations as footnotes, that skills like Medblaster, benefit highly from quickness and i give you the range at which that ability could potentially heal with quickness on...did you miss that part of my comment or something?

    In a scenario where you wont have quickness or alacrity you would be better of just playing a build that provides those boons. This includes open world pve aswell. Boons are always top priority, heal comes 2nd. Thats even true for other mmos. I would say its mathematically fallacious to not include those boons because you are screwing numbers towards builds or skills that will never be used. Also you always do "real world" checks of simulations. Thats why car manufacturers still do crashtests even with all the simulations available.
    Druid is listed very low with your calculations but it heals a ton on boneskinner while a hfb has very little healing there. Either the calculation is wrong or i am just a very very bad hfb.
    Nobody calculates dps classes with just selfbuffs either. It just makes no sense.

    Okay, i don't know why we are even arguing about this in the first place because it really has nothing to do with the exercise.

    A ) If you want to calculate a builds potential with alacrity and quickness, go head...there is nobody here saying that you shouldn't. So long as you are consistent in applying the calculation from one build to another build that's all the matters, so that you are maintaining a consistent comparison between things.

    B ) The purpose of the exercise isn't to compare builds to one another, even though you can do this. The purpose is to calculate the potential of a build, and then compare it to the efficacy to which you are playing that build... you can be a hybrid, you can be a dps you can be whatever you want to be. This exercise is supposed to illustrate how much potential the build has (in this case to heal) and then using an efficacy to see if you are reaching that potential.

    C ) This boon or no boon argument business makes no sense...if you play a build with boons that's cool I never said you can not play a build that gives out boons or other utility?...why is this all of a sudden an argument about boons or whatever? This is about calculating Healing effectiveness without an HPS meter, and in general is an exercise that can tell you more information about healing effectiveness than an HPS meter can.

    D ) If you are playing a hybrid healer with multiple roles as a support, then your healing potential is going to be lower since you are diverting resources from healing, into other utility...Even then for the most part, you can transform those utilities into measurable healing potentials because you can break down almost all utility skills into components of healing, like Bulwark Gyro for example...so the argument that straight healing isn't better than boon supports, or that boon supports aren't better than healing makes no sense, and nobody made that argument to begin with.

  • I'm going to be blunt and just say that this data is pretty useless, you just gave a maths lesson nobody needed. GW2 healing doesn't work this way. I'm going to bet someone insulted tempest healing to motivate you to write this.

  • @Psykewne.3025 said:
    I'm going to be blunt and just say that this data is pretty useless, you just gave a maths lesson nobody needed. GW2 healing doesn't work this way. I'm going to bet someone insulted tempest healing to motivate you to write this.

    Wow toxic much?

    What motivated me to make this thread was me observing how inefficient people were using their builds in WvW...especially when I know they could be doing so much more cause im aware of the potentials of the builds they play.

    What also motivated me a bit was when i asked players in pug squads if they could solo heal bosses. Many said they can't...but i know for a fact that they can but they just don't know how.

    So please enlighten me, how does healing work in gw2.

  • @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Nephalem.8921 said:
    And why arent you including quickness/alacrity then?

    I just explained why already...You can make a quickness and alacrity calculation where you will have quickness and alacrity. But if the build itself doesn't include it, it is mathematically fallacious to include it in a calculation. This is why i don't calculate frost-bow tempest with quickness or alacrity. If i were to weigh it the same with other builds then you would do the same with druid, and the same with scrapper, and the same with whatever builds you want to compare so that you aren't purposefully skewing numbers. I even mention throughout my calculations as footnotes, that skills like Medblaster, benefit highly from quickness and i give you the range at which that ability could potentially heal with quickness on...did you miss that part of my comment or something?

    In a scenario where you wont have quickness or alacrity you would be better of just playing a build that provides those boons. This includes open world pve aswell. Boons are always top priority, heal comes 2nd. Thats even true for other mmos. I would say its mathematically fallacious to not include those boons because you are screwing numbers towards builds or skills that will never be used. Also you always do "real world" checks of simulations. Thats why car manufacturers still do crashtests even with all the simulations available.
    Druid is listed very low with your calculations but it heals a ton on boneskinner while a hfb has very little healing there. Either the calculation is wrong or i am just a very very bad hfb.
    Nobody calculates dps classes with just selfbuffs either. It just makes no sense.

    Okay, i don't know why we are even arguing about this in the first place because it really has nothing to do with the exercise.

    A ) If you want to calculate a builds potential with alacrity and quickness, go head...there is nobody here saying that you shouldn't. So long as you are consistent in applying the calculation from one build to another build that's all the matters, so that you are maintaining a consistent comparison between things.

    Kitty's already provided comparative numbers on that earlier in this thread.

    C ) This boon or no boon argument business makes no sense...if you play a build with boons that's cool I never said you can not play a build that gives out boons or other utility?...why is this all of a sudden an argument about boons or whatever? This is about calculating Healing effectiveness without an HPS meter, and in general is an exercise that can tell you more information about healing effectiveness than an HPS meter can.

    Healing effectiveness is kinda useless info, though and like peoples are mentioning, what's the usefulness of this thread in any actual in-game scenario if you don't use the in-game builds? And also, if you play pure healer instead of boon value, you'll be kicked unless squad really needs a carry (in which case you'll likely be third healer). This very thing is the reason why heal scrappers are virtually non-existent despite of high heal output and utility: they're the worst booners.

    D ) If you are playing a hybrid healer with multiple roles as a support, then your healing potential is going to be lower since you are diverting resources from healing, into other utility...Even then for the most part, you can transform those utilities into measurable healing potentials because you can break down almost all utility skills into components of healing, like Bulwark Gyro for example...so the argument that straight healing isn't better than boon supports, or that boon supports aren't better than healing makes no sense, and nobody made that argument to begin with.

    Again, healers are wanted for boons, not heals. Heals just come as bonus since upping boon duration means a lot worse dps and a second healer works as good failsafe in case primary healer isn't skilled enough/something unfortunate happens to them/they accidentally mistime heals for a moment. There's a reason why HB+druid is the preferred combo for most and that reason has nothing to do with healing output.

    It's Kitty. The young lady who recorded videos playing various (non-)metabuilds. Raid/fractal videos at youtube.com/LadyKitty, Kittymarks test results at youtube.com/Kittymarks and tinyurl.com/Kittymarks. Not active anymore.

  • JusticeRetroHunter.7684JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 29, 2020

    @LadyKitty.6120 said:
    And also, if you play pure healer instead of boon value,

    who ever said this and why do people keep bringing this up? No one is telling anyone here to bring a pure healer over a booner...

    If you don't find the exercise useful than don't use it and continue playing how you play what is so hard about that? You'll just be playing without knowing all information. That's up to you and you are perfectly fine with living in that world than so be it

    This stuff isn't pulled from the vacuum either btw. This is one of the ways people from WoW community use to make Priority rotations. They're calculations are WAY more exact, but it's essentially the same principles. So continue to live in that bubble that's fine. It's just a shame really that's all.

  • Wisty.4135Wisty.4135 Member ✭✭✭

    I am curious as to these calcs - I've run boon auramancer, shoutbreaker, and heal scrapper and of those the healing style seems so wildly different between them. I'd bring auramancer for solohealing stuff like VG or SH (xtra spicy), but scrapper for stuff like Rainbow Road or WvW. Is there a methodology for accounting for the nature of healing (burst, mitigation, over time), or are all of these numbers on theoretical raw values at 100% efficiency?

    Just curious!

  • JusticeRetroHunter.7684JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 1, 2020

    @Wisty.4135 said:
    I am curious as to these calcs - I've run boon auramancer, shoutbreaker, and heal scrapper and of those the healing style seems so wildly different between them. I'd bring auramancer for solohealing stuff like VG or SH (xtra spicy), but scrapper for stuff like Rainbow Road or WvW. Is there a methodology for accounting for the nature of healing (burst, mitigation, over time), or are all of these numbers on theoretical raw values at 100% efficiency?

    Just curious!

    Thanks, I'm glad you are curious, and I took the time to address each point below in sections to answer that question

    The potential is the theoretical maximally efficient value for each individual skill, then just added together to give you a total. Then when you play your build in a fight, you see how much you did and you compare that to the potential value as a percentage. If you have a potential of 100,000 healing, and you did 10,000 healing in a fight, then your healing efficacy in that fight is 10% of the potential. You use that information to analyze the performance, the build and/or the fight in order to make more informed decisions.

    Burst
    Burst is a different kind of thing all together. For example, a boss can do 10,000 damage every 10 seconds in two ways. Either 1000 damage per second, or 10,000 damage in 1 second and do nothing for the remaining 9 seconds. In both situations, a skill that heals for 1000 healing per second will at the end of 10 seconds, heal all 10,000 damage in both scenarios. Likewise, just as an enemy can inflict burst damage on you, the same applies for when you apply burst healing to allies. You can either heal 1000 healing per second, or do 10,000 healing in one second, and do nothing for the remaining 9 seconds. In practice, it's always a combination of both happening in tandem, where a burst will occur followed by pressure, or pressure is followed by a burst, and will always go back and forth between the two, and one of your jobs as the healer is to respond to each situation with the appropriate counter situation so that you and your allies health is always returning to100% as soon as possible so you can deal with the next phase of bursts and pressure.

    So there is probably a specific calculation to figure out burst potentials, but this calculation in the thread is not it. If I were to take a guess (cause I've never really gave much thought to it before), it would be a comparison between the amount that can be healed, versus the time it takes to heal that number. So If you have Skill A B and C, each doing 2000 healing, and it takes 5 seconds total to use them all, then the burst potential would be 6000 over the course of 5 seconds....My first inclination would be that you want the largest number you can attain, in the shortest period of time spent casting the skills in question, and the way you'd analyze that kind of information is by creating different arrangements of sequences that allow you to do the biggest bursts in the shortest time frames.

    Mitigation
    In general nearly all forms of utility with the exception of a few can be broken down into components of damage, or healing. This includes mitigation like Protection, Blocks, Aegis, etc... The way you think about these kinds of utilities is thinking about it as a healing skill that heals before the damage is done, and then you can use that to give you a general idea of how much the potential of those utilities are in comparison with other healing abilities.

    For example, Aegis blocks an attack. Theoretically, the potential "preventative healing" from an aegis is infinite, if it blocks an attack that does an infinite amount of damage. But in order to be more practical, you would use an "average" value that an aegis would block for and then provide a general range for that value to give you an idea of the scope to which that mitigation compares to other healing abilities. The most practical average is to use the amount of damage it would take to otherwise kill you. So if you have 20,000 health, then the potential for Aegis to preventatively heal you is some number between 0 and 20,000. So in this case, 20,000 is the potential, and the average potential would be 10,000.

    You can aim for a more practical potential by taking samples of fights and using that information to find the average amount of damage that occurred in that fight to figure out the average damage you could have mitigated. For example, let's say you took 1k, 5k, 3k, 10k, 2k. You find the average number, and that tells you the average damage of that particular fight, in this example that would be 4,200. If you were using your aegis to maximal efficiency, then this number is the average potential of Aegis in that fight, rather than 10,000. This kind of measurement is useful only for specific fights, while the previous method above is useful in a more general sense for any fight.

    Now I'm not sure if there is a way to calculate the efficacy of damage mitigation, because I'm not sure if ARCDPS has anything to record it. If anyone knows feel free to tell me. But you can use that potential at least as a way to guage how much you can expect to preemptively heal people with blocks and stuff.

    Other Nuances
    Some mechanics simply can not be measured with an equation in the game. I would call these kinds of mechanics "practicalities" in which some things are just more practical to use than other things, for reasons having to do with the design of the skills themselves. Medblaster is a great skill with high healing potential. But it's effective area is essentially a cone, and relies heavily on quickness and boons in order to reach those big juicy numbers. In fights that make you spread out, the effectiveness of a cone shaped heal plummets the efficacy of your healing, and things like this need to be taken into account when comparing abilities. For example, Revenants Staff 1 skill when used with healing orbs has an incredibly high healing potential. But in practice, it's almost impossible to land Revenant staff 1 in WvW, and it's a pain to heal people that are spread out in an engagement on a boss fight...so your healing efficacy of staff 1 plummets.

    Hope all that info helped answer the question.

  • @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Psykewne.3025 said:
    I'm going to be blunt and just say that this data is pretty useless, you just gave a maths lesson nobody needed. GW2 healing doesn't work this way. I'm going to bet someone insulted tempest healing to motivate you to write this.

    Wow toxic much?

    What motivated me to make this thread was me observing how inefficient people were using their builds in WvW...especially when I know they could be doing so much more cause im aware of the potentials of the builds they play.

    What also motivated me a bit was when i asked players in pug squads if they could solo heal bosses. Many said they can't...but i know for a fact that they can but they just don't know how.

    So please enlighten me, how does healing work in gw2.

    Seems like the easy way to disparage an opinion you don't like is to call it toxic, unfortunately what i said was not toxic. You're really trying to force a narrative that is not relevant when it comes to guild wars 2 healing. It's always about the right healing at the right time and the right boons/cleanses at the right time in order to support your team. Throughput is irrelevant because guild wars 2 damage is very rarely a consistent dirge.

    It is all reactionary or preparatory effects. For instance, healing condition damage is simply not as effective as cleansing at the right moment. Aegis negates far more damage than most heals can heal for. Stability can prevent control effects that make you vulnerable to further damage. There is absolutely not point you are standing still just eating damage for an extended 3 minutes without peaks and valleys and effects to interact with.

    It is so easy to start doing complicated mathematics to try to talk down to others but it only obscures the fact that you are ignoring everything that makes guild wars 2 combat unique. If you are standing around pumping about heals trying to make the big numbers then you are simply doing it wrong, it's not efficient at all to play like this. True efficiency in healing is when you know significant damage is not coming in and allowing regen to tick to bring people up rather than using a big heal. True efficiency is doing the healing and support that is necessary and then filling in everything else with damage. Every bit of damage you do also limits the healing you need to do as things die faster.

    The efficiency maths you are doing is about the least relevant stat you could possibly care about in guild wars 2. You are way too defensive to even see it however and you're getting aggressive with anyone with a differing opinion acting like you are the smartest guy in the room, which you clearly are not as you just hand wave and dismiss any evidence that you are incorrect.

  • @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @LadyKitty.6120 said:
    And also, if you play pure healer instead of boon value,

    who ever said this and why do people keep bringing this up? No one is telling anyone here to bring a pure healer over a booner...

    If you don't find the exercise useful than don't use it and continue playing how you play what is so hard about that? You'll just be playing without knowing all information. That's up to you and you are perfectly fine with living in that world than so be it

    This stuff isn't pulled from the vacuum either btw. This is one of the ways people from WoW community use to make Priority rotations. They're calculations are WAY more exact, but it's essentially the same principles. So continue to live in that bubble that's fine. It's just a shame really that's all.

    you shot yourself in the foot there. This is not WoW and healing in guild wars 2 is not like wow, end of comparison

  • JusticeRetroHunter.7684JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 1, 2020

    @Psykewne.3025 said:
    It is all reactionary or preparatory effects. For instance, healing condition damage is simply not as effective as cleansing at the right moment.

    I'll just say this...that you can apply the same methodology of calculation to cleansing just like you could healing effectiveness, because essentially they are the same thing that can be broken down into components of healing. Because of how cleansing works, you can rather than breaking it all down into how much healing cleansing does, you can just optimize the amount of cleansing you can theoretically do in a fight by looking at the potential and efficacy of those cleansing abilities...again using the same procedure.

    Just a personal example. Around the time of the February Mega balance patch I had made a scrapper because my guild wanted me to run one. I had never played an engineer or scrapper before. But after looking at the class for a couple hours and calculating it's cleansing potential, it took me less than an hour to cleanse the most conditions in my squads by nearly 2x/3x margins, and these players are not scrubs. The only way the below picture was even possible, was to look at the potentials of skills, and then using that information figure out which skills were actually important enough to use in a fight, and which ones i should actually keep on cooldown.

    The point is that you think healing is somehow the exclusion to the rule for gw2 mechanics...but in reality all everything actually is in the game, is some form of healing or some form of damage...with the exception of a few mechanics (like stability) which are just mechanics that can't be measured to any reasonable effect.

    Aegis negates far more damage than most heals can heal for.

    This is actually not true. You can read my previous comment for more insight into that. Aegis can be broken down into components of healing just like pretty much anything else, and you can quantify how much negation it does to compare it to other skills. I apply the same method for Bulwark Gyro in terms of damage mitigation and the numbers are all there.

    It is so easy to start doing complicated mathematics

    uhh...dude it's not complicated. Its literally an exercise in addition and subtraction. i actually don't even understand why people are arguing about it...why be so confrontational to very easy to understand math because it might shatter some belief you've held for 5 years about the game which is based on intuition or whatever wooo wooo that someone told you a long time ago?

    If you are standing around pumping about heals trying to make the big numbers then you are simply doing it wrong, it's not efficient at all to play like this.

    You mean how every DPS class does in the game? You can literally replace the word "heals" in this sentence with "damage" and you'd see how silly this sentence sounds as it's a contradiction to the most common behavior in gw2.

    True efficiency is doing the healing and support that is necessary and then filling in everything else with damage. Every bit of damage you do also limits the healing you need to do as things die faster.

    This is mildly true...but your also not thinking hard enough about it. If your group uses 2 druids to get the job of support done...rather than each druid doing 5k dps and a little bit of support, you can have someone go full support so a damage dealer can do 30k dps. You don't lose damage if you are hedging it with someone who specializes in doing damage and someone who specializes in doing only support. This way if there is a situation that actually demands a higher potential for healing, you can actually meet that demand via specialization. not to mention it's actually just easier to play like this...mashing 100 buttons focusing on 10 different sub tasks when you can hard focus on a single task to perfection.

    The efficiency maths you are doing is about the least relevant stat you could possibly care about in guild wars 2. You are way too defensive to even see it however and you're getting aggressive with anyone with a differing opinion acting like you are the smartest guy in the room, which you clearly are not as you just hand wave and dismiss any evidence that you are incorrect.

    I'm actually very open to any and all ideas about many things. In fact every time i lead strike missions, i literally have 0 requirements for pugs to enter the strikes... My LFG message is "Bring whatever you want I don't care." My position here has always been one of exploration of ideas and dispelling false truths...I am a theorycrafter at heart and have been theorycrafting for 15ish years since guild wars 1.

    In my brief time of leading strikes, I've experienced an array of just straight up lies that people are taught and I hear these in some of my pug groups sometimes, because the ones that teach these false truths actually don't do proper theorycraft or essential math in order to understand how the skills in the game actually perform in comparison to one another to make rational decisions about their builds.

    I've had pugs that never even played strikes before, let alone understand their class to do competitive dps... but you know what? We still manage to defeat Boneskinner in one or 2 tries maximum...

    I've been in experienced well comped groups that have wiped more times on Boneskinner on average than my typical pug groups...I know exactly why this happens...it's because people have in a general sense no idea the actual mechanisms going on when it comes to how to make the most efficient use of their class. They are taught a rotation, then they follow this rotation based on memory. But if something happens and rotation is broken all of a sudden? Group wipe...because players panic and have no idea which button to press next...or I just observe players that even though they are playing their class, they are using abilities that are just waste of their potential...so people want to go 4 healer on Boneskinner when it's totally not necessary. I've been in 4 healer Boneskinner groups and people will still full-wipe with 4 healer. what's sad about this is actually not just seeing it happen, it's people not understanding WHY it happens.

  • Ugh. Look I think re-reading the thread, your ego is just in your own way on this one. You obviously think very highly of yourself and you're obviously more than competent at the game and that's fine, but this thread seems less and less like a useful thought piece and more and more like tooting your own horn. I think maybe this topic just isn't aimed at me because I really don't have a problem with my healing performance and there's nothing you've said that is of any use to me.

  • JusticeRetroHunter.7684JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 1, 2020

    @Psykewne.3025 said:
    Ugh. Look I think re-reading the thread, your ego is just in your own way on this one. You obviously think very highly of yourself and you're obviously more than competent at the game and that's fine, but this thread seems less and less like a useful thought piece and more and more like tooting your own horn. I think maybe this topic just isn't aimed at me because I really don't have a problem with my healing performance and there's nothing you've said that is of any use to me.

    This thread is about giving you a tool you can use...that's all this is. Has nothing to do with whether you have problems in your healing performance or not...this is just a method to measure aspects of it so you can inform yourself...you can use it to theorycraft builds...or just for fun calculations if you have ideas for a build... it really doesn't even matter what you use it for...its just a tool.

    This is nothing to do with ego either...this has to do with me trying to give people something they can use to improve themselves if they want to or not...I'm like literally trying to help using as much objective logical reasoning as possible (and math) so that they themselves can confirm it to be the case without having to "take my word" for it.

    Lastly, I think it's you and your ego is preventing you from learning a different way to look at the game...I mean you assumed in your first comment, that I was motivated to make this thread by being made fun of for running a full heal tempest...which believe me I was made fun of still am for a very long time. Of course that's not my motivation for making this thread otherwise i would have made it a long time ago. And of course when I start showing you pictures where it's is in support of what I'm talking about, all of a sudden its MY ego? (and believe me I could BLOW your mind with some pictures and videos...) But that's not even necessary...in fact I hate making videos and taking pictures just to prove a point when its all there in the math that one can do themselves to find out on their own.

  • @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Psykewne.3025 said:
    Ugh. Look I think re-reading the thread, your ego is just in your own way on this one. You obviously think very highly of yourself and you're obviously more than competent at the game and that's fine, but this thread seems less and less like a useful thought piece and more and more like tooting your own horn. I think maybe this topic just isn't aimed at me because I really don't have a problem with my healing performance and there's nothing you've said that is of any use to me.

    This thread is about giving you a tool you can use...that's all this is. Has nothing to do with whether you have problems in your healing performance or not...this is just a method to measure aspects of it so you can inform yourself...you can use it to theorycraft builds...or just for fun calculations if you have ideas for a build... it really doesn't even matter what you use it for...its just a tool.

    This is nothing to do with ego either...this has to do with me trying to give people something they can use to improve themselves if they want to or not...I'm like literally trying to help using as much objective logical reasoning as possible (and math) so that they themselves can confirm it to be the case without having to "take my word" for it.

    Lastly, I think it's you and your ego is preventing you from learning a different way to look at the game...I mean you assumed in your first comment, that I was motivated to make this thread by being made fun of for running a full heal tempest...which believe me I was made fun of still am for a very long time. Of course that's not my motivation for making this thread otherwise i would have made it a long time ago. And of course when I start showing you pictures where it's is in support of what I'm talking about, all of a sudden its MY ego? (and believe me I could BLOW your mind with some pictures and videos...) But that's not even necessary...in fact I hate making videos and taking pictures just to prove a point when its all there in the math that one can do themselves to find out on their own.

    I find it interesting that no one has actually said anything in support or agreement to anything you have laid out in this thread yet you simply refute or ignore all contrary points. Either you are the smartest guy in the thread or you're severely off the mark.

  • JusticeRetroHunter.7684JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 1, 2020

    @Psykewne.3025 said:
    I find it interesting that no one has actually said anything in support or agreement to anything you have laid out in this thread yet you simply refute or ignore all contrary points. Either you are the smartest guy in the thread or you're severely off the mark.

    Most of the points made in this thread have nothing to do with the actual topic though. One of the main points people are discussing here is that boons are more important than healing...which I don't disagree with or agree with...but it has nothing to do with the topic since some boons are used to increase damage, while other boons are used to increase healing. You can supplement these things by just hedging what you have verse what you don't have. If you don't have access to protection, but you can heal for the same amount that protection would have supplemented in the fight, then both are just equivalent to one another, and likewise, if you have protection and a lower amount of direct healing. So neither is "more important" if you can measure that they have the same value...and this informs your decisions. If a squad leader is forcing you to take protection, when you could just heal through an encounter without protection because your class doesn't have access to it, then the method give more power to you. Having both is ideal...but some builds (classes) just don't have that kind of luxury.

    The other point people are trying to make here is trying to use the method in order to compare builds to one another, when this isn't the point of the method. You CAN compare builds on different classes to each other using this method, but that's not what you should be using it for. The design of the method is meant to pick a (any) build, find out it's potentials and see how well you are meeting that potential.

    Anyway, pick a build...any build you want to play, find out it's potential, then find out how well you are meeting that potential and it tells you some information you can use to better your gameplay, find different strategies, or mix and match different skills, traits and sigils etc. Only way to do this is to actually do the calculation rather than argue about whether it's a useful calculation for you or not. The calculation is not exclusive to just healing...it applies to anything that can be broken down into components of damage or healing. If you require stability or immobilize for an encounter, then you bring stability or immobilize... that has nothing to do with the potential healing of your build since it can't be broken down into components of healing that you can measure.

  • @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Psykewne.3025 said:
    I find it interesting that no one has actually said anything in support or agreement to anything you have laid out in this thread yet you simply refute or ignore all contrary points. Either you are the smartest guy in the thread or you're severely off the mark.

    Most of the points made in this thread have nothing to do with the actual topic though. One of the main points people are discussing here is that boons are more important than healing...which I don't disagree with or agree with...but it has nothing to do with the topic since some boons are used to increase damage, while other boons are used to increase healing. You can supplement these things by just hedging what you have verse what you don't have. If you don't have access to protection, but you can heal for the same amount that protection would have supplemented in the fight, then both are just equivalent to one another, and likewise, if you have protection and a lower amount of direct healing. So neither is "more important" if you can measure that they have the same value...and this informs your decisions. If a squad leader is forcing you to take protection, when you could just heal through an encounter without protection because your class doesn't have access to it, then the method give more power to you. Having both is ideal...but some builds (classes) just don't have that kind of luxury.

    The other point people are trying to make here is trying to use the method in order to compare builds to one another, when this isn't the point of the method. You CAN compare builds on different classes to each other using this method, but that's not what you should be using it for. The design of the method is meant to pick a (any) build, find out it's potentials and see how well you are meeting that potential.

    Anyway, pick a build...any build you want to play, find out it's potential, then find out how well you are meeting that potential and it tells you some information you can use to better your gameplay, find different strategies, or mix and match different skills, traits and sigils etc. Only way to do this is to actually do the calculation rather than argue about whether it's a useful calculation for you or not. The calculation is not exclusive to just healing...it applies to anything that can be broken down into components of damage or healing. If you require stability or immobilize for an encounter, then you bring stability or immobilize... that has nothing to do with the potential healing of your build since it can't be broken down into components of healing that you can measure.

    So essentially either a) you’ve explained it so poorly no one gets it b) you’re so smart no one is on your level to understand it c) your initial premise is so irrelevant everyone is discussing things that are actually relevant d) you’re entirely wrong

    You are arguing everything away as “that doesn’t apply” or “that’s not the point” I think it’s becoming clear there is no point. Certainly not in discussing anything with you it seems and I guess everyone else gave up on you a long time ago so I must be the fool for wasting my breath engaging you.

  • JusticeRetroHunter.7684JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 1, 2020

    @Psykewne.3025 said:
    So essentially either a) you’ve explained it so poorly no one gets it b) you’re so smart no one is on your level to understand it c) your initial premise is so irrelevant everyone is discussing things that are actually relevant d) you’re entirely wrong

    You left out the option E) Some people are too stubborn to take the time and do the (very simple) math in order to figure out objective properties about something.... clearly you missed that there are people here that do understand and are interested enough to ask questions about it.

    This method isn't some crazy magic dude...its literally adding stuff together...it can not be more simple than that. It's the same as taking the total amount of healing done at the end of a fight, and then dividing by the time of the fight to get an HPS, which is how Kitty does her calculation... It's the same thing except you are figuring out the potential of what could possibly be done in a fight and then comparing it to that number to see how well you are using the build...Because HPS alone in a vacuum isn't enough information to determine how well you are using a build.

    Example...Above in a previous comment, I did 4 million healing in a 4 minute boneskinner engagement. Take that number, divide it by 4 minutes, and you get 16,500 heal per second. But what does this number tell you? It doesn't say much unless you have some value to compare it to. People who use HPS meters usually compare this number to other people, to determine relative performance with other players. The method i'm using uses the potential you could ever possibly imagine to heal in a fight as a way to compare what you did, to what you can do on that build....it's literally in essence the same exact thing as Kitty's calculation, but taken a step further. This method is better because it takes values from specific skills, so that you can compare those skills to one another too...something an HPS meter in a vacuum can't do.

  • LadyKitty.6120LadyKitty.6120 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 1, 2020

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Psykewne.3025 said:
    So essentially either a) you’ve explained it so poorly no one gets it b) you’re so smart no one is on your level to understand it c) your initial premise is so irrelevant everyone is discussing things that are actually relevant d) you’re entirely wrong

    You left out the option E) Some people are too stubborn to take the time and do the (very simple) math in order to figure out objective properties about something.... clearly you missed that there are people here that do understand and are interested enough to ask questions about it.

    This method isn't some crazy magic dude...its literally adding stuff together...it can not be more simple than that. It's the same as taking the total amount of healing done at the end of a fight, and then dividing by the time of the fight to get an HPS, which is how Kitty does her calculation... It's the same thing except you are figuring out the potential of what could possibly be done in a fight and then comparing it to that number to see how well you are using the build...Because HPS alone in a vacuum isn't enough information to determine how well you are using a build.

    Example...Above in a previous comment, I did 4 million healing in a 4 minute boneskinner engagement. Take that number, divide it by 4 minutes, and you get 16,500 heal per second. But what does this number tell you? It doesn't say much unless you have some value to compare it to. People who use HPS meters usually compare this number to other people, to determine relative performance with other players. The method i'm using uses the potential you could ever possibly imagine to heal in a fight as a way to compare what you did, to what you can do on that build....it's literally in essence the same exact thing as Kitty's calculation, but taken a step further. This method is better because it takes values from specific skills, so that you can compare those skills to one another too...something an HPS meter in a vacuum can't do.

    Meanwhile the build Kitty's using has about max. 25-29k potential if there's no waste when calculated with Kitty's method (and note: Kitty's math uses harrier's trinkets+weapons, magi's armor and Earth+Water specs instead of pure magi water+arcane healer you use which has over 40k potential by quick estimation) and thus you only used 55-66% of the build's max. healing potential even if you're running the lower healing boonbot version. In other words that's far more than enough for the boss even if you actually brought boons on top of healing. And considering that big portion of tempest's heals hit more than 5 peoples, tempest even gets further boost in numbers over other healers in healing that takes effect in arcdps. And those numbers just further confirm the numbers Kitty's used earlier in this thread with "Boneskinner, the most damage intensive boss by good margin in popular no torch-strat, does 2500-3000 damage per second. " referring to damage per person and if 10-target heals are even 20% of total healing, that's already bringing the healing done by you within that range as 16000 = 0,8 x 5 x 2750 + 0,2 x 10 x 2750, 2750 being the healing per person by average if tempest were a normal 5-target healer.

    It's Kitty. The young lady who recorded videos playing various (non-)metabuilds. Raid/fractal videos at youtube.com/LadyKitty, Kittymarks test results at youtube.com/Kittymarks and tinyurl.com/Kittymarks. Not active anymore.

  • JusticeRetroHunter.7684JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 1, 2020

    @LadyKitty.6120 said:
    Meanwhile the build Kitty's using has about max. 25-29k potential if there's no waste when calculated with Kitty's method (and note: Kitty's math uses harrier's trinkets+weapons, magi's armor and Earth+Water specs instead of pure magi water+arcane healer you use which has over 40k potential by quick estimation) and thus you only used 55-66% of the build's max. healing potential even if you're running the lower healing boonbot version. In other words that's far more than enough for the boss even if you actually brought boons on top of healing. And considering that big portion of tempest's heals hit more than 5 peoples, tempest even gets further boost in numbers over other healers in healing that takes effect in arcdps. And those numbers just further confirm the numbers Kitty's used earlier in this thread with "Boneskinner, the most damage intensive boss by good margin in popular no torch-strat, does 2500-3000 damage per second. " referring to damage per person and if 10-target heals are even 20% of total healing, that's already bringing the healing done by you within that range as 16000 = 0,8 x 5 x 2750 + 0,2 x 10 x 2750, 2750 being the healing per person by average if tempest were a normal 5-target healer.

    Kitty... 16,000 / 10 people is 1.6k healing per person. This is the amount I healed during that boss fight. The potential of the build i could have had in that fight is 11 million healing....Which means i could have healed 45,800 / 10 people is 4.5k healing per person...1.6k as a ratio to 4.5k is 35% efficacy.

    " if 10-target heals are even 20% of total healing,"

    A ) The problem with your calculations kitty, is you have too many "If's" that you are just adding into it. "If 10 target heals is 20% of total healing" comes out of nowhere, and really there is no reason to believe that the 10 target healing is 20% of total healing. Where did you even get this figure from?

    B ) Another "If" in your equations is the boss damage. The boss damage is different for all bosses and different on every encounter... You don't need this figure to find out the same information...Even if you go around trying to find how much damage the boss has done, that only applies for that particular encounter...it's not an average, and the average ranges anywhere from "Did all my allies stand in the ooze" to "did none of my allies stand in the ooze" This variable is to subjective and that's why your numbers become wishy washy.

    C ) your number of 2.7k...i'm not sure what it's supposed to represent...because again it's an HPS in a vacuum.... is this the maximum potential healing someone can heal for? Is this the average amount of healing a Tempest can do in a fight? Is this number pulled from a rotation that you used? There's no logical explanation for arriving at this number of 2.7k...

    Again you can prove this by just doing calculation backwards...if i healed 2.7k HPS per person, then my total healing should come out to 4 million in 4 minutes right?

    2.7 x 10 allies = 27,000 per second. 27,000 x 240 seconds = 6.48 million healing. What am i missing here? Where did this extra 2.48 million healing come from?

  • LadyKitty.6120LadyKitty.6120 Member ✭✭✭

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @LadyKitty.6120 said:
    Meanwhile the build Kitty's using has about max. 25-29k potential if there's no waste when calculated with Kitty's method (and note: Kitty's math uses harrier's trinkets+weapons, magi's armor and Earth+Water specs instead of pure magi water+arcane healer you use which has over 40k potential by quick estimation) and thus you only used 55-66% of the build's max. healing potential even if you're running the lower healing boonbot version. In other words that's far more than enough for the boss even if you actually brought boons on top of healing. And considering that big portion of tempest's heals hit more than 5 peoples, tempest even gets further boost in numbers over other healers in healing that takes effect in arcdps. And those numbers just further confirm the numbers Kitty's used earlier in this thread with "Boneskinner, the most damage intensive boss by good margin in popular no torch-strat, does 2500-3000 damage per second. " referring to damage per person and if 10-target heals are even 20% of total healing, that's already bringing the healing done by you within that range as 16000 = 0,8 x 5 x 2750 + 0,2 x 10 x 2750, 2750 being the healing per person by average if tempest were a normal 5-target healer.

    Kitty... 16,000 / 10 people is 1.6k healing per person. This is the amount I healed during that boss fight. The potential of the build i could have had in that fight is 11 million healing....Which means i could have healed 45,800 / 10 people is 4.5k healing per person...1.6k as a ratio to 4.5k is 35% efficacy.

    " if 10-target heals are even 20% of total healing,"

    A ) The problem with your calculations kitty, is you have too many "If's" that you are just adding into it. "If 10 target heals is 20% of total healing" comes out of nowhere, and really there is no reason to believe that the 10 target healing is 20% of total healing. Where did you even get this figure from?

    B ) Another "If" in your equations is the boss damage. The boss damage is different for all bosses and different on every encounter... You don't need this figure to find out the same information...Even if you go around trying to find how much damage the boss has done, that only applies for that particular encounter...it's not an average, and the average ranges anywhere from "Did all my allies stand in the ooze" to "did none of my allies stand in the ooze" This variable is to subjective and that's why your numbers become wishy washy.

    C ) your number of 2.7k...i'm not sure what it's supposed to represent...because again it's an HPS in a vacuum.... is this the maximum potential healing someone can heal for? Is this the average amount of healing a Tempest can do in a fight? Is this number pulled from a rotation that you used? There's no logical explanation for arriving at this number of 2.7k...

    Again you can prove this by just doing calculation backwards...if i healed 2.7k HPS per person, then my total healing should come out to 4 million in 4 minutes right?

    2.7 x 10 allies = 27,000 per second. 27,000 x 240 seconds = 6.48 million healing. What am i missing here? Where did this extra 2.48 million healing come from?

    The thing is, you apparently don't seem to acknowledge that most of the heals in GW2 are 5-target and as such, there's usually one healer per 5 players and thus Kitty finds it most meaningful to compare the numbers standardized to that format (with 10-target heals counted as double their value to make them comparable though it skews the 10-target healers potential upwards if playing in squad with less than 10 players (which is why tempest is in fact a really dangerous choice for 5-player party's healer (standard party/subsquad size in PVE) as tempest's party doesn't benefit from those and big portion of subsquad prioritizing heals (esp. healbrand and healrene work that way) never leak to tempest's subsquad to compensate.
    Though then again, now that Kitty took a closer look at your screenshot, you're in WvW where things are way more like you've been saying in this thread. But that leads Kitty to kind of conclusion that you're trying to translate your WvW numbers to PVE (on instanced PVE content subforum, if Kitty may add) and ignore how PVE squads actually work which causes the builds you're using for your math to be irrelevant to actual gameplay scenario that is discussed on this subforum and thus rendering your numbers quite useless for anyone who'd use these kind of calculations in said content while Kitty's calculations are specificly using the builds used for that content.
    And as raid support main who's actually created prototype versions of and played many of the currently used and unused builds before they were adopted by raid community, Kitty has tons of videos actually showcasing essentially every single healbuild in raids if you need to check out what builds in this subforum look like. And just to tell you, Kitty ALWAYS does the basic potential math before testing the builds in the content itself and she's rarely turned out wrong. Except about that heal mirage...

    And as for that 27k for ten players, that 25-29k Kitty HERSELF mentioned is the max. potential in ideal conditions with realistic boons that you can assume to have in any scenario if people even try to play efficiently where this math would even matter to begin with. And that 2750 HPS Kitty mentioned regarding your earlier post is that 16,5k you said to have healed converted to 5-person subsquad standard assuming you had 2 healers (and with 16500 total HPS over 4 minutes, it doesn't sound like you were solo healing unless you had a kitten pro squad). "16000 = 0,8 x 5 x 2750 + 0,2 x 10 x 2750, 2750 being the healing per person by average if tempest were a normal 5-target healer." meaning if you were to directly compare with strict 5-target healers such as druid, FB, rene or chrono etc. Only tempest and scourge have direct 10-target healing capabilities in meaningful amounts which is why they need that extra conversion for any comparable number. Ofc you can just calculate without taking comparability and viability account at all for theorethical potential and mathematical self-satisfaction but trying to even test that in any raids as 10-target solo healer... Well, good luck with that. Kitty already had hard enough time on more realistic builds in raids and your build would usually earn insta-kick in T4 fractals 'cause HB.

    And as for that if-if-if, yes. Kitty uses the word IF a lot when theorycrafting. When doing calculations with possible variables or uncertain/unknown but predictable factors possibly causing any meaningful changes in outcome, you need to take those into account and for setting a scenario with certain set conditions, word IF is kinda helpful to avoid making a list of those conditions. IF is the conditional, after all :3

    It's Kitty. The young lady who recorded videos playing various (non-)metabuilds. Raid/fractal videos at youtube.com/LadyKitty, Kittymarks test results at youtube.com/Kittymarks and tinyurl.com/Kittymarks. Not active anymore.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 3, 2020

    I don't really get the point ... theoretical limits on how much you can heal for are as useful as theoretical limits on how much DPS you can do ... neither help you play the game how you want. I guess it's a cool academic discussion ... but the practical implications for the game are questionable.

    If you're on a highway and roadrunner goes "beep beep"
    Just step aside or you might end up in a heap

  • This reminds me of how we used to do DPS calculations before meters were allowed, and before there was raid training golem. It involved a lot of spreadsheets, and having to deal with similarly math-challenged individuals.

    Personally, I prefer to keep it singular. When doing comparisons, it is much easier to focus on how much healing is being done to a single ally, rather than a group. For one, it is easier for the average layperson to understand, because that is how much healing they will personally receive. This is also important, because the amount of damage that a skill person does or receives is also calculated on the individual. It makes comparing like numbers easier. Second, it is much easier to scale up for groups than it is to scale down. The issue of target counts is best addressed after the fact.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    This reminds me of how we used to do DPS calculations before meters were allowed, and before there was raid training golem. It involved a lot of spreadsheets, and having to deal with similarly math-challenged individuals.

    Personally, I prefer to keep it singular. When doing comparisons, it is much easier to focus on how much healing is being done to a single ally, rather than a group. For one, it is easier for the average layperson to understand, because that is how much healing they will personally receive. This is also important, because the amount of damage that a skill person does or receives is also calculated on the individual. It makes comparing like numbers easier. Second, it is much easier to scale up for groups than it is to scale down. The issue of target counts is best addressed after the fact.

    That's right. If any of us plebs question the relevance of your extensive theorycrafting it's because we don't understand basic math...not because not a bit of any of it has any practical application at all.

  • Blood Red Arachnid.2493Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    This reminds me of how we used to do DPS calculations before meters were allowed, and before there was raid training golem. It involved a lot of spreadsheets, and having to deal with similarly math-challenged individuals.

    Personally, I prefer to keep it singular. When doing comparisons, it is much easier to focus on how much healing is being done to a single ally, rather than a group. For one, it is easier for the average layperson to understand, because that is how much healing they will personally receive. This is also important, because the amount of damage that a skill person does or receives is also calculated on the individual. It makes comparing like numbers easier. Second, it is much easier to scale up for groups than it is to scale down. The issue of target counts is best addressed after the fact.

    That's right. If any of us plebs question the relevance of your extensive theorycrafting it's because we don't understand basic math...not because not a bit of any of it has any practical application at all.

    Saying something true satirically doesn't make it less true. Cross-application is part of mathematical literacy.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited 5:36AM

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    This reminds me of how we used to do DPS calculations before meters were allowed, and before there was raid training golem. It involved a lot of spreadsheets, and having to deal with similarly math-challenged individuals.

    Personally, I prefer to keep it singular. When doing comparisons, it is much easier to focus on how much healing is being done to a single ally, rather than a group. For one, it is easier for the average layperson to understand, because that is how much healing they will personally receive. This is also important, because the amount of damage that a skill person does or receives is also calculated on the individual. It makes comparing like numbers easier. Second, it is much easier to scale up for groups than it is to scale down. The issue of target counts is best addressed after the fact.

    That's right. If any of us plebs question the relevance of your extensive theorycrafting it's because we don't understand basic math...not because not a bit of any of it has any practical application at all.

    Saying something true satirically doesn't make it less true. Cross-application is part of mathematical literacy.

    As does overconvidence in ones own superiority.

    For me personally the experience I've made over the years:
    The smartest people I have met where most often the ones least interested or driven in showing it off to others or proving they are smarter. They usually just did their thing and where grounded enough in their ability, and often surrounded by peers, that spending time on showing off would have been counterproductive.

    In this case it was already established that this thought excercise is nice for wasting some time, but pretty useless as far as actual game usefulness (if sticking to only healing and theory).