I'll post this in bullet points, since Anet made a big deal about them liking those;

• Over successive recent patches, Arenanet has carved away at the necro's pool of life-force,
• We all know Necros are garbage when they have no lifeforce left,
• I'm satisfied that something has been changed on the class,
• I'm not satisfied that the whole Shroud mechanic has been gutted.

I don't want to trade being useful most of the time for occasionally being beastly.

@Svarty.8019 said:I'll post this in bullet points, since Anet made a big deal about them liking those;

• Over successive recent patches, Arenanet has carved away at the necro's pool of life-force,
• We all know Necros are garbage when they have no lifeforce left,
• I'm satisfied that something has been changed on the class,
• I'm not satisfied that the whole Shroud mechanic has been gutted.

I don't want to trade being useful most of the time for occasionally being beastly.

I was just playing for an hour and it seems every other fight I was in Shroud, my Shroud lasted for the duration of a fight against multiple enemies.

I was running Reaper/Blood/Spite with all Signets, Flesh Golem, that new trait with the word Anger in it, the Signet Trait, anything that either increased Vuln or Crit, Reapers Onslaught, I know my description isn't that helpful but I suppose you can probably work out most of the build.

@Oldirtbeard.9834 said:

I was running Reaper/Blood/Spite with all Signets, Flesh Golem, that new trait with the word Anger in it, the Signet Trait, anything that either increased Vuln or Crit, Reapers Onslaught, I know my description isn't that helpful but I suppose you can probably work out most of the build.

So do you consider Signets of Suffering and Signet of Undeath to be mandatory in order to mitigate our gargantuan Life-Force issues?

@Oldirtbeard.9834 said:

@Svarty.8019 said:I'll post this in bullet points, since Anet made a big deal about them liking those;

• Over successive recent patches, Arenanet has carved away at the necro's pool of life-force,
• We all know Necros are garbage when they have no lifeforce left,
• I'm satisfied that something has been changed on the class,
• I'm not satisfied that the whole Shroud mechanic has been gutted.

I don't want to trade being useful most of the time for occasionally being beastly.

The biggest issue is that lifeforce generation doesn't have the upkeep of shroud decay like it used to be, so the balance is really off.

It's fine if we lose lifeforce easily but we need to be able to gain it back just as easily. It should feel like a cycle instead of the clunky wait period we're being given now.

@Kalocin.5982 said:

@Oldirtbeard.9834 said:

@Svarty.8019 said:I'll post this in bullet points, since Anet made a big deal about them liking those;

• Over successive recent patches, Arenanet has carved away at the necro's pool of life-force,
• We all know Necros are garbage when they have no lifeforce left,
• I'm satisfied that something has been changed on the class,
• I'm not satisfied that the whole Shroud mechanic has been gutted.

I don't want to trade being useful most of the time for occasionally being beastly.

No more clunky than a Balance Druid from Wrath of the Lich King.

i have been thinking.while i absolutely do not like the SoS kitten... the reduced shroud uptime, almost negates the dmgincrease now. GS camping is still almost as good as using a proper rotation with GS, axe and shroud combined.if i think of real engagements, pvp and pve alike... shroud does not last significantly shorter under pressure now. difference in pvp is, when a reaper uses shroud now ( !!assume we are a killer in shroud now)... roamers will disengage, wait for the LF to deplete and attack when shroud + LF are depleted.headache :D

Has always been this way....roamers disengage and wait for LF to deplete...they just don't have to wait long now at all.

@Shazmataz.1423 said:Has always been this way....roamers disengage and wait for LF to deplete...they just don't have to wait long now at all.If you allow them to do this, you are doing it wrong.

Even other necros (the competent ones) will destroy you, when you play like that.

@KrHome.1920 said:

@Shazmataz.1423 said:Has always been this way....roamers disengage and wait for LF to deplete...they just don't have to wait long now at all.If you allow them to do this, you are doing it wrong.

Not useful. You don't say what to do instead.I remember when I could compete a few patches ago, the decent enemies would back off, wait for shroud to either run out or for me to turn it off and then jump on my head. The cooldown on Shroud was bad THEN (7seconds with SoS), it's a joke NOW (10).

@KrHome.1920 said:

@Shazmataz.1423 said:Has always been this way....roamers disengage and wait for LF to deplete...they just don't have to wait long now at all.If you allow them to do this, you are doing it wrong.

Explain how for example to achieve this on a dude whos half out of a coma playin thief. The shroud at present gets blasted in no time. We dnt get the chance to bust out these enhanced skills. Defense out of shroud = paper towel.

@Svarty.8019 said:I'll post this in bullet points, since Anet made a big deal about them liking those;

• Over successive recent patches, Arenanet has carved away at the necro's pool of life-force,
• We all know Necros are garbage when they have no lifeforce left,
• I'm satisfied that something has been changed on the class,
• I'm not satisfied that the whole Shroud mechanic has been gutted.

I don't want to trade being useful most of the time for occasionally being beastly.

I think the same!! it was way better beafore, more being usefull most of the time than being beastly occasionally!

Others obviously feel differently but (outside of open world PvE events filled with a chaotic mass of dying mobs and overlapping AoE) I feel like staying in shroud is an admission that I will be downed, soon.

@Anchoku.8142 said:Others obviously feel differently but (outside of open world PvE events filled with a chaotic mass of dying mobs and overlapping AoE) I feel like staying in shroud is an admission that I will be downed, soon.

can you please list here any other ways for necromancers not to be downed other than use Shroud ?

@ilmau.9781 said:

@Anchoku.8142 said:Others obviously feel differently but (outside of open world PvE events filled with a chaotic mass of dying mobs and overlapping AoE) I feel like staying in shroud is an admission that I will be downed, soon.

Run around with a Firebrand and Tempest?

Not "or." "And."

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

@ilmau.9781 said:

@Anchoku.8142 said:Others obviously feel differently but (outside of open world PvE events filled with a chaotic mass of dying mobs and overlapping AoE) I feel like staying in shroud is an admission that I will be downed, soon.

Yeah.. Necromancers are notoriously bad at running, for a start ;)

Well I assume we are talking WvW. I would think taking the Blighter's Boon Trait, the Signate Trait, are somewhat required to keep your LF going while attacking. And what are you giving up for this? Some Burst dmg past 50% health, and a single bleed on chill? The Bleed on chill, at 3 stacks was good with the whirl finishers and other ways to quickly condi burst, but now you are a power burst class, what else would you take?

@Meetshield.1756 said:Well I assume we are talking WvW. I would think taking the Blighter's Boon Trait, the Signate Trait, are somewhat required to keep your LF going while attacking. And what are you giving up for this? Some Burst dmg past 50% health, and a single bleed on chill? The Bleed on chill, at 3 stacks was good with the whirl finishers and other ways to quickly condi burst, but now you are a power burst class, what else would you take?

To stay alive in front lines you need lot of hp / constant heal / constant cleanse / constant breakstuns / OR if you are a necro lot of Life Force, but you also need to do something usefull just not to be a full tank who do 0 damage, and for that play Trailblazer + Shouts was perfect. You were able to do both, stay alive and dps at same time. And it was NOT broken. That never needed to be changed by any mean. It was just a decent WvW build. So i am asking again to Anet, WHY DID YOU CHANGED IT ? what are the reasons behind the change?

To be even more clear, since noone is getting to the point, shout reaper was working (stay alive + dps) boosting just 4 specs, thoughness, vitality, condition damage and expertise, rather, to be effective with a power build you need 5 specs, power, thoughness, vitality, precision and ferocity, and this result in a loss of spec that result in either a loss of survavibility or a loss of DPS. So, either case, they took something that was working in a decent way and totally destroyed it.

Aside from the elite players, most people should not consider Necro as a roaming class. It just does not compete with high mobility high damage classes like Thief, Mesmer, Warrior, Ranger, and Ele (or the rest). Perhaps that was never the intent from Anet, to allow necro to be a solo roam class (in WvW/PvP)

@Esprit Dumort.3109 said:Aside from the elite players, most people should not consider Necro as a roaming class. It just does not compete with high mobility high damage classes like Thief, Mesmer, Warrior, Ranger, and Ele (or the rest). Perhaps that was never the intent from Anet, to allow necro to be a solo roam class (in WvW/PvP)

i disagree there, Anet work should be to set up each class as playable, otherwise they are not doing their job.

I play this game only as Necromancer and only as Reaper and ofc i play it beacouse it is fun, and as it is now it is no fun anymore, so i start missing any point to play it.

@KrHome.1920 said:

@Shazmataz.1423 said:Has always been this way....roamers disengage and wait for LF to deplete...they just don't have to wait long now at all.If you allow them to do this, you are doing it wrong.

Yep like we can disengage and run away with our super necro speed abilities....I think that you kinda read that wrong. What I meant is that the LF is going to deplete well before the attackers patience....but if I'm still wrong I would like you to enlighten me please so that i can ltp it would be appreciated.

@Shazmataz.1423 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:

@Shazmataz.1423 said:Has always been this way....roamers disengage and wait for LF to deplete...they just don't have to wait long now at all.If you allow them to do this, you are doing it wrong.

Your first topic was about disengaging infight to let the necro run out of Life Force and then reengage for an easy kill. This is is called kiting and only bad necros allow their oppoent to do so - a 100% L2P issue!

Your second topic was about disengaging in terms of leaving/resetting the fight because you are about to lose. This is no option for a necro and I never denied that.

@KrHome.1920 said:

@Shazmataz.1423 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:

@Shazmataz.1423 said:Has always been this way....roamers disengage and wait for LF to deplete...they just don't have to wait long now at all.If you allow them to do this, you are doing it wrong.

since seems we are alla noob necros i would like you to list here some ways for necro to avoid kiting, thank You.

Since based on my 6k hours experience in order to do so you need a specific combination of traits that ofc works mainly only in shroud and with the recent shroud nerf once again you do not have enought life force to do everything, so or you use LF to avoid kiting then engage with none left, or use it to do damage, but then you are exposed, or use to defend yourself but then no more kite an no more damage. To sum up, Reaper is a useless class now, the nerf was huge and totally at a troll level.

@KrHome.1920 said:

@Shazmataz.1423 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:

@Shazmataz.1423 said:Has always been this way....roamers disengage and wait for LF to deplete...they just don't have to wait long now at all.If you allow them to do this, you are doing it wrong.

Is this guy seriously acting like Necros have anykind of mobility compared to any other class out there ?

LOOOOOOOOOOOL What game are you playing dude ?

@KrHome.1920 said:

@Shazmataz.1423 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:

@Shazmataz.1423 said:Has always been this way....roamers disengage and wait for LF to deplete...they just don't have to wait long now at all.If you allow them to do this, you are doing it wrong.

It's the same topic....ie a fight...not sure why you are being so combative, I am genuinely trying to understand what you are saying but it's like you want to be secret about it.

@dceptaconroy.7928 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:

@Shazmataz.1423 said:Has always been this way....roamers disengage and wait for LF to deplete...they just don't have to wait long now at all.If you allow them to do this, you are doing it wrong.

Actually to be fair to KrHome, power Reapers have an easier time killing thieves compared to condi Reapers. Especially now that the Shroud burst a lot harder.I think there was previously a thief player who dual main Necro (I can't remember his name, I think it starts with 'D') and he sometimes explained briefly on the forums how to kill thieves as a Power Reaper.I learnt from him and now got a fair chance to kill most thieves on my power Reaper.Even more so now.This is of course, with the assumption that the thief wants to fight you and not repeatedly hit and run till he depletes your LF...which has always been a problem anyway, pre and post patch. Still, the below tips can give you a small chance to take down even hit and run thieves.

Some tips I can share:

Against D/P, S/D, D/D thieves

• Dodge their steal. I know this is largely guess work, but with enough playtime, you have a fair chance to tell when a steal might be coming.
• If you didn't manage to dodge their steal, enter shroud as soon as you can react to mitigate the burst
• You have 2 options from here when you enter shroud
• First option: Shroud 4 whirl immediately. It does massive damage on the thief and can down him very quickly. I do not recommend doing this here though as the thief is probably not low enough in health yet and he would probably have enough reaction time to get out alive unless the stars align and all your runes/traits proc and crit together for one lovely burst.
• Second option: Leave Shroud immediately after entering because good thieves will stop pressuring and get out of the way
• Assuming you did the second option, pressure him with range Axe 2
• Swap to GS and cast GS 4 blinding AOE to negate the pressure
• Now wait for him to engage again and this time, with his health preferably lower at around 80%, Shroud and Shroud 4 the moment he jumps on you
• This usually KOs the thief from 80% to 0% HP

The above is a very general rotation, but the main idea is to try and lower his health till about 80% and Shroud 4 burst him because Shroud 4 hits like a truck.The build you are using will matter though.You will need a high power burst build and the Reaper's Onslaught trait is key. It triggers the Shroud 4 spin to go faster and hit harder.

Note though that the shroud 4 burst trick does not work against all thief builds.It will work against builds like D/P, S/D, D/D.Range thieves for example won't take your Shroud 4 spin easily unless you managed to land a pull with your GS or Spectral Grasp.Evade thieves like Staff or Sword/Pistol won't take your Shroud 4 spin easily either as their attack animation is accompanied by evades.Different ways will need to be used to fight them.

Against P/P, Rifle Thieves

Against Range thieves like P/P or Rifle Deadeyes, it is important to land your pull. Whether it is your spectral grasp or your GS 5, don't spam them early. Leave them for mid fights when the thief has expanded at least one gap opener and preferably taken some damage. Then pull and Shroud whirl 4.

Against Staff Thieves

Against Staff thieves, I had previously created a video on how to fight them as a Condi Reaper. What I didn't share in the video though, was that movement was very important. Not only must you keep moving, the secret against most Staff thieves is to move side-ways a little and then move in straight towards them. Many of them have the tendency to use Staff 5 to gap close on you and this requires estimation and placement from the thief. Moving your Reaper side-ways a little can throw their estimation off when you change direction to move in towards them and you can mitigate a lot of damage just by making them miss Staff 5 via your movement.

Against S/P Thieves

Personally I find Sword/Pistol thieves the hardest to fight on a Reaper as they chain immobilize, daze, evade in their attacks which are all deadly against a Reaper.I had however, asked on the thief forums for advice and while most of them agree that S/P thief counters a Reaper, some have informed me that the Pistol whip chain produces a very distinct sound that will give us time to dodge. Unfortunately, I don't like playing with sound on so I didn't really test that out, but you could if you play with sound.I did however, learnt some things through my fights with S/P thieves. In fact, I just killed a Sword/Pistol thief (a good one too, killed me 3 times before), on my Power Reaper.The most important lesson I learnt against S/P thieves was that you needed to have a good gauge of when they will jump you with pistol whip (if you don't play with sound, it is really just based on guess work made better by experience). Blind with dagger or dodge it. It eats into their initiatives easily and preventing just two of these pistol whips in a fight will tilt the fight in your favor.

Build

This is the build I'm currently running on my power Reaper in WvW Solo Roam.It actually has a fair chance 1 on 1 vs most of the classes I've met (except for warriors, too much damage immunity, especially rifle warriors).Even most kiters like Druids and Deadeyes, I've got a fair chance to kill them.

You could change FiTG trait for Death Perception for 100% Crit chance in shroud for that real massive shroud burst, but personally I prefer FiTG as the added stun-break on shroud helps against opponents like Ranger knockbacks, and in general, just to bait people into thinking they can go offensive on me when they hard CC me, which allows me to Break stun with Shroud enter and counter attack. For example, a thief jumps me with venom or fears me and thinks he is safe to get a few hits in but I could use that opportunity to Shroud and burst him back.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQNAnYRnc0A92gd2AmbC0biFcBD6qFAOAxXxuYZkqL0G+CA-j1CFQB8RJo+UXRd6DekKFA4BAoQlZ1Y/hko0QAnAAEcIAYwRA4bwAwQICg3d3d2RERERkhUAXM0C-w