Simple renegade fix.

When a member of the warband is destroyed, (say by a cleaving melee attack aimed at something else. Or a sneeze) the destruction causes an AoE burst of a stronger effect around them. Thus punishing players (in pvp) for simply targeting your utilities.

This both allows for counterplay, and solves the primary issue with the warband. Ie: it's easy to kill them before they matter.

Simple.

Razorclaw - explodes for 4 short bleed stacks in an area around the "phantasm" and 2 short bleeds around the Rev.

Icerazor- explodes for AoE long chill and small burst of direct damage, short AoE chill around the Rev.

Darkrazor- explodes for .5 sec AoE stun, and AoE blind, . 25 sec daze around the Rev.

Soulcleave- explodes for burst of direct damage (dunno a fair figure here, but something like a 50% dmg heartseeker) AoE, heal for 3/4.

Rather than have the elite stationary, it should follow you using ranger pet scripting. But it should be the only one that does.

This has the effect of making the high energy costs worth it. Keeps up with the flavor of the legend... And makes the utilities feel unique, less like immobile phantasms/wells... And more like thier own thing. Also, probably uses generic graphical assets. To make the changes (phantasm shatter animation, plus some AoE art effect from necro.)

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:When a member of the warband is destroyed, (say by a cleaving melee attack aimed at something else. Or a sneeze) the destruction causes an AoE burst of a stronger effect around them. Thus punishing players (in pvp) for simply targeting your utilities.

This both allows for counterplay, and solves the primary issue with the warband. Ie: it's easy to kill them before they matter.

Simple.

Razorclaw - explodes for 4 short bleed stacks in an area around the "phantasm" and 2 short bleeds around the Rev.

Icerazor- explodes for AoE long chill and small burst of direct damage, short AoE chill around the Rev.

Darkrazor- explodes for .5 sec AoE stun, and AoE blind, . 25 sec daze around the Rev.

Soulcleave- explodes for burst of direct damage (dunno a fair figure here, but something like a 50% dmg heartseeker) AoE, heal for 3/4.

Rather than have the elite stationary, it should follow you using ranger pet scripting. But it should be the only one that does.

This has the effect of making the high energy costs worth it. Keeps up with the flavor of the legend... And makes the utilities feel unique, less like immobile phantasms/wells... And more like thier own thing. Also, probably uses generic graphical assets. To make the changes (phantasm shatter animation, plus some AoE art effect from necro.)

Sure, as long as mesmer gets on-clone death traits back.

There's a reason this crap was removed from the game, its just not healthy. Hopefully now with renegade, more people will start to realize the drawbacks of mesmer's class mechanic being focused around easily destroyable summons

eeh, except that a well played mesmer can just get lost in the crowd, infinitely. a renegade just cant do that.

Yeah, another passive aoe effect which triggers without player intervent.It's really what spvp needs. I'd suggest to make condition damage from aoe, not physical.

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:eeh, except that a well played mesmer can just get lost in the crowd, infinitely. a renegade just cant do that.

Yeah, against new and inexperienced players. Are we going to balance around people who can't play the game now?

Renegades have to deal with the same issues Mesmers have had to deal with for over 5 years. It would be better to find a solution for both classes instead of cherry picking which class gets fixed and which doesn't.

the point of the suggestion is counterplay. have you guys not read the same threads i did bitching about never wanting to summon the warband, because they will die to cleave?

so, this adds counterplay. "do i kill the warband? or do i let it run its course?"

secondly, don't pretend like there's some magical skill threshold, after-which you can magically ignore panic reactions, and just find the real mesmer, every time. fact is, you cant always. If you, personally, can.... good for you, don't pretend like everyone else just can.

there's a clear reason to give the fix to the renegade, and not the mesmer. ie. clones. which renegades dont get. the on death clone traits were removed specifically because it WORKS to summon clones, go invisible and blend into your own crowd. also, mesmer summoning skills are all ONLY cooldown based. renegade has energy and cd to deal with (not complaining about this, i actually like it, just pointing it out.)

i almost never have issues with my clones and phantasms being destroyed before they become useful, because i can always make more. renegade can explicitly NOT do this. you'll summon one, maybe two each time your in Kala. Mesmer can literally pour a never ending swarm out, which looks just like you, forever.

also, renegade warband does not move.... meaning that you need to drop them into combat. or set them up around you, either way, theyll end up in the middle of a melee, weather you charge in or get charged.

Broken is not that somebody chose to kill the warband with all the aoes.Also it's like "kill hunter pet before him", somehow.And remember that if on lasthit it detonates ( by choice cause on target or randomly cause aoe ) you are attacking, so you can't avoid it.

I am the first who says that Renegade needs buffs but, to me, that is not the solution.

ps: we have also to remember that not all elites will be meant for spvp/wvw/pve... there will be good builds for pve, other for spvp or for wvw.

well, i didn't think of detonate on last hit. you have a good point there. what about detonate on a .5 sec delay?

I was thinking instead "why does scourge have untargettable shades and revenant dont?".Maybe lowering dmg ( like scour... oh wait... ) and make em with shorter duration and invul.

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:the point of the suggestion is counterplay. have you guys not read the same threads i did bitching about never wanting to summon the warband, because they will die to cleave?

so, this adds counterplay. "do i kill the warband? or do i let it run its course?"

secondly, don't pretend like there's some magical skill threshold, after-which you can magically ignore panic reactions, and just find the real mesmer, every time. fact is, you cant always. If you, personally, can.... good for you, don't pretend like everyone else just can.

there's a clear reason to give the fix to the renegade, and not the mesmer. ie. clones. which renegades dont get. the on death clone traits were removed specifically because it WORKS to summon clones, go invisible and blend into your own crowd. also, mesmer summoning skills are all ONLY cooldown based. renegade has energy and cd to deal with (not complaining about this, i actually like it, just pointing it out.)

i almost never have issues with my clones and phantasms being destroyed before they become useful, because i can always make more. renegade can explicitly NOT do this. you'll summon one, maybe two each time your in Kala. Mesmer can literally pour a never ending swarm out, which looks just like you, forever.

Yada yada typical:"My class needs fixing, others classes with the same issue are fine."

If you can't spot the real mesmer, then you haven't pvped beyond rank 10 or 20. Not to mention that in wvw clones and phantasms die near instantly to massive aoe cleave. There is a ton of tells which give away clones for mesmer fyi.

You do bring up an intersting point, if the warband doesn't move, what good are on death traits? Any semi exprienced player won't be near them to be affected thus rendering your solution impractical.

I stand by my comment: better to find a fix in general than bandaid fix these kind of issues (especially with such a poor bandaid at that).

Magic is a form of bound energy; energy is never lost, it only changes from one form to another.I like the image of the summoned beings expending their remaining energy in a short AoE (given the damage type it dealt in combat) as a way of dissipation. If nothing else, an instance of blindness to attackers as it goes (super)nova or confusion as the enemy it was fighting merely disappears before its eyes.Some things make good role-playing fights while others make for great adventure stories.

cyninja, dude. the classes are obviously different. i get that your salty about mesmer, but that's not what this is about. did i not say: "if YOU can spot the real mesmer, then good for YOU. but not everyone can" ?

now, you can pretend that every single person can spot them and make it the reason why your angry every time a thief ganks you. but again, not what this is about.

its not the same issue, the classes are not the same. im looking at renegade as though meser did not exist.

but, of course the guy with the chronomancer avatar makes a discussion about the renegade and how to SIMPLY fix it, into an issue bitching about how his favorite class is too weak.

mesmer is fine, i only play the class 18% of the time, and i win far more than i loose with it. and i hide myself in the clones.

now, you can imagine yourself to be the god of pvp, and me a scrub. i dont much care. but i get you dont like the idea. go salt elsewhere.

secondly, which is more powerful, a warband member running its full course, or a member being summoned and detonating as ive suggested?

the detonation seems much weaker to me, unless its run its full course and gets popped in its last few second of life. otherwise your getting upset about.... what? the renegade being able to overcome a weakness that mesmer cant? again... they don't play even remotely similar.

as for making them operate like the scourge.... its a solution, but a less fun one i think.

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:cyninja, dude. the classes are obviously different. i get that your salty about mesmer, but that's not what this is about. did i not say: "if YOU can spot the real mesmer, then good for YOU. but not everyone can" ?

I'm not salty, never was. I merely dismissed your argument as bogus since experienced players have no problem sticking on the real mesmer. That's not an opinion, it's a fact. Even more obvious by the way the class has to be played and how chrono had to be rebalanced and designed as to cover some of the core mesmer shortcommings.

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:now, you can pretend that every single person can spot them and make it the reason why your angry every time a thief ganks you. but again, not what this is about.

I never pretended every single person can spot the mesmer clones. I also never complained about thiefs ganking Mesmers. It's nice to see where you go when trying to argue though, which is generalisations and trying to trigger the other party. Not sure what thief has to do with a renegade thread at all besides it being your avatar.

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:its not the same issue, the classes are not the same. im looking at renegade as though meser did not exist.

True, yet you dismiss the similar problem which another class has had 5 years of having to deal with while you've had how long? 2 Beta weekends? How about we let renegade go live and then see how things perform.

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:but, of course the guy with the chronomancer avatar makes a discussion about the renegade and how to SIMPLY fix it, into an issue bitching about how his favorite class is too weak.

I main chrono, never made a big deal out of it. I also did not make any recommendations about how to fix the renegade and mesmer problem since it is a quite complexe one. Make the summons to strong and balance goes out the window, make them to weak and the classes have problems.

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:mesmer is fine, i only play the class 18% of the time, and i win far more than i loose with it. and i hide myself in the clones.

I'm sure you are very successful in doing so in silver league. You go. See, I can make bogus stuff up too.

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:now, you can imagine yourself to be the god of pvp, and me a scrub. i dont much care. but i get you dont like the idea. go salt elsewhere.

Not even going to comment on this. You have been nothing but hostile towards people with a different opinion than you. Not sure how this is supposed to be a disscussion. Next time just put in your original topic you want people only to blindly agree with you. Saves all of us a lot of time.

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:secondly, which is more powerful, a warband member running its full course, or a member being summoned and detonating as ive suggested?

the detonation seems much weaker to me, unless its run its full course and gets popped in its last few second of life. otherwise your getting upset about.... what? the renegade being able to overcome a weakness that mesmer cant? again... they don't play even remotely similar.

I honestly don't care about how powerful the detonation is. If it's limited to the unmovable warband it will not solve the core problem. Result: you comming back and complaining down the road about other fixes. Let's just cut the middleman and realise that the suggested solution is bad.

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:its not the same issue, the classes are not the same. im looking at renegade as though meser did not exist.

but, of course the guy with the chronomancer avatar makes a discussion about the renegade and how to SIMPLY fix it, into an issue bitching about how his favorite class is too weak.

And this is the problem. The classes are not the same, at all, yet the problem is. And if you were being honest with yourself you'd know that the problems renegade has with its utility skills are not as bad as the problems that mesmer as an entire class has. As a rev, you could just ignore the renegade elite if you wanted, and you could ignore the problem (not a good solution, but its there at least). Mesmer's can't even do that, and most of our personal damage is tied up in summons that are easily destroyed. The problems that renegade faces are the same problems that mesmer faces, but on a smaller scale. So you can't complain about this problem just for renegade and not bring mesmer into the discussion as well.

So, what's the solution for both classes, then? More HP seems like it would be too easy, and a bit overpowered for Mesmer.

On death, they put out an AoE buff that adds Damage Resistance to all other clones/warband nearby, making it harder to kill them all quickly?

@Palador.2170 said:So, what's the solution for both classes, then? More HP seems like it would be too easy, and a bit overpowered for Mesmer.

On death, they put out an AoE buff that adds Damage Resistance to all other clones/warband nearby, making it harder to kill them all quickly?

That's just it, there is no simple fix or solution for temporary summons. Guardians have had their spirit weapons reworked to use the ammo system which has made their version of temporary summons immensly more useful (this would not work on Mesmer due to summons and shatter interaction, might work for Renegade if combined with making the summon skill cheaper).

Coming from a mesmer perspective and what has been tried and/or done:

• summons/pets are immune to aoe damage and will only take damage if targeted. This was a huge improvement for Mesmers, Necromancers, Rangers and Engineers. It moved most pets from trash tier to sort of useable
• initial immunity time was given to phantasms of Mesmers so they could perform at least 1 attack. Maybe something similar to this could be added to renegade pets on a limited scale. Say 1.5-2 seconds to provide a minimum amount of damage
• chronomancer got a lot of resummon abilities basically solving the problem by providing an ambudance of resummononable pets. Would obviously not work as well for Renegade

That's where we are at right now. The best solution would be to have Renegade release, see for which game mode it's designed (PvE, Spvp or WvW) and then implement fixes and rebalance to make it usable and useful for that game mode. It definately will not be "simple" and will have to potentially go way futher than simple adding on death effects.

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Palador.2170 said:So, what's the solution for both classes, then? More HP seems like it would be too easy, and a bit overpowered for Mesmer.

On death, they put out an AoE buff that adds Damage Resistance to all other clones/warband nearby, making it harder to kill them all quickly?

• summons/pets are immune to aoe damage and will only take damage if targeted. This was a huge improvement for Mesmers, Necromancers, Rangers and Engineers. It moved most pets from trash tier to sort of useable
• initial immunity time was given to phantasms of Mesmers so they could perform at least 1 attack. Maybe something similar to this could be added to renegade pets on a limited scale. Say 1.5-2 seconds to provide a minimum amount of damage
• chronomancer got a lot of resummon abilities basically solving the problem by providing an ambudance of resummononable pets. Would obviously not work as well for Renegade

I dont think anet releases a spec with a game type in mind.

@Demeth.5816 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Palador.2170 said:So, what's the solution for both classes, then? More HP seems like it would be too easy, and a bit overpowered for Mesmer.

On death, they put out an AoE buff that adds Damage Resistance to all other clones/warband nearby, making it harder to kill them all quickly?

• summons/pets are immune to aoe damage and will only take damage if targeted. This was a huge improvement for Mesmers, Necromancers, Rangers and Engineers. It moved most pets from trash tier to sort of useable
• initial immunity time was given to phantasms of Mesmers so they could perform at least 1 attack. Maybe something similar to this could be added to renegade pets on a limited scale. Say 1.5-2 seconds to provide a minimum amount of damage
• chronomancer got a lot of resummon abilities basically solving the problem by providing an ambudance of resummononable pets. Would obviously not work as well for Renegade

Considering how custom tailored some of the generation 2 elites are (see spellbreaker and soulbeast for example) I think you are wrong. Then again, maybe their balance is just way off.

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Palador.2170 said:So, what's the solution for both classes, then? More HP seems like it would be too easy, and a bit overpowered for Mesmer.

On death, they put out an AoE buff that adds Damage Resistance to all other clones/warband nearby, making it harder to kill them all quickly?

Nope. It might have made the GS spirit do more damage, but the others got worse or are still as useless as before (just look at the shield spirit). Not only that, but they're just generic AoEs now, completely unaffected by your other traits (can't put aegis on them to do damage, cant put retal on them to take damage, can't get more justice procs, etc).

The problem with your perspective is you're willing to lump all summoned entities together under a single umbrella and disregard what the profession itself needs to get out of them.

So what does Renegade need to accomplish with their summoned skills? After that, you can then examine Rev's tools and possible changes to make that happen. There's no need to divert attention to another profession.

@Leo G.4501 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Palador.2170 said:So, what's the solution for both classes, then? More HP seems like it would be too easy, and a bit overpowered for Mesmer.

On death, they put out an AoE buff that adds Damage Resistance to all other clones/warband nearby, making it harder to kill them all quickly?

I'm lumping all summoned entities together since they all share a common problem: that being none of them are fire and forget but designed to run their full duration which under current game design and mechanics does not work (except for shatter mesmer in spvp or wvw maybe which puts everything into his initial burst).

The details of what the summoned skill is supposed to do while being up is a matter of class balance.

It is funny though, every since more previously mesmer unique mechanics make it into the game:

• mantras being on firebrand
• guardian summons and renegade working similar to clones/phantasms

people have been very vocal about how bad those mechanics work. Even though they are basically mesmer versions on steroids (firebrand mantras are way supperior to mesmer mantras for example). Yet when disscussing changes and balance ideas, everyone is a unique snowflake instead of looking at the class which had to deal with these issues the longest for suggestions on how to fix them.

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Leo G.4501 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Palador.2170 said:So, what's the solution for both classes, then? More HP seems like it would be too easy, and a bit overpowered for Mesmer.

On death, they put out an AoE buff that adds Damage Resistance to all other clones/warband nearby, making it harder to kill them all quickly?

But phantasms/clones don't have a duration and it can be a stretch to even say they are all meant to run at max duration for max effect, especially considering the subject (i believe Renegade has a summon with an upkeep cost).

So your premise is flawed.

@Leo G.4501 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Leo G.4501 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Palador.2170 said:So, what's the solution for both classes, then? More HP seems like it would be too easy, and a bit overpowered for Mesmer.

On death, they put out an AoE buff that adds Damage Resistance to all other clones/warband nearby, making it harder to kill them all quickly?

How is my premise flawed? Isn't the Renegades summon expected to run its full duration to work its maximum effect? Is the core problem not that they are prohibited from running their full duration?

What does summon cost have to do with anything? Mesmer phantasms have cooldowns, do Renegade summons have cooldowns? Same principle, different execution.

Yes, mesmer phantasms gain additional value the longer they are up. What good is that though if they are never up that long? Say against experienced players in spvp, due to despaning after target death in pve or mass aoe in wvw? You are taking an ideal situtaion for your argument which is so unlikely that it can be omited.

That being said, you are way into class balance already instead of game mechanic balance when being so class focused. The problem is a common problem for all temporary summons.

@Cyninja.2954 said:How is my premise flawed? Isn't the Renegades summon expected to run its full duration to work its maximum effect? Is the core problem not that they are prohibited from running their full duration?

What does summon cost have to do with anything? Mesmer phantasms have cooldowns, do Renegade summons have cooldowns? Same principle, different execution.

Yes, mesmer phantasms gain additional value the longer they are up. What good is that though if they are never up that long? Say against experienced players in spvp, due to despaning after target death in pve or mass aoe in wvw? You are taking an ideal situtaion for your argument which is so unlikely that it can be omited.

That being said, you are way into class balance already instead of game mechanic balance when being so class focused. The problem is a common problem for all temporary summons.

So you get that what the profession gets out of their summons is a profession balance issue. If you can understand that, then surely you understand that what the problems are and the solutions to go about solving said problems are also a profession balance issue.

@Leo G.4501 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:How is my premise flawed? Isn't the Renegades summon expected to run its full duration to work its maximum effect? Is the core problem not that they are prohibited from running their full duration?

What does summon cost have to do with anything? Mesmer phantasms have cooldowns, do Renegade summons have cooldowns? Same principle, different execution.

Yes, mesmer phantasms gain additional value the longer they are up. What good is that though if they are never up that long? Say against experienced players in spvp, due to despaning after target death in pve or mass aoe in wvw? You are taking an ideal situtaion for your argument which is so unlikely that it can be omited.

That being said, you are way into class balance already instead of game mechanic balance when being so class focused. The problem is a common problem for all temporary summons.

Arenanet could try to solve the issue globaly (say designing and balancing temporary summons with a short invul period in mind) and have the issue solved for the rest of the game instead of having to find custom solutions per class.

Or they could have to deal with the same problem over and over again each time they add temporary summons.

Somehow I find solution 1 more elegant but hey bandaid fixes is a way to go too.