So, I installed ARC DPS....

....and while doing T4 fractals I am consistently top damage dealer on scourge. Yes I get temporarily outdone when DH, FB or Weaver/Tempest burst, but I am always in the top 2 (usually first) for consistent high dps. Of course, Fractals are different than raids but still, considering that it is usually pug groups with no boons, using sub par food, running around which throws off rotation a bit and not using more damaging utilities, I think that speaks volumes. Am I saying we're the best? Hell no, but we're still in a decent enough place for most content.

(Still hoping for a Demonic Lore split where the PvE version has no ICD on burn application though)

It means NOTHING. Pug factals, people run random builds, hell ive been in loads with no food and running my own WvW build. Performance in them means very, very little. Same for performance in dungeons. Means nothing. Only Raid performance matters. Though for me, that doesnt matter anyway because i dont raid and spend 99% of my time in WvW.

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:It means NOTHING. Pug factals, people run random builds, hell ive been in loads with no food and running my own WvW build. Performance in them means very, very little. Same for performance in dungeons. Means nothing. Only Raid performance matters. Though for me, that doesnt matter anyway because i dont raid and spend 99% of my time in WvW.

Isn't that a myopic view of the game? Raids aren't the only mode this game is made for. Unless you're being sarcastic of course.

@Methuselah.4376 said:Isn't that a myopic view of the game? Raids aren't the only mode this game is made for. Unless you're being sarcastic of course.

No what i am saying. You cant take the performance from one game mode, to say the performance of a class/spec is good in another. Factals and as you pointed out many pugs dont run proper (or any food) meta builds or anything. So being top DPS on that doesnt mean much outside of that specific situation.

The same could be said for my build. Is it good? Yes. Does it work well in WvW? Yes. Does that mean it would be good in other modes? No. Does that mean that the class/spec is good in other modes? No.

@ op

congrats, you discovered that pugs are bad.

Yeah, you basically discovered that we're good for 95% of the game, but the last 5% is what has everyone in an uproar. Someone linked in the 'necros are a meme' about real raid DPS logs and we're exactly middle of the pack. Half do more than we do, half do less.

lol people saying pugs are bad.. everyones a pug if you dont know them.. even in raids

@Kanto.1659 said:Yeah, you basically discovered that we're good for 95% of the game, but the last 5% is what has everyone in an uproar. Someone linked in the 'necros are a meme' about real raid DPS logs and we're exactly middle of the pack. Half do more than we do, half do less.

@Kanto.1659 said:Yeah, you basically discovered that we're good for 95% of the game, but the last 5% is what has everyone in an uproar. Someone linked in the 'necros are a meme' about real raid DPS logs and we're exactly middle of the pack. Half do more than we do, half do less.

That half thats doing less is support and provides healing and/or damage boons.

Yes, scourges are strong. If scourge players say scourges aren't strong, it's because they don't want to get nerfed, which is fine, but scourges are strong. Hooray!

Edit: I haven't had an opportunity to raid, so my experience comes from fractals, PvP, and WvW. In those modes, I would contend that scourges are strong.

@Thaaddy.4075 said:

@Kanto.1659 said:Yeah, you basically discovered that we're good for 95% of the game, but the last 5% is what has everyone in an uproar. Someone linked in the 'necros are a meme' about real raid DPS logs and we're exactly middle of the pack. Half do more than we do, half do less.

@Kanto.1659 said:Yeah, you basically discovered that we're good for 95% of the game, but the last 5% is what has everyone in an uproar. Someone linked in the 'necros are a meme' about real raid DPS logs and we're exactly middle of the pack. Half do more than we do, half do less.

You know, having raided earlier this week, I can honestly say (and I know this is a very unpopular opinion) that barriers where actually useful as a form of support. So considering we bring that, being half-way on dps is not bad at all.

@Kalibri.5861 said:Yes, scourges are strong. If scourge players say scourges aren't strong, it's because they don't want to get nerfed, which is fine, but scourges are strong. Hooray!

Edit: I haven't had an opportunity to raid, so my experience comes from fractals, PvP, and WvW. In those modes, I would contend that scourges are strong.

They are strong, in specific situations. You roam and get jumped by someone from Range. Well. You're dead. When roaming. You come up against anyone with range and decent condi removal. The Scourge will struggle. Blobs and zergs you could run white gear, no traits and just ranged weapons and you will do well.

@HardRider.2980 said:

lol people saying pugs are bad.. everyones a pug if you dont know them.. even in raids

ok i should've said "majority of pugs", happy?

@Methuselah.4376 said:

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:It means NOTHING. Pug factals, people run random builds, hell ive been in loads with no food and running my own WvW build. Performance in them means very, very little. Same for performance in dungeons. Means nothing. Only Raid performance matters. Though for me, that doesnt matter anyway because i dont raid and spend 99% of my time in WvW.

Balance should never use a metric that is anything other than the top echelon of a game. It's not an elitist attitude, it's an understanding of how it's much healthier fora game to have game balance impress a trickle-down effect onto the game's landscape rather than making a bunch of low-end pandering changes which would only rub the top-end the wrong way by virtue of how the low-end changes naturally don't take the existence of the top-end into account.

Condi Scourge is 5th in DPS in actual raid conditions. The golem isn't everything.

@mygamingid.5816 said:Condi Scourge is 5th in DPS in actual raid conditions. The golem isn't everything.

Considering that 4-5/10 slots are hardlocked and there is no rule against taking multiples of a particular class, 5th place in the "all I do is DPS" pool is pretty abysmal.

@Swagg.9236 said:Considering that 4-5/10 slots are hardlocked and there is no rule against taking multiples of a particular class, 5th place in the "all I do is DPS" pool is pretty abysmal.

I agree that target DPS is not that great and could use some improvement (hopefully core necro buffs). On the other hand, scourge condi spread/cleave really helps a lot of encounters where mesmer pull or ele clear are required to some extend. Epi and area damage of shades and other abilities go through adds, turrets, spears and such like a hot knive through butter. I dont want necro damage to stay as it currently is but it is also not that terrible as people pretend it is if you look at the big picture.

@Swagg.9236 said:

@mygamingid.5816 said:Condi Scourge is 5th in DPS in actual raid conditions. The golem isn't everything.

I don't even know why people even bother Raiding in this game, with a Raiding community sick enough to exclude half of the PVE players because of their choice of main seems like toxic people I wouldn't want to waste my limited free time with.

If I'm in the mood to Raid I'll just do that in Wow instead

@Swagg.9236 said:

@mygamingid.5816 said:Condi Scourge is 5th in DPS in actual raid conditions. The golem isn't everything.

For the top 1%, Condi Scourge is ~12% behind the leader (Condi Weaver) and ~7% behind the Condi Mirage since the patch. It would probably be closer if more tryhards didn't ignore it out of habit.

If you tiered actual DPS instead of garbage golem numbers, they rank as Weaver (Power or Condi) > Condi Mirage > Condi Scourge = Condi Daredevil > Condi Renegade. Then you have a dropoff to Holosmith (Power or Condi) and another to Condi Soulbeast and Power Tempest. If you have Holosmiths, Daredevils, or Soulbeasts on your team, you can do better with a Scourge.

@mygamingid.5816 said:

@Swagg.9236 said:

@mygamingid.5816 said:Condi Scourge is 5th in DPS in actual raid conditions. The golem isn't everything.

Soulbeasts, probably not, since they're bringing Spotter+Spirits+One Wolf Pack.

@mygamingid.5816 said:

@Swagg.9236 said:

@mygamingid.5816 said:Condi Scourge is 5th in DPS in actual raid conditions. The golem isn't everything.

The 99th percentile Scourge boss DPS stat on Raidar is inflated by Epidemic pings. It's even less valid than Golem numbers. I would recommend using Mursaat Overseer logs for the most accurate numbers.

cairn is the best for that imo, MO still has epi in the fight. but you shouldn't discredit epidemic, it makes reaper/scourge very competitive on few bosses when used correctly.

@Sublimatio.6981 said:cairn is the best for that imo, MO still has epi in the fight. but you shouldn't discredit epidemic, it makes reaper/scourge very competitive on few bosses when used correctly.

I actually forgot you could Epi off of the small statues. My bad. My static never runs 2 Necros so I rarely get to ping properly.That said, MO and Cairn have almost identical 99th percentile Scourge DPS.

Them 99th percentiles on Weaver and Mirage at Cairn tho

All this pve dps stuff is dumb. All i know is that scourge (condi) needs a heavy nerf to get rid of pirateshipping in wvw, and make it interesting again.

I'm pretty sure most ppl that bash scourge in terms of raiding don't actually use one or haven't played with decent ones they. Their personal dps is high enough that when you factor in epidemic and shade placement the cleave they output is insane which is pretty much why you would be using a scourge in the first place. Pretty much makes any fight that involves adds trivial they can cleave with epi and shades. The only place I personally wouldn't use a scourge is on a speedrun kill or any boss that has no real adds.

@Lalainnia.3598 said:I'm pretty sure most ppl that bash scourge in terms of raiding don't actually use one or haven't played with decent ones they.i play exclusively necro since beta but that doesn't mean i can't acknowledge the uselessness of the class. only aesthetic keeps me playing it. though i am very frustrated that anet doesn't try harder to make necro (and power rev/ranger) a strong pve class