Now we need Mirage Clone Fix

Anet "fixed" the unintended shade behavior for scourge and it made scourge useless drastically.Now we have Clone Mirage build which does more than everyone and it looks like unintended as well.It does too much dps in any scenario. Can you fix it and make clones useless like Scourge's shades useless? So we can have a proper balance more or less.The clone thingy looks like a bug to me.

Do you even know where the bug is on mirage that allows it to deal so much damage? Hint, its not the clones, its one of the axe skills.

Only bug is weaver doing 15k more than anyone else.. this is only here to get players to try different classes..

Except, this bug has them doing more damage than Weavers, by a good margin.

For reference:Large hitbox:Clone Mirage: 45596Arcane Weaver: 41903Air Weaver: 41703Radiance/Virtues DH: 33091

Small hitbox:Clone Mirage: 42516Phant Mirage 34062Arcane Weaver: 33900Air Weaver: 33644Condi Soulbeast: 33565Stance Share Soulbeast: 33092

https://qtfy.eu/guildwars/benchmarks-11-07-17/

There isn't a single Weaver build that does 15k more than everyone else. It does substantially more on Large hitbox, and it has a great requirement to not have rotations interrupted.

No thanks! Variation is good.

I prefer that each class has their own uniqueness, and the clone mechanic is nice. Necro has epidemic, the single highest damage skill in the game when used correctly. Weaver has the special power of doing 15k more damage for exactly one raid boss that is designed to take extra damage from power and is stunned for the whole of the burn phase (ie KC). Rangers has a healing specialization, spirits, and nowdays give 25 might for 10 people. Warrior has banners.

Instead of taking away variation, please add more around classes mechanics that are currently not used in fractals/raids. Stealth from thieves has not seen active usage outside of dungeons which are today dead. Blocks from guardians are unreliable and somewhat underused, through wing 4 did a few steps in the right direction. Engi turrets has only ever been used as a farming tool. Rev is in a bit odd place like ele, but without a unique raid boss where they and only they excel.

@Fatalyz.7168 said:Except, this bug has them doing more damage than Weavers, by a good margin.

For reference:Large hitbox:Clone Mirage: 45596Arcane Weaver: 41903Air Weaver: 41703Radiance/Virtues DH: 33091

Small hitbox:Clone Mirage: 42516Phant Mirage 34062Arcane Weaver: 33900Air Weaver: 33644Condi Soulbeast: 33565Stance Share Soulbeast: 33092

https://qtfy.eu/guildwars/benchmarks-11-07-17/

There isn't a single Weaver build that does 15k more than everyone else. It does substantially more on Large hitbox, and it has a great requirement to not have rotations interrupted.

reality checkhttps://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats/4/area-17154and btw qt didnt test anything

double post gg .

while i agree mirage bug should be fixed . but it should still be one of top dps , what you expect . it is supposed to be selfish single target melee dps spec .

if you feel devs have poorly designed scourge for its "support potential“. then ask buff for scourge . don't bring your irrational salty to other class .your class got something that's useless in only raid , now you feel you need to make other class core mechanic useless (clone isn't even a mirage thing ). with that hostile attitude , no one is going to take you seriously . how about spending less time to whine about other class and offering actual constructive suggestion to your class balance ?

@musu.9205 said:

@Fatalyz.7168 said:Except, this bug has them doing more damage than Weavers, by a good margin.

For reference:Large hitbox:Clone Mirage: 45596Arcane Weaver: 41903Air Weaver: 41703Radiance/Virtues DH: 33091

Small hitbox:Clone Mirage: 42516Phant Mirage 34062Arcane Weaver: 33900Air Weaver: 33644Condi Soulbeast: 33565Stance Share Soulbeast: 33092

https://qtfy.eu/guildwars/benchmarks-11-07-17/

There isn't a single Weaver build that does 15k more than everyone else. It does substantially more on Large hitbox, and it has a great requirement to not have rotations interrupted.

Not sure what this is supposed to be a "reality check" of. I don't see Weaver doing 15k more than everyone else.

@Fatalyz.7168 said:

@musu.9205 said:

@Fatalyz.7168 said:Except, this bug has them doing more damage than Weavers, by a good margin.

For reference:Large hitbox:Clone Mirage: 45596Arcane Weaver: 41903Air Weaver: 41703Radiance/Virtues DH: 33091

Small hitbox:Clone Mirage: 42516Phant Mirage 34062Arcane Weaver: 33900Air Weaver: 33644Condi Soulbeast: 33565Stance Share Soulbeast: 33092

https://qtfy.eu/guildwars/benchmarks-11-07-17/

There isn't a single Weaver build that does 15k more than everyone else. It does substantially more on Large hitbox, and it has a great requirement to not have rotations interrupted.

i meant , you can clearly see mirage is not top dps for every single boss , half maybe , and the dps difference isn't that much unlike on benchmark golems .which means what you said " Except, this bug has them doing more damage than Weavers, by a good margin." is not true .it's surely noticeable on boss like cairn but that's the single case .on the other hand , ele does do nearly 10k more dps than every other class on kc . btw breakbar is even more broken in fractal .

more reality checkhttps://qtfy.eu/guildwars/mesmer/clone-mirage/https://qtfy.eu/guildwars/elementalist/staff-weaver/it's funny that people post benchmark and think that's all .

So, those logs you posted, where does it show that they were running the Clone Mirage build, or is that just records of anyone that is playing Mirage?

What I posted shows actual difference of numbers in a controlled environment (ie we know the build being used, and it was the highest reported finding that they recieved). In your logs, it doesn't show the build being used, nor do we know anything about the quality of the people playing that Elite Spec (we don't know more than that they are playing Mirage).

I am merely arguing that the current bug allows Clone Mirage to overperform, and provided a comparison to illustrate my point. I was using that bug, to counter one guys argument that Weaver does 15k more than anything else. Which just isn't true, and even less so in actual encounters. Aside from the obvious exception of KC.

Raidar actually provides you with accumulated totals which show the performance of median, 90th and 99th percentile, so you can certainly see where best and mediocre players fall. Yes it does not discriminate the types of builds used (ie I don't think there is a way to tell clone mirage from phantasm mirage), but a condition mirage is a non awful average, especially if you can filter for high percentiles. Yes, I am sure mirages will eat a nerf, but I doubt it needs a massive one. A lot of rotation is simply not usable on some bosses. There is a reason why qT themselves do not recommend mirage on 5 bosses and only list it as meta on 2. It is the same reason why I don't see staff weavers eating a massive nerf even though they will easily outperform everyone on KC. Too situational.

@Fatalyz.7168 said:So, those logs you posted, where does it show that they were running the Clone Mirage build, or is that just records of anyone that is playing Mirage?

What I posted shows actual difference of numbers in a controlled environment (ie we know the build being used, and it was the highest reported finding that they recieved). In your logs, it doesn't show the build being used, nor do we know anything about the quality of the people playing that Elite Spec (we don't know more than that they are playing Mirage).

I am merely arguing that the current bug allows Clone Mirage to overperform, and provided a comparison to illustrate my point. I was using that bug, to counter one guys argument that Weaver does 15k more than anything else. Which just isn't true, and even less so in actual encounters. Aside from the obvious exception of KC.

first of all , im not the one who said weaver does 15 k dps than anyone else but he might just remember the number before balance patch which is almost true . and 10k more dps isn't much less of a problem .

secondly ,the number you showed is on golem aka not actual raid .you can use fancy words like a controlled environment but we all know that didn't happen in actual raids . i also posted qt class page you can clearly see what's meta for them , and weaver wins their spot for most bosses .and on gw2 raidar the dark green bar show the 99th percentile of mirage players dps which mean best of all . it's not random. stop saying we don't know what people are playing when they got best dps . you won't assume best weaver dps number is done by dagger anyway .

third ”I am merely arguing that the current bug allows Clone Mirage to overperform,“ except that's not what you said , what you said is " Except, this bug has them doing more damage than Weavers, by a good margin" .now i'm curious what you mean by a good margin in actual raid ? coz log shows total different story , and best speedclear guilds chose weaver over mirage for most bosses with good reasons . that's why it's called reality check ,unless you can kill golem to get li .raid log is reality check , more than any golem benchmark .

https://snowcrows.com/builds/

check every benchmark for each boss , you will understand what i meant . clone mirage is bugged and result as high dps on large hitbox . but even with that it hardly overperform others due to awful utility ,nearly no aoe and melee spec without good cc . btw in a less experienced group ,those disadvantages will show up more often.

in the end , you just posted the benchmark numbers without understanding each class on that list .even anet fixes that bug , mirage should be one of top tier dps spec by design which in your word "overperform".

what's your "this bug " anyway ?the op didn't get the bug right , hint someone else in this thread did give the correct answer .you guys barely understand what you are talking about but hey we ask for a fix to a non existing bug .

@musu.9205 said:what's your "this bug " anyway ?the op didn't get the bug right , hint someone else in this thread did give the correct answer .you guys barely understand what you are talking about but hey we ask for a fix to a non existing bug .

But but but, something has to get nerfed, we are on the forums after all.

On a more serious note this topic related: if people here bothered to read the mesmer forums they'd know that just about most experienced mesmers are in agreement the bug needs fixing. This issue was discovered and discussed not even 1-2 hours post patch when most of us realized what had happened with the patch. I'm sorry to say, all you mesmer fotm players and complainers: you are late to the party.

@musu.9205 said:on the other hand , ele does do nearly 10k more dps than every other class on kc .

Maybe Anet should create a raid boss which take double damage from confussion stacks and half damage from everything else. This would make mesmers the new super DPS class which would be massive overpowered, but limited for that single boss.

@Belorn.2659 said:

@musu.9205 said:on the other hand , ele does do nearly 10k more dps than every other class on kc .

We already have that: the boss is called Matthias and favors mesmers greatly. What problem are we exactly addressing with this change though?

The issue isn't 1 boss, it's that ele is and has been superior on almost every raid boss and outclasses others by 10k on KC.

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Belorn.2659 said:

@musu.9205 said:on the other hand , ele does do nearly 10k more dps than every other class on kc .

Lets go through the bosses based on raidar for average boss DPS for the top 2 dps classes. I am using the 99th percentile.

VG: Weaver: 20052, Mirage: 19521, Difference: 531Gor: Weaver: 23152, Mirage: 22230, Difference: 922Sab: Holosmith: 22415, Renegade: 21549, Difference: 866Sloth: Mirage: 23922, Weaver: 20773, Difference: 3149Matt: Mirage: 24789, Weaver: 23269, Difference: 1520KC: Weaver: 35959, Holosmith: 30106, Difference: 5853Xera: Mirage: 16742, Renegade: 16055, Difference: 687Cairn: Weaver: 41289, Mirage: 40643, Difference: 646Mo: Weaver: 35432, Mirage: 33997, Difference: 1435Sam: Weaver: 16407, Mirage: 16067, Difference: 340Deimos: Weaver: 23027, Holosmith: 22019, Difference: 1008

Conclusion: Average difference between top 1 and top 2 is 1541. For the 7 bosses which weaver has top DPS, the average difference is 1533, and if we remove KC it is 813. For the 4 bosses which weaver is not top DPS the average difference is 1555. Weaver are not in top 2 for 2 bosses, while Mirage are not in top 2 in 3 bosses.

If we remove the two out liners that is KC and sloth, the average DPS of top 2 is 3.6% less than top 1. This show that the problem is not on the class level but rather on the design of the bosses.

First, about Weaver:All these posts about Weaver being top dps. Yes Weaver should be on top of the dps charts, the game isn't only about Raid efficiency and it shouldn't be.Weaver is a proper glass cannon that is killed instantly by many attacks and that's how the game is balanced around.Exercise: Find two Water Djinns in a narrow space and fight them. First, solo as a Staff dps Weaver, you'll probably need to move (a lot) and if you are using the "meta" raid build it will be a hard fight. Heck I'm sure a vast majority of those "raiders" Weaver players would die to a single Water Djinn when soloing, but that's beside the point.Now swap to a full meta condi Soulbeast and kill them both at the same time, with minimal dodging required. A half-blind monkey can kill 2 Water Djinn on a condi Soulbeast without even trying. Same with Scourge and many many other "meta" builds. The difference when soloing in the open world between the meta dps builds is staggering. And then go to pvp with those builds, a condi Scourge can survive even in pvp with minimal changes, a Holosmith is very similar, a condi Soulbeast plays similarly, a Dragonhunter is mostly the same. A dps Weaver in pvp? Probably a meme. "I'm first on the raid dps charts on stationary targets with large hitboxes!"

Dps Weavers reach their full damage potential by having someone else heal and protect them, other builds do not require the same amount of baby-sitting to be successful.

Second, about Mirage:They'll get their nerf don't worry, maybe even today, otherwise with S4 next week.

@Belorn.2659 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Belorn.2659 said:

@musu.9205 said:on the other hand , ele does do nearly 10k more dps than every other class on kc .

Thank you for showing a few renegades in there!! yea us!! ;)BTW, the raidar pages don't open for me, any clues?

@Belorn.2659 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Belorn.2659 said:

@musu.9205 said:on the other hand , ele does do nearly 10k more dps than every other class on kc .

TBH it would be more interesting if you used the median instead of the 99th percentile.

@maddoctor.2738 said:First, about Weaver:All these posts about Weaver being top dps. Yes Weaver should be on top of the dps charts, the game isn't only about Raid efficiency and it shouldn't be.Weaver is a proper glass cannon that is killed instantly by many attacks and that's how the game is balanced around.Exercise: Find two Water Djinns in a narrow space and fight them. First, solo as a Staff dps Weaver, you'll probably need to move (a lot) and if you are using the "meta" raid build it will be a hard fight. Heck I'm sure a vast majority of those "raiders" Weaver players would die to a single Water Djinn when soloing, but that's beside the point.Now swap to a full meta condi Soulbeast and kill them both at the same time, with minimal dodging required. A half-blind monkey can kill 2 Water Djinn on a condi Soulbeast without even trying. Same with Scourge and many many other "meta" builds. The difference when soloing in the open world between the meta dps builds is staggering. And then go to pvp with those builds, a condi Scourge can survive even in pvp with minimal changes, a Holosmith is very similar, a condi Soulbeast plays similarly, a Dragonhunter is mostly the same. A dps Weaver in pvp? Probably a meme. "I'm first on the raid dps charts on stationary targets with large hitboxes!"

Dps Weavers reach their full damage potential by having someone else heal and protect them, other builds do not require the same amount of baby-sitting to be successful.

Second, about Mirage:They'll get their nerf don't worry, maybe even today, otherwise with S4 next week.

So ya fuck up the balance due to delusional survival problems cuz of bad players? I saw people solo bosses with eles. eles have reflects, focus survival skills, evades.what does the scourges has? barrier for 2 seconds? are ya kidding me? so because bad players can't utilize a class properly let's destroy a class that has no survival skills at all in dps in both categories and make him useless. great logic. in raids and open world ya can play weaver without depending on a healer. hence i played temp and weaver without healer setup in most bosses of the raids. the only healer ya need is like in matthias. i play fractals without a healer even 99 and 100 cm with a weaver without relying on healer. it's about doing basic mechanics. do ya expect to just face tank the mechanics? it's madness. in wow for example the casters are more squishy than the heavy classes but they do more or less the same dps. casters can range and melee while heavy classes can only melee, both require healing regardless of survival cuz the raid and dungeon mechanics. it comes to mechanics not who has more hp/armor. did ya see the weavers in pvp? survive more than necro when they're focused. if necro is focused by at least 3 players he's dead in 3-5 seconds in pvp and he can do nothing about it. he can't even disengage like others. don't give me that excuse 2nd health bar cuz it's not focus survival skill. necro is killable in pve just like everyone else and in pvp he's the easiest to die first.

@Draco.9480 said:I saw people solo bosses with eles. eles have reflects, focus survival skills, evades.

Where are those options in the meta dps build of the elementalist? I'm saying that other pure meta dps builds can survive with only minimal changes, both in all types of other content plus in PVP/WVW. How is that OP dps meta Weaver doing in other forms of content?Care to show us the difference in dps between the meta dps Weaver and those builds that use focus and reflects and swap out of Air or Fire?I saw full dps Weavers in PVP, you sneeze and they die, you have to spec heavily in defense as an Elementalist (any build) to survive in PVP, but guess what, the damage that build deals is a very tiny fraction of the damage the top Weaver dps does in Raids.

@Draco.9480 said:eles have reflects, focus survival skills, evades.They either have all this or dps. Not both. Whereas the meta mirage dps has extra evades built-in. Not to mention lack of channeling skills which root you in place and are essential for your dps.

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Belorn.2659 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Belorn.2659 said:

@musu.9205 said:on the other hand , ele does do nearly 10k more dps than every other class on kc .

Very good suggestion, and doing it gives a very different view of the situation compared to popular opinion.

VG: Holosmith: 14202, Mirage: 12944, Difference: 1258Gor: Mirage: 15657, Daredevil: 15087, Difference: 570Sab: Mirage: 15800, Renegade: 14663, Difference: 1137Sloth: Mirage: 14547, Weaver: 13078, Difference: 1469Matt: Mirage: 14964, Soulbeast: 11163, Difference: 3801KC: Weaver: 24189, Holosmith: 19283, Difference: 4906Xera: Renegade: 11500, Holosmith: 11151, Difference: 349Cairn: Mirage: 25006, Daredevil: 16236, Difference: 8770MO: Mirage: 28070, Daredevil: 24058, Difference: 4012Sam: Mirage: 11796, Weaver: 11412, Difference: 384Deimos: Weaver: 13648, Mirage: 12351, Difference: 1297

Conclusion: Weaver is highest DPS for only 2 bosses when going by median. Mirage is highest DPS for 7. Weaver is in top 2 for 4 bosses, while Mirage is in top 2 for 9 bosses. The highest average difference is Cairn, where Mirage is 9k above anything else on average! KC comes in second place with a 5k difference. The average difference is 2541.

If anyone want to double check my work, the data is public on Raidar through https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats/4

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Draco.9480 said:eles have reflects, focus survival skills, evades.They either have all this or dps. Not both. Whereas the meta mirage dps has extra evades built-in. Not to mention lack of channeling skills which root you in place and are essential for your dps.

still they can solo lupicus faster than necro

and once the bug with Mirage is fixed, where will it come in compared to weaver?

Mirages main benefit right now is it has a very simple rotation and provides very high damage which is pushed even beyond normal thanks to a double hit bug with its axe projectiles. Does weaver suffer from bugs to its damage besides it being very high?