Now we need Mirage Clone Fix — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Now we need Mirage Clone Fix

Anet "fixed" the unintended shade behavior for scourge and it made scourge useless drastically.
Now we have Clone Mirage build which does more than everyone and it looks like unintended as well.
It does too much dps in any scenario. Can you fix it and make clones useless like Scourge's shades useless? So we can have a proper balance more or less.
The clone thingy looks like a bug to me.

<1

Comments

  • OriOri.8724OriOri.8724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Do you even know where the bug is on mirage that allows it to deal so much damage? Hint, its not the clones, its one of the axe skills.

    Eyyyy I unlocked signatures

  • Only bug is weaver doing 15k more than anyone else.. this is only here to get players to try different classes..

  • Fatalyz.7168Fatalyz.7168 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 20, 2017

    Except, this bug has them doing more damage than Weavers, by a good margin.

    For reference:
    Large hitbox:
    Clone Mirage: 45596
    Arcane Weaver: 41903
    Air Weaver: 41703
    Radiance/Virtues DH: 33091

    Small hitbox:
    Clone Mirage: 42516
    Phant Mirage 34062
    Arcane Weaver: 33900
    Air Weaver: 33644
    Condi Soulbeast: 33565
    Stance Share Soulbeast: 33092

    https://qtfy.eu/guildwars/benchmarks-11-07-17/

    There isn't a single Weaver build that does 15k more than everyone else. It does substantially more on Large hitbox, and it has a great requirement to not have rotations interrupted.

  • Belorn.2659Belorn.2659 Member ✭✭✭

    No thanks! Variation is good.

    I prefer that each class has their own uniqueness, and the clone mechanic is nice. Necro has epidemic, the single highest damage skill in the game when used correctly. Weaver has the special power of doing 15k more damage for exactly one raid boss that is designed to take extra damage from power and is stunned for the whole of the burn phase (ie KC). Rangers has a healing specialization, spirits, and nowdays give 25 might for 10 people. Warrior has banners.

    Instead of taking away variation, please add more around classes mechanics that are currently not used in fractals/raids. Stealth from thieves has not seen active usage outside of dungeons which are today dead. Blocks from guardians are unreliable and somewhat underused, through wing 4 did a few steps in the right direction. Engi turrets has only ever been used as a farming tool. Rev is in a bit odd place like ele, but without a unique raid boss where they and only they excel.

  • musu.9205musu.9205 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 20, 2017

    @Fatalyz.7168 said:
    Except, this bug has them doing more damage than Weavers, by a good margin.

    For reference:
    Large hitbox:
    Clone Mirage: 45596
    Arcane Weaver: 41903
    Air Weaver: 41703
    Radiance/Virtues DH: 33091

    Small hitbox:
    Clone Mirage: 42516
    Phant Mirage 34062
    Arcane Weaver: 33900
    Air Weaver: 33644
    Condi Soulbeast: 33565
    Stance Share Soulbeast: 33092

    https://qtfy.eu/guildwars/benchmarks-11-07-17/

    There isn't a single Weaver build that does 15k more than everyone else. It does substantially more on Large hitbox, and it has a great requirement to not have rotations interrupted.

    reality check
    https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats/4/area-17154
    and btw qt didnt test anything

  • musu.9205musu.9205 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 20, 2017

    double post gg .

    while i agree mirage bug should be fixed . but it should still be one of top dps , what you expect . it is supposed to be selfish single target melee dps spec .

    if you feel devs have poorly designed scourge for its "support potential“. then ask buff for scourge . don't bring your irrational salty to other class .
    your class got something that's useless in only raid , now you feel you need to make other class core mechanic useless (clone isn't even a mirage thing ). with that hostile attitude , no one is going to take you seriously . how about spending less time to whine about other class and offering actual constructive suggestion to your class balance ?

  • Fatalyz.7168Fatalyz.7168 Member ✭✭✭

    @musu.9205 said:

    @Fatalyz.7168 said:
    Except, this bug has them doing more damage than Weavers, by a good margin.

    For reference:
    Large hitbox:
    Clone Mirage: 45596
    Arcane Weaver: 41903
    Air Weaver: 41703
    Radiance/Virtues DH: 33091

    Small hitbox:
    Clone Mirage: 42516
    Phant Mirage 34062
    Arcane Weaver: 33900
    Air Weaver: 33644
    Condi Soulbeast: 33565
    Stance Share Soulbeast: 33092

    https://qtfy.eu/guildwars/benchmarks-11-07-17/

    There isn't a single Weaver build that does 15k more than everyone else. It does substantially more on Large hitbox, and it has a great requirement to not have rotations interrupted.

    reality check
    https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats/4/area-17154

    Not sure what this is supposed to be a "reality check" of. I don't see Weaver doing 15k more than everyone else.

  • musu.9205musu.9205 Member ✭✭✭

    @Fatalyz.7168 said:

    @musu.9205 said:

    @Fatalyz.7168 said:
    Except, this bug has them doing more damage than Weavers, by a good margin.

    For reference:
    Large hitbox:
    Clone Mirage: 45596
    Arcane Weaver: 41903
    Air Weaver: 41703
    Radiance/Virtues DH: 33091

    Small hitbox:
    Clone Mirage: 42516
    Phant Mirage 34062
    Arcane Weaver: 33900
    Air Weaver: 33644
    Condi Soulbeast: 33565
    Stance Share Soulbeast: 33092

    https://qtfy.eu/guildwars/benchmarks-11-07-17/

    There isn't a single Weaver build that does 15k more than everyone else. It does substantially more on Large hitbox, and it has a great requirement to not have rotations interrupted.

    reality check
    https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats/4/area-17154

    Not sure what this is supposed to be a "reality check" of. I don't see Weaver doing 15k more than everyone else.

    i meant , you can clearly see mirage is not top dps for every single boss , half maybe , and the dps difference isn't that much unlike on benchmark golems .
    which means what you said " Except, this bug has them doing more damage than Weavers, by a good margin." is not true .
    it's surely noticeable on boss like cairn but that's the single case .
    on the other hand , ele does do nearly 10k more dps than every other class on kc . btw breakbar is even more broken in fractal .

    more reality check
    https://qtfy.eu/guildwars/mesmer/clone-mirage/
    https://qtfy.eu/guildwars/elementalist/staff-weaver/
    it's funny that people post benchmark and think that's all .

  • Fatalyz.7168Fatalyz.7168 Member ✭✭✭

    So, those logs you posted, where does it show that they were running the Clone Mirage build, or is that just records of anyone that is playing Mirage?

    What I posted shows actual difference of numbers in a controlled environment (ie we know the build being used, and it was the highest reported finding that they recieved). In your logs, it doesn't show the build being used, nor do we know anything about the quality of the people playing that Elite Spec (we don't know more than that they are playing Mirage).

    I am merely arguing that the current bug allows Clone Mirage to overperform, and provided a comparison to illustrate my point. I was using that bug, to counter one guys argument that Weaver does 15k more than anything else. Which just isn't true, and even less so in actual encounters. Aside from the obvious exception of KC.

  • Zania.8461Zania.8461 Member ✭✭✭

    Raidar actually provides you with accumulated totals which show the performance of median, 90th and 99th percentile, so you can certainly see where best and mediocre players fall. Yes it does not discriminate the types of builds used (ie I don't think there is a way to tell clone mirage from phantasm mirage), but a condition mirage is a non awful average, especially if you can filter for high percentiles. Yes, I am sure mirages will eat a nerf, but I doubt it needs a massive one. A lot of rotation is simply not usable on some bosses. There is a reason why qT themselves do not recommend mirage on 5 bosses and only list it as meta on 2. It is the same reason why I don't see staff weavers eating a massive nerf even though they will easily outperform everyone on KC. Too situational.

  • musu.9205musu.9205 Member ✭✭✭

    @Fatalyz.7168 said:
    So, those logs you posted, where does it show that they were running the Clone Mirage build, or is that just records of anyone that is playing Mirage?

    What I posted shows actual difference of numbers in a controlled environment (ie we know the build being used, and it was the highest reported finding that they recieved). In your logs, it doesn't show the build being used, nor do we know anything about the quality of the people playing that Elite Spec (we don't know more than that they are playing Mirage).

    I am merely arguing that the current bug allows Clone Mirage to overperform, and provided a comparison to illustrate my point. I was using that bug, to counter one guys argument that Weaver does 15k more than anything else. Which just isn't true, and even less so in actual encounters. Aside from the obvious exception of KC.

    first of all , im not the one who said weaver does 15 k dps than anyone else but he might just remember the number before balance patch which is almost true . and 10k more dps isn't much less of a problem .

    secondly ,the number you showed is on golem aka not actual raid .you can use fancy words like a controlled environment but we all know that didn't happen in actual raids . i also posted qt class page you can clearly see what's meta for them , and weaver wins their spot for most bosses .and on gw2 raidar the dark green bar show the 99th percentile of mirage players dps which mean best of all . it's not random. stop saying we don't know what people are playing when they got best dps . you won't assume best weaver dps number is done by dagger anyway .

    third ”I am merely arguing that the current bug allows Clone Mirage to overperform,“ except that's not what you said , what you said is " Except, this bug has them doing more damage than Weavers, by a good margin" .
    now i'm curious what you mean by a good margin in actual raid ? coz log shows total different story , and best speedclear guilds chose weaver over mirage for most bosses with good reasons . that's why it's called reality check ,unless you can kill golem to get li .raid log is reality check , more than any golem benchmark .

    https://snowcrows.com/builds/

    check every benchmark for each boss , you will understand what i meant . clone mirage is bugged and result as high dps on large hitbox . but even with that it hardly overperform others due to awful utility ,nearly no aoe and melee spec without good cc . btw in a less experienced group ,those disadvantages will show up more often.

    in the end , you just posted the benchmark numbers without understanding each class on that list .
    even anet fixes that bug , mirage should be one of top tier dps spec by design which in your word "overperform".

    what's your "this bug " anyway ?
    the op didn't get the bug right , hint someone else in this thread did give the correct answer .
    you guys barely understand what you are talking about but hey we ask for a fix to a non existing bug .

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 20, 2017

    @musu.9205 said:
    what's your "this bug " anyway ?
    the op didn't get the bug right , hint someone else in this thread did give the correct answer .
    you guys barely understand what you are talking about but hey we ask for a fix to a non existing bug .

    But but but, something has to get nerfed, we are on the forums after all.

    On a more serious note this topic related: if people here bothered to read the mesmer forums they'd know that just about most experienced mesmers are in agreement the bug needs fixing. This issue was discovered and discussed not even 1-2 hours post patch when most of us realized what had happened with the patch. I'm sorry to say, all you mesmer fotm players and complainers: you are late to the party.

  • Belorn.2659Belorn.2659 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 21, 2017

    @musu.9205 said:
    on the other hand , ele does do nearly 10k more dps than every other class on kc .

    Maybe Anet should create a raid boss which take double damage from confussion stacks and half damage from everything else. This would make mesmers the new super DPS class which would be massive overpowered, but limited for that single boss.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Belorn.2659 said:

    @musu.9205 said:
    on the other hand , ele does do nearly 10k more dps than every other class on kc .

    Maybe Anet should create a raid boss which take double damage from confussion stacks and half damage from everything else. This would make mesmers the new super DPS class which would be massive overpowered, but limited for that single boss.

    We already have that: the boss is called Matthias and favors mesmers greatly. What problem are we exactly addressing with this change though?

    The issue isn't 1 boss, it's that ele is and has been superior on almost every raid boss and outclasses others by 10k on KC.

  • Belorn.2659Belorn.2659 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 21, 2017

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Belorn.2659 said:

    @musu.9205 said:
    on the other hand , ele does do nearly 10k more dps than every other class on kc .

    Maybe Anet should create a raid boss which take double damage from confussion stacks and half damage from everything else. This would make mesmers the new super DPS class which would be massive overpowered, but limited for that single boss.

    We already have that: the boss is called Matthias and favors mesmers greatly. What problem are we exactly addressing with this change though?

    The issue isn't 1 boss, it's that ele is and has been superior on almost every raid boss and outclasses others by 10k on KC.

    Lets go through the bosses based on raidar for average boss DPS for the top 2 dps classes. I am using the 99th percentile.

    VG: Weaver: 20052, Mirage: 19521, Difference: 531
    Gor: Weaver: 23152, Mirage: 22230, Difference: 922
    Sab: Holosmith: 22415, Renegade: 21549, Difference: 866
    Sloth: Mirage: 23922, Weaver: 20773, Difference: 3149
    Matt: Mirage: 24789, Weaver: 23269, Difference: 1520
    KC: Weaver: 35959, Holosmith: 30106, Difference: 5853
    Xera: Mirage: 16742, Renegade: 16055, Difference: 687
    Cairn: Weaver: 41289, Mirage: 40643, Difference: 646
    Mo: Weaver: 35432, Mirage: 33997, Difference: 1435
    Sam: Weaver: 16407, Mirage: 16067, Difference: 340
    Deimos: Weaver: 23027, Holosmith: 22019, Difference: 1008

    Conclusion: Average difference between top 1 and top 2 is 1541. For the 7 bosses which weaver has top DPS, the average difference is 1533, and if we remove KC it is 813. For the 4 bosses which weaver is not top DPS the average difference is 1555. Weaver are not in top 2 for 2 bosses, while Mirage are not in top 2 in 3 bosses.

    If we remove the two out liners that is KC and sloth, the average DPS of top 2 is 3.6% less than top 1. This show that the problem is not on the class level but rather on the design of the bosses.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    First, about Weaver:
    All these posts about Weaver being top dps. Yes Weaver should be on top of the dps charts, the game isn't only about Raid efficiency and it shouldn't be.
    Weaver is a proper glass cannon that is killed instantly by many attacks and that's how the game is balanced around.
    Exercise: Find two Water Djinns in a narrow space and fight them. First, solo as a Staff dps Weaver, you'll probably need to move (a lot) and if you are using the "meta" raid build it will be a hard fight. Heck I'm sure a vast majority of those "raiders" Weaver players would die to a single Water Djinn when soloing, but that's beside the point.
    Now swap to a full meta condi Soulbeast and kill them both at the same time, with minimal dodging required. A half-blind monkey can kill 2 Water Djinn on a condi Soulbeast without even trying. Same with Scourge and many many other "meta" builds. The difference when soloing in the open world between the meta dps builds is staggering. And then go to pvp with those builds, a condi Scourge can survive even in pvp with minimal changes, a Holosmith is very similar, a condi Soulbeast plays similarly, a Dragonhunter is mostly the same. A dps Weaver in pvp? Probably a meme. "I'm first on the raid dps charts on stationary targets with large hitboxes!"

    Dps Weavers reach their full damage potential by having someone else heal and protect them, other builds do not require the same amount of baby-sitting to be successful.

    Second, about Mirage:
    They'll get their nerf don't worry, maybe even today, otherwise with S4 next week.

  • Joxer.6024Joxer.6024 Member ✭✭✭

    @Belorn.2659 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Belorn.2659 said:

    @musu.9205 said:
    on the other hand , ele does do nearly 10k more dps than every other class on kc .

    Maybe Anet should create a raid boss which take double damage from confussion stacks and half damage from everything else. This would make mesmers the new super DPS class which would be massive overpowered, but limited for that single boss.

    We already have that: the boss is called Matthias and favors mesmers greatly. What problem are we exactly addressing with this change though?

    The issue isn't 1 boss, it's that ele is and has been superior on almost every raid boss and outclasses others by 10k on KC.

    Lets go through the bosses based on raidar for average boss DPS for the top 2 dps classes. I am using the 99th percentile.

    VG: Weaver: 20052, Mirage: 19521, Difference: 531
    Gor: Weaver: 23152, Mirage: 22230, Difference: 922
    Sab: Holosmith: 22415, Renegade: 21549, Difference: 866
    Sloth: Mirage: 23922, Weaver: 20773, Difference: 3149
    Matt: Mirage: 24789, Weaver: 23269, Difference: 1520
    KC: Weaver: 35959, Holosmith: 30106, Difference: 5853
    Xera: Mirage: 16742, Renegade: 16055, Difference: 687
    Cairn: Weaver: 41289, Mirage: 40643, Difference: 646
    Mo: Weaver: 35432, Mirage: 33997, Difference: 1435
    Sam: Weaver: 16407, Mirage: 16067, Difference: 340
    Deimos: Weaver: 23027, Holosmith: 22019, Difference: 1008

    Conclusion: Average difference between top 1 and top 2 is 1541. For the 7 bosses which weaver has top DPS, the average difference is 1533, and if we remove KC it is 813. For the 4 bosses which weaver is not top DPS the average difference is 1555. Weaver are not in top 2 for 2 bosses, while Mirage are not in top 2 in 3 bosses.

    If we remove the two out liners that is KC and sloth, the average DPS of top 2 is 3.6% less than top 1.

    Thank you for showing a few renegades in there!! yea us!! ;)
    BTW, the raidar pages don't open for me, any clues?

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Belorn.2659 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Belorn.2659 said:

    @musu.9205 said:
    on the other hand , ele does do nearly 10k more dps than every other class on kc .

    Maybe Anet should create a raid boss which take double damage from confussion stacks and half damage from everything else. This would make mesmers the new super DPS class which would be massive overpowered, but limited for that single boss.

    We already have that: the boss is called Matthias and favors mesmers greatly. What problem are we exactly addressing with this change though?

    The issue isn't 1 boss, it's that ele is and has been superior on almost every raid boss and outclasses others by 10k on KC.

    Lets go through the bosses based on raidar for average boss DPS for the top 2 dps classes. I am using the 99th percentile.

    VG: Weaver: 20052, Mirage: 19521, Difference: 531
    Gor: Weaver: 23152, Mirage: 22230, Difference: 922
    Sab: Holosmith: 22415, Renegade: 21549, Difference: 866
    Sloth: Mirage: 23922, Weaver: 20773, Difference: 3149
    Matt: Mirage: 24789, Weaver: 23269, Difference: 1520
    KC: Weaver: 35959, Holosmith: 30106, Difference: 5853
    Xera: Mirage: 16742, Renegade: 16055, Difference: 687
    Cairn: Weaver: 41289, Mirage: 40643, Difference: 646
    Mo: Weaver: 35432, Mirage: 33997, Difference: 1435
    Sam: Weaver: 16407, Mirage: 16067, Difference: 340
    Deimos: Weaver: 23027, Holosmith: 22019, Difference: 1008

    Conclusion: Average difference between top 1 and top 2 is 1541. For the 7 bosses which weaver has top DPS, the average difference is 1533, and if we remove KC it is 813. For the 4 bosses which weaver is not top DPS the average difference is 1555. Weaver are not in top 2 for 2 bosses, while Mirage are not in top 2 in 3 bosses.

    If we remove the two out liners that is KC and sloth, the average DPS of top 2 is 3.6% less than top 1. This show that the problem is not on the class level but rather on the design of the bosses.

    TBH it would be more interesting if you used the median instead of the 99th percentile.

  • Draco.9480Draco.9480 Member ✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    First, about Weaver:
    All these posts about Weaver being top dps. Yes Weaver should be on top of the dps charts, the game isn't only about Raid efficiency and it shouldn't be.
    Weaver is a proper glass cannon that is killed instantly by many attacks and that's how the game is balanced around.
    Exercise: Find two Water Djinns in a narrow space and fight them. First, solo as a Staff dps Weaver, you'll probably need to move (a lot) and if you are using the "meta" raid build it will be a hard fight. Heck I'm sure a vast majority of those "raiders" Weaver players would die to a single Water Djinn when soloing, but that's beside the point.
    Now swap to a full meta condi Soulbeast and kill them both at the same time, with minimal dodging required. A half-blind monkey can kill 2 Water Djinn on a condi Soulbeast without even trying. Same with Scourge and many many other "meta" builds. The difference when soloing in the open world between the meta dps builds is staggering. And then go to pvp with those builds, a condi Scourge can survive even in pvp with minimal changes, a Holosmith is very similar, a condi Soulbeast plays similarly, a Dragonhunter is mostly the same. A dps Weaver in pvp? Probably a meme. "I'm first on the raid dps charts on stationary targets with large hitboxes!"

    Dps Weavers reach their full damage potential by having someone else heal and protect them, other builds do not require the same amount of baby-sitting to be successful.

    Second, about Mirage:
    They'll get their nerf don't worry, maybe even today, otherwise with S4 next week.

    So ya kitten up the balance due to delusional survival problems cuz of bad players? I saw people solo bosses with eles. eles have reflects, focus survival skills, evades.
    what does the scourges has? barrier for 2 seconds? are ya kidding me? so because bad players can't utilize a class properly let's destroy a class that has no survival skills at all in dps in both categories and make him useless. great logic. in raids and open world ya can play weaver without depending on a healer. hence i played temp and weaver without healer setup in most bosses of the raids. the only healer ya need is like in matthias. i play fractals without a healer even 99 and 100 cm with a weaver without relying on healer. it's about doing basic mechanics. do ya expect to just face tank the mechanics? it's madness. in wow for example the casters are more squishy than the heavy classes but they do more or less the same dps. casters can range and melee while heavy classes can only melee, both require healing regardless of survival cuz the raid and dungeon mechanics. it comes to mechanics not who has more hp/armor. did ya see the weavers in pvp? survive more than necro when they're focused. if necro is focused by at least 3 players he's dead in 3-5 seconds in pvp and he can do nothing about it. he can't even disengage like others. don't give me that excuse 2nd health bar cuz it's not focus survival skill. necro is killable in pve just like everyone else and in pvp he's the easiest to die first.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Draco.9480 said:
    I saw people solo bosses with eles. eles have reflects, focus survival skills, evades.

    Where are those options in the meta dps build of the elementalist? I'm saying that other pure meta dps builds can survive with only minimal changes, both in all types of other content plus in PVP/WVW. How is that OP dps meta Weaver doing in other forms of content?
    Care to show us the difference in dps between the meta dps Weaver and those builds that use focus and reflects and swap out of Air or Fire?
    I saw full dps Weavers in PVP, you sneeze and they die, you have to spec heavily in defense as an Elementalist (any build) to survive in PVP, but guess what, the damage that build deals is a very tiny fraction of the damage the top Weaver dps does in Raids.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Draco.9480 said:eles have reflects, focus survival skills, evades.

    They either have all this or dps. Not both. Whereas the meta mirage dps has extra evades built-in. Not to mention lack of channeling skills which root you in place and are essential for your dps.

  • Belorn.2659Belorn.2659 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 21, 2017

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Belorn.2659 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Belorn.2659 said:

    @musu.9205 said:
    on the other hand , ele does do nearly 10k more dps than every other class on kc .

    Maybe Anet should create a raid boss which take double damage from confussion stacks and half damage from everything else. This would make mesmers the new super DPS class which would be massive overpowered, but limited for that single boss.

    We already have that: the boss is called Matthias and favors mesmers greatly. What problem are we exactly addressing with this change though?

    The issue isn't 1 boss, it's that ele is and has been superior on almost every raid boss and outclasses others by 10k on KC.

    Lets go through the bosses based on raidar for average boss DPS for the top 2 dps classes. I am using the 99th percentile.

    VG: Weaver: 20052, Mirage: 19521, Difference: 531
    Gor: Weaver: 23152, Mirage: 22230, Difference: 922
    Sab: Holosmith: 22415, Renegade: 21549, Difference: 866
    Sloth: Mirage: 23922, Weaver: 20773, Difference: 3149
    Matt: Mirage: 24789, Weaver: 23269, Difference: 1520
    KC: Weaver: 35959, Holosmith: 30106, Difference: 5853
    Xera: Mirage: 16742, Renegade: 16055, Difference: 687
    Cairn: Weaver: 41289, Mirage: 40643, Difference: 646
    Mo: Weaver: 35432, Mirage: 33997, Difference: 1435
    Sam: Weaver: 16407, Mirage: 16067, Difference: 340
    Deimos: Weaver: 23027, Holosmith: 22019, Difference: 1008

    Conclusion: Average difference between top 1 and top 2 is 1541. For the 7 bosses which weaver has top DPS, the average difference is 1533, and if we remove KC it is 813. For the 4 bosses which weaver is not top DPS the average difference is 1555. Weaver are not in top 2 for 2 bosses, while Mirage are not in top 2 in 3 bosses.

    If we remove the two out liners that is KC and sloth, the average DPS of top 2 is 3.6% less than top 1. This show that the problem is not on the class level but rather on the design of the bosses.

    TBH it would be more interesting if you used the median instead of the 99th percentile.

    Very good suggestion, and doing it gives a very different view of the situation compared to popular opinion.

    VG: Holosmith: 14202, Mirage: 12944, Difference: 1258
    Gor: Mirage: 15657, Daredevil: 15087, Difference: 570
    Sab: Mirage: 15800, Renegade: 14663, Difference: 1137
    Sloth: Mirage: 14547, Weaver: 13078, Difference: 1469
    Matt: Mirage: 14964, Soulbeast: 11163, Difference: 3801
    KC: Weaver: 24189, Holosmith: 19283, Difference: 4906
    Xera: Renegade: 11500, Holosmith: 11151, Difference: 349
    Cairn: Mirage: 25006, Daredevil: 16236, Difference: 8770
    MO: Mirage: 28070, Daredevil: 24058, Difference: 4012
    Sam: Mirage: 11796, Weaver: 11412, Difference: 384
    Deimos: Weaver: 13648, Mirage: 12351, Difference: 1297

    Conclusion: Weaver is highest DPS for only 2 bosses when going by median. Mirage is highest DPS for 7. Weaver is in top 2 for 4 bosses, while Mirage is in top 2 for 9 bosses. The highest average difference is Cairn, where Mirage is 9k above anything else on average! KC comes in second place with a 5k difference. The average difference is 2541.

    If anyone want to double check my work, the data is public on Raidar through https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats/4

  • Draco.9480Draco.9480 Member ✭✭✭

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Draco.9480 said:eles have reflects, focus survival skills, evades.

    They either have all this or dps. Not both. Whereas the meta mirage dps has extra evades built-in. Not to mention lack of channeling skills which root you in place and are essential for your dps.

    still they can solo lupicus faster than necro

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    and once the bug with Mirage is fixed, where will it come in compared to weaver?

    Mirages main benefit right now is it has a very simple rotation and provides very high damage which is pushed even beyond normal thanks to a double hit bug with its axe projectiles. Does weaver suffer from bugs to its damage besides it being very high?

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Draco.9480 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Draco.9480 said:eles have reflects, focus survival skills, evades.

    They either have all this or dps. Not both. Whereas the meta mirage dps has extra evades built-in. Not to mention lack of channeling skills which root you in place and are essential for your dps.

    still they can solo lupicus faster than necro

    Last I checked Lupi wasn’t a raid boss and they are all talking about raids.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    and once the bug with Mirage is fixed, where will it come in compared to weaver?

    Mirages main benefit right now is it has a very simple rotation and provides very high damage which is pushed even beyond normal thanks to a double hit bug with its axe projectiles. Does weaver suffer from bugs to its damage besides it being very high?

    No, it suffers from needing a lot more support and having a steeper learning curve.

  • Belorn.2659Belorn.2659 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 21, 2017

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    and once the bug with Mirage is fixed, where will it come in compared to weaver?

    Mirages main benefit right now is it has a very simple rotation and provides very high damage which is pushed even beyond normal thanks to a double hit bug with its axe projectiles. Does weaver suffer from bugs to its damage besides it being very high?

    For the median numbers, if we take out mirage then multiple classes goes from second highest to top DPS. Weaver suffer from complicated rotation and high dependence on distorts from support mesmers to achieve their numbers, which is why weaver is not the best choice on a average successful run.

    A way to look at it is what kind of group are we talking about. Is it a random selection of those players who done raiding since the last balance patch, or are we talking about the top 1% who focus on speed clears? Speed clears skips raid mechanics and is generally always in melee range and have less time to do burst damage, and this favor certain type of builds.

  • OriOri.8724OriOri.8724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Belorn.2659 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Belorn.2659 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Belorn.2659 said:

    @musu.9205 said:
    on the other hand , ele does do nearly 10k more dps than every other class on kc .

    Maybe Anet should create a raid boss which take double damage from confussion stacks and half damage from everything else. This would make mesmers the new super DPS class which would be massive overpowered, but limited for that single boss.

    We already have that: the boss is called Matthias and favors mesmers greatly. What problem are we exactly addressing with this change though?

    The issue isn't 1 boss, it's that ele is and has been superior on almost every raid boss and outclasses others by 10k on KC.

    Lets go through the bosses based on raidar for average boss DPS for the top 2 dps classes. I am using the 99th percentile.

    VG: Weaver: 20052, Mirage: 19521, Difference: 531
    Gor: Weaver: 23152, Mirage: 22230, Difference: 922
    Sab: Holosmith: 22415, Renegade: 21549, Difference: 866
    Sloth: Mirage: 23922, Weaver: 20773, Difference: 3149
    Matt: Mirage: 24789, Weaver: 23269, Difference: 1520
    KC: Weaver: 35959, Holosmith: 30106, Difference: 5853
    Xera: Mirage: 16742, Renegade: 16055, Difference: 687
    Cairn: Weaver: 41289, Mirage: 40643, Difference: 646
    Mo: Weaver: 35432, Mirage: 33997, Difference: 1435
    Sam: Weaver: 16407, Mirage: 16067, Difference: 340
    Deimos: Weaver: 23027, Holosmith: 22019, Difference: 1008

    Conclusion: Average difference between top 1 and top 2 is 1541. For the 7 bosses which weaver has top DPS, the average difference is 1533, and if we remove KC it is 813. For the 4 bosses which weaver is not top DPS the average difference is 1555. Weaver are not in top 2 for 2 bosses, while Mirage are not in top 2 in 3 bosses.

    If we remove the two out liners that is KC and sloth, the average DPS of top 2 is 3.6% less than top 1. This show that the problem is not on the class level but rather on the design of the bosses.

    TBH it would be more interesting if you used the median instead of the 99th percentile.

    Very good suggestion, and doing it gives a very different view of the situation compared to popular opinion.

    VG: Holosmith: 14202, Mirage: 12944, Difference: 1258
    Gor: Mirage: 15657, Daredevil: 15087, Difference: 570
    Sab: Mirage: 15800, Renegade: 14663, Difference: 1137
    Sloth: Mirage: 14547, Weaver: 13078, Difference: 1469
    Matt: Mirage: 14964, Soulbeast: 11163, Difference: 3801
    KC: Weaver: 24189, Holosmith: 19283, Difference: 4906
    Xera: Renegade: 11500, Holosmith: 11151, Difference: 349
    Cairn: Mirage: 25006, Daredevil: 16236, Difference: 8770
    MO: Mirage: 28070, Daredevil: 24058, Difference: 4012
    Sam: Mirage: 11796, Weaver: 11412, Difference: 384
    Deimos: Weaver: 13648, Mirage: 12351, Difference: 1297

    Conclusion: Weaver is highest DPS for only 2 bosses when going by median. Mirage is highest DPS for 7. Weaver is in top 2 for 4 bosses, while Mirage is in top 2 for 9 bosses. The highest average difference is Cairn, where Mirage is 9k above anything else on average! KC comes in second place with a 5k difference. The average difference is 2541.

    If anyone want to double check my work, the data is public on Raidar through https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats/4

    Again, wait for the fix to come to mirage, a fix that all mirage players want to see come to the class by the way. That will lower our theoretical top DPS by 5-7k from estimations, and that will bring it down across the board. It may still be the highest median damage class on some bosses due to its relatively easy rotation, but it won't be so far ahead of everyone else and will be in a much better spot overall

    Eyyyy I unlocked signatures

  • @OriOri.8724 said:

    @Belorn.2659 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Belorn.2659 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Belorn.2659 said:

    @musu.9205 said:
    on the other hand , ele does do nearly 10k more dps than every other class on kc .

    Maybe Anet should create a raid boss which take double damage from confussion stacks and half damage from everything else. This would make mesmers the new super DPS class which would be massive overpowered, but limited for that single boss.

    We already have that: the boss is called Matthias and favors mesmers greatly. What problem are we exactly addressing with this change though?

    The issue isn't 1 boss, it's that ele is and has been superior on almost every raid boss and outclasses others by 10k on KC.

    Lets go through the bosses based on raidar for average boss DPS for the top 2 dps classes. I am using the 99th percentile.

    VG: Weaver: 20052, Mirage: 19521, Difference: 531
    Gor: Weaver: 23152, Mirage: 22230, Difference: 922
    Sab: Holosmith: 22415, Renegade: 21549, Difference: 866
    Sloth: Mirage: 23922, Weaver: 20773, Difference: 3149
    Matt: Mirage: 24789, Weaver: 23269, Difference: 1520
    KC: Weaver: 35959, Holosmith: 30106, Difference: 5853
    Xera: Mirage: 16742, Renegade: 16055, Difference: 687
    Cairn: Weaver: 41289, Mirage: 40643, Difference: 646
    Mo: Weaver: 35432, Mirage: 33997, Difference: 1435
    Sam: Weaver: 16407, Mirage: 16067, Difference: 340
    Deimos: Weaver: 23027, Holosmith: 22019, Difference: 1008

    Conclusion: Average difference between top 1 and top 2 is 1541. For the 7 bosses which weaver has top DPS, the average difference is 1533, and if we remove KC it is 813. For the 4 bosses which weaver is not top DPS the average difference is 1555. Weaver are not in top 2 for 2 bosses, while Mirage are not in top 2 in 3 bosses.

    If we remove the two out liners that is KC and sloth, the average DPS of top 2 is 3.6% less than top 1. This show that the problem is not on the class level but rather on the design of the bosses.

    TBH it would be more interesting if you used the median instead of the 99th percentile.

    Very good suggestion, and doing it gives a very different view of the situation compared to popular opinion.

    VG: Holosmith: 14202, Mirage: 12944, Difference: 1258
    Gor: Mirage: 15657, Daredevil: 15087, Difference: 570
    Sab: Mirage: 15800, Renegade: 14663, Difference: 1137
    Sloth: Mirage: 14547, Weaver: 13078, Difference: 1469
    Matt: Mirage: 14964, Soulbeast: 11163, Difference: 3801
    KC: Weaver: 24189, Holosmith: 19283, Difference: 4906
    Xera: Renegade: 11500, Holosmith: 11151, Difference: 349
    Cairn: Mirage: 25006, Daredevil: 16236, Difference: 8770
    MO: Mirage: 28070, Daredevil: 24058, Difference: 4012
    Sam: Mirage: 11796, Weaver: 11412, Difference: 384
    Deimos: Weaver: 13648, Mirage: 12351, Difference: 1297

    Conclusion: Weaver is highest DPS for only 2 bosses when going by median. Mirage is highest DPS for 7. Weaver is in top 2 for 4 bosses, while Mirage is in top 2 for 9 bosses. The highest average difference is Cairn, where Mirage is 9k above anything else on average! KC comes in second place with a 5k difference. The average difference is 2541.

    If anyone want to double check my work, the data is public on Raidar through https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats/4

    Again, wait for the fix to come to mirage, a fix that all mirage players want to see come to the class by the way. That will lower our theoretical top DPS by 5-7k from estimations, and that will bring it down across the board. It may still be the highest median damage class on some bosses due to its relatively easy rotation, but it won't be so far ahead of everyone else and will be in a much better spot overall

    What makes me saddest is the players who play the 45k DPS clone mirage build then proceed to do 12k DPS on Cairn.

  • Zenith.7301Zenith.7301 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I can't even play my Scourge anymore after Anet demolished it, I'd rather have broken mirages as a class option than see the class also nuked into utter irrelevance like they did with scourge.

    The nerf to scourge in PvE is entirely inexcusable, and for that very reason I don't want this balance team anywhere near mirage. Instead of fixing a bug that hits twice they'll decimate the build as they did with scourge and dagger/warhorn tempest.

    I'm hoping sword weaver gets some extra buffs because I'm sick and tired of ele staff. A ranged weapon with the strongest aoe/cleave in the game should NEVER be outdpsing a melee weapon on boss damage.

  • OriOri.8724OriOri.8724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Mikeskies.1536 said:

    @OriOri.8724 said:

    @Belorn.2659 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Belorn.2659 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Belorn.2659 said:

    @musu.9205 said:
    on the other hand , ele does do nearly 10k more dps than every other class on kc .

    Maybe Anet should create a raid boss which take double damage from confussion stacks and half damage from everything else. This would make mesmers the new super DPS class which would be massive overpowered, but limited for that single boss.

    We already have that: the boss is called Matthias and favors mesmers greatly. What problem are we exactly addressing with this change though?

    The issue isn't 1 boss, it's that ele is and has been superior on almost every raid boss and outclasses others by 10k on KC.

    Lets go through the bosses based on raidar for average boss DPS for the top 2 dps classes. I am using the 99th percentile.

    VG: Weaver: 20052, Mirage: 19521, Difference: 531
    Gor: Weaver: 23152, Mirage: 22230, Difference: 922
    Sab: Holosmith: 22415, Renegade: 21549, Difference: 866
    Sloth: Mirage: 23922, Weaver: 20773, Difference: 3149
    Matt: Mirage: 24789, Weaver: 23269, Difference: 1520
    KC: Weaver: 35959, Holosmith: 30106, Difference: 5853
    Xera: Mirage: 16742, Renegade: 16055, Difference: 687
    Cairn: Weaver: 41289, Mirage: 40643, Difference: 646
    Mo: Weaver: 35432, Mirage: 33997, Difference: 1435
    Sam: Weaver: 16407, Mirage: 16067, Difference: 340
    Deimos: Weaver: 23027, Holosmith: 22019, Difference: 1008

    Conclusion: Average difference between top 1 and top 2 is 1541. For the 7 bosses which weaver has top DPS, the average difference is 1533, and if we remove KC it is 813. For the 4 bosses which weaver is not top DPS the average difference is 1555. Weaver are not in top 2 for 2 bosses, while Mirage are not in top 2 in 3 bosses.

    If we remove the two out liners that is KC and sloth, the average DPS of top 2 is 3.6% less than top 1. This show that the problem is not on the class level but rather on the design of the bosses.

    TBH it would be more interesting if you used the median instead of the 99th percentile.

    Very good suggestion, and doing it gives a very different view of the situation compared to popular opinion.

    VG: Holosmith: 14202, Mirage: 12944, Difference: 1258
    Gor: Mirage: 15657, Daredevil: 15087, Difference: 570
    Sab: Mirage: 15800, Renegade: 14663, Difference: 1137
    Sloth: Mirage: 14547, Weaver: 13078, Difference: 1469
    Matt: Mirage: 14964, Soulbeast: 11163, Difference: 3801
    KC: Weaver: 24189, Holosmith: 19283, Difference: 4906
    Xera: Renegade: 11500, Holosmith: 11151, Difference: 349
    Cairn: Mirage: 25006, Daredevil: 16236, Difference: 8770
    MO: Mirage: 28070, Daredevil: 24058, Difference: 4012
    Sam: Mirage: 11796, Weaver: 11412, Difference: 384
    Deimos: Weaver: 13648, Mirage: 12351, Difference: 1297

    Conclusion: Weaver is highest DPS for only 2 bosses when going by median. Mirage is highest DPS for 7. Weaver is in top 2 for 4 bosses, while Mirage is in top 2 for 9 bosses. The highest average difference is Cairn, where Mirage is 9k above anything else on average! KC comes in second place with a 5k difference. The average difference is 2541.

    If anyone want to double check my work, the data is public on Raidar through https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats/4

    Again, wait for the fix to come to mirage, a fix that all mirage players want to see come to the class by the way. That will lower our theoretical top DPS by 5-7k from estimations, and that will bring it down across the board. It may still be the highest median damage class on some bosses due to its relatively easy rotation, but it won't be so far ahead of everyone else and will be in a much better spot overall

    What makes me saddest is the players who play the 45k DPS clone mirage build then proceed to do 12k DPS on Cairn.

    Most GW2 players are not that good honestly.

    Eyyyy I unlocked signatures

  • FaboBabo.3581FaboBabo.3581 Member ✭✭✭✭

    "Mirage needs nerf"
    "It needs a Bug Fix"
    "No bug do Nerf Fast, clones do too much confu stacks"

    • Legend Division

    Mirage since Day 1 - It got better!

  • Belorn.2659Belorn.2659 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 21, 2017

    @Zenith.7301 said:
    A ranged weapon with the strongest aoe/cleave in the game should NEVER be outdpsing a melee weapon on boss damage.

    The range of a class is dictate by the skill with the lowest range, not the weapon. The top 1% who make staff weaver into the strongest DPS do not range bosses from afar using only the subset of skills and traits that allow long range. Check out speed clears for for VG, sab, KC, xera, and a rather obvious aspect pops out. They don't do tactic that require long range.

    A long range golem benchmark would be interesting to see from the community. It should also be said that the strongest aoe/cleave in the game will always be epidemic when used in the right situation. A good necro can single handed deal with shards for xera and removing that mechanic for the rest of the 10 man party, with minimal decrease to boss DPS. A staff ele can't do this.

  • Mini Crinny.6190Mini Crinny.6190 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 21, 2017

    There are some stupid comments in this thread xD Mirage bug will be fixed it took them a while to fix the scourge bug so give it time, as for eles Weaver is meant to do top dps but it also needs Chronos and Healers to be able to do that.

  • Gambit.9501Gambit.9501 Member ✭✭
    edited November 21, 2017

    all I can read is:
    hurr durr imma virgin necro and im taking out my butt-hurt on mesmer

  • Aha if your really desperate to play Scourge I can tell you it’s incredibly OP in PvP and WvW

  • Loboling.5293Loboling.5293 Member ✭✭✭

    @OriOri.8724 said:
    Do you even know where the bug is on mirage that allows it to deal so much damage? Hint, its not the clones, its one of the axe skills.

    All the more reasons for them to nerfs the Greatsword to the ground... For gw2 balance, it's all about identifying the problem, and then implementing nonsense changes, aimed to confuse the players for months at a time. ;P

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Mini Crinny.6190 said:
    Aha if your really desperate to play Scourge I can tell you it’s incredibly OP in PvP and WvW

    You ment to say:"Still is insanely overpowered".

    The level scourge was at at PoF launch was beyond anything, even Spellbreaker. Funny enough, there was necro players on the forums who actually believed the class to be balanced that way.

    It took me a whole I guess 30 minutes of running one of my necros in a condi scrouge build through WvW to realize how silly overpowered the class was at that point in time. 3 days later WvW zergs were composed of 50-60% scourges.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Mini Crinny.6190 said:
    Aha if your really desperate to play Scourge I can tell you it’s incredibly OP in PvP and WvW

    You ment to say:"Still is insanely overpowered".

    The level scourge was at at PoF launch was beyond anything, even Spellbreaker. Funny enough, there was necro players on the forums who actually believed the class to be balanced that way.

    It took me a whole I guess 30 minutes of running one of my necros in a condi scrouge build through WvW to realize how silly overpowered the class was at that point in time. 3 days later WvW zergs were composed of 50-60% scourges.

    The other 40% were the bastions of balance, Firebrands...

  • OriOri.8724OriOri.8724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Mini Crinny.6190 said:
    Aha if your really desperate to play Scourge I can tell you it’s incredibly OP in PvP and WvW

    You ment to say:"Still is insanely overpowered".

    The level scourge was at at PoF launch was beyond anything, even Spellbreaker. Funny enough, there was necro players on the forums who actually believed the class to be balanced that way.

    It took me a whole I guess 30 minutes of running one of my necros in a condi scrouge build through WvW to realize how silly overpowered the class was at that point in time. 3 days later WvW zergs were composed of 50-60% scourges.

    A lot of players think their skill level is far above where they play at. When a class overperforms enough to put them at that level, they think its all personal skill, and don't realize they are being carried. So of course they claim the class is balanced, because if it wasn't, they would have to face the truth that they aren't nearly as good of a player as they think they are. It happens with every spec when its overperforming. People who aren't that good will pick it up, be carried, and claim that its balanced because they are suddenly winning fights

    Eyyyy I unlocked signatures

  • ArthurDent.9538ArthurDent.9538 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Belorn.2659 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Belorn.2659 said:

    @musu.9205 said:
    on the other hand , ele does do nearly 10k more dps than every other class on kc .

    Maybe Anet should create a raid boss which take double damage from confussion stacks and half damage from everything else. This would make mesmers the new super DPS class which would be massive overpowered, but limited for that single boss.

    We already have that: the boss is called Matthias and favors mesmers greatly. What problem are we exactly addressing with this change though?

    The issue isn't 1 boss, it's that ele is and has been superior on almost every raid boss and outclasses others by 10k on KC.

    Lets go through the bosses based on raidar for average boss DPS for the top 2 dps classes. I am using the 99th percentile.

    VG: Weaver: 20052, Mirage: 19521, Difference: 531
    Gor: Weaver: 23152, Mirage: 22230, Difference: 922
    Sab: Holosmith: 22415, Renegade: 21549, Difference: 866
    Sloth: Mirage: 23922, Weaver: 20773, Difference: 3149
    Matt: Mirage: 24789, Weaver: 23269, Difference: 1520
    KC: Weaver: 35959, Holosmith: 30106, Difference: 5853
    Xera: Mirage: 16742, Renegade: 16055, Difference: 687
    Cairn: Weaver: 41289, Mirage: 40643, Difference: 646
    Mo: Weaver: 35432, Mirage: 33997, Difference: 1435
    Sam: Weaver: 16407, Mirage: 16067, Difference: 340
    Deimos: Weaver: 23027, Holosmith: 22019, Difference: 1008

    Conclusion: Average difference between top 1 and top 2 is 1541. For the 7 bosses which weaver has top DPS, the average difference is 1533, and if we remove KC it is 813. For the 4 bosses which weaver is not top DPS the average difference is 1555. Weaver are not in top 2 for 2 bosses, while Mirage are not in top 2 in 3 bosses.

    If we remove the two out liners that is KC and sloth, the average DPS of top 2 is 3.6% less than top 1. This show that the problem is not on the class level but rather on the design of the bosses.

    That condi weaver dps on Cairn seems extremely currious. You did copy it correctly from the site but I can't begin to think of a reason why it would be doing significantly more than its benchmark dps. Mirage hitting 40k+ makes sense and I have seen it done since large hit box + boosted torment before it moves + decent number of confusion procs gives plenty of potential to actually beat the benchmark. For weaver though, I just can't see why it would be getting so much more damage on that fight, and would honestly suspect a bug with Ark.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Good catch. Not to mention 90th percentile is less than half this number, so obviously there's something off.

  • Yasi.9065Yasi.9065 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 22, 2017

    Afaik theres no version check on arcdps logs, and some arcdps versions were... very much in favour of certain builds. So you could run an outdated arcdps and getting inflated numbers.

    Theres another, less conspirational solution to that mystery, however. The shorter a fight, the less mechanics, the more dps in arcdps log.

    And ofc another thing is, the more players upload logs for lets say Mirage, the more logs are available to average that top 1% from. Also skewes the numbers slightly when comparing between professions.

    Imo what gw2raidar is missing, is the possibility to look at the complete logs for top 1%, maybe even top 10%, anonymized for everybody not having an account with gw2raidar or choosing so in the options.

    That way even Anets balance team could look at what exactly produces such high numbers ;)

    Back to topic however:
    I think Clone Mirage needs a fix, not because its highest dps on some bosses or even on testarena golem, but because it just doesnt feel intended. Clones are squishy, they are there to be shattered and not to be turned into better dps than illusions by a single trait. The whole concept of clones outdpsing illusions just rubs me wrong. Thats why I think the best solution would be to change the trait to... hold your breath... give your clones LESSER ambush skills, with reduced dps/utility. That way the ambush mechanic itself stays untouched for the Mirage, while reducing dps from clones.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Yasi.9065 said:
    Afaik theres no version check on arcdps logs, and some arcdps versions were... very much in favour of certain builds. So you could run an outdated arcdps and getting inflated numbers.

    Theres another, less conspirational solution to that mystery, however. The shorter a fight, the less mechanics, the more dps in arcdps log.

    And ofc another thing is, the more players upload logs for lets say Mirage, the more logs are available to average that top 1% from. Also skewes the numbers slightly when comparing between professions.

    Imo what gw2raidar is missing, is the possibility to look at the complete logs for top 1%, maybe even top 10%, anonymized for everybody not having an account with gw2raidar or choosing so in the options.

    That way even Anets balance team could look at what exactly produces such high numbers ;)

    Back to topic however:
    I think Clone Mirage needs a fix, not because its highest dps on some bosses or even on testarena golem, but because it just doesnt feel intended. Clones are squishy, they are there to be shattered and not to be turned into better dps than illusions by a single trait. The whole concept of clones outdpsing illusions just rubs me wrong. Thats why I think the best solution would be to change the trait to... hold your breath... give your clones LESSER ambush skills, with reduced dps/utility. That way the ambush mechanic itself stays untouched for the Mirage, while reducing dps from clones.

    The problem with phantasm builds is they’re target bound and most of the time single target but also have long cool downs without excessive traiting. They only get to max damage when 3 are out which usually takes some time at the start too (4-5s in cast times alone) which makes them really annoying to play. I do agree clones are there to be shattered but one of the better aspects of this build is just how easy it is to get those extra sources of damage which are also part of an attack that does damage too.

    Funny thing is I’d personally remove phantasms as a mechanic from the game, they don’t work well and give the opponent far more control over your damage in PvP, are useless in WvW if high numbers but still fairly bad in small scale. In PvE they’re a hindrance to using the class mechanic shatters while mostly being single target and screwed over by a lot of mechanics which make the boss invuln or go away and that’s without mentioning fights with a few mini bosses. Phantasms also muddy the water for discussion as you yourself just demonstrated. Clones are shatter fodder, they do negligible damage outside condition builds, phantasms inherit stats from the mesmer (but don’t benefit from scholar/force etc) and so cause power damage however both come under the umbrella term illusions for trait purposes.

  • Draco.9480Draco.9480 Member ✭✭✭

    @Belorn.2659 said:
    No thanks! Variation is good.

    I prefer that each class has their own uniqueness, and the clone mechanic is nice. Necro has epidemic, the single highest damage skill in the game when used correctly. Weaver has the special power of doing 15k more damage for exactly one raid boss that is designed to take extra damage from power and is stunned for the whole of the burn phase (ie KC). Rangers has a healing specialization, spirits, and nowdays give 25 might for 10 people. Warrior has banners.

    Instead of taking away variation, please add more around classes mechanics that are currently not used in fractals/raids. Stealth from thieves has not seen active usage outside of dungeons which are today dead. Blocks from guardians are unreliable and somewhat underused, through wing 4 did a few steps in the right direction. Engi turrets has only ever been used as a farming tool. Rev is in a bit odd place like ele, but without a unique raid boss where they and only they excel.

    epidemic is useless if necro is useless in term of dps. ya don't really need epidemic in raids to cleave.

  • Draco.9480Draco.9480 Member ✭✭✭

    @Mini Crinny.6190 said:
    Aha if your really desperate to play Scourge I can tell you it’s incredibly OP in PvP and WvW

    pvp - not, wvw it's nice, pve - completely useless lowest dps in power and condi.
    ya're don't play competitive pvp enough and understand the uniqueness of each class if ya think necro is op in pvp. only scourge is sort of ok cuz of boon corruption but if it gets focused then it's dead unlike others who can survive with focus fire survival skills or just disengage while necro doesn't have any of it. i'm in top 200 scourge in pvp and i 've to burn calories in order to win. so don't give me that "necro op in pvp and wvw"

  • Draco.9480Draco.9480 Member ✭✭✭

    @Belorn.2659 said:
    No thanks! Variation is good.

    I prefer that each class has their own uniqueness, and the clone mechanic is nice. Necro has epidemic, the single highest damage skill in the game when used correctly. Weaver has the special power of doing 15k more damage for exactly one raid boss that is designed to take extra damage from power and is stunned for the whole of the burn phase (ie KC). Rangers has a healing specialization, spirits, and nowdays give 25 might for 10 people. Warrior has banners.

    Instead of taking away variation, please add more around classes mechanics that are currently not used in fractals/raids. Stealth from thieves has not seen active usage outside of dungeons which are today dead. Blocks from guardians are unreliable and somewhat underused, through wing 4 did a few steps in the right direction. Engi turrets has only ever been used as a farming tool. Rev is in a bit odd place like ele, but without a unique raid boss where they and only they excel.

    variation is still on the floor. all classes should be use for dps in power and condi. while we barely have like 5 good condis and 3 good power, everything else is just useless. necro offers 0 uniqueness in terms of pve

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:

    @Belorn.2659 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Belorn.2659 said:

    @musu.9205 said:
    on the other hand , ele does do nearly 10k more dps than every other class on kc .

    Maybe Anet should create a raid boss which take double damage from confussion stacks and half damage from everything else. This would make mesmers the new super DPS class which would be massive overpowered, but limited for that single boss.

    We already have that: the boss is called Matthias and favors mesmers greatly. What problem are we exactly addressing with this change though?

    The issue isn't 1 boss, it's that ele is and has been superior on almost every raid boss and outclasses others by 10k on KC.

    Lets go through the bosses based on raidar for average boss DPS for the top 2 dps classes. I am using the 99th percentile.

    VG: Weaver: 20052, Mirage: 19521, Difference: 531
    Gor: Weaver: 23152, Mirage: 22230, Difference: 922
    Sab: Holosmith: 22415, Renegade: 21549, Difference: 866
    Sloth: Mirage: 23922, Weaver: 20773, Difference: 3149
    Matt: Mirage: 24789, Weaver: 23269, Difference: 1520
    KC: Weaver: 35959, Holosmith: 30106, Difference: 5853
    Xera: Mirage: 16742, Renegade: 16055, Difference: 687
    Cairn: Weaver: 41289, Mirage: 40643, Difference: 646
    Mo: Weaver: 35432, Mirage: 33997, Difference: 1435
    Sam: Weaver: 16407, Mirage: 16067, Difference: 340
    Deimos: Weaver: 23027, Holosmith: 22019, Difference: 1008

    Conclusion: Average difference between top 1 and top 2 is 1541. For the 7 bosses which weaver has top DPS, the average difference is 1533, and if we remove KC it is 813. For the 4 bosses which weaver is not top DPS the average difference is 1555. Weaver are not in top 2 for 2 bosses, while Mirage are not in top 2 in 3 bosses.

    If we remove the two out liners that is KC and sloth, the average DPS of top 2 is 3.6% less than top 1. This show that the problem is not on the class level but rather on the design of the bosses.

    That condi weaver dps on Cairn seems extremely currious. You did copy it correctly from the site but I can't begin to think of a reason why it would be doing significantly more than its benchmark dps. Mirage hitting 40k+ makes sense and I have seen it done since large hit box + boosted torment before it moves + decent number of confusion procs gives plenty of potential to actually beat the benchmark. For weaver though, I just can't see why it would be getting so much more damage on that fight, and would honestly suspect a bug with Ark.

    Tl:dr there are some pretty bad mirages that use radar.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Draco.9480 said:

    @Belorn.2659 said:
    No thanks! Variation is good.

    I prefer that each class has their own uniqueness, and the clone mechanic is nice. Necro has epidemic, the single highest damage skill in the game when used correctly. Weaver has the special power of doing 15k more damage for exactly one raid boss that is designed to take extra damage from power and is stunned for the whole of the burn phase (ie KC). Rangers has a healing specialization, spirits, and nowdays give 25 might for 10 people. Warrior has banners.

    Instead of taking away variation, please add more around classes mechanics that are currently not used in fractals/raids. Stealth from thieves has not seen active usage outside of dungeons which are today dead. Blocks from guardians are unreliable and somewhat underused, through wing 4 did a few steps in the right direction. Engi turrets has only ever been used as a farming tool. Rev is in a bit odd place like ele, but without a unique raid boss where they and only they excel.

    variation is still on the floor. all classes should be use for dps in power and condi. while we barely have like 5 good condis and 3 good power, everything else is just useless. necro offers 0 uniqueness in terms of pve

    I mean epi can still cheese encounters so theres that.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:

    @Belorn.2659 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Belorn.2659 said:

    @musu.9205 said:
    on the other hand , ele does do nearly 10k more dps than every other class on kc .

    Maybe Anet should create a raid boss which take double damage from confussion stacks and half damage from everything else. This would make mesmers the new super DPS class which would be massive overpowered, but limited for that single boss.

    We already have that: the boss is called Matthias and favors mesmers greatly. What problem are we exactly addressing with this change though?

    The issue isn't 1 boss, it's that ele is and has been superior on almost every raid boss and outclasses others by 10k on KC.

    Lets go through the bosses based on raidar for average boss DPS for the top 2 dps classes. I am using the 99th percentile.

    VG: Weaver: 20052, Mirage: 19521, Difference: 531
    Gor: Weaver: 23152, Mirage: 22230, Difference: 922
    Sab: Holosmith: 22415, Renegade: 21549, Difference: 866
    Sloth: Mirage: 23922, Weaver: 20773, Difference: 3149
    Matt: Mirage: 24789, Weaver: 23269, Difference: 1520
    KC: Weaver: 35959, Holosmith: 30106, Difference: 5853
    Xera: Mirage: 16742, Renegade: 16055, Difference: 687
    Cairn: Weaver: 41289, Mirage: 40643, Difference: 646
    Mo: Weaver: 35432, Mirage: 33997, Difference: 1435
    Sam: Weaver: 16407, Mirage: 16067, Difference: 340
    Deimos: Weaver: 23027, Holosmith: 22019, Difference: 1008

    Conclusion: Average difference between top 1 and top 2 is 1541. For the 7 bosses which weaver has top DPS, the average difference is 1533, and if we remove KC it is 813. For the 4 bosses which weaver is not top DPS the average difference is 1555. Weaver are not in top 2 for 2 bosses, while Mirage are not in top 2 in 3 bosses.

    If we remove the two out liners that is KC and sloth, the average DPS of top 2 is 3.6% less than top 1. This show that the problem is not on the class level but rather on the design of the bosses.

    That condi weaver dps on Cairn seems extremely currious. You did copy it correctly from the site but I can't begin to think of a reason why it would be doing significantly more than its benchmark dps. Mirage hitting 40k+ makes sense and I have seen it done since large hit box + boosted torment before it moves + decent number of confusion procs gives plenty of potential to actually beat the benchmark. For weaver though, I just can't see why it would be getting so much more damage on that fight, and would honestly suspect a bug with Ark.

    Tl:dr there are some pretty bad mirages that use radar.

    You missed the part about this data using the 99th percentile (so, with data from bad players already filtered out), i guess.

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