Deadeye Rifle DPS Benchmark Testing

The new Deadeye and Rifle buffs were interesting so I thought I'd do a quick test. The results are great, with

I used alacrity and quickness as 100% here, if it turns out to not be the case anymore this would change, also alacrity has barely any impact on the numbers. I'd like to know if someone else could achieve something better. I know the opener can be improved a bit, and wondering if there can be more kneeling/unkneeling to take advantage of the stealth for cursed bullet or if more initiative regen traits through trickery would be better for more death's judgement.

Pretty strong, higher than most melee weapons can achieve including several that are considered dps focused.

@ArthurDent.9538 said:Pretty strong, higher than most melee weapons can achieve including several that are considered dps focused.Too bad it still has no cleave or piercing. Still, it should be good enough for most fights.

just hit 32k on the golem

Anyone run a P/P comparison using Deadeye?

I'll try S/X and D/D when I get home.

@"blacknazgul.3906" said:The new Deadeye and Rifle buffs were interesting so I thought I'd do a quick test. The results are great, with

.

I used alacrity and quickness as 100% here, if it turns out to not be the case anymore this would change, also alacrity has barely any impact on the numbers. I'd like to know if someone else could achieve something better. I know the opener can be improved a bit, and wondering if there can be more kneeling/unkneeling to take advantage of the stealth for cursed bullet or if more initiative regen traits through trickery would be better for more death's judgement.

Yes, the problem with your build is that you are not using Trickery so you're missing out on the damage bonus from Lead Attack. Not to mention, you get more base Initiative and bonus Initiative everytime you renew DE marks then more Initiatives for having shorter Steal/DE Mark CD.

Another problem is that you spec with Revealed Malice, which loses it's value since Malice no longer resets. Besides, you never even bother stealthing or kneeling/stand, so why even take this trait? You're also using Shadow Flare as part of your rotation, so why not take One in the Chamber? Once you hit max Malice, Revealed Malice is a dead trait.

The same reason that M7 is a dead trait once you reach max Malice. The two extra point in Malice is nothing compare to the damage you can get from BQoBK's quickness, +200 power, +200 precision which will boost bonuses you get from CS.

I'm sure you can get higher DPS (you only average 27k btw) if you switch things up and get rid of all the dead traits.

@ OP30k is a solid benchmark against a target dummy, where you can stay in kneel the whole time and dont have to switch targets. The moment you need to move around or switch targets (or god forbid both), you are losing out on significant amounts of damage. Yes, other specs can miss out on dps as a natural result of movement or target switching (or even gain dps via their incidental cleave), but Deadeye has actual class mechanics that those disrupt as well.

@"Blacksarevok.8104" said:just hit 32k on the golem

You have on "All profession specific buffs" which just doesnt happen and is overly bloating your dps. One notable example being the 100% uptime on Glyph of Empowerment's 10% damage buffs, when in reality it's around 30-40% uptime at best.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@"blacknazgul.3906" said:The new Deadeye and Rifle buffs were interesting so I thought I'd do a quick test. The results are great, with

.

I used alacrity and quickness as 100% here, if it turns out to not be the case anymore this would change, also alacrity has barely any impact on the numbers. I'd like to know if someone else could achieve something better. I know the opener can be improved a bit, and wondering if there can be more kneeling/unkneeling to take advantage of the stealth for cursed bullet or if more initiative regen traits through trickery would be better for more death's judgement.

Yeaaah, no. Actually, M7 gave me 32,300+ dps It's a DJ heavy rotation using realistic buffs. Another note, any thing you get for hitting full malice is immediately triggered again when you refresh.

As for deadtraits... I'm not sure if you can call them that. Very few things in the deadeye's lineup actually gives bonus damage. Unless you go with one in the chamber. I haven't tried using deadlyarts yet to see what I can pull from having the ability to use a stolen skill twice. With alacrity, and the reduction to mark's cool down, I can see DE also introducing a support role for the thief.

The only problem is Deadeye's stolen skills in raids are completely random. Where Core and DD both get unique and impressive sounding stolen skills.

@"Aplier.7829" said:You have on "All profession specific buffs" which just doesnt happen and is overly bloating your dps. One notable example being the 100% uptime on Glyph of Empowerment's 10% damage buffs, when in reality it's around 30-40% uptime at best.

true, but regardless it's still hitting about 7-8k dps higher than what i was getting pre-patch, which is huge

@Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:Yeaaah, no. Actually, M7 gave me 32,300+ dps It's a DJ heavy rotation using realistic buffs. Another note, any thing you get for hitting full malice is immediately triggered again when you refresh.

Get back to me when you compare the DPS using BQoBK with Trickery.

EDIT: With the DJ heavy rotation and constant refreshing of DE Marks, it cuts the wait time for your next DJ by 2 seconds since every time you use Steal, you get 2 Initiatives towards DJ. So instead of waiting 6 seconds for 6 Initiatives, you only have to wait for 4 seconds. At the same time, Quickness adds an extra auto-attack to the rotation.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:Yeaaah, no. Actually, M7 gave me 32,300+ dps It's a DJ heavy rotation using realistic buffs. Another note, any thing you get for hitting full malice is immediately triggered again when you refresh.

You could try it yourself you know. I'm currently testing out P/P to see if I can get it up there. No good results yet.

EDIT: gonna have to rain check that. Thundering something fierce here, and it's tearing apart my connection.

@Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:Yeaaah, no. Actually, M7 gave me 32,300+ dps It's a DJ heavy rotation using realistic buffs. Another note, any thing you get for hitting full malice is immediately triggered again when you refresh.

You're the one disagreeing without evidence.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@"blacknazgul.3906" said:The new Deadeye and Rifle buffs were interesting so I thought I'd do a quick test. The results are great, with

.

I used alacrity and quickness as 100% here, if it turns out to not be the case anymore this would change, also alacrity has barely any impact on the numbers. I'd like to know if someone else could achieve something better. I know the opener can be improved a bit, and wondering if there can be more kneeling/unkneeling to take advantage of the stealth for cursed bullet or if more initiative regen traits through trickery would be better for more death's judgement.

You're trolling, right?

-Trickery contributes less DPS than either Critical Strikes or Deadly arts. Nor do you desire a shorter CD on steal because it is barely a DPS increase.

-Yes, you can and probably want to use one in the chamber in an encounter, unfortunately during a benchmark Revealed Malice is better because you get to 7 malice faster, that's important when you are trying to squeeze out every possible number you can. Saying that though there would be some fights where you need to break the mark, on those fights it is probably better to bring revealed malice.

-No, you will never want to bring BQobK in any PvE group setting, the only benefit it brings is 200 power because you're already capped on precision. so not only does M7 reduce the ramp time, it also increases your maximum DPS by a massively stacking 6%. Unlike the power bonus, it does not suffer from diminishing return on investment, infact it is multiplicatively stronger for every % DPS increase the build has.

-30.076k DPS IS THE AVERAGE DPS. Not 27k. the final number is the total amount of damage dealt over the total time it took to kill it. If you look closely at the graph, you will see there was a point at the end where he reached 39k dps.

DPS=Damage per second= total damage inflicted ÷ time it takes to inflict all of the damage.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@"blacknazgul.3906" said:The new Deadeye and Rifle buffs were interesting so I thought I'd do a quick test. The results are great, with

.

I used alacrity and quickness as 100% here, if it turns out to not be the case anymore this would change, also alacrity has barely any impact on the numbers. I'd like to know if someone else could achieve something better. I know the opener can be improved a bit, and wondering if there can be more kneeling/unkneeling to take advantage of the stealth for cursed bullet or if more initiative regen traits through trickery would be better for more death's judgement.

snip

What about Roll for intiative instead of signet? you just use it and switch weap? (assuming you go rifle/rifle)

@Zlater.6789 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@"blacknazgul.3906" said:The new Deadeye and Rifle buffs were interesting so I thought I'd do a quick test. The results are great, with

.

I used alacrity and quickness as 100% here, if it turns out to not be the case anymore this would change, also alacrity has barely any impact on the numbers. I'd like to know if someone else could achieve something better. I know the opener can be improved a bit, and wondering if there can be more kneeling/unkneeling to take advantage of the stealth for cursed bullet or if more initiative regen traits through trickery would be better for more death's judgement.

Not after this patch. Besides, if you read my reply, I never said anything about replacing CS. Shorter Steal CD means 2 Initiatives towards DJ. Trickery gives 3 more base Initiatives.

-Yes, you can and probably want to use one in the chamber in an encounter, unfortunately during a benchmark Revealed Malice is better because you get to 7 malice faster, that's important when you are trying to squeeze out every possible number you can. Saying that though there would be some fights where you need to break the mark, on those fights it is probably better to bring revealed malice.

Revealed Malice requires stealth and going in and out of stealth is a DPS loss. Even with Silent Scope, you have to deal with the kneeling/standing casting animation that quickly adds up to DPS loss. In order to capitalize Revealed Malice without DPS loss, you would need an instant cast stealth, which you can only find traiting for Hidden Thief. And if you stand up to trigger Silent Scope, the auto-attack standing up deals less damage than kneeling down - another DPS loss.

This is why the video that showcased this benchmark didn't even bother triggering Silent Scope because it would be an obvious DPS loss, which also showed that Revealed Malice is not necessary.

-No, you will never want to bring BQobK in any PvE group setting, the only benefit it brings is 200 power because you're already capped on precision. so not only does M7 reduce the ramp time, it also increases your maximum DPS by a massively stacking 6%. Unlike the power bonus, it does not suffer from diminishing return on investment, infact it is multiplicatively stronger for every % DPS increase the build has.

I stand corrected. I failed to realize that M7 buffs DJ by 15% per Malice which makes that a total of 30% damage boost for DJ.

-30.076k DPS IS THE AVERAGE DPS. Not 27k. the final number is the total amount of damage dealt over the total time it took to kill it. If you look closely at the graph, you will see there was a point at the end where he reached 39k dps.

The 27k is the average DPS, not his overall DPS. The DPS ramp up at below 20% health due to Executioner and he popped Assassin's Signet at the end .

I said "average" because before Executioner and the Signet, his DPS is at 27k. If he also forces himself to stealth and restealth using Kneel/Silent Scope just to trigger Revealed Malice, his average DPS will be lower than 27k. The fact that he chooses not to bother with that DPS loss kept his average at 27k. Once he reached 7 Malice, his DPS went up and down from there averaging around 27k.

Now if spec for Trickery instead of DA, his average DPS will be higher since Lead Attack's bonus will be active throughout the encounter. The only traits that boost damage from DA are Exposed Weakness and Executioner and only EW that is active for the whole fight. The value of Kleptomaniac from Trickery is that you get a free DJ every 3 Steals (3 Steals = 6 Initiatives). Lead Attacks constantly grants 15% damage boost compare to 10% boost from EW. Stealing every 20 seconds instead of every 30 seconds grants more Initiatives to recharge DJ.

In an event that you have to move around, say goodbye to that DPS. Mesmer can reach 32k DPS while moving around.

Death's judgement puts the revealed debuff on you even when you're not stealthed - if you actually tried the spec you would know this. Go read the tooltip on the wiki if you don't believe it. Also, if you tried the spec you'd find that DA probably comes out ahead of trickery. I feel comfortable saying this because I tried both on a golem and got the same results as people that have also tried it out on a golem. If you have any evidence to the contrary besides your feels than put up or shut up.

Finally, you really don't know how a DPS meter works. There are highs and lows throughout the fight, the final number is the average over the course of the entire fight. Of course it's going to be lower at the beginning and spike at the end due to the Executioner trait. That doesn't mean the last half of the fight doesn't count toward your overall damage throughout the fight. So yeah maybe Trickery would be higher DPS if the golem keeled over at 50%, but generally you need to burn them down to 0% to actually kill something.

Either you're trolling or you have no clue what you're talking about. Please stop crapping up the thread.

@"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:Revealed Malice requires stealth and going in and out of stealth is a DPS loss. Even with Silent Scope, you have to deal with the kneeling/standing casting animation that quickly adds up to DPS loss. In order to capitalize Revealed Malice without DPS loss, you would need an instant cast stealth, which you can only find traiting for Hidden Thief. And if you stand up to trigger Silent Scope, the auto-attack standing up deals less damage than kneeling down - another DPS loss.

This is why the video that showcased this benchmark didn't even bother triggering Silent Scope because it would be an obvious DPS loss, which also showed that Revealed Malice is not necessary.You're right in that Revealed Malice only helps when initially building Malice, which just has to happen once on a target dummy. But on just about every boss fight that is something that you'll have to do several times over the course of the fight. So on a benchmark test there's almost no difference between the two, but in a real fight I'd rather have Revealed Malice to help get my dps back up faster any time I have to deal with mechanics.

The 27k is the average DPS, not his overall DPS. The DPS ramp up at below 20% health due to Executioner and he popped Assassin's Signet at the end .

I said "average" because before Executioner and the Signet, his DPS is at 27k. If he also forces himself to stealth and restealth using Kneel/Silent Scope just to trigger Revealed Malice, his average DPS will be lower than 27k. The fact that he chooses not to bother with that DPS loss kept his average at 27k. Once he reached 7 Malice, his DPS went up and down from there averaging around 27k.Then you are using "average" wrong. The chat log that shows up for the target dummy isn't the dps for each hp segment, it's the average dps over the whole fight upon reaching that hp segment. By the end he has done 3,900k over 130 seconds, for 3900/130=30k dps. You can't just choose to flat out ignore the last half of a fight because "he had more damage bonuses during it".

Now if spec for Trickery instead of DA, his average DPS will be higher since Lead Attack's bonus will be active throughout the encounter. The only traits that boost damage from DA are Exposed Weakness and Executioner and only EW that is active for the whole fight. The value of Kleptomaniac from Trickery is that you get a free DJ every 3 Steals (3 Steals = 6 Initiatives). Lead Attacks constantly grants 15% damage boost compare to 10% boost from EW. Stealing every 20 seconds instead of every 30 seconds grants more Initiatives to recharge DJ.

Okay let's throw some simple math at this. Trickery's lead attacks is 15% damage bonus across the whole fight. DA's exposed weakness is 10% across the whole fight, and 20% damage for the last 50% of the fight (for an average increase of 10%), giving us an average damage bonus of approximately 20%. So we have DA up by 5% in terms of damage bonuses.

Outside of the raw damage bonuses, Trickery is bringing us a reduced recharge on Mark (down to 14 seconds with alacrity), 3 more max initiative, and another 2 initiative each time we mark the target. So over the course of a 130 second fight like in the benchmark, this is is giving us ~21 more initiative to use, enough for 3.5 DJs. However, because of Mark and DJ both have cast times, and having to use Mark more than the minimum to refresh its duration, we're also giving up ~6 autoattacks in order to fit in those extra marks and death's judgements. From the video, we see autoattacks averaging around 12k and DJ's averaging around 48k, so each DJ is worth 4 AAs. Net gain from the extra initiative from trickery: 2 DJ's worth of damage (which over 130 seconds is about 700 dps).

On the other hand, Deadly Arts is bringing us Mug, which is about 7k damage every time Mark is used (which is ~every 20 seconds with alacrity, so 350 dps there). And thanks to DJ applying the revealed debuff, we are benefitting from Revealed Training's 200 power on every Death's Judgment and a couple AA's after it. Considering a base power of ~4k, that 200 bonus power comes out to about 5% damage bonus on every Death's Judgment and roughly half of the autoattacks.

So yeah, Trickery only brings us a couple extra DJ's over the course of a fight and some boons we already get, while Deadly Arts brings us a bit of free damage from mug, the same damage bonus as trickery for DJ and half of our AA's on targets above 50% hp, plus an additional 20% damage bonus on top of that for targets below 50% hp.

In an event that you have to move around, say goodbye to that DPS. Mesmer can reach 32k DPS while moving around.Yes, movement and mechanics are absolutely rifle deadeye's weakness in any raid scenario. But that doesn't mean we can't still try to make the most out of rifle that we can.

@ Sir Vincent III.1286, you should actually go test it yourself in game. Seems like you're just theorycrafting and probably messing up at that. DA is higher dps than Trickery on dps golem... in-game. Dunno if this will match actual outcome in-game but here's a little napkin maths:

DA is about ~21.7% dps increase: (probably more)

• Revealed training = 3.4% dps incrase:+200 power @ 60% uptime because 1 ini regen/sec, 5 ini per DJ = 3 sec revealed every 5sec) = +120 power average. 120/ 3500 power (with 25might) = 3.4% dps increase
• Exposed weakness = 10% dps incrase:
• executioner = 7% dps incrase:assuming dps time spent is 65% above 50% golem HP and 35% below: (0.35x1.2 + 0.65X1 = 1.07).this can be higher depending on time split between: above and below 50% HP, and maybe other burst timings.
• all 3 are multiplicative: 1.034X1.07x1.1 = 1.217

Trickery is ~18.5% dps increase

• lead attacks: 15% dps increase
• Kleptomaniac: 3% dps increaseinitiative on steal is 2 per 17.5 sec, you naturally regen 17.5 ini in that time so 2/17.5 = 11.4% more ini = 11.4% more DJsfor a 4 mil golem, I got 165 AAs @ 13.5k average and 25 DJs @ 52.5k average (a DJ is +39k higher than an AA, a DJ replaces an AA)11.4% more DJs = 3 more DJs = +117k.117k/4mil = 3% increase
• multiplied: 1.15x1.03 = 1.1845

Edit: formatting

BQoBK could be better than MF7 , but not sure:MF7 is much better than BQoBK

• MF7: 12% damage increase:The 2 extra malice is gives you 240% DJs vs standard 200% DJs, which is 20% more damage on a skill that represents about 33% of dps = 6.6% increaseand 21% from 7 malice over 15% standard = 121/115 = 5.2% increasemultiplied: 1.066*1.052 = 12% increase overall
• BQoBK 5.7% damage increase(under perma quickness) 200 power / 3500 = 5.7% more power damage, this lets you replace precision sig with something else but I don't think any skill will make up for the difference.

Edit: added 3% per malice, thanks eldrjth.7384, but didn't include 4s quickness. Was testing under 100% quickness uptime, unrealistic buffs. For both builds ofcourse.

what about the built in 3% for each point of malice in M7. thats an extra 6% . Also quickness for 4s in BQoBK. I didnt do any maths on this but im suprised that the auto does so much of the dmg, prob more under conditions that provide near perma quickness too.

@eldrjth.7384 said:im suprised that the auto does so much of the dmg, prob more under conditions that provide near perma quickness too.

Was testing under perma quickness. Didn't do maths on the 33% XD. I was using ArcDPS: AA 56%, DJ33%, Shadow Flare 4.3% and a bunch of other stuff under 1% each.

@Aplier.7829 said: ...However, because of Mark and DJ both have cast times...

Say no more. I see where my error is. You're right, Mark is not Steal.

I think with the math worked out in this thread and my own experiences, I think we can safely say that:

In fights that allow you to maintain malice indefinitely on the target without it breaking, and for simple raw damage potential, Deadly Arts is superior.

There are some edge cases however in which Trickery would result in more damage:

• In the event that your mark needs to be reapplied quickly between target switching (Sabetha, Samarog, Deimos)
• If your group needs a Fury producer and no one else is applying fury well to your group (using a non-Druid as second healer, or Druidless comps using Soulbeast)
• If you are in a group with Mirages who can benefit greatly from the Vigor you provide on steal (Huge dps boost for them, Vigor is a "rareish" boon in raids)
• Burst situations in which squeezing in more DJ's with Assassins Signet popped and higher starting Initiative help (Keep Construct)

I think thats a good "balance" between the two.

I wonder if anyone has tested Roll For Initiative https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Roll_for_Initiative in a rotation using Trickster https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Trickster to get off even more DJ's during a burst phase OR when you need to dodge but want minimal DPS loss and re-positioning potential. I think replacing the crit signet with this could result in a decent boost when traited, especially considering its highly practical application of allowing for a long range reposition without needing to waste dodge or un-kneel.