Open World Domination: Mirage — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Open World Domination: Mirage

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQNAnfWnsnBNohFMDWoBMMjlVDrMCccCA+DwG4D0MGsDeBA-jxxHQBzT9HAcKAo1TAIjKB3x+DjTfwAV+RGgq1A-e

I've also uploaded videos to my channel of the Shoot of the Stormbringer, Sulfurscale, Awakened Stray, Wayfarer, Sandsnare, Dhael Skyspeaker, Avel Stonejaw, Forged Ambusher, Snag Seizeclaw, Balthazar's Lost, and Perturbed Choya bounties as well as the Sandlion Pridelord over the past couple of days.

Got a favorite open world build that works really well? Feel free to share!

<1345

Comments

  • Arlette.9684Arlette.9684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Think Imma try to tweak this to my specs and give it a spin in WvW tonight. I'll update with my findings.

    Vae Victus!
    [Hcm] Promotraitor

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 28, 2018

    @AliamRationem.5172 - why no master of manipulation?

    @Arlette.9684 said:
    Think Imma try to tweak this to my specs and give it a spin in WvW tonight. I'll update with my findings.

    I've been running similar (well quite a number of different traits because I take renewing oasis, DE, Elusive Mind, Bountiful Disillusionment and Master of Manipulation) pretty much ever since taking mirage into wvw several months ago. It is insanely strong in terms of survivability, very strong in 1v1s with many you'll come across (especially vs opponent mesmers - remember to cover cast your heal with dodge - most cannot threaten you, I'd go as far as saying it's almost a mirror match hard counter unless the opponent also builds with as much dodge access.), and solid in smallscale or picking off outliers in a zerg. If you're running anything similar to this in wvw definitely take signet of inspiration instead of domination and take blink instead of signet of midnight (illusionary ambush is too good).

    You'll find the swiftness from it sufficient for roaming - at least it has allowed me to engage/disengage from pretty much any situation I can recall aside from a handful, including some that should be impossible. That's not hyperbole, it's true - I truly regret and wish I could have recorded some of them, but doing that causes issues with my laptop. The ability to survive/escape and even kill chasers while escaping from a mob is unreal - but you need Illusionary Ambush with Blink, Jaunt and Phase Retreat, plus having things like Evasive Mirror and Axe 3 and of course Elusive Mind - very difficult to be caught or pinned down. You don't need sword ambush.

    Would recommend more grieving over viper though as you want to land that big axe 3 burst and F1 when possible - the expertise from viper is pretty useless given how easily our limited condis in duelling/chaos/mirage are cleansed - you barely have any confusion application for cover.

    Edit - I will add to this by saying there will be things that take more effort to kill if playing duelling/chaos/mirage. It's an inherantly defensive spec even if you go fairly glassy, especially using staff and axe/torch where your only significant burst is axe 3 synchronised with ambush hits and shatter, and while you may enjoy regular no-death wvw sessions (while being useful of course, taking camps, killing enemies etc), there will be one or two encounters that will end in stalemates. Off the top of my head one I can recall was a troll evade ranger. And even when it comes to taking down things like super tanky core warriors it is a challenge to concentrate damage when the builds naturally sacrifices damage output for survivability.
    On the flipside those rare builds that are pretty much unkillable can't do sod all to you either, so it doesn't bother me (well the warriors can, and funnily enough my least preferred encounter - but there's more than enough kiting potential to deal with it). I personally value/rate the ability to survive while doing useful things more than the ability to kill everything including the on/two impermeable bunkers you might encounter once in a while. You can still kill majority with this and tbh that's worth the tradeoff to be able to survive impossible odds.

    My ears, how are you! | Kourna Jackrabbit for default Springer

  • On Master of Manipulation, it's a tough call. Since the only manipulation I use in this build is the Mirror heal, I only gain -3s to one cooldown and +2s reflect. The reflect is nice, but ultimately not needed much in practice because the heal already provides 2s base reflect and I gain 2s reflect on evade through the dueling traitline. On the other hand, an extra chaos storm provides me with extra CC, extra blocks, and I have access to multiple combo leaps to proc chaos armor, which grants 4s protection via Chaotic Dampening.

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Super impressive videos, I watched a few and I have to say that is really great stuff. I expected to find some heavily cherry-picked footage, but it's clear this is a good build and skill.
    Mostly skill.
    I am inspired. Thanks.

  • @mindcircus.1506 said:
    Super impressive videos, I watched a few and I have to say that is really great stuff. I expected to find some heavily cherry-picked footage, but it's clear this is a good build and skill.
    Mostly skill.
    I am inspired. Thanks.

    Wow. Thanks! Glad you enjoyed!

    I don't know anything about video editing, so I just hit record and then upload. What you see on my channel is exactly what happened in the game. No special effects or anything cut out.

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 28, 2018

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:
    On Master of Manipulation, it's a tough call. Since the only manipulation I use in this build is the Mirror heal, I only gain -3s to one cooldown and +2s reflect. The reflect is nice, but ultimately not needed much in practice because the heal already provides 2s base reflect and I gain 2s reflect on evade through the dueling traitline. On the other hand, an extra chaos storm provides me with extra CC, extra blocks, and I have access to multiple combo leaps to proc chaos armor, which grants 4s protection via Chaotic Dampening.

    That makes sense based on the rest of your build and also being more suitable for the context/game mode.

    I kind of like to synchronise my open world pve build with my wvw build to maintain fluidity, and in wvw the extra 3s off heal plus adventurer rune endurance refill as well as the 4s reflect is too valuable to pass up.

    My ears, how are you! | Kourna Jackrabbit for default Springer

  • Just uploaded this one: Mirage vs. Champion Grinteeth bounty

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:
    Super impressive videos, I watched a few and I have to say that is really great stuff. I expected to find some heavily cherry-picked footage, but it's clear this is a good build and skill.
    Mostly skill.
    I am inspired. Thanks.

    Wow. Thanks! Glad you enjoyed!

    I don't know anything about video editing, so I just hit record and then upload. What you see on my channel is exactly what happened in the game. No special effects or anything cut out.

    Yeah that's what was impressive. You could have focused on a bounty that was a little more isolated to make it easier, but seeing you handle all the other mobs like the hydras in the first video at the same time was what made that great to me.
    Good stuff. I'm going to try it today at some point on one of my toons.

  • @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:
    Super impressive videos, I watched a few and I have to say that is really great stuff. I expected to find some heavily cherry-picked footage, but it's clear this is a good build and skill.
    Mostly skill.
    I am inspired. Thanks.

    Wow. Thanks! Glad you enjoyed!

    I don't know anything about video editing, so I just hit record and then upload. What you see on my channel is exactly what happened in the game. No special effects or anything cut out.

    Yeah that's what was impressive. You could have focused on a bounty that was a little more isolated to make it easier, but seeing you handle all the other mobs like the hydras in the first video at the same time was what made that great to me.
    Good stuff. I'm going to try it today at some point on one of my toons.

    That's half the fun of open world! You often have to fend off quite a few adds, respawns, and patrols in the process. In fact, if you check out my Forged Punisher and Forged Lieutenant videos I believe both of those get interrupted by a forged raiding party. That always makes life interesting!

    As I recall, this was my very first bounty solo video and I wasn't yet familiar with unstable magic buffs (or the mirage class, if I'm being honest!), but it came out pretty nice anyway!

  • @Curunen.8729 said:

    Edit - I will add to this by saying there will be things that take more effort to kill if playing duelling/chaos/mirage. It's an inherantly defensive spec even if you go fairly glassy, especially using staff and axe/torch where your only significant burst is axe 3 synchronised with ambush hits and shatter, and while you may enjoy regular no-death wvw sessions (while being useful of course, taking camps, killing enemies etc), there will be one or two encounters that will end in stalemates. Off the top of my head one I can recall was a troll evade ranger. And even when it comes to taking down things like super tanky core warriors it is a challenge to concentrate damage when the builds naturally sacrifices damage output for survivability.
    On the flipside those rare builds that are pretty much unkillable can't do sod all to you either, so it doesn't bother me (well the warriors can, and funnily enough my least preferred encounter - but there's more than enough kiting potential to deal with it). I personally value/rate the ability to survive while doing useful things more than the ability to kill everything including the on/two impermeable bunkers you might encounter once in a while. You can still kill majority with this and tbh that's worth the tradeoff to be able to survive impossible odds.

    Can this be said for pvp too? Because I have been going around in a circle over and over, between chaos and illusions and although I like what chaos tree brings to the table, I always end up choosing illusions because torment on shatter is something that cannot be overlooked. So far, I have not found any mesmer running chaos which can stand the pressure I can put.

    What is your experience?

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @trooper.2650 said:

    @Curunen.8729 said:

    Edit - I will add to this by saying there will be things that take more effort to kill if playing duelling/chaos/mirage. It's an inherantly defensive spec even if you go fairly glassy, especially using staff and axe/torch where your only significant burst is axe 3 synchronised with ambush hits and shatter, and while you may enjoy regular no-death wvw sessions (while being useful of course, taking camps, killing enemies etc), there will be one or two encounters that will end in stalemates. Off the top of my head one I can recall was a troll evade ranger. And even when it comes to taking down things like super tanky core warriors it is a challenge to concentrate damage when the builds naturally sacrifices damage output for survivability.
    On the flipside those rare builds that are pretty much unkillable can't do sod all to you either, so it doesn't bother me (well the warriors can, and funnily enough my least preferred encounter - but there's more than enough kiting potential to deal with it). I personally value/rate the ability to survive while doing useful things more than the ability to kill everything including the on/two impermeable bunkers you might encounter once in a while. You can still kill majority with this and tbh that's worth the tradeoff to be able to survive impossible odds.

    Can this be said for pvp too? Because I have been going around in a circle over and over, between chaos and illusions and although I like what chaos tree brings to the table, I always end up choosing illusions because torment on shatter is something that cannot be overlooked. So far, I have not found any mesmer running chaos which can stand the pressure I can put.

    What is your experience?

    Just saying I'll get back to you regarding this tomorrow as I'm busy with work today.

    My ears, how are you! | Kourna Jackrabbit for default Springer

  • @AliamRationem.5172 , @all ,

    is the axe/staff condi build "better" dps/damage/survivability wise if you compare it with axe/torch axe/pistol?
    Im currently running an a/t a/p build and I like it for now, but I have never tried the staff because I thought it was never "good enough".
    Thanks.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @grabowac.7915 said:
    @AliamRationem.5172 , @all ,

    is the axe/staff condi build "better" dps/damage/survivability wise if you compare it with axe/torch axe/pistol?
    Im currently running an a/t a/p build and I like it for now, but I have never tried the staff because I thought it was never "good enough".
    Thanks.

    I'm no Mesmer expert, but it seems to me using Staff instead of Pistol will make you better at surviving. Phase Retreat, Chaos Armor (giving prot from trait), Chaos Storm, extra condis/boons from auto should help reduce incoming pressure a lot. Damage-wise I would expect it to be worse than A+T/P but probably still good enough.

  • Rysdude.3824Rysdude.3824 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Would there be huge difference if one went from all Viper’s to all Trailblazer?

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @grabowac.7915 said:
    @AliamRationem.5172 , @all ,

    is the axe/staff condi build "better" dps/damage/survivability wise if you compare it with axe/torch axe/pistol?
    Im currently running an a/t a/p build and I like it for now, but I have never tried the staff because I thought it was never "good enough".
    Thanks.

    Axe is better damage than staff, but having a ranged option is useful for open world play.

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Rysdude.3824 said:
    Would there be huge difference if one went from all Viper’s to all Trailblazer?

    You would lose a lot of damage, but I imagine you'd be practically impossible to kill!

  • Arlette.9684Arlette.9684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 1, 2018

    The illusions vs Chaos debacle is purely subjective. And it’s not because of torment on shatter. You already have access to tons of torment, getting 4 extra stacks per perfectly landed shatter is more of an icing on the cake, not something to build around, unless you’re a chrono. But if you are, why would you build condi to begin with?

    It all boils down to Xtra Offense or Defense?

    @Curunen.8729 I like the way you think.
    In a pvp environment I wouldn’t underestimate Illisuionary Defense, esp if you’re rolling Deceptive Evasion.
    I ran a version of the build with illusions last few days. I love the offensive component to it, but the defense suffers greatly in outnumbered fights with lots of cleaves and AoE.

    Vae Victus!
    [Hcm] Promotraitor

  • RabbitUp.8294RabbitUp.8294 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 1, 2018

    @Rysdude.3824 said:
    Would there be huge difference if one went from all Viper’s to all Trailblazer?

    Looking at mirage benchmarks, about 15% of the damage is power-based. Of course, this is a different build, but it gives a rough idea of power's contribution to dps. So, that part of your damage will be hurt, while the condi output is unaffected. In return, you get tons of survivability.

  • Rysdude.3824Rysdude.3824 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Thank you!

  • trooper.2650trooper.2650 Member ✭✭
    edited March 1, 2018

    @Arlette.9684 said:
    . And it’s not because of torment on shatter.

    You could be right. But when I shatter, aside from the direct damage I deal, I expect something bad to happen. Letting the enemy walk away with a small dent in his /her hp bar and gaining few boons from Bountiful Disillusioned, regardless of how good the trait is, it does not appeal to me. But you are right in saying this is purely subjective. The fact that cannot be denied is one provides a defensive play style while the other an offensive one. Illusions tree defenitely boosts your damage not only because of MtD, though.

    So far my experience showed me that in pvp offensive builds pay off more than defensive ones, but I could be wrong. In the end it is always down to personal taste so we can go over and over about what is best but it is always you and the way you play that should draw you to the tree which suits you the most. No right or wrong unless one keeps losing badly in several duels but even then you need to factor the skill level

  • @Feanor.2358 , @AliamRationem.5172 ,

    and if you compare staff with greatsword? which would be better for open world?

  • Arlette.9684Arlette.9684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 1, 2018

    @trooper.2650 said:

    @Arlette.9684 said:
    . And it’s not because of torment on shatter.

    You could be right. But when I shatter, aside from the direct damage I deal, I expect something bad to happen. Letting the enemy walk away with a small dent in his /her hp bar and gaining few boons from Bountiful Disillusioned, regardless of how good the trait is, it does not appeal to me. But you are right in saying this is purely subjective. The fact that cannot be denied is one provides a defensive play style while the other an offensive one. Illusions tree defenitely boosts your damage not only because of MtD, though.

    So far my experience showed me that in pvp offensive builds pay off more than defensive ones, but I could be wrong. In the end it is always down to personal taste so we can go over and over about what is best but it is always you and the way you play that should draw you to the tree which suits you the most. No right or wrong unless one keeps losing badly in several duels but even then you need to factor the skill level

    Amen!

    @grabowac.7915 said:
    @Feanor.2358 , @AliamRationem.5172 ,

    and if you compare staff with greatsword? which would be better for open world?

    Staff.

    Vae Victus!
    [Hcm] Promotraitor

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RabbitUp.8294 said:

    @Rysdude.3824 said:
    Would there be huge difference if one went from all Viper’s to all Trailblazer?

    Looking at mirage benchmarks, about 15% of the damage is power-based. Of course, this is a different build, but it gives a rough idea of power's contribution to dps. So, that part of your damage will be hurt, while the condi output is unaffected. In return, you get tons of survivability.

    In my experience in open world play, power-based damage accounts for closer to 20-30% damage. Also, if I understand how clone crit % is determined, precision has a significant impact on bleed stacking via Sharper Images. I can't be certain as I don't have a trailblazer set to test with and I haven't looked closely into the impact of Sharper Images on Mirage DPS, but if I had to guess I'd expect to see somewhere in the range of a 25-33% damage loss.

    On the other hand, I can't even imagine what it would take to bring me down in open world if I had all that toughness and vitality! And when I know I'm invincible, I can play more aggressively! This video of my Celestial Tempest auramancer taking down the Mushroom Queen is a perfect example. You can see that she isn't able to pressure me much, to the point where I repeatedly stand in her area effects to finish overloads because I can afford to take the hit!

    It's likely that this would mitigate at least some of the damage loss in open world play (not so likely in raids, but who raids in Trailblazer anyway?). Besides, who needs to solo bounty champs (don't answer that!)? Even at a 33% damage loss you would still deal perfectly adequate damage as long as you aren't trying to beat a boss with 2 million health and tons of healing in under 10 minutes by yourself!

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @grabowac.7915 said:
    @Feanor.2358 , @AliamRationem.5172 ,

    and if you compare staff with greatsword? which would be better for open world?

    For condi builds, greatsword is not ideal because the only condi it applies are bleeds from clone criticals from Sharper Images. It's also nowhere near as strong defensively as staff. You will want to use axe as much as possible. The ranged option is only there because you will inevitably need it in open world play. So you want a weapon that is both strong defensively and applies solid condi damage. Staff does both and its damage is actually quite good for how amazing it is as a defensive tool.

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @trooper.2650 said:

    @Arlette.9684 said:
    . And it’s not because of torment on shatter.

    You could be right. But when I shatter, aside from the direct damage I deal, I expect something bad to happen. Letting the enemy walk away with a small dent in his /her hp bar and gaining few boons from Bountiful Disillusioned, regardless of how good the trait is, it does not appeal to me. But you are right in saying this is purely subjective. The fact that cannot be denied is one provides a defensive play style while the other an offensive one. Illusions tree defenitely boosts your damage not only because of MtD, though.

    So far my experience showed me that in pvp offensive builds pay off more than defensive ones, but I could be wrong. In the end it is always down to personal taste so we can go over and over about what is best but it is always you and the way you play that should draw you to the tree which suits you the most. No right or wrong unless one keeps losing badly in several duels but even then you need to factor the skill level

    In PvE, at least, chaos is really better at both offense and defense for condi mirage. All of the shatter traits - while much better than anything chaos has to offer for burst damage (critical in PvP!) - are a sustained DPS loss. Compounding power is probably more or less canceled out by chaotic transference, and I would have to say Chaotic Persistence, Descent into Madness, and whichever GM boon trait you take contribute more damage altogether than The Pledge possibly can. On the defensive side of the coin, it's no contest. Illusions brings nothing to the table.

  • trooper.2650trooper.2650 Member ✭✭

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @trooper.2650 said:

    @Arlette.9684 said:
    . And it’s not because of torment on shatter.

    You could be right. But when I shatter, aside from the direct damage I deal, I expect something bad to happen. Letting the enemy walk away with a small dent in his /her hp bar and gaining few boons from Bountiful Disillusioned, regardless of how good the trait is, it does not appeal to me. But you are right in saying this is purely subjective. The fact that cannot be denied is one provides a defensive play style while the other an offensive one. Illusions tree defenitely boosts your damage not only because of MtD, though.

    So far my experience showed me that in pvp offensive builds pay off more than defensive ones, but I could be wrong. In the end it is always down to personal taste so we can go over and over about what is best but it is always you and the way you play that should draw you to the tree which suits you the most. No right or wrong unless one keeps losing badly in several duels but even then you need to factor the skill level

    In PvE, at least, chaos is really better at both offense and defense for condi mirage. All of the shatter traits - while much better than anything chaos has to offer for burst damage (critical in PvP!) - are a sustained DPS loss. Compounding power is probably more or less canceled out by chaotic transference, and I would have to say Chaotic Persistence, Descent into Madness, and whichever GM boon trait you take contribute more damage altogether than The Pledge possibly can. On the defensive side of the coin, it's no contest. Illusions brings nothing to the table.

    I'm with you with all that. But my previous reply was in regards to what Curunen was saying about wvw and I asked if it also could be valid for pvp. I primarily was talking to pvp :)

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    New upload! Xedra Tahz Tahom!

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 3, 2018

    @trooper.2650 said:

    @Curunen.8729 said:

    Edit - I will add to this by saying there will be things that take more effort to kill if playing duelling/chaos/mirage. It's an inherantly defensive spec even if you go fairly glassy, especially using staff and axe/torch where your only significant burst is axe 3 synchronised with ambush hits and shatter, and while you may enjoy regular no-death wvw sessions (while being useful of course, taking camps, killing enemies etc), there will be one or two encounters that will end in stalemates. Off the top of my head one I can recall was a troll evade ranger. And even when it comes to taking down things like super tanky core warriors it is a challenge to concentrate damage when the builds naturally sacrifices damage output for survivability.
    On the flipside those rare builds that are pretty much unkillable can't do sod all to you either, so it doesn't bother me (well the warriors can, and funnily enough my least preferred encounter - but there's more than enough kiting potential to deal with it). I personally value/rate the ability to survive while doing useful things more than the ability to kill everything including the on/two impermeable bunkers you might encounter once in a while. You can still kill majority with this and tbh that's worth the tradeoff to be able to survive impossible odds.

    Can this be said for pvp too? Because I have been going around in a circle over and over, between chaos and illusions and although I like what chaos tree brings to the table, I always end up choosing illusions because torment on shatter is something that cannot be overlooked. So far, I have not found any mesmer running chaos which can stand the pressure I can put.

    What is your experience?

    EDIT - for the record when I say "this build" I'm referring to my build in signature for wvw, which is different from AliamRationem's build, though a similar structure.

    Ok apologies for the delay - had a course deadline yesterday so pretty much 2 days all work no sleep to submit my portfolio. :/

    Right, so in my experience this build is not that good for pvp, mainly because of the limited stat building. Pvp amulets are too limited to allow the fine tuning necessary for this build to work, and also the higher overall stat margins in wvw allow you to push the min-maxing which makes it go from "passable" to "powerful".

    From my experience playing this build with cele amulet in unranked having played some games against noteworthy players, this build can survive very well but lacks outgoing pressure against anything that isn't full glass, - and in pvp the ttk is more important. It could be possible for holding 1v2s as a role, but I don't think it's good enough compared with other builds and classes for this purpose.
    However switching from cele amulet to Wizard amulet is much better - ie you can burst opponent glass cannons like mesmers, thieves and so on faster, while maintaining above average survivability, however I still think it's better in a competitive setting to go with Illusions in order to have faster ttk and be more helpful to the team.
    The mobility is excellent though and very easy to play as a kind of pseudo-decapper with teamfight potential - and on that note I think it's best used in a teamfight as a kind of light bruiser to focus pressure on targets while having an ally that can soak up some pressure. Also one benefit is relying on evades rather than stealth or blocks allows you to contest points better, and avoid things like scourge aoes more easily.

    Anyway I'm still in a quandry with this build regarding pvp (conquest), and I don't really play pvp much anymore as it is. In wvw though this is a beast for solo and smallscale.

    Axe and staff apply enough conditions such that you don't need MtD or extra confusion on F2. Yes it means some fights can be longer, but the increase in survivability by taking Chaos in my opinion vastly outways a slightly longer ttk on some opponents and potential stalemates with a select few, especially in wvw. It also allows you to handle outnumbered situations with more options. Sure Illusions will allow you to nuke someone in 1v1 faster, but if that suddenly becomes a 1v2+ then Chaos is much better, allowing you to effectively "hand-off" (ie rugby) opponents while you try to focus one of them - yes it is such that you might not get a stomp or even a down in some cases, but you can sustain in a fight like that while making decisions of whether to continue or disengage. With more offensive output you're forced to either kill or disengage with less time to think about and play with it.

    The mobility and ports allow you to stick on your opponent with axe in melee which applies enough conditions that an extra few bits of torment from MtD aren't necessary, especially since the torment changes to axe. The main benefit then of Illusions is extra confusion on F2 and ammo on F1. The former is a single skill on a medium cooldown which if missed has all its benefits negated, the latter while powerful is in my opinion not crucial to kill with, especially if not having immediate clone production for back to back shatter. Oh and the biggest issue with Shatter Storm is losing The Pledge - so you don't even get the benefit of Torch cooldown reduction.

    Chaos gives you 12s Mirror with 4s reflect along with 50% endurance regain from runes (also synergy with DE for clones, Elusive Mind for condi cleanse, Evasive Mirror for more reflect and renewing oasis for more regen - not to be underestimated when not having other forms of sustainable healing, can enable surviving in places where otherwise dying), 24s Blink with reflect (amazing for kiting/engaging/disengaging), all staff cooldowns lower (yes 8s Phase Retreat is noticeable when using it to disengage or kite, and 28s Chaos Storm is nice), protection on chaos armour and every 15s on regen (synergy with renewing oasis), might/fury/stab/vigour from BD (makes up for losing compounding power) and Chaotic Persistence (makes up for having zero Expertise or Concentration, allowing you to focus stats on crit damage with grieving).

    But those benefits require tight min-maxing of hybrid stats, which in pvp isn't possible due to amulet limitations. Playable certainly - but I think there are better options.

    My ears, how are you! | Kourna Jackrabbit for default Springer

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 3, 2018

    @Arlette.9684 said:
    The illusions vs Chaos debacle is purely subjective. And it’s not because of torment on shatter. You already have access to tons of torment, getting 4 extra stacks per perfectly landed shatter is more of an icing on the cake, not something to build around, unless you’re a chrono. But if you are, why would you build condi to begin with?

    It all boils down to Xtra Offense or Defense?

    @Curunen.8729 I like the way you think.
    In a pvp environment I wouldn’t underestimate Illisuionary Defense, esp if you’re rolling Deceptive Evasion.
    I ran a version of the build with illusions last few days. I love the offensive component to it, but the defense suffers greatly in outnumbered fights with lots of cleaves and AoE.

    Yeah Illusionary Defence could be interesting for conquest, but for wvw I can't imagine not taking 12s Mirror with 4s reflect and 50% endurance, and 24s Blink with reflect.

    Chaos allows you to handle outnumbered a lot better, and makes disengaging from it easier - especially because this build doesn't use sword, you need to maximise other mobility cooldowns.

    Edit - anyway I should apologise for hijacking your thread @AliamRationem.5172! :open_mouth: For the record I do love playing this with IH in open world (aside from Istan where I prefer EM vs those condi spamming mobs) as it does wreck things.

    My ears, how are you! | Kourna Jackrabbit for default Springer

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Curunen.8729 said:

    @Arlette.9684 said:
    The illusions vs Chaos debacle is purely subjective. And it’s not because of torment on shatter. You already have access to tons of torment, getting 4 extra stacks per perfectly landed shatter is more of an icing on the cake, not something to build around, unless you’re a chrono. But if you are, why would you build condi to begin with?

    It all boils down to Xtra Offense or Defense?

    @Curunen.8729 I like the way you think.
    In a pvp environment I wouldn’t underestimate Illisuionary Defense, esp if you’re rolling Deceptive Evasion.
    I ran a version of the build with illusions last few days. I love the offensive component to it, but the defense suffers greatly in outnumbered fights with lots of cleaves and AoE.

    Yeah Illusionary Defence could be interesting for conquest, but for wvw I can't imagine not taking 12s Mirror with 4s reflect and 50% endurance, and 24s Blink with reflect.

    Chaos allows you to handle outnumbered a lot better, and makes disengaging from it easier - especially because this build doesn't use sword, you need to maximise other mobility cooldowns.

    Edit - anyway I should apologise for hijacking your thread @AliamRationem.5172! :open_mouth: For the record I do love playing this with IH in open world (aside from Istan where I prefer EM vs those condi spamming mobs) as it does wreck things.

    Quite alright! I'd rather have some build discussion than no discussion at all! I think it's been pretty informative.

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Mirage vs. Matriarch Shrilliss

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Praise Joko!

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    So, after some suggestions from other mesmer players, I made a few minor changes to my build. Here's the new setup:
    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQNAnfWnsnBNohFMDupBMMjlVDrMCccCAmzglzLwfA2AfgA-jxxHQBA4UAsj9Hmn6PjTfQGVCOQlf06JAQGgq1A-e

    And here's a sample of it in action: Mirage vs. Tohg Atta Awoth

  • @AliamRationem.5172 / @Curunen.8729

    I've been following you two masters of mesmerism since near the start of PoF and have used your reflect mirage builds a bit (both illusions and chaos) to decent effect across PvE, WvW and PvP. One condi/hybrid mirage build I have had good success with since the last patch however drops dueling and uses chaos and illusions combined. It does mean that reflects are decreased, but adds much more might from the illusions line.

    I'm using something along the lines of the following traits with axe/torch and staff:
    Illusions - 231
    Chaos - 133
    Mirage - 231

    What are your thoughts on this avenue as compared to dueling?

    "A man's will is greater than sense"

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 8, 2018

    @Corthyll.7635 said:
    @AliamRationem.5172 / @Curunen.8729

    I've been following you two masters of mesmerism since near the start of PoF and have used your reflect mirage builds a bit (both illusions and chaos) to decent effect across PvE, WvW and PvP. One condi/hybrid mirage build I have had good success with since the last patch however drops dueling and uses chaos and illusions combined. It does mean that reflects are decreased, but adds much more might from the illusions line.

    I'm using something along the lines of the following traits with axe/torch and staff:
    Illusions - 231
    Chaos - 133
    Mirage - 231

    What are your thoughts on this avenue as compared to dueling?

    There's far more knowledgeable people on here regarding game mechanics and theory crafting, especially across different modes! :) I can only speak for the niche I play and tend to go by flow over numbers (funny given my past work IRL).

    From a wvw roaming perspective the biggest loss of Duelling is actually DE. Especially if you use axe. DE changes the entire flow with axe and mirage such that you can execute much smoother and faster combos (ie axe2 dodge into axe 3 or similar). Crucial for exploiting windows of opportunity when trying to nail thieves or opponent mesmers for example. Or even for quickly spitting clones out for F4, or for IA and so on.

    In addition Duelling gives you almost perma vigour and pretty much perma fury together with Chaotic Persistence and other boons from Bountiful Disillusionment and Staff. Without that you have bigger gaps in vigour and fury - sure Compounding Power makes up a bit for damage output, but otherwise...

    Yes Illusions has MtD and Cry of Pain - but without DE you'll need to get out enough clones to make the most of this anyway - and if taking Self Deception you lose the perma regen. Axe combos with full clones spit out enough torment such that the little extra from MtD is negligable especially in a wvw context. For pve damage output sure there might be something in it but like I said I'm not one for analysing numbers here.

    Master of Fragmentation is solid of course - but with perma fury and decent base precision, the extra 25% crit chance on F1 isn't necessary, the cripple on F2 is meaningless fluff, and the reflect on F4 is superfluous given you already build for enough reflect through Evasive Mirror and traited manipulations. The single major benefit of Illusions in my opinion and the one thing I miss most is AoE Diversion. That single thing makes it so much easier to secure/interrupt stomps/resses among other things (otherwise having to retarget while stomping to interrupt an opponent ressing the downed).

    Oh, shorter shatter cooldowns is nice for sure, but can you get out enough clones to reliably make use of this? I find base cooldowns sufficient with mirage given most of the condi and damage application is from weapons, aside from F1 burst.

    Shatter Storm - I have to do a 180 and eat my past comments about this trait - initially I thought it was stupidly overpowered, however on testing I realised it's actually not as good as it seems, especially for hybrid or condi. Firstly you need to have enough clones out to make use of things (again with shorter shatter cooldowns), and secondly it's mainly for front loading a double shatter at the beginning of a fight - after which you're back to waiting the full cooldown between shatters, assuming you're most likely to have enough clones out and try to use F1 shortly after it comes off cooldown.

    Ok if you don't take that you do get The Pledge, which is very nice for torch burn and cooldown on prestige - however the state of the game now is such that I don't like relying on stealth too much. Axe and staff projectiles (especially traited), as well as reflects can proc reveal on yourself very easily - nevermind enemy skills that can reveal you. But yeah if not having Evasive Mirror then this has less chance of breaking.

    Edit - I forgot. Phantasmal Force is decent, although you've only got staff and torch phantasms so not going to be proccing that too often, same with Persistence of Memory. Or do you also use things like Disenchanter? In any case I'd sooner use these traits with Chrono, and even so I'm not sure how good they would be in wvw - I've not tested them there but I would likely feel a bit disadvantaged compared with other traits.

    So overall I value DE, perma fury and almost perma vigour and high access to reflect above those benefits of Illusions, Sure Sharper Images isn't that amazing in wvw if playing this as you will aim to shatter often, and Desperate Decoy is a filler (well actually having said that it has surprisingly been useful on a few occasions, so it's not a complete waste of space), but I personally don't rate the stuff in Illusions over having these things.

    My ears, how are you! | Kourna Jackrabbit for default Springer

  • @Curunen.8729 said:

    There's far more knowledgeable people on here regarding game mechanics and theory crafting, especially across different modes! :) I can only speak for the niche I play and tend to go by flow over numbers (funny given my past work IRL).

    Edit - I forgot. Phantasmal Force is decent, although you've only got staff and torch phantasms so not going to be proccing that too often, same with Persistence of Memory. Or do you also use things like Disenchanter? In any case I'd sooner use these traits with Chrono, and even so I'm not sure how good they would be in wvw - I've not tested them there but I would likely feel a bit disadvantaged compared with other traits.

    So overall I value DE, perma fury and almost perma vigour and high access to reflect above those benefits of Illusions, Sure Sharper Images isn't that amazing in wvw if playing this as you will aim to shatter often, and Desperate Decoy is a filler (well actually having said that it has surprisingly been useful on a few occasions, so it's not a complete waste of space), but I personally don't rate the stuff in Illusions over having these things.

    Yet another quality comprehensive post from you, Curunen. :)
    The might stacking from the illusions line (Phantasmal force and Persistance of Memory) combined with Bountiful Disillusionment (might on mind wrack) and the staff ambush can get quite high fast. It is this in tandem with Compounding Power that can boost your power and condition damage significantly. Phantasmal disenchanter could also be used to add more might. Once might is sufficient (which actually can happen quite quickly), I like to switch to axe/torch and wreak havoc.

    Both lines approach damage in different ways: Dueling with fury/crit and Illusions with might/damage. I suppose dueling would be better with stats high in precision whereas illusions would be better in builds stacking power/condi and ignoring precision.

    "A man's will is greater than sense"

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Corthyll.7635 said:

    @Curunen.8729 said:

    There's far more knowledgeable people on here regarding game mechanics and theory crafting, especially across different modes! :) I can only speak for the niche I play and tend to go by flow over numbers (funny given my past work IRL).

    Edit - I forgot. Phantasmal Force is decent, although you've only got staff and torch phantasms so not going to be proccing that too often, same with Persistence of Memory. Or do you also use things like Disenchanter? In any case I'd sooner use these traits with Chrono, and even so I'm not sure how good they would be in wvw - I've not tested them there but I would likely feel a bit disadvantaged compared with other traits.

    So overall I value DE, perma fury and almost perma vigour and high access to reflect above those benefits of Illusions, Sure Sharper Images isn't that amazing in wvw if playing this as you will aim to shatter often, and Desperate Decoy is a filler (well actually having said that it has surprisingly been useful on a few occasions, so it's not a complete waste of space), but I personally don't rate the stuff in Illusions over having these things.

    Yet another quality comprehensive post from you, Curunen. :)
    The might stacking from the illusions line (Phantasmal force and Persistance of Memory) combined with Bountiful Disillusionment (might on mind wrack) and the staff ambush can get quite high fast. It is this in tandem with Compounding Power that can boost your power and condition damage significantly. Phantasmal disenchanter could also be used to add more might. Once might is sufficient (which actually can happen quite quickly), I like to switch to axe/torch and wreak havoc.

    Both lines approach damage in different ways: Dueling with fury/crit and Illusions with might/damage. I suppose dueling would be better with stats high in precision whereas illusions would be better in builds stacking power/condi and ignoring precision.

    You're welcome. Ah yes the might stacking is better with Chaos and Illusions - the raw stat boosting is higher with Illusions, providing you can manage clone output to benefit from it. With Duelling you get a bit more endurance regen from additional vigour so slightly more frequent dodge access, whether that's worth it for you.

    Personally the times I've tried playing Axe without DE it just doesn't feel right, and it's become ingrained in my playstyle such that I don't think I'd play as well without it. But if you can then tbh Illusions+Chaos is solid. That's the beauty of the state of mesmer right now, there are a lot of solid options for building so it really comes down to personal taste.

    My ears, how are you! | Kourna Jackrabbit for default Springer

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Yes, great post, Curunen! You laid down very good reasoning for various trait choices. I've already made some changes to my build as a result of our discussions here and it's working well!

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I figured since I've made some key changes to my build I would record a current video against one of my standard test bosses: The Zintl Inquisitor. I have several videos up on my channel of this boss after each major patch. Here's how it went!

    Result: 8.4k DPS, completion in 1:49.

    This is my best result yet, despite a series of nerfs. I'm obviously well-practiced with the playstyle at this point, and the addition of more evades-on-demand, better endurance regen, and stronger CC allows me to play more aggressively and hang in there at melee range dealing damage with the axe. In fact, at this point I would see better results using axe/torch, axe/pistol, but I'll stick to my axe/torch, staff setup for open world convenience against those bosses where it isn't feasible to hang in at melee range all the time!

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    My other go-to test subject: The Chak Lobber

    Result: 8.4k DPS, completion in 1:36 (an improvement of 18% over my previous build!)

    Latest Build:
    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQNAnfWnsnBNohFMDupBMMjlVDrMCccCAmzglzLwfA2AfgA-jxxHQBA4UAsj9Hmn6PjTfQGVCOQlf06JAQGgq1A-e

    Thanks to all of you who have engaged in discussion and helped me evolve to this point. Loving Mirage more than ever now!

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Here's one that has given me trouble in the past, but I got his number this time! Please enjoy Viper Mirage vs. Champion Avatar of Balthazar.

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Who knew tonight would be the night I'd finally get a good video of a Legendary Bandit Executioner solo? I think this one came out really great! I'm pretty proud of it.

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    This one was kind of funny. I was a little off on my game and kept taking avoidable hits from meteorites and fireballs, but that just made for a lot of close calls and quick recoveries! Then, with the boss at 11%, the zerg shows up and gets in on the action! Chaaarge!

    Mirage vs. Xadd Honn Tarr

  • Warlyx.6732Warlyx.6732 Member ✭✭

    just logged in to say , awesome work , love to see those kind of videos (i love soloing too!) , is impressive noneless :) :+1:

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Warlyx.6732 said:
    just logged in to say , awesome work , love to see those kind of videos (i love soloing too!) , is impressive noneless :) :+1:

    Hey, thanks! Feel free to subscribe! I have tons of videos and I'm always looking to make more. Also, feel free to share one of your own! I wouldn't make these if I didn't appreciate watching videos of this sort of thing.

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Viper Mirage Chak Crown solo

  • Sila.6748Sila.6748 Member ✭✭✭

    Your videos convinced me to make a mirage, after having played a chrono for the past 5 months. It looks like a lot of fun XD Now to just learn the playstyle/rotation/how to not die etc.. Love seeing someone doing the open world stuff :D

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:
    Super impressive videos, I watched a few and I have to say that is really great stuff. I expected to find some heavily cherry-picked footage, but it's clear this is a good build and skill.
    Mostly skill.
    I am inspired. Thanks.

    Wow. Thanks! Glad you enjoyed!

    I don't know anything about video editing, so I just hit record and then upload. What you see on my channel is exactly what happened in the game. No special effects or anything cut out.

    Yeah that's what was impressive. You could have focused on a bounty that was a little more isolated to make it easier, but seeing you handle all the other mobs like the hydras in the first video at the same time was what made that great to me.
    Good stuff. I'm going to try it today at some point on one of my toons.

    More unedited open world goodness!

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:
    Who knew tonight would be the night I'd finally get a good video of a Legendary Bandit Executioner solo? I think this one came out really great! I'm pretty proud of it.

    I wasn't trying to capture a video of the executioner, but the initial portion of the video containing my target (Flyrra the Remorseless) came out all choppy. Then the executioner spawns and I just happened to blow away my previous solo time from the video I uploaded 3 weeks ago by 27%! Wow!

    In the earlier video I was using the 20% condi duration signet, but this time I use Arcane Thievery to repeatedly steal that sweet 25 stack might the veterans keep topped off on this boss! I think that along with a less cautious approach (likely assisted by the fact that the boss wasn't packing 100% uptime on 25 stack might!) led to a much better time!

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    This time a legendary bounty, Triq Griz Grolak in Domain of Vabbi:

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