Personal thoughts on Mesmer frustration.

Evening all,To those in Canada I wish you a happy Thanksgiving weekend, and for everyone else I hope you are enjoying your weekend as well.TLDR at the bottom.

I want to talk about Mesmer, it is a class I love and enjoy very much, it is extremely unique in that I have never seen another MMO that has anything remotely close to what a GW Mesmer is. With that being said I would like to state my case as to why I believe most people hate the class and how to (in my own opinion) fix it without completely gutting it. I am defiantly more of a forum lurker myself so I tend to stay away from posting on the forums. I am a very shy person in general however recent changes and much hate have brought me from my little hidey hole to come here and say something I feel needs to be said.

I see a lot of extreme hate on here over Mirage/Mesmer as a whole. "To much damage." "High condi application/damage/pressure." The list as I am sure most of you know, goes on. However I believe if people were honest with themselves and could get rid of their hate for this class just for a minute or two; would realize this can be said about literally every single class in the game. Except Ele, Ele mains will always have my respect. Of course Mesmer has a few annoyances that are unique to us, dodge breaking stun, clone target breaks, and Chrono Alacrity. Other classes also have their own unique annoyances as well but that is not what I am here to post about. I am of course not a pro, nor do I have thousands of hours of experience in GW PvP to know all the ins and outs of every class. I have however played enough Mesmer to know that what people say and complain about my class, can be said about others. Now that EM has been thrown into the garbage I see more and more people still complaining, these people I fear will always call for nerfs to Mesmer no matter what their current situation is.

I believe this to be because of one sole reason:Target breaking and re tabbing.

It is my belief that if Anet were to remove target breaking on a few of our skills, there would be a lot less complaints. I am sure nothing annoys inexperienced/rage players more than having us targeted, doing damage, only to have it broken and having to press tab a few times to find us again. I honestly believe that to be the case of the true annoyance with Mesmers, not our damage, not our condis, (which other classes can do this just as well if not better in some cases.) A few other classes also have target breaking yet we get all the hate. Anyway moving on. Mesmers are already very good at dueling, popping clones to confuse the people we are fighting (these are the people I see here complaining about us.) Yet when we fight a competent player the fight can be very challenging to win. As it should be when you fight someone who knows how your class works. However instead of learning how to fight Mesmers these people posting and crying for nerfs would rather see us in the gutter for good or overall deleted from the game.

It might have gone unnoticed (to the people crying to dumpster Mes) but Mesmers have to actually think about what we are doing to get the full potential of our skills. Unlike most classes we do not have a button mashing kit that we can press for a lot of damage. I already sense someone reading this and wanting to say "You have shatters." Yes we have shatters but we need clones to use the shatter effectively, they also are quite telling when they are about to shatter as they run to you and can easily be dodged or mitigated. This means we have to generate clones again for a shatter and wait for it to come off CD. Till that happens it is mostly a game of "Catch the Mesmer before they can get another good shatter opportunity." Mesmer as a class relies on our opponent screwing up, we rely on you not having a defensive CD or dodge up in order to do any significant damage to you. When you get shattered for a lot of your hp bar it is because you didn't pay attention, had no energy to roll, or had no defensive CDs. Which means only about 1 or 2 perfect shatters ever happen in a fight (against competent players).

Other classes do not have this handicap. You are free to press a few buttons on low CDs while doing damage. Other classes also have a lot more options to prompt defensive CDs. Traps, knockdowns, stuns, snares, pets, AOEs. Not to mention they can also do this while regenerating health, hopping in and out of invis, popping Boons, ect. Also please do not think I am saying we don't have tools to make you pop those defensive CDs because yes we obviously do and that would be, you guessed it, our shatter combo which is our only option. This requires time and placement to set up properly. So because we need to set up a good shatter combo in order to make you pop those CDs meaning we have to actually think about how and when to use our shatters, we are in fact, using our clone generation which is our ONLY way of setting up shatters to do any meaningful damage to you. We only have one for pure damage, the rest are condis and defensive. Our entire kit revolves around shatters, as it should it is by far our only strength, and also our greatest weakness. It is also what our specializations are built around, shatters and clone generation. If you continue to take away our traits that help us to stay alive while doing so we will go back to being nothing more than boon bots.

While I agree fighting a Mesmer as an inexperienced player, or a raging player can be annoying. It should not be the cause of extreme nerfs. I quite honestly hate fighting Warriors, they never seem to die, same with (good) thieves. Yet I don't think they should be on the chopping block so to speak. Just monitored. The biggest fear I have for my class is that condi Mirage will continue to get the nerf hammer until only power mirage is viable, which spoiler alert: The problem with power mirage is if you fail to take your target below half health in a combo (yes some squishy classes you can delete if they don't realize what's coming), you are left out in the open and have to run. I've never seen a power mirage duel a competent player and win. This hit and run play-style may be great for others, but I personally like to duel people.

I apologize if I triggered anyone, it is not me intention to do so. I've never been good at explaining my point. I am sure for those of you who read my giant wall of text who disagree with me have a lot to say and a lot of evidence to point out as to why I am wrong. I respect that, I respect your opinions and that you have had bad experiences playing against Mesmers. I honestly believe the bad experiences players have would go away if they just learned how to tab and look for the shatter signs. Again I mean no offense by that, I've dueled a lot of good players as a Mesmer so I could fight other classes I struggle against better (sadly I can't remember their names however I do remember one guy had some kind of "pro gaming" GW profile he told me to go check out so I wouldn't feel like crap for losing against him lol) That particular case was me trying to learn how to fight a good warrior which admittedly I still have trouble with.

TLDR:Maybe look into removing target breaking on a few skills. This would remove the annoyance a lot of the vocal minority seem to have. I would rather we lose target breaking than damage. This would also have to be monitored to be sure it doesn't totally gimp us (I don't believe it would) and if it does either give it back on a skill or two or buff damage in some areas.

I feel that most of the hate isn't really that Mesmers do a lot of damage or have condi pressure because other classes can do that as well. It's just that target breaking is annoying to fight against.

I am not saying previous nerfs were not warranted. It is my hope however, that A-net and other players take the facts I have listed here (and any other constructive posts others have made) into consideration going forward.

Target break isnt really a problem I think. The ability to blend in with clones is intended if anything since it plays into confusing the enemy. I'm more annoyed by their ability to blind on shatter than their ability to stun break on evade or their condi application or whtever a lot of these idiots on the forums still complain about. Too many times a mesmer player managed to live cause their blind made me miss a key attack that would have otherwise downed them.

There only is target breaking on a few skills, the usefulness of which one you take is debatable.

Serious question: do people really use Tab for targeting in PvP? I find myself left-clicking the enemy model much more often.You've made me curious about whether higher-level players prefer clicking or Tab targeting.

@"calvin.9673" said:Evening all,To those in Canada I wish you a happy Thanksgiving weekend, and for everyone else I hope you are enjoying your weekend as well.TLDR at the bottom.

I want to talk about Mesmer, it is a class I love and enjoy very much, it is extremely unique in that I have never seen another MMO that has anything remotely close to what a GW Mesmer is. With that being said I would like to state my case as to why I believe most people hate the class and how to (in my own opinion) fix it without completely gutting it. I am defiantly more of a forum lurker myself so I tend to stay away from posting on the forums. I am a very shy person in general however recent changes and much hate have brought me from my little hidey hole to come here and say something I feel needs to be said.

I see a lot of extreme hate on here over Mirage/Mesmer as a whole. "To much damage." "High condi application/damage/pressure." The list as I am sure most of you know, goes on. However I believe if people were honest with themselves and could get rid of their hate for this class just for a minute or two; would realize this can be said about literally every single class in the game. Except Ele, Ele mains will always have my respect. Of course Mesmer has a few annoyances that are unique to us, dodge breaking stun, clone target breaks, and Chrono Alacrity. Other classes also have their own unique annoyances as well but that is not what I am here to post about. I am of course not a pro, nor do I have thousands of hours of experience in GW PvP to know all the ins and outs of every class. I have however played enough Mesmer to know that what people say and complain about my class, can be said about others. Now that EM has been thrown into the garbage I see more and more people still complaining, these people I fear will always call for nerfs to Mesmer no matter what their current situation is.

I believe this to be because of one sole reason:Target breaking and re tabbing.

It is my belief that if Anet were to remove target breaking on a few of our skills, there would be a lot less complaints. I am sure nothing annoys inexperienced/rage players more than having us targeted, doing damage, only to have it broken and having to press tab a few times to find us again. I honestly believe that to be the case of the true annoyance with Mesmers, not our damage, not our condis, (which other classes can do this just as well if not better in some cases.) A few other classes also have target breaking yet we get all the hate. Anyway moving on. Mesmers are already very good at dueling, popping clones to confuse the people we are fighting (these are the people I see here complaining about us.) Yet when we fight a competent player the fight can be very challenging to win. As it should be when you fight someone who knows how your class works. However instead of learning how to fight Mesmers these people posting and crying for nerfs would rather see us in the gutter for good or overall deleted from the game.

It might have gone unnoticed (to the people crying to dumpster Mes) but Mesmers have to actually think about what we are doing to get the full potential of our skills. Unlike most classes we do not have a button mashing kit that we can press for a lot of damage. I already sense someone reading this and wanting to say "You have shatters." Yes we have shatters but we need clones to use the shatter effectively, they also are quite telling when they are about to shatter as they run to you and can easily be dodged or mitigated. This means we have to generate clones again for a shatter and wait for it to come off CD. Till that happens it is mostly a game of "Catch the Mesmer before they can get another good shatter opportunity." Mesmer as a class relies on our opponent screwing up, we rely on you not having a defensive CD or dodge up in order to do any significant damage to you. When you get shattered for a lot of your hp bar it is because you didn't pay attention, had no energy to roll, or had no defensive CDs. Which means only about 1 or 2 perfect shatters ever happen in a fight (against competent players).

Other classes do not have this handicap. You are free to press a few buttons on low CDs while doing damage. Other classes also have a lot more options to prompt defensive CDs. Traps, knockdowns, stuns, snares, pets, AOEs. Not to mention they can also do this while regenerating health, hopping in and out of invis, popping Boons, ect. Also please do not think I am saying we don't have tools to make you pop those defensive CDs because yes we obviously do and that would be, you guessed it, our shatter combo which is our only option. This requires time and placement to set up properly. So because we need to set up a good shatter combo in order to make you pop those CDs meaning we have to actually think about how and when to use our shatters, we are in fact, using our clone generation which is our ONLY way of setting up shatters to do any meaningful damage to you. We only have one for pure damage, the rest are condis and defensive. Our entire kit revolves around shatters, as it should it is by far our only strength, and also our greatest weakness. It is also what our specializations are built around, shatters and clone generation. If you continue to take away our traits that help us to stay alive while doing so we will go back to being nothing more than boon bots.

While I agree fighting a Mesmer as an inexperienced player, or a raging player can be annoying. It should not be the cause of extreme nerfs. I quite honestly hate fighting Warriors, they never seem to die, same with (good) thieves. Yet I don't think they should be on the chopping block so to speak. Just monitored. The biggest fear I have for my class is that condi Mirage will continue to get the nerf hammer until only power mirage is viable, which spoiler alert: The problem with power mirage is if you fail to take your target below half health in a combo (yes some squishy classes you can delete if they don't realize what's coming), you are left out in the open and have to run. I've never seen a power mirage duel a competent player and win. This hit and run play-style may be great for others, but I personally like to duel people.

I apologize if I triggered anyone, it is not me intention to do so. I've never been good at explaining my point. I am sure for those of you who read my giant wall of text who disagree with me have a lot to say and a lot of evidence to point out as to why I am wrong. I respect that, I respect your opinions and that you have had bad experiences playing against Mesmers. I honestly believe the bad experiences players have would go away if they just learned how to tab and look for the shatter signs. Again I mean no offense by that, I've dueled a lot of good players as a Mesmer so I could fight other classes I struggle against better (sadly I can't remember their names however I do remember one guy had some kind of "pro gaming" GW profile he told me to go check out so I wouldn't feel like crap for losing against him lol) That particular case was me trying to learn how to fight a good warrior which admittedly I still have trouble with.

TLDR:Maybe look into removing target breaking on a few skills. This would remove the annoyance a lot of the vocal minority seem to have. I would rather we lose target breaking than damage. This would also have to be monitored to be sure it doesn't totally kitten us (I don't believe it would) and if it does either give it back on a skill or two or buff damage in some areas.

I feel that most of the hate isn't really that Mesmers do a lot of damage or have condi pressure because other classes can do that as well. It's just that target breaking is annoying to fight against.

I am not saying previous nerfs were not warranted. It is my hope however, that A-net and other players take the facts I have listed here (and any other constructive posts others have made) into consideration going forward.

Nobody has ever been concerned with the target breaking....it's the stupid condi application which is the problem and what should be nerfed and btw...it's not a duel if you have the 80% chance of winning everytime

@Airdive.2613 said:Serious question: do people really use Tab for targeting in PvP? I find myself left-clicking the enemy model much more often.You've made me curious about whether higher-level players prefer clicking or Tab targeting.

I use tab or whatever key I bound it to instead of left clicking. I only left click when there is too much clutter on the screen and I need to target a specific player. Tab usually targets whoever is in the middle of my screen so I would just look at them and press tab for ez lock on.

I disagree with some of the points here. It's not just a matter of targeting. It's really the builds. A power mesmer that can cloak and 1 shot has a the ability survive a full out front on fight. Because clones, high evades and massive damage. The auto attack by it self is 3k 5k 7k in the span of some 5 seconds.not to mention the power lock sword 2 burst from stealth one shot

Any other class that specs this much glass running zerk will have an extremely bad time. Because they get targeted n blown away in seconds. But with the clones evades and stealth a mesmer can substain.

That's just the power mesmer. The condition mes builds can infinite clone. It doesbt kill u inmmediately but the clones can do all the dmg. U can sit there and just spam and stand still.

Go on Short's YouTube channel and watch him explain how it all works. Great player but I do think these builds are over powered.

To your point I basically made a mesmer to test this out then I made a necro and Holo to test this out.

Mesmer by far was the easier to get instant results. Esp when I one shot them from stealth.

But after a day or 2 I got bored. 1 shitting people from stealth isn't fun. I miss the old days when fights were drawn out.

Now it's become my mission as thief to hunt down mesmers every game to stop then one shotting my teammates.

Target breaking is only on 2 skills (sorry, Mirror Images sucks as a target break because you just cleave through it as it doesn't spread out you and the clones), of which one ports them directly on top of you so you don't have to go looking (axe 3) - just cleave or anticipate a shatter combo (you can dodge the axe 3 animation).

Illusionary Ambush buys you maybe a second or two at most against anyone decent, but it can also have terrible rng positioning depending on luck/where you use it - ie landing in aoes, not spreading out enough (eg on a bridge/narrow path), and really has to be used with 3 clones up for full benefit otherwise it's just an evade on a 20s cooldown.

By all means I don't care if stealth gets nerfed/overhauled in the future - but I think target breaking is the way forward for mesmer gameplay.

For a fa ele, target brakeing is the killer for me. Having to contantly retarget with conatant targetable clones makes fighting the class very futile and frustrating.

Another killer for me against mesmers is confusion. The only change to this condi i would like to see is for it to have a icd...i dont see why it should tick faster then any other condi. Even tourment has an icd and ticks at regular intervals when moving. So why does confusion tick like physical burst damage does.

@Airdive.2613 said:You've made me curious about whether higher-level players prefer clicking or Tab targeting.

Both useful, I find myself clicking on targets at long range and Tab targeting on closer encounters.

@calvin.9673 said:I want to talk about Mesmer, it is a class I love and enjoy very much. With that being said I would like to state my case as to why I believe most people hate the class

A mesmer is telling us why we dont like fighting Mesmers?

@"calvin.9673"

1. People hate Mirage because it is S+ tier in its strong aspects but only A- tier in its weakest aspects. Where as something like a Herald is S+ tier in one aspect only "damage" and B & C tier in other aspects.
2. Players do not "retarget the Mirage a few times while engaged in a combat". Players must constantly retarget a mirage, constantly. This constant retargeting mixed with target breaking, mixed with clone clover & confusion, mixed with stealth, mixed with frequent distortion/mirage cloak, mixed with evades AND dodges, mixed with blinks and jaunts, in a never ending no-cool down cycle, creates a commonly known effect known as "being over powered".
3. No one wants to see Mirage "in the gutter for good" or "deleted from the game", they just want Mirage to be balanced. IE: If a Reaper could be graded as, DPS (S+) - Self Sustain (B) - Mobility © - Team Support © or a Thief could be graded as DPS (S+) - Self Sustain © - Mobility (S) - Team Support © or a Firebrand could be graded as DPS (C-) - Self Sustain (A) - Mobility © - Team Support (S+), why would anyone think it was balanced when a Mirage can be graded as DPS (S+) - Self Sustain (S+) - Mobility (S++) - Team Support "or In the case of Mesmer Team Utility" (A). I mean come on now, let's be reasonable here. Mirage needs to be put on the chopping block.
4. You actually said this: "Mesmers have to actually think about what we are doing to get the full potential of our skills. Unlike most classes we do not have a button mashing kit that we can press for a lot of damage." I just, I mean, what? As if a Power Shatter Mesmer was not the face of explosive GW2 button mashing memes ^^

Look man, I understand it's probably annoying to be a Mesmer main, being caught up in all of this social stigma. But I think you should spend some time playing other classes. Go try to play a Herald or a Weaver or a Thief or just anything that isn't Mesmer based. Then come back here afterwards and tell us how you feel about the intra-class balance.

As a current Mesmer main (I seem to swap every year / every other year) I have played other classes. Ive mained ranger (trapper...back when you could throw traps)/Druid (LB/Staff), P/P condi engi/Hammer scrapper (RIP to my build), daredevil (D/P, P/P) and hammer/gs warrior. Mirage (My own DPS build, less 1 shot, more ongoing sustain...unless you are full zerk and I somehow get the perfect rotation down lol) and its ability to de-target was one of the biggest things that got me into it.

I dont have any realiable cleanses (I use jaunt more defensively and Torch 5 as a reposition ability) so detargeting saves my butt from getting condi blasted.

Condi mirages are either starting out and learning mirage, or serious players who like garbage (this is where I started, then moved to my own DPS build). Ive seen less 1 shot Mirage builds lately, and more condi (which goes to show the quality or lack thereof). One thing to note however is despite me saying this about condi mirage, my own k/d ratio vs them is in my favor.

Even when I run my druid, or a scrapper, I still enjoy fighting DPS mirages, not so much condi (k/d still decent, so its not because i suck fighting them). Too many of them around, most are predictable.

I also WvW and although the amount of mirages I see hasnt changed, the type of mirage has changed, most to condi. Even when I played condi mirage I thought it was over performing.