Writing the Gods and Elder Dragons — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Writing the Gods and Elder Dragons

This is something that has been kind of bothering me for years since GW2 released.
It first bothered me that the Gods - especially Kormir - would completely abandon Tyria. Not just from a lore perspective but even personally, as a player who invested themselves in GW1's lore and killed Abaddon alongside them. While Kormir was human she made sacrifices and pushed on until she had done all she could possibly do. It doesn't make any sense that 6 of the most powerful things in the universe cannot come up with a plan to at the very least, protect Tyria from the dragons, not necessarily kill them, which would cause cataclysmic destruction to Tyria...

Except you and your raid party are just killing dragons left and right anyway, and the asura can just come up with machines that "manipulate dragon energy". If the mortals can do this then what excuse is there that the gods can't at least help them? I understand ANet retconned Balthazar into a power-hungry maniac, but the gods returning to Tyria to help at least the humans would not necessarily mean world-shattering battles taking place. At the very least Kormir could come.

Speaking of Balthazar, wow, RIP.

Comments

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 13, 2018

    @coffeemancer.2450 said:
    Except you and your raid party are just killing dragons left and right anyway, and the asura can just come up with machines that "manipulate dragon energy". If the mortals can do this then what excuse is there that the gods can't at least help them?

    The rest I agree with you on, but this part does make sense to me. These have all been examples of us making matters worse- instead of looking at extinction in a few hundred years, like we were at the start of the game, by the start of PoF we'd moved things up to complete global annihilation within a month. It stands to reason that if the gods knew that those efforts could only amount to digging our own grave, they wouldn't do anything to encourage us... although it would've been really nice if they'd given us a warning or two somewhere.

    I understand ANet retconned Balthazar into a power-hungry maniac, but the gods returning to Tyria to help at least the humans would not necessarily mean world-shattering battles taking place. At the very least Kormir could come.

    I think what they were going for here is that if the gods were present in Tyria, the dragons would seek them out and force that battle, although I admit that it's very unclear. There's fairly good reason to believe that the gods are exempt from being corrupted, but even then, if just one dragon killed one god and consumed their energy- or, worse, learned too late that it couldn't consume god energy- then from what the end of Nightfall told us, that's game over for Tyria. Even if countermeasures could be taken to hide the gods or have them keep their distance, that's still a massive risk if anything goes wrong, and for what? If defeating the dragons isn't an option, what could the gods offer as a physical presence that they couldn't more safely accomplish through intermediaries?

    Which, of course, is where the whole thing falls apart. The absence of the gods makes an acceptable amount of sense, and jibes well with what we know about them- it was the status quo in GW1, after all. The silence of the gods does not- we have an entire game of them using intermediaries to interact with the world and provide support without imperiling their followers, and nothing we know about the Elder Dragons suggests there's a reason that system can't work now. Even something as simple as sending an avatar to say 'hey, we see your Pact's having a lot more success than anyone could've guessed, so it's a good time for you to know that the world needs at least four to hold together, but you can get some wiggle-room there if you help this grim fella named Vlast replace one of them,' could've changed our course for the better in a massive way. And if they'd tossed on 'by the way, here's the Forgotten's homework on dragon weaknesses, in case you need to cheat off it'?

    And then abandoning their realms, and the souls of their faithful... the only explanation that seems to hold together for me is that humanity has just never been a priority for the gods the way they've thought they've been, which is something both Balthazar and Kormir have hinted at. That's not going to be a satisfying answer, though, at least not until we have at least a vague sense of what those priorities actually are and why they rule out even low-effort methods of being helpful right now.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • @coffeemancer.2450 said:
    This is something that has been kind of bothering me for years since GW2 released.
    It first bothered me that the Gods - especially Kormir - would completely abandon Tyria. Not just from a lore perspective but even personally, as a player who invested themselves in GW1's lore and killed Abaddon alongside them. While Kormir was human she made sacrifices and pushed on until she had done all she could possibly do. It doesn't make any sense that 6 of the most powerful things in the universe cannot come up with a plan to at the very least, protect Tyria from the dragons, not necessarily kill them, which would cause cataclysmic destruction to Tyria...

    Except you and your raid party are just killing dragons left and right anyway, and the asura can just come up with machines that "manipulate dragon energy". If the mortals can do this then what excuse is there that the gods can't at least help them? I understand ANet retconned Balthazar into a power-hungry maniac, but the gods returning to Tyria to help at least the humans would not necessarily mean world-shattering battles taking place. At the very least Kormir could come.

    Speaking of Balthazar, wow, RIP.

    I think you highlighted exactly the weak points in the "gods" story: They stated they cannot defeat (are no match for) the dragons. And still we (the mortals) killed two. That means one of the following two:

    • if TRUE, they are weaker than the mortals (2 mortals are now gods by defeating one of the older gods: Grenth and Kormir). Another one is dead by the hands of Commander.
    • If FALSE, that means they want to hide us something. The statement is from Kormir. If she wants to lie us, then what is with the "Goddess of True" thing?

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

    And then abandoning their realms, and the souls of their faithful... the only explanation that seems to hold together for me is that humanity has just never been a priority for the gods the way they've thought they've been, which is something both Balthazar and Kormir have hinted at. That's not going to be a satisfying answer, though, at least not until we have at least a vague sense of what those priorities actually are and why they rule out even low-effort methods of being helpful right now.

    I completely agree with this. We can extend this to: humanity Tyria (or the mortals) has just never been a priority for the gods. Look what happened before. The Dragons destroyed the 5 ancient races. The "gods" acted as now: watching how the Dragons destroyed everything.

    I keep my opinion: The "gods" are only named gods by the humans. They have nothing "goddish" (except that "divinity - a very unclear thing, the newest explanation for what makes the gods to be gods. This remembers me of the "divine organ" from Star Trek making a common alien civilization to be real Gods - the Greek Gods).

    So, the gods are useless. We should hunt them to grab that "divinity" - maybe us the mortals can use it in a better way.

  • norbes.3620norbes.3620 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:

    So, the gods are useless. We should hunt them to grab that "divinity" - maybe us the mortals can use it in a better way.

    Kormir is right there with em and doing the same stuff the others do.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 12, 2018

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    I think you highlighted exactly the weak points in the "gods" story: They stated they cannot defeat (are no match for) the dragons.

    That's not what Kormir said. She said that there is no victory in a battle with the Elder Dragons. And this is because if they kill the Elder Dragons, as we've found out in Season 3 just before talking to Kormir, killing the Elder Dragons to save the world, ends the world anyways.

    Kormir: We, the gods, saw there could be no victory in our inevitable conflict with the Elder Dragons.
    Kormir: Waging war with them could only lead to the destruction of Tyria—and we, the Six, would be the match that would start the blaze.

    It is a VERY big difference.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • I keep my opinion: The "gods" are only named gods by the humans.

    And the Dwarves, and the Forgotten, and the Charr, and the Norn, and the Asura...

    So, the gods are useless. We should hunt them to grab that "divinity" - maybe us the mortals can use it in a better way.

    What nonsense.

  • Clyan.1593Clyan.1593 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 12, 2018

    The story is a rather weak part of the game to me. I mean, there's still a lot of good lore, but the main story is just weird, messy and distasteful to me.
    I mean, the devs can come up with whatever they want, it's fiction. However this is where good and bad story writing comes into place.

    -Uff, dragons woke up and reshaped the whole world with a gigantic tidal wave!
    -Uff, lets kill them!
    -Yeah - oh, actually, killing them is bad for us.
    -We should ask the gods!
    -The gods have abandoned our world!
    -Well, let's go anyway.
    -Oh, look, its Kormir.
    -Now she's gone too.
    -Guess we go back to kill Balthi?
    -Sure, he turned bad.
    -Good, now let's see, .. oh yeh, the dragon's are still here.
    -Hm, I don't know what to do.
    -Me neither.
    -What about Joko?
    -Oh yes! We could get rid of him too.
    -How? He's immortal.
    -Meh, somehow we will do it.
    -Aurene! You killed Joko!
    -How did she...?
    -Who cares?
    -Lol we just kill everything.

  • coffeemancer.2450coffeemancer.2450 Member ✭✭
    edited December 12, 2018

    I would have liked to see the Elder Dragons be the actual cyclic forces of nature they were sold to be a long time ago, not just the big problem that leads to a bigger problem. It is really strange to see their brains getting popped by mesmers or being shot down by an airship. Like really you purify a well and now Zhaitan is too weak to resist canon fire?

    Also: Balthazar a raid boss, AND he dies, before we even get to see what Menzies looks like?

  • @ThatOddOne.4387 said:

    I keep my opinion: The "gods" are only named gods by the humans.

    And the Dwarves, and the Forgotten, and the Charr, and the Norn, and the Asura...

    And the centaurs.

    @coffeemancer.2450 said:
    I would have liked to see the Elder Dragons be the actual cyclic forces of nature they were sold to be a long time ago, not just the big problem that leads to a bigger problem. It is really strange to see their brains getting popped by mesmers or being shot down by an airship. Like really you purify a well and now Zhaitan is too weak to resist canon fire?

    Well, I mean, we also purified the five temples that held massive amounts of magic from the gods, as well as killed specialized minions (Eyes and Mouths) that it depended on, and we were told afterwards that the gods had drained Zhaitan of magic while it slept so it was left weak from the get go.

    But yeah, I really wish they waited for at least the second plot to kill an Elder Dragon. The initial game should have left the Elder Dragons as a distant force that's a threat only some recognize. Zhaitan shouldn't have been at Orr, but as close to Tyrians as Jormag and Kralkatorrik.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Thanks everyone for the discussion, sometimes I feel like an old ghost wandering a world that left me behind, or I left it behind.
    Tyria is more than 10 years old now and will always have a special place in my heart even if I'm not there anymore.
    Konig I remember reading your posts on the original forums, good memories, keep up the good work.

  • Aracz.4702Aracz.4702 Member ✭✭
    edited December 13, 2018

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:

    I completely agree with this. We can extend this to: humanity Tyria (or the mortals) has just never been a priority for the gods. Look what happened before. The Dragons destroyed the 5 ancient races. The "gods" acted as now: watching how the Dragons destroyed everything.

    Isn't it that Human gods weren't in Tyria yet when Dragons destroyed ancient races? They came with Humans as a leaders, helped in wars against other races, then went to their dimensions to help Humans with their powers, not presence. With gods help humans conquered Kryta from Centaurs and Ascalon from Charrs, and when gods got bored with helping with their full potential, and becouse human nations started to fight against each another, and gods didn't wanted to prioritize any nation... We all know how it ended.

    @ThatOddOne.4387 said:

    I keep my opinion: The "gods" are only named gods by the humans.

    And the Dwarves, and the Forgotten, and the Charr, and the Norn, and the Asura...

    They are gods only for Humans. In Legions, charr can be even punished for using term of "god". They can call them "Human gods", but not overall gods. For other races, they are just powerfull beings. Flame legion had their own gods - Titans. Norns have Spirits of the Nature, Dwarves believed in Great Dwarf, Asuras have their "Ethernal Alhemy" (kind of Confucianism, rather philosophy than religion, but it's replace religion in some way).
    And we have to understand that when most of the races use term "god", they mean "really powerful beings", not gods in religious aspects. Humans are the only race worshiping the Six, because the Six wanted to be religious gods only for Humans. We can't tell why. It's unclear if Humans gods are creators of Humans, or they just "adopted" them and then just brought Humans to Tyria. Only thing what we know is that Humans and the Six are from other dimension in The Mists and they came together around 786 BE (Before Exodus - moment, when The Six left tyria). Now, in Lore, we have 1131 AE (After Exodus). Elder Dragons were the last time awake in... 10,000 BE. So, there is no chance for human gods to watch other races fall ^^

    Sources:

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Timeline
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Religion

  • norbes.3620norbes.3620 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    But yeah, I really wish they waited for at least the second plot to kill an Elder Dragon. The initial game should have left the Elder Dragons as a distant force that's a threat only some recognize. Zhaitan shouldn't have been at Orr, but as close to Tyrians as Jormag and Kralkatorrik.

    thats a big Thing here.. a lot of People had a really hard time digesting the end of zhaitan. the Dragons were discribed as unrivaled enemys who cause catatstrophys by Default and.... well that firework cannons sure werent satisying. but neither was the damage the Dragon dealt to the world.

    ofcourse that changes a bit if u read the books cuz specially see of sorrows gives some insight into that but ingame ist "only" the typical undead swarming the shores wich isnt that terrifying for rpg Player cuz thats "just how it usually is"

    thats why at least for me i REALLY liked how HoT started. the allmighty pact shredded apart. the fleet wich were THE top of the top masterpiece of intercultural Technologies destroyed in a single attack the dschungle swarming with really hard enemys. the fight against mordremoth himself.. was better than vs zhaitan at least in Dragons stand. the mind Version.. well mordremoth was just a green moving woodpile. the fight had some nice elements so im still in the -arenanet did improve a lot on that one- faction while it still could be better.

    but lets be honest it is really HARD to make those masterpiece epic fights even Possible in a game that we got in our mind when we heard/ read the first discription of an elder Dragon.

    so as Long as the Story beforehand is giving good vibes and the endboss battle is better than sitting down in a static Canon and launching fireworks, im satisfied :)

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 13, 2018

    @Aracz.4702 said:

    They are gods only for Humans... because the Six wanted to be religious gods only for Humans.

    Not entirely. The Forgotten, as a race, were even more fervent followers of the Six than the humans. In other places, while we don't know how widespread their worship was in their respective cultures, we do find a fair number of dwarves, a centaur, a naga, a djinn, and arguably a tribe of grawl worshiping either Dwayna or Balthazar. According to one source, there was also a number of races that worshiped Abaddon exclusively before the other gods struck him from history, and there's also the possibility of harpies once serving Dwayna. There's also a... much less reliable source claiming the jotun were once favored by the gods. The humans are just the ones who owe their existence in this particular world to the Six, and who've held on to that worship for the longest (barring any possible enclaves of Forgotten still in the Mists).

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • @Aaron Ansari.1604
    Good point, and thanks for sources. It's quite interesting. But in most cases, it seems as personal choice to worship those gods, still, it's nice to know that The Six isn't against worshippers from other races.
    The most interesting part is about Forgottens and Harpies, I knew about Forgottens, but not about that they are really closly connected with The Six.
    And about the Jotun, Thrulnn tells about "since before the gods put limits on magic". The limit of magic is remind of creating the Bloodstone, which was done by Seers. Maybe he remind moment, when gods have taken Bloodstone to Arah?
    But the most weird part is: "In the beginning, humans lived like grawl. The gods had not yet noticed them. Their magic was primitive: fire, earth, air and water. My jotun ancestors helped them survive."
    I wonder if Thrulnn use term of "God" for wider group of beings, or if those humans arrived from Cantha without The Six knowledge.

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 13, 2018

    The trick to remember with the jotun is that they don't have access to their own history anymore. They can't even read their own language. All they have is a nearly extinct oral tradition, and "(t)heir lore is scattered, and much of it lost; any religion, higher learning, or secrets of invention that they once mastered have been eradicated, and only the remnants of their once-great society remain."

    It might be that things went down the way Thruln says, and it's somehow everyone else who has it wrong. Or it might be that's it's a warped remembering of the Bloodstone incident, as you suggest. Or it might be that the gods never gave the jotun a second thought, but somewhere along the line a jotun chieftain decided he liked the idea of being their favorites and forced his storyteller to add that 'fact' to the tales. Or it may be that Thruln heard a human talking about the gods once, and decided to work that into his presentation in Hoelbrak to encourage the norn to listen to the parts he truly wanted remembered. Without corroborating information, it's impossible to tell for sure what the truth is.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • Here's some more questions I found:

    1) Could there be other gods out there in the mist that didn't care about the sunwell on Tyria or didn't notice it like our gods did?
    2) Did Balthazar kill his own father?
    3) Who's grenth's father?

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    Well, I mean, we also purified the five temples that held massive amounts of magic from the gods, as well as killed specialized minions (Eyes and Mouths) that it depended on, and we were told afterwards that the gods had drained Zhaitan of magic while it slept so it was left weak from the get go.

    But yeah, I really wish they waited for at least the second plot to kill an Elder Dragon. The initial game should have left the Elder Dragons as a distant force that's a threat only some recognize. Zhaitan shouldn't have been at Orr, but as close to Tyrians as Jormag and Kralkatorrik.

    This ^^^^ ..Though at times I do wonder if the Zhaitan we killed was really him or just a shell he used as a storage battery. After all we do learn that he used Minions to see and eat with, So why couldn't he of had a extra corpse shell for last line of defense ? Since he was said to of been weakened by the gods.

  • Dante.1763Dante.1763 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @starhunter.6015 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    Well, I mean, we also purified the five temples that held massive amounts of magic from the gods, as well as killed specialized minions (Eyes and Mouths) that it depended on, and we were told afterwards that the gods had drained Zhaitan of magic while it slept so it was left weak from the get go.

    But yeah, I really wish they waited for at least the second plot to kill an Elder Dragon. The initial game should have left the Elder Dragons as a distant force that's a threat only some recognize. Zhaitan shouldn't have been at Orr, but as close to Tyrians as Jormag and Kralkatorrik.

    This ^^^^ ..Though at times I do wonder if the Zhaitan we killed was really him or just a shell he used as a storage battery. After all we do learn that he used Minions to see and eat with, So why couldn't he of had a extra corpse shell for last line of defense ? Since he was said to of been weakened by the gods.

    Given that his magic has been distributed to the other EDs we know hes dead, on top of that Tequatl in lore was absorbing his now free magic and until we killed that Tequatl she was slowly changing into the next Zhaitan(if i remember that portion of Tequatl correctly).

    Ember Wandertooth(SB), Lucina Fallenflame(Weaver), Kianda Redpaw(Guardian), Kingslayer, Light in the Dark.
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  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 14, 2018

    @coffeemancer.2450 said:
    Here's some more questions I found:

    1) Could there be other gods out there in the mist that didn't care about the sunwell on Tyria or didn't notice it like our gods did?

    We haven't seen any solid evidence, but it can't be ruled out. We just don't know enough about the Six to say whether they're alone.

    2) Did Balthazar kill his own father?

    Extremely unclear. All we know is that the Orrian records say that Balthazar came to Tyria carrying his father's head. You don't usually carry around the head of someone you were fond of, but there are exceptions, so...

    3) Who's grenth's father?

    All evidence points to Malchor, to the point that the devs even changed the one bit of counter-evidence that'd made it into the game. Originally, the Statue of Grenth in DR had a quote by Malchor, the same as the other Five, which wouldn't have worked with the timeline if he'd been Grenth's father; the devs swapped it out for a quote from Desmina, instead. It's hard to think of any other reason why they would've gone to the trouble.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 14, 2018

    @Aracz.4702 said:
    They are gods only for Humans. In Legions, charr can be even punished for using term of "god". They can call them "Human gods", but not overall gods. For other races, they are just powerfull beings. Flame legion had their own gods - Titans. Norns have Spirits of the Nature, Dwarves believed in Great Dwarf, Asuras have their "Ethernal Alhemy" (kind of Confucianism, rather philosophy than religion, but it's replace religion in some way).

    Hmmm, not really.

    Firstly, there were dwarves who worshiped Dwayna and Grenth specifically. To name the obvious cases:

    Secondly, charr do believe the Six are gods. They even have a myth that Melandru creating Tyria. It's just that they view gods as not beings to worship but beings to fight - though this isn't universal, even outside of the Flame Legion, though the top brass doesn't trust religious charr and treats them all as Flame Legion anyways.

    Norn may have the Spirits of the Wild, but they acknowledge the existence and power of the Six Gods. So do the asura, who think that the Six are just large parts of the Eternal Alchemy, not non-existent or excluded from.

    And it should be obvious about the Forgotten, given Nightfall.

    Harpies are claimed to be former servants of Dwayna, and there's some centaurs who revere/worship Balthazar. There is even a naga named for Dwayna.

    @Aracz.4702 said:
    And we have to understand that when most of the races use term "god", they mean "really powerful beings", not gods in religious aspects. Humans are the only race worshiping the Six, because the Six wanted to be religious gods only for Humans. We can't tell why. It's unclear if Humans gods are creators of Humans, or they just "adopted" them and then just brought Humans to Tyria. Only thing what we know is that Humans and the Six are from other dimension in The Mists and they came together around 786 BE (Before Exodus - moment, when The Six left tyria). Now, in Lore, we have 1131 AE (After Exodus). Elder Dragons were the last time awake in... 10,000 BE. So, there is no chance for human gods to watch other races fall ^^

    Sources:

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Timeline
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Religion

    Again, wrong. The Gods are more than "really powerful beings"; though some "really powerful beings" have masqueraded as gods or treated as idols by some, the Six Gods, Koda, Zintl, Ameyalli, even Spirits of the Wild are all on another level of being. And even then, human tales proclaim the Six Gods are each "all powerful beings who are more powerful than the other all powerful beings in a particular facet" - of course, we know this to be a false definition, but that's how humans viewed the gods before Nightfall.

    And nothing really defines why the humans ever began worshiping the Six, since we don't know of their connection in the previous world before entering Tyria.

    That said, it's 1331 AE now (soon 1332 AE once 2019 hits), and while we have lore telling us 10,000 BE for the Elder Dragons' last line, we also have various lore telling us 3,000 years ago (circa 2,000-17,000 BE), and that latter one matches the time given to Forgotten arriving from the Mists, and they were sent by / came with the gods.

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    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 14, 2018

    @coffeemancer.2450 said:
    This is something that has been kind of bothering me for years since GW2 released.
    It first bothered me that the Gods - especially Kormir - would completely abandon Tyria. Not just from a lore perspective but even personally, as a player who invested themselves in GW1's lore and killed Abaddon alongside them. While Kormir was human she made sacrifices and pushed on until she had done all she could possibly do. It doesn't make any sense that 6 of the most powerful things in the universe cannot come up with a plan to at the very least, protect Tyria from the dragons, not necessarily kill them, which would cause cataclysmic destruction to Tyria...

    Except you and your raid party are just killing dragons left and right anyway, and the asura can just come up with machines that "manipulate dragon energy". If the mortals can do this then what excuse is there that the gods can't at least help them? I understand ANet retconned Balthazar into a power-hungry maniac, but the gods returning to Tyria to help at least the humans would not necessarily mean world-shattering battles taking place. At the very least Kormir could come.

    Speaking of Balthazar, wow, RIP.

    You completely missed the rational reasons WHY the gods would leave...

    Kormir: We, the gods, saw there could be no victory in our inevitable conflict with the Elder Dragons.
    Kormir: Waging war with them could only lead to the destruction of Tyria—and we, the Six, would be the match that would start the blaze.
    Kormir: And so, we chose to withdraw from Tyria altogether, and spare this world further calamity... Or rather, most of us chose to.

  • @Aracz.4702 said:
    @Aaron Ansari.1604
    And about the Jotun, Thrulnn tells about "since before the gods put limits on magic". The limit of magic is remind of creating the Bloodstone, which was done by Seers. Maybe he remind moment, when gods have taken Bloodstone to Arah?
    But the most weird part is: "In the beginning, humans lived like grawl. The gods had not yet noticed them. Their magic was primitive: fire, earth, air and water. My jotun ancestors helped them survive."
    I wonder if Thrulnn use term of "God" for wider group of beings, or if those humans arrived from Cantha without The Six knowledge.

    Thrulnn's account is full of unreliable narrator, as his claim for why the jotun fell is directly countered by his ancestor in the norn personal story.

    @coffeemancer.2450 said:
    Here's some more questions I found:

    1) Could there be other gods out there in the mist that didn't care about the sunwell on Tyria or didn't notice it like our gods did?
    2) Did Balthazar kill his own father?
    3) Who's grenth's father?

    1) Yes. In Tyria itself, we have five supposed gods: Koda, Zintl, Ameyalli, Mellaggan, and the Great Dwarf. There's various levels of questioning those gods' existence, mind you, but there's also no real evidence of their existence lacking. Even with the Great Dwarf, Anet devs have said along the lines that the "modern Great Dwarf" (e.g., its usage in EotN) about the collective mind of stone dwarves may-or-may-not be the same as the original understanding of the title/god.

    On top of that, there's theories that the Six Gods are, effectively, another world's equivalent of the Elder Dragons - hence why there's six and six, but no true overlapping - that the other world's "six domains of powers" functioned slightly differently. In this theory, then in theory, every world has their own "Six Gods / Elder Dragons" group.

    2) Unknown. Balthazar came to Tyria carrying his father's head, but that's all we know. It's not even clear why he was carrying the head. Ancient tradition? Battle just won and celebrating crude victory? Battle just lost and mourning? Personal and grim reminder of an old event? Was the head even with flesh or was it just a skull (thus making the scene a little less grim)? No context is given, so we cannot know.

    3) Unconfirmed but heavy implyance that it was Malchor. In the PS, it's stated that Grenth's father was a "mortal sculptor", and the Orrian History Scrolls can read that Dwayna had some feelings for Malchor too (or that's how some folks interpret the lines "When it was done, he asked Dwayna if she favored the image, and weeping, Dwayna allowed him to touch her face, that he might know the precision with which—even blind—he had carved her image. But then, as she knew she must, the goddess Dwayna left and returned to Arah, leaving the sculptor alone.").

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 14, 2018

    @coffeemancer.2450 said:
    This is something that has been kind of bothering me for years since GW2 released.
    It first bothered me that the Gods - especially Kormir - would completely abandon Tyria. Not just from a lore perspective but even personally, as a player who invested themselves in GW1's lore and killed Abaddon alongside them. While Kormir was human she made sacrifices and pushed on until she had done all she could possibly do. It doesn't make any sense that 6 of the most powerful things in the universe cannot come up with a plan to at the very least, protect Tyria from the dragons, not necessarily kill them, which would cause cataclysmic destruction to Tyria...

    Except you and your raid party are just killing dragons left and right anyway, and the asura can just come up with machines that "manipulate dragon energy". If the mortals can do this then what excuse is there that the gods can't at least help them? I understand ANet retconned Balthazar into a power-hungry maniac, but the gods returning to Tyria to help at least the humans would not necessarily mean world-shattering battles taking place. At the very least Kormir could come.

    Speaking of Balthazar, wow, RIP.

    If you look at the Daybreak Trailer, we have a slightly different speech from Kormir, which discuss what the gods thought the outcomes were.

    Kormir: We, the gods, saw there could be no victory in our inevitable conflict with the Elder Dragons.

    That conflict can only end in two ways; the ruin of the Six or the utter destruction of Tyria’s magical balance.

    If we look back at Season 2 in the Drummond Priory, Ogden said this:

    Ogden Stonehealer: The gods expound on how Tyria's health is tied directly to them. This portion is somewhat abstract, however.
    Ogden Stonehealer: There are varied theories on what it means, but I believe it refers to the natural balance of magic.
    Ogden Stonehealer: Too much magic, and the world spins out of control. Too little, and it crumbles into darkness.

    Perhaps the gods couldn’t interfere that mich without causing more imbalance to Tyria.

  • I'd still prefer to think the Five were slowly but inevitably tainted by Zhaitan's corruption of Orr, having had such a deep magical connection to that land; and they all left except Kormir because she wasn't affected, having no direct history in Orr.

  • Aracz.4702Aracz.4702 Member ✭✭
    edited December 17, 2018

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    Secondly, charr do believe the Six are gods.

    We should state how different races define gods (and how do we). And I wouldn't call it believe. They just know that they exist, it's undeniable fact (there is difference between faith and knowledge, but in terms of religion is a very/too philosophical topic + the myth is just the myth, in Western Culture we also have myths about Greece and Roman gods :S and it is part of our culture) . Also their power is undeniable, and it's for all the beings in tyria, for Elder Dragons too.
    As a something saint, a being to worship, and as a source of power, The Six are currently a gods for Humans and individuals/groups from other kinds.
    If it would be different, would they be on the side od Humans in every Human-Charr and Human-Centaur conflict?

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    Secondly, charr do believe the Six are gods.

    Norn may have the Spirits of the Wild, but they acknowledge the existence and power of the Six Gods. So do the asura, who think that the Six are just large parts of the Eternal Alchemy, not non-existent or excluded from.

    Char "need no Gods". That means they believe nothing about the six. They are not interested if they are gods or not - because "Charr need no Gods". And this explain very well the only charr belief: They can do anything a god can do (no matter if they will need centuries to do what a "god"can do in days. They eventually will be able to do the same). So, this is the charr belief.

    For the Nords, I see the things a little different: Even if the Nords acknowledge the existence of the Six, they consider the Spirits of the Wild to be a more appropiated representation of a God. With other words, "Yes, the six are remarkable entities but we have our Gods. The six cannot compare with our Gods."

    As for the Asuras - they are the closest to the real definition of what the six are: The six are part of the Eternal Alchemy. Like any asuran, like any charr, like any human. And, as we found when Balthazar tried to kill Jormag and Primordius, the six obeys the rules of the Eternal Alchemy. With other worlds, for the asuran the six are entirely common beings.

    Again, wrong. The Gods are more than "really powerful beings"

    Can you give some proofs of what you claim? How are the human gods "more than really powerfull beings"?

    And nothing really defines why the humans ever began worshiping the Six, since we don't know of their connection in the previous world before entering Tyria.

    This can be explained by the old Jotun stories -"In the begining the humans were as the grawls" - This can be a very plausible explanation.

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    You completely missed the rational reasons WHY the gods would leave...

    Kormir: We, the gods, saw there could be no victory in our inevitable conflict with the Elder Dragons.
    Kormir: Waging war with them could only lead to the destruction of Tyria—and we, the Six, would be the match that would start the blaze.
    Kormir: And so, we chose to withdraw from Tyria altogether, and spare this world further calamity...Or rather, most of us chose to.

    Well, let's see what Kormir really says: If we fight the dragons, Tyria will be destroyed. So, to save Tyria they chose to withdraw.

    What Kormir says is a lie. Coming from the "godess of truth". Because by leaving the world the gods don't spare it from further calamity. They let the world to become the victim of a calamity - the Elder Dragons.

    So, in my opinion the rational reason of the gods exodus is completely irrational.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 17, 2018

    @Aracz.4702 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    Secondly, charr do believe the Six are gods.

    We should state how different races define gods (and how do we). And I wouldn't call it believe. They just know that they exist, it's undeniable fact (there is difference between faith and knowledge, but in terms of religion is a very/too philosophical topic + the myth is just the myth, in Western Culture we also have myths about Greece and Roman gods :S and it is part of our culture) . Also their power is undeniable, and it's for all the beings in tyria, for Elder Dragons too.
    As a something saint, a being to worship, and as a source of power, The Six are currently a gods for Humans and individuals/groups from other kinds.
    If it would be different, would they be on the side od Humans in every Human-Charr and Human-Centaur conflict?

    Before the time of the humans, it is said the Charr had no gods, no concept of divine beings with more power than themselves. They knew of Melandru, and even had legends that described how she created the world. But to the Charr, these beings were not to be worshiped or feared–they were to be fought, and if possible, destroyed.

    After humans came and the charr were introduced with the idea of divinity, they gained creation myths of Melandru creating the world. That's kitten gods and god-like beings do in any mythology. So the charr viewed the Six as gods and not just "powerful beings".

    And just because the gods favor humans, doesn't mean non-humans cannot worship the Six. In fact, as has been pointed out multiple times in this thread, we have multiple cases of individuals and groups outside of humanity worshiping the Six either in full or partially. Doesn't mean the Six favored those worshipers, just that they were worshiped by them. However, favoring humans and Forgotten above other races, doesn't mean they are "the human gods" or "the Forgotten gods", as that kind of terminology belongs not to whom the gods favor, but to whom worships the gods in question.

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    Char "need no Gods". That means they believe nothing about the six. They are not interested if they are gods or not - because "Charr need no Gods". And this explain very well the only charr belief: They can do anything a god can do (no matter if they will need centuries to do what a "god"can do in days. They eventually will be able to do the same). So, this is the charr belief.

    That's not what the statement means. Charr are not atheists, they're antithiests. This means they accept divinity and godhood, but oppose it.

    The "charr need no gods" just means that the charr do not need to rely on gods. The statement comes from Pyre Fierceshot who was bent on overthrowing the Flame Legion and the Shaman Caste who were hellbent on the idea that charr needed the support of gods to counter humans and their support of gods. Pyre was not saying "gods do not exist!" he was saying "we do not need gods to win our battles, unlike those weak humans!"

    Context is key.

    For the Nords, I see the things a little different: Even if the Nords acknowledge the existence of the Six, they consider the Spirits of the Wild to be a more appropiated representation of a God. With other words, "Yes, the six are remarkable entities but we have our Gods. The six cannot compare with our Gods."

    Norn* not nord.

    The Spirits of the Wild are gods to the norn, however. Though they do not use the term "gods" their level of reverence and the level of attribution the Spirits get are on par to gods.

    Introduce Culture's A religion to another culture, and that second culture will not fully adopt Culture A's terms but utilize their own in relation to Culture A's. This is especially true for polytheistic faiths, who have no problem accepting that other pantheons exist out there.

    Just because the norn do not call them "gods" by that term, doesn't mean they think less of them. It's just a matter of different cultural terminology meaning the same thing.

    As for the Asuras - they are the closest to the real definition of what the six are: The six are part of the Eternal Alchemy. Like any asuran, like any charr, like any human. And, as we found when Balthazar tried to kill Jormag and Primordius, the six obeys the rules of the Eternal Alchemy. With other worlds, for the asuran the six are entirely common beings.

    I see nothing that proves that Balthazar "obeys the rules of Eternal Alchemy". But, by the way, the asuran's view of the Eternal Alchemy is how everything works together. Just because you're a part of the system that includes all existence doesn't mean you're not a god.

    Again, wrong. The Gods are more than "really powerful beings"

    Can you give some proofs of what you claim? How are the human gods "more than really powerfull beings"?

    I have, multiple times, in other threads. You just deny it because you're stuck on the monotheistic concept of godhood.

    And nothing really defines why the humans ever began worshiping the Six, since we don't know of their connection in the previous world before entering Tyria.

    This can be explained by the old Jotun stories -"In the begining the humans were as the grawls" - This can be a very plausible explanation.

    Except that Thrulnn the Lost is wrong on many accounts, and the relation between humans and gods is one proven thing that is wrong. Humans were brought ot the world by the Six Gods, so naturally the Six always had eyes on them, not just when "the humans came in boats from across the great water."

    Besides, humanity had built Fahranur within five years of landing on the Tyrian/Elonian continents. Do you really think Grawl could build Fahranur and establish a kingdom within five year's time? Do you honestly think Thrulnn is telling the truth there?

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    You completely missed the rational reasons WHY the gods would leave...

    Kormir: We, the gods, saw there could be no victory in our inevitable conflict with the Elder Dragons.
    Kormir: Waging war with them could only lead to the destruction of Tyria—and we, the Six, would be the match that would start the blaze.
    Kormir: And so, we chose to withdraw from Tyria altogether, and spare this world further calamity...Or rather, most of us chose to.

    Well, let's see what Kormir really says: If we fight the dragons, Tyria will be destroyed. So, to save Tyria they chose to withdraw.

    What Kormir says is a lie. Coming from the "godess of truth". Because by leaving the world the gods don't spare it from further calamity. They let the world to become the victim of a calamity - the Elder Dragons.

    She doesn't say "to save Tyria". kitten man, she was literally quoted right there for you.

    She says they withdrew to "spare this world further calamity". Meaning the calamity of Elder Dragons being killed. Not because she's lying, but because the Six Gods probably doubted the races would so easily do something that multiple cycles of races failed to do, especially when half of them were at each other's throats, both literally and figuratively, and one fifth of them didn't even exist yet.

    You are twisting words that are being quoted to you for the sake of making your argument. You know what that means? That your argument is false.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Aracz.4702Aracz.4702 Member ✭✭
    edited December 17, 2018

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    And just because the gods favor humans, doesn't mean non-humans cannot worship the Six.

    I haven't told anything like "non-humans cannot worship the Six" .-. And still, God in our (I mean, real persons, inhabitants of the Earth) perspective is something supreme. There is nothing more powerful (and for a lot of people of faith more important) than God (at least monotheistic concept of godhood). In Tyria, gods are really powerful beings, but not final form of thing. And only for worshippers they are holy or saint.
    And in polytheistic point of view, gods are really powerfull beings with great power, who are to worship and follow, aren't they?

    Still, I think... (quote from my previous post)"We should state how different races define gods (and how do we)"

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 17, 2018

    @Aracz.4702 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    And just because the gods favor humans, doesn't mean non-humans cannot worship the Six.

    I haven't told anything like "non-humans cannot worship the Six" .-. And still, God in our (I mean, real persons, inhabitants of the Earth) perspective is something supreme. There is nothing more powerful (and for a lot of people of faith more important) than God (at least monotheistic concept of godhood). In Tyria, gods are really powerful beings, but not final form of thing. And only for worshippers they are holy or saint.
    And in polytheistic point of view, gods are really powerfull beings with great power, who are to worship and follow, aren't they?

    I'd say you're incorrect about "God in our perpsective is something supreme." That is the monotheistic view, largely adapted by the Abrahamic faiths. But if you look at most - if not all - polytheistic faiths in this world both modern and historical, there is seldom an "all powerful" god and seldom a "nothing can be more powerful than the gods" scenario. Just because three religions of the same root have a particular definition for what a god is, doesn't deny all other definitions for what a god is, especially when there are hundreds who define the term differently. This seems to be the main crux of Cristalyan's issue, too.

    And in polytheistic view, gods are more than merely "really powerful beings". In most such religions, the gods were either directly born from, or are the (grand)children of those directly born from the primordial soup that created/would create all existence (aka whatever the myth's equivalent of the Big Bang was). Making the gods, effectively, the first beings or descended from such. In addition, in nearly every polytheistic religion, gods are unaging and capable of making species from the elements as well as transforming other beings.

    In the Tyrian setting, the Six Gods are gods first and foremost because that's how ArenaNet defines them. But we do have actual attributes tied to them that no other being has. From what we've observed:

    • Specific divine magic, which is indestructible and needs a host.
    • Has an aura that blinds mortals that look upon them.
    • Is capable of vast terraforming and transforming living beings.
    • Over generations, has a specific domain their specific divine magic is connected to. Related: the knowledge and power of previous gods combines with the knowledge and will of the replacement (when a god is killed).
    • Body breaks apart upon death, and appears to be hollow (no blood, muscle, etc.). Related: They themselves do not seem to be biologically alive; Kormir is said to have died upon ascending, while Balthazar was scanned and had no vitals registered, he merely registered on the scanner as pure magical energy.
    • Divinity can be stripped without killing the god, draining them of power but not restoring their biological design. Despite this, Dwayna (if not all gods) can have children (this may or may not be related to the fact she's the goddess of life, unconfirmed).
    • Unconfirmed but heavily implied: a single god cannot have the power of multiple gods nor can a god's power be divided (otherwise they would have split Abaddon's power among themselves).

    These are attributes that no other being, not even the powerful Elder Dragons (except #3), have. And as such, by all indications, these are the things that make them "the Six Gods".

    The question, really, is whether other gods - such as Koda, Zintl, or Mellaggan - hold any of these attributes.

    Still, I think... (quote from my previous post)"We should state how different races define gods (and how do we)"

    Like I said before, they really all define gods the same, ultimately. Charr, norn, asura, Forgotten, naga, centaur; by evidence, they all consider the Six to be gods, whether or not they would worship them.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • As I still think different races define gods in other ways (or just have other philosophy, for ones they are major, for other, minor, for ones allies and leaders, for other enemies), I am left to admit you are right. But not in 100%, and this is because irl humanity don't have only one officially accepted definition of god. In way which you presend The Six are gods, but in monotheism way of reasoning, they aren't. A complicated topic as for the conversation about the game :D

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    I'd say you're incorrect about "God in our perpsective is something supreme." That is the monotheistic view, largely adapted by the Abrahamic faiths. But if you look at most - if not all - polytheistic faiths in this world both modern and historical, there is seldom an "all powerful" god and seldom a "nothing can be more powerful than the gods" scenario. Just because three religions of the same root have a particular definition for what a god is, doesn't deny all other definitions for what a god is, especially when there are hundreds who define the term differently. This seems to be the main crux of Cristalyan's issue, too.

    I think the "godish essence" in all the definitions of the gods (the monotheisitc gods and the polytheistic gods also) is not "nothing can be more powerful than the gods" scenario, but the act of creation.

    And in polytheistic view, gods are more than merely "really powerful beings". In most such religions, the gods were either directly born from, or are the (grand)children of those directly born from the primordial soup that created/would create all existence (aka whatever the myth's equivalent of the Big Bang was). Making the gods, effectively, the first beings or descended from such. In addition, in nearly every polytheistic religion, gods are unaging and capable of making species from the elements as well as transforming other beings.

    Exactly. Let's leave the real world and let's see the Gods story from another game (it is the single player game Elder Scrolls). There, the priomordial beings inhabiting the un iverse from the very first moment (with other words "parts"of the primordial Universe) decided to add some order in that Universe. And they started to create the World (the Mundus), the Other World (Oblivion - the future "house"of the primordial beings), the sky / celestial bodies etc. To ensure the eternity of the creation they realised they should put the own imortality / eternity into the created Universe. Some of them refused to do that and ran away. The rest completed the Creation and lost the immortality - they turned into still very powerfull entities eternal if not killed but killable (mortals with other words). And indeed they were killed by the other primordial beings who refused to participate to the creation.
    Well, the Creators are known by the livings as "aedras"- the Creators and are worshipped as the true Gods. Although they are dead. The rest of the primordial beings, the part who refused to give up the imortality are the "daedra"- the ones who are not gods. So, although they are equally powerful, and even if the daedras cannot be killed, the difference is given by the creation act.

    This is something a non god cannot do. To create. This is not a monotheistic point of view. Most of the polytheistic cultures considers the creation as the "thing" only a god can do.

    In the Tyrian setting, the Six Gods are gods first and foremost because that's how ArenaNet defines them. But we do have actual attributes tied to them that no other being has. From what we've observed:

    • Specific divine magic, which is indestructible and needs a host.
    • Has an aura that blinds mortals that look upon them.
    • Is capable of vast terraforming and transforming living beings.
    • Over generations, has a specific domain their specific divine magic is connected to. Related: the knowledge and power of previous gods combines with the knowledge and will of the replacement (when a god is killed).
    • Body breaks apart upon death, and appears to be hollow (no blood, muscle, etc.). Related: They themselves do not seem to be biologically alive; Kormir is said to have died upon ascending, while Balthazar was scanned and had no vitals registered, he merely registered on the scanner as pure magical energy.
    • Divinity can be stripped without killing the god, draining them of power but not restoring their biological design. Despite this, Dwayna (if not all gods) can have children (this may or may not be related to the fact she's the goddess of life, unconfirmed).
    • Unconfirmed but heavily implied: a single god cannot have the power of multiple gods nor can a god's power be divided (otherwise they would have split Abaddon's power among themselves).
    1. The explanation with the "divine magic" is laughable at best. First at all, a real God needs nothing else to be. Second, needing a host, that means the "gods" cannot manifest themselves until the point a host appears (either created or appearing naturally, as in the Darwin evolutionistic theory). So, this "god" cannot be god unless a living appears. But by its very destructive nature the "divine energy" prevents the aparition of any organised form of material - including life. PATHETIC explanation for a God.
    2. The aura that can blind mortals - LOL! The chaos armor of the mesmers had this effect until few months ago. What I want to say is that blinding a mortal is NOT something worth to be considered a godish power. LOOOL ! Even more pathetic!
    3. Vast terraforming and transforming living beings - are you talking about Elder Dragons here? Our post was about gods.
    4. "Over generations, has a specific domain their specific divine magic is connected to". This and the first statement regarding the indestructible divine magic makes Kormir a joke - both statements combined means that Abadon is in fact alive (having now a new body). But even if Abadon is destroyed, the fact that a human can absorb its power means that Abadon may be everything but not a God.

    I stop here - nothing stated before makes that ... beings to be gods. In the end we have only the statement: In the Tyrian setting, the Six Gods are gods first and foremost because that's how ArenaNet defines them. This is the only true thing. Too bad that the lore team only heard of gods from stories and from movies. Because none of the actual members (at least the members with power to decide the story direction) is a believer. This is a story about gods written by atheists inspired by Star Treck / Star Wars.

  • ThatOddOne.4387ThatOddOne.4387 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 18, 2018

    And again, whilst that's your opinion, that's not what the Gods are in the Guild Wars universe. But they are still Gods because that's what the creators of the universe say they are.

  • Except that the writers define gods in the Guild Wars franchise in this exact method.

    Common definition and terminology means nothing if a writer decides it means something else in their specific setting.

    For example, the words charr and dredge. These are adjectives and verbs, but the writers use them as the name of species.

    ArenaNet says the Six are gods. Therefore, the Six are gods. No ands, ifs, or buts about it.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Narcemus.1348Narcemus.1348 Member ✭✭✭

    I do have to point out that there are quite a few inaccuracies in your explanation of the skyrim creation story. For one, many Aedra fled the creation of Mundus because they knew that it would claim their power. In fact, the stars and sun are the holes that they left as they fled. Also, the Aedra and Daedra are separated out based on the primordial being that they came from, not how they responded to the creation of Mundus. Also, the creation of the world, if I recall correctly, was the idea of the spawn of Sithis, as a plan to destroy the Aedra by stealing all of their power into the mortal world...

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