Mesmer utility and damage - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Mesmer utility and damage

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  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @tinyreborn.1938 said:

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @Daishi.6027 said:
    Mirage mechanical nerfs would be fair if burst didn’t revolve around a clunky mechanic that is exploitable by any player, and if it had higher coefficients for simple and quick direct attacks.

    Condi output, and specifically having significant damage synergy with blinds is the issue. People go on and on about “it evades while stunned” yet despite this power mirage is still considered mediocre, and carried by one combo with less frequency, and safety than other burst combos from any other class. (Excluding the nukey meme ele) If this is so strong and imbalanced why does it not simply top charts with both condi and power with teams trying to stack them?

    Every class has its sustain tools and methods. From warriors being bulky with passive healing, ele and holo’s easy and safe sustain cycles, to thief and ranger having way more access to evades and massive damage that comes out pretty quick sometimes at a distance, and in the case of guard, thief, and rev; while ignoring LoS.
    Some classes even have passive safety nets on top of already strong defensive tools. Mirage Clock is just another tool like these.

    The mechanic is strong but it’s not imba, it’s not that hard to play around nor is it outside the scope of the balance when once upon a time before elite specs, many classes and builds, including core Mesmer were not able to lock down a thief if they didn’t want to be. In the case of Mesmer, could barely even pressure with how illusions functioned since they required a target. Granted we’ve come a long way from that, now everyone has the tools to fight back against each other, mirage cloak is simply another of those tools and still allows for counter matchups. Although powerful is not that difficult to play around for any spec if you can read. Often with ranger and holo I’ve simply waited a second anticipating them to dodge, only to nuke and kill them right after.

    Yes, this means you HAVE to play around it, you don’t really have a choice, but the same can be said about Deadeye stealth, Warrior coldowns, and guard burst.

    Condi Mirage could use output shaves, but it’s defensive options don’t need to be touched. If you disincentives condi form stacking blinds I guarantee you will have a much more balanced build.

    Possibly. Blind doesn't help things when fighting a Condi Mirage, but they are tanky enough as is that they could slim down the defenses on Mirage in general. I don't like that one can still get melted into a puddle when running tanky stats like Trailblazer

    Its not WVW section , its pvp

    The funny thing about this statement is that damage creep has made even TB feel like paper in WvW. If more people in PvP would actually play WvW they might have a better handle on what actually is overpowered and truly see how broken the game is outside of their safe space PvP.

    So true, funny I'm kind of happy if running into any full TB mesmer in wvw because I can cleanse all their damage while they still get wrecked eating direct burst.

    Damage is kind of insane as well as mitigation leading to who can chain more defensive cooldowns than the other and then pseudo one-shot (or at least heavy burst) while the opponent left a window to get hit.

    My ears, how are you! | Kourna Jackrabbit for default Springer

  • @apharma.3741 said:

    @tinyreborn.1938 said:

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @Daishi.6027 said:
    Mirage mechanical nerfs would be fair if burst didn’t revolve around a clunky mechanic that is exploitable by any player, and if it had higher coefficients for simple and quick direct attacks.

    Condi output, and specifically having significant damage synergy with blinds is the issue. People go on and on about “it evades while stunned” yet despite this power mirage is still considered mediocre, and carried by one combo with less frequency, and safety than other burst combos from any other class. (Excluding the nukey meme ele) If this is so strong and imbalanced why does it not simply top charts with both condi and power with teams trying to stack them?

    Every class has its sustain tools and methods. From warriors being bulky with passive healing, ele and holo’s easy and safe sustain cycles, to thief and ranger having way more access to evades and massive damage that comes out pretty quick sometimes at a distance, and in the case of guard, thief, and rev; while ignoring LoS.
    Some classes even have passive safety nets on top of already strong defensive tools. Mirage Clock is just another tool like these.

    The mechanic is strong but it’s not imba, it’s not that hard to play around nor is it outside the scope of the balance when once upon a time before elite specs, many classes and builds, including core Mesmer were not able to lock down a thief if they didn’t want to be. In the case of Mesmer, could barely even pressure with how illusions functioned since they required a target. Granted we’ve come a long way from that, now everyone has the tools to fight back against each other, mirage cloak is simply another of those tools and still allows for counter matchups. Although powerful is not that difficult to play around for any spec if you can read. Often with ranger and holo I’ve simply waited a second anticipating them to dodge, only to nuke and kill them right after.

    Yes, this means you HAVE to play around it, you don’t really have a choice, but the same can be said about Deadeye stealth, Warrior coldowns, and guard burst.

    Condi Mirage could use output shaves, but it’s defensive options don’t need to be touched. If you disincentives condi form stacking blinds I guarantee you will have a much more balanced build.

    Possibly. Blind doesn't help things when fighting a Condi Mirage, but they are tanky enough as is that they could slim down the defenses on Mirage in general. I don't like that one can still get melted into a puddle when running tanky stats like Trailblazer

    Its not WVW section , its pvp

    The funny thing about this statement is that damage creep has made even TB feel like paper in WvW. If more people in PvP would actually play WvW they might have a better handle on what actually is overpowered and truly see how broken the game is outside of their safe space PvP.

    Even that wont help them .... Just as anet decided to nerf 'soulbeast' with actually buffing them to absurd level

  • James.1065James.1065 Member ✭✭✭

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @SteepledHat.1345 said:
    Something does need to be done. The playerbase needs to roll a mesmer and find it's weaknesses. There are many.

    That means nothing when the class is just in general not fun to fight against.

    Nothing is fun to fight against so much as they are fun to kill. Kind of like how AngelLovesFredrik unironically said that Core Mesmer is fun to fight in the "Are mesmers fun to fight" thread. Do you think that's because of the interesting elaborate dance and give and take of the match up between Core Guardian vs. Core Mesmer or because Core Mesmer is not a viable build in both ranked and AT has been largely abandoned by both great players and mediocre players since Heart of Thorns and are effectively free kills for Core Guardian to grind into the dirt, which is the class he mains?

    People think the classes they win against are fun to fight. The classes they often lose to are not fun to fight.

    I actually prefer challenging fights against good players. Even if I lose if the fight was good then I'm satisfied, or rather I keep trying to improve. Fighting Mirages is not fun, it doesn't even qualify as challenging its just annoying and exhausting. I have actually had some pretty good fights against Chronos and some Power Shatter Core mesmers because these players were actually good and no I did not win them all, this is not some GW2 Youtuber montage video where all the fights you see are them winning. I have 1v1s where its a back and forth, trading wins but I still enjoy that or I end up losing all of them but I still enjoyed the fight because they were good fights. I've fought Tubby 1v1 (RIP sucks that he quit) and I lost every single duel but I still enjoyed the fights.

    Also I could get into a whole discussion as to why Ranked, and I think by extension AT at this point, need to no longer be about Conquest and they need to induct either 2v2 matches as Ranked and AT or bring back team que (5 player premades) as an actual que option. At this point the former is probably the better idea, to keep it short, because Conquest is an outdated AoE creeped mess that gets worse with every expansion that releases and a 2v2 death match scenario sounds more preferable.

    I would like to see a 10 player death match style game mode.

    7 minutes long and whoever has the best kill/death ratio at the end wins

  • zoopop.5630zoopop.5630 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I'm a Mesmer main and I think they are perfectly balance as it is. I believe Power Spec needs some improvement overall but other then that the class is perfect.

  • Daishi.6027Daishi.6027 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @tinyreborn.1938 said:

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @Daishi.6027 said:
    Mirage mechanical nerfs would be fair if burst didn’t revolve around a clunky mechanic that is exploitable by any player, and if it had higher coefficients for simple and quick direct attacks.

    Condi output, and specifically having significant damage synergy with blinds is the issue. People go on and on about “it evades while stunned” yet despite this power mirage is still considered mediocre, and carried by one combo with less frequency, and safety than other burst combos from any other class. (Excluding the nukey meme ele) If this is so strong and imbalanced why does it not simply top charts with both condi and power with teams trying to stack them?

    Every class has its sustain tools and methods. From warriors being bulky with passive healing, ele and holo’s easy and safe sustain cycles, to thief and ranger having way more access to evades and massive damage that comes out pretty quick sometimes at a distance, and in the case of guard, thief, and rev; while ignoring LoS.
    Some classes even have passive safety nets on top of already strong defensive tools. Mirage Clock is just another tool like these.

    The mechanic is strong but it’s not imba, it’s not that hard to play around nor is it outside the scope of the balance when once upon a time before elite specs, many classes and builds, including core Mesmer were not able to lock down a thief if they didn’t want to be. In the case of Mesmer, could barely even pressure with how illusions functioned since they required a target. Granted we’ve come a long way from that, now everyone has the tools to fight back against each other, mirage cloak is simply another of those tools and still allows for counter matchups. Although powerful is not that difficult to play around for any spec if you can read. Often with ranger and holo I’ve simply waited a second anticipating them to dodge, only to nuke and kill them right after.

    Yes, this means you HAVE to play around it, you don’t really have a choice, but the same can be said about Deadeye stealth, Warrior coldowns, and guard burst.

    Condi Mirage could use output shaves, but it’s defensive options don’t need to be touched. If you disincentives condi form stacking blinds I guarantee you will have a much more balanced build.

    Possibly. Blind doesn't help things when fighting a Condi Mirage, but they are tanky enough as is that they could slim down the defenses on Mirage in general. I don't like that one can still get melted into a puddle when running tanky stats like Trailblazer

    Its not WVW section , its pvp

    The funny thing about this statement is that damage creep has made even TB feel like paper in WvW. If more people in PvP would actually play WvW they might have a better handle on what actually is overpowered and truly see how broken the game is outside of their safe space PvP.

    WvW was never designed to be balanced in the way people seem to want it to be, it was clearly stated since release that it was never going to be, and is exactly why I never really got into it.

    But if the highlighted statement is true, is ultimately problematic, and the player base wants more balance in that game system; then wouldn’t the more simple solution be to move the already more balanced formula to that system?

    Either way, regardless how you feel about it, appeals to WvW in this section are not valid. Arguing by it only serves to derail.

  • @zoopop.5630 said:
    I'm a Mesmer main and I think they are perfectly balance as it is. I believe Power Spec needs some improvement overall but other then that the class is perfect.

    I sure hope you are trolling. If you are seriously stating this. You really need to start playing other classes to get a good grip on what other classes CANT do.

  • zoopop.5630zoopop.5630 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ErazorZ.5209 said:

    @zoopop.5630 said:
    I'm a Mesmer main and I think they are perfectly balance as it is. I believe Power Spec needs some improvement overall but other then that the class is perfect.

    I sure hope you are trolling. If you are seriously stating this. You really need to start playing other classes to get a good grip on what other classes CANT do.

    I main engi and Necro.

    Mesmer 10x easier to play but to be honest power mirage is pretty kitten :cold_sweat: lmao

  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @zoopop.5630 said:

    @ErazorZ.5209 said:

    @zoopop.5630 said:
    I'm a Mesmer main and I think they are perfectly balance as it is. I believe Power Spec needs some improvement overall but other then that the class is perfect.

    I sure hope you are trolling. If you are seriously stating this. You really need to start playing other classes to get a good grip on what other classes CANT do.

    I main engi and Necro.

    Mesmer 10x easier to play but to be honest power mirage is pretty kitten :cold_sweat: lmao

    I actually observed the exact opposite with engi..( specifically Holo) .but that's probably because people haven't learned that eating the CC = big damage...
    though I guess it doesn't help I start it from stealth :I

    Tingle my stingleberry

  • Shadow Order.7258Shadow Order.7258 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 18, 2019

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    mirages make the best bots

    For Anet to up pvp population!

  • zoopop.5630zoopop.5630 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @zoopop.5630 said:

    @ErazorZ.5209 said:

    @zoopop.5630 said:
    I'm a Mesmer main and I think they are perfectly balance as it is. I believe Power Spec needs some improvement overall but other then that the class is perfect.

    I sure hope you are trolling. If you are seriously stating this. You really need to start playing other classes to get a good grip on what other classes CANT do.

    I main engi and Necro.

    Mesmer 10x easier to play but to be honest power mirage is pretty kitten :cold_sweat: lmao

    stealth in general is busted in this game. It shouldn't be used for offensive imo but that's a different topic/discussion for another time because let's be real any 0-100 combo for stealth is pretty aids.

  • @zoopop.5630 said:

    @zoopop.5630 said:

    @ErazorZ.5209 said:

    @zoopop.5630 said:
    I'm a Mesmer main and I think they are perfectly balance as it is. I believe Power Spec needs some improvement overall but other then that the class is perfect.

    I sure hope you are trolling. If you are seriously stating this. You really need to start playing other classes to get a good grip on what other classes CANT do.

    I main engi and Necro.

    Mesmer 10x easier to play but to be honest power mirage is pretty kitten :cold_sweat: lmao

    stealth in general is busted in this game. It shouldn't be used for offensive imo but that's a different topic/discussion for another time because let's be real any 0-100 combo for stealth is pretty aids.

    About 100-0 from stealth instant is that ...you described permastealth DE?

  • KryTiKaL.3125KryTiKaL.3125 Member ✭✭✭

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Daishi.6027 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @tinyreborn.1938 said:

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @Daishi.6027 said:
    Mirage mechanical nerfs would be fair if burst didn’t revolve around a clunky mechanic that is exploitable by any player, and if it had higher coefficients for simple and quick direct attacks.

    Condi output, and specifically having significant damage synergy with blinds is the issue. People go on and on about “it evades while stunned” yet despite this power mirage is still considered mediocre, and carried by one combo with less frequency, and safety than other burst combos from any other class. (Excluding the nukey meme ele) If this is so strong and imbalanced why does it not simply top charts with both condi and power with teams trying to stack them?

    Every class has its sustain tools and methods. From warriors being bulky with passive healing, ele and holo’s easy and safe sustain cycles, to thief and ranger having way more access to evades and massive damage that comes out pretty quick sometimes at a distance, and in the case of guard, thief, and rev; while ignoring LoS.
    Some classes even have passive safety nets on top of already strong defensive tools. Mirage Clock is just another tool like these.

    The mechanic is strong but it’s not imba, it’s not that hard to play around nor is it outside the scope of the balance when once upon a time before elite specs, many classes and builds, including core Mesmer were not able to lock down a thief if they didn’t want to be. In the case of Mesmer, could barely even pressure with how illusions functioned since they required a target. Granted we’ve come a long way from that, now everyone has the tools to fight back against each other, mirage cloak is simply another of those tools and still allows for counter matchups. Although powerful is not that difficult to play around for any spec if you can read. Often with ranger and holo I’ve simply waited a second anticipating them to dodge, only to nuke and kill them right after.

    Yes, this means you HAVE to play around it, you don’t really have a choice, but the same can be said about Deadeye stealth, Warrior coldowns, and guard burst.

    Condi Mirage could use output shaves, but it’s defensive options don’t need to be touched. If you disincentives condi form stacking blinds I guarantee you will have a much more balanced build.

    Possibly. Blind doesn't help things when fighting a Condi Mirage, but they are tanky enough as is that they could slim down the defenses on Mirage in general. I don't like that one can still get melted into a puddle when running tanky stats like Trailblazer

    Its not WVW section , its pvp

    The funny thing about this statement is that damage creep has made even TB feel like paper in WvW. If more people in PvP would actually play WvW they might have a better handle on what actually is overpowered and truly see how broken the game is outside of their safe space PvP.

    WvW was never designed to be balanced in the way people seem to want it to be, it was clearly stated since release that it was never going to be, and is exactly why I never really got into it.

    But if the highlighted statement is true, is ultimately problematic, and the player base wants more balance in that game system; then wouldn’t the more simple solution be to move the already more balanced formula to that system?

    Either way, regardless how you feel about it, appeals to WvW in this section are not valid. Arguing by it only serves to derail.

    Oh yeah I agree WvW arguments have less merit here. I also mentioned a while back it would be nice to see PvP balance moved over to WvW which went down like the Hindenburg but ANet has taken steps to do that....with every class except ranger. Druid and soulbeast are several kinds of broken in WvW, even more so than condi mirage and I wish I was joking or downplaying it.

    I actually severely dislike how gutted the sPvP stat balance is. Its exactly why I wish they would move away from Conquest as a game mode, its outdated and it perpetuates cheese'd build setups that went from bunker builds to just cheese AoE builds to exploit the minuscule size of the capture points in comparison to the radii of AoE. Would deathmatch be any better? We won't know because they removed the map for it from Ranked rotation because people whined about it. It wasn't even really because Deathmatch is unbalanced or not easy to balance around, its that it was just the only different game type in Ranked aside from Stronghold which I'm pretty sure no one actually ques for. I'm sure people enjoy Conquest, but honestly at this point the state of the class mechanics makes Conquest a detrimental aspect of sPvP rather than make it better. I feel like a lot of the people that still argue that Conquest is super competitive and a good game mode and sPvP isn't a disaster are those players that make it into the top 250 and want it to mean something which, sorry to burst your bubble, top 250 means nothing these days.

    Also of course WvW arguments have less merit here, its sPvP and it functions differently. Are there cheesey builds in WvW? Of course, but its both of these modes and the cheesey disaster balance in general in any PvP game mode that needs to get looked at. I brought it up because I genuinely forgot which section I was posting in so relax.

  • @Solori.6025 said:

    @zoopop.5630 said:

    @ErazorZ.5209 said:

    @zoopop.5630 said:
    I'm a Mesmer main and I think they are perfectly balance as it is. I believe Power Spec needs some improvement overall but other then that the class is perfect.

    I sure hope you are trolling. If you are seriously stating this. You really need to start playing other classes to get a good grip on what other classes CANT do.

    I main engi and Necro.

    Mesmer 10x easier to play but to be honest power mirage is pretty kitten :cold_sweat: lmao

    I actually observed the exact opposite with engi..( specifically Holo) .but that's probably because people haven't learned that eating the CC = big damage...
    though I guess it doesn't help I start it from stealth :I

    Its easy to say, "Eating the CC = Big damage" when mesmer can just dodgeroll out of the CC.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 24, 2019

    Tbh the whole mirage cloak thing should just not be on dodge at all, it's like having a free F4 every 10 seconds. How about just making so that you have to work with the mirrors and clones instead? Wouldn't that bring back some challenge in playing mesmer? Because once upon a time I remember clones took some work to generate and so did applying damage while avoiding it.

    I'm fairly certain mesmers don't need clones after phantasms either, not to troll but back then it seemed more fun to play and build up your bursts, not constantly have them available and recklessly faceroll your entire setup.

    Because if we keep nerfing damage (which is not really the issue.), the moment we actually get the sustain nerfed, mirage will have no condition output at all. Like seriously, really gonna do something about that mirage cloak.

    Hell I rarely see ANY mesmers autoattacking or making up clones with weapons although some do, it's just constant phantasms after phantasms with already having 3 clones up that you end up with so much kitten now it's just a clutter and mess of spammy effects that regardless of how you play it takes you a few seconds to make out what's going on. The clone generation is just another mess on the side of chronomancer which the spam is so reckless you might as well just not even try unless you have constant AoE attacks to get rid of the spam, not every professions have an easy access to that either.

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