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Mesmer utility and damage


Moirg.7560

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Mesmer has every bit of utility you could ask for topped off with: clones, hard immunity and thief level frequency of invis if not more. Sustained damage is excellent and burst is instant making it harder to counter than most other classes/specs. This is no secret and is abused to the point where ranked teams are running 2/3 and even 4 mesmers. I'm only high gold, however my plat guildies (some previously legendary) say the problem doesn't stop in my league.

It's so oppressive to the point where I'd rather pull a fish-hook out of my stomach with a string than continue to play this game with its current surplus of mesmer BS.

Something needs to be done about it. Many things could be done, but capping their clone count at a lower number than it currently is would be a good start.

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@Solori.6025 said:

@Moirg.7560 said:thief level frequency of invis if not more.How ?

The mirage trait that gives them dodge on stealth, but twice as much as Deadeye, obviously.

I thought it was our Cloak and dagger skill on scepter.

Nah if you run that much stealth you cross over the threshold and your character literally stops existing.

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@"SteepledHat.1345" said:Something does need to be done. The playerbase needs to roll a mesmer and find it's weaknesses. There are many.

That means nothing when the class is just in general not fun to fight against. This also coupled with the fact that it can use Mirage Cloak while CC'd to negate "finding its weakness". The weaknesses generally being timing around defenses (evades, invulns, block with scepter, etc) and killing their clones. The former being negated by Mirage Cloak being usable while CC'd if one is even able to land CC on them and the latter is negated by Mirage Cloak being applied to all illusions whenever the Mirage itself gains Mirage Cloak.

Stop trying to hide behind that as an excuse, it doesn't work anymore at least not with Mirage because it has tools that essentially negate anything you can exploit as a weakness.

"Just kill the clones" proceeds to proc Mirage Cloak on all illusions"Just time around their defenses, they have cooldowns" proceeds to proc Mirage Cloak after they get CC'd

Please keep in mind I have no issue with Mirage Cloak, I have issue with how things have been built around it and that those things (Mirage Cloak while CC'd primarily) make fighting Mirages an exhausting and not at all fun experience. What if a Spellbreaker could just proc Full Counter whenever they got CC'd and it had no cooldown or was on the same cooldown it has now? What if the Thief trait "Instant Reflexes" in Acrobatics procced whenever the Thief was CC'd or allowed them to activate an evade whenever they were CC'd, on no ICD or CD?

Know what I've come to find out? I will fight a Mirage 1v1 and they will have their evades, invluns, whatever all well chained together and then kite and then just do it all over again all while applying conditions or doing damage and its a long, drawn out exhausting fight. Know what happens when I ask these players to 1v1 me on Chrono or Core? They lose. Hard. At least typically they do, there are good Mesmers out there, I just find that Mirage is just the go to overtuned spec and it would be silly not to use it. Of course, I get that, its why people used Spellbreaker, Scourge, Soulbeast, and whatever before nerfs or anything hit them and Soulbeast is arguably still kind of dumbly broken and of course Deadeye is still silly despite Death's Judgment being made blockable. Perma stealth really shouldn't be a thing.

All that aside, just because its silly to not go Mirage when it is so strong doesn't justify ignoring efforts or requests to nerf it. Its also really simple...Infinite Horizon...put an ICD on the damn thing and make it so Mirage Cloak cannot be applied to the Mirage when they are CC'd. I'll wait for the Mirage complaints, I'm sure there will be many.

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@KryTiKaL.3125 said:

@"SteepledHat.1345" said:Something does need to be done. The playerbase needs to roll a mesmer and find it's weaknesses. There are many.

That means nothing when the class is just in general not fun to fight against.

Nothing is fun to fight against so much as they are fun to kill. Kind of like how AngelLovesFredrik unironically said that Core Mesmer is fun to fight in the "Are mesmers fun to fight" thread. Do you think that's because of the interesting elaborate dance and give and take of the match up between Core Guardian vs. Core Mesmer or because Core Mesmer is not a viable build in both ranked and AT has been largely abandoned by both great players and mediocre players since Heart of Thorns and are effectively free kills for Core Guardian to grind into the dirt, which is the class he mains?

People think the classes they win against are fun to fight. The classes they often lose to are not fun to fight.

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Moirg.7560 said:thief level frequency of invis if not more.How ?

The mirage trait that gives them dodge on stealth, but twice as much as Deadeye, obviously.

I thought it was our Cloak and dagger skill on scepter.

Nah if you run that much stealth you cross over the threshold and your character literally stops existing.

Maybe that would be a good thing, at least then I wont have to deal with the forum tears about literally everything a mesmer does

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"SteepledHat.1345" said:Something does need to be done. The playerbase needs to roll a mesmer and find it's weaknesses. There are many.

That means nothing when the class is just in general not fun to fight against.

Nothing is fun to fight against so much as they are
fun to kill
. Kind of like how AngelLovesFredrik unironically said that Core Mesmer is fun to fight in the "Are mesmers fun to fight" thread. Do you think that's because of the interesting elaborate dance and give and take of the match up between Core Guardian vs. Core Mesmer or because Core Mesmer is not a viable build in both ranked and AT has been largely abandoned by both great players and mediocre players since Heart of Thorns and are effectively free kills for Core Guardian to grind into the dirt, which is the class he mains?

People think the classes they win against are fun to fight. The classes they often lose to are not fun to fight.

I actually prefer challenging fights against good players. Even if I lose if the fight was good then I'm satisfied, or rather I keep trying to improve. Fighting Mirages is not fun, it doesn't even qualify as challenging its just annoying and exhausting. I have actually had some pretty good fights against Chronos and some Power Shatter Core mesmers because these players were actually good and no I did not win them all, this is not some GW2 Youtuber montage video where all the fights you see are them winning. I have 1v1s where its a back and forth, trading wins but I still enjoy that or I end up losing all of them but I still enjoyed the fight because they were good fights. I've fought Tubby 1v1 (RIP sucks that he quit) and I lost every single duel but I still enjoyed the fights.

Also I could get into a whole discussion as to why Ranked, and I think by extension AT at this point, need to no longer be about Conquest and they need to induct either 2v2 matches as Ranked and AT or bring back team que (5 player premades) as an actual que option. At this point the former is probably the better idea, to keep it short, because Conquest is an outdated AoE creeped mess that gets worse with every expansion that releases and a 2v2 death match scenario sounds more preferable.

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If you're going to hit Condition Mirage Damage in PvP, these are the nerfs you want to do:

Mirage Cloak No Longer Works while Stunned, Knocked Back, Launched, or floated. Elusive Mind does something else entirely.I mean come on, it's been over a year now and everyone know this is a toxic behavior especially mesmers since it's inception.

Deceptive EvasionClones Spawned by Deceptive Evasion no longer spawn automatically doing their Ambush attack with Infinite Horizon.It's a fun trait synergy, but I think it's too much with Infinite Horizon. Infinite Horizon rewards spawning and maintaining three clones at once, and with all the AoE and cleave spilling around is actually somewhat difficult. But the investment in having and maintaining clones is undercut when a dodge roll doesn't just spawn a clone, but also automatically gives you the damage is putting too much into the value of one dodge even for Mirage. Deceptive Evasion is fine, but they shouldn't ambush until the Mirage Cloak after they initially spawn. This directly impacts the chaos variant of mirage, with it's gradual but much higher sustained condition damage and 1v1 potential.

Cry of PainCry of Pain has been reverted back to Illusionary Retribution and instead of two additional stack of confusion per shatter with Cry of Frustration just apply 1 confusion per shatter for all of their shatter skills.I think a lot of people really missed how much this trait impacted Mesmer in PvP. Just a refresher for those not in the know, it used to be Illusionary Retribution, which had all shatter skills apply confusion on shatter until the phantasm rework. The end result is that a 3 Clone Mind Wrack or Distraction would both apply 4 stacks of confusion, and a three clone Cry of Frustration would apply 8 stacks of confusion. However, during the Phantasm rework last February they switched it so that it now gives Cry of Frustration 2 additional stacks of confusion, front loading ALL of the Mesmer's potential Confusion shatter output into just one shatter. Now Cry of Frustration on it's own if it lands is 12 stacks of confusion just right there and that doesn't even count Blinding Disipation+Ineptitude. This made Illusions condi mirage FAR burstier than it had been previously. This along side confusion being altered to do almost no damage per second and all of it's damage on skill activation is why suddenly condition mirages were melting people so, so hard after the phantasm rework.

I'm personally fine with confusion doing large amounts of damage on skill activation, I like it from both a game play and flavor perspective, but Cry of Pain front loads too much. Cry of Frustration should clearly be a condition mesmer's bread and butter, but spreading the condition application out so that it requires more successful comboing of shatters to reap the benefits of it would be much healthier than what we have now.

Axes of SymmetryEither nerf the confusion stacks to PvE levels (Three from Player for those not in the know), remove the detarget, or remove the evade. Bump the cooldown up to 15 seconds base 12 seconds traited regardless of which aspect is nerfed. Pick two you can't have three. As a selfish mirage main I want the damage and the evade and am happy to lose the detarget.

After that, I really don't want too much else touched until condition cleanses and condition damage spreads are normalized at which point I would have a ton of changes I would like to see with mesmer and mirage in specific. Under the spoiler tag is my points on condition cleanses being heavily overtuned in the grand scheme of things.

In general I would prefer mesmers of all stripes to win matches more through their unique team and solo utility rather than their ability to slam down kills. Stuff like Portal, Illusion of Life, Null Field, Arcane Thievery, Signet of Humility and Mass invisibility should be lynchpins of mesmer success across all builds in ranked and AT. But Portal was nerfed and everything else interesting is outright bad aside from Arcane Thievery. It should be a cerebral high skill cap class. But portal was nerfed so condition slammer it is I guess.

! "Aside from Mirage and Scourge nothing are rocking condition damage. And Reaper is at the very least just as popular of a build for ranked as Scourge if not moderately more popular than Scourge. The reality is condition cleanses and conversion into boons are both extremely over tuned at this point. Most classes can quickly throw off 3-7+ conditions repeatedly over the course of a single fight, or have strong resistance uptime. Scourge and Mirage are the only condition classes capable of keeping up not because their condition damage is high (It's not. Scourge and Mirage are actually some of the lowest condition damage available) but because they have a wide range of conditions (Or in Scourge's case a wide range of conditions and boon corruption) that gives their conditions a chance to dodge condition cleanses entirely.!! Condition damage has completely fallen behind Power Damage in the scheme of things. To put this into perspective; Condition Berserker, Condition Firebrand, Condition Weaver, and Condition Holosmith have the higher condition pressure. Far, far beyond what Condition Mirage and Scourge are capable of. But even putting aside other weaknesses in those builds, the single biggest weakness that prevents them from ever becoming meta is the fact that when every class can effortlessly throw off 5+ conditions multiple times a fight, the bulk of their damage being tied down into one or two conditions means their effective damage output is zero.!! Arenanet really needs to look at both normalizing the spread of conditions, balancing all classes around 2-3 damaging conditions with more serious ramping power. And also heavily pulling back condition cleanses to compensate for it. Cleanses are the condition damage equivalent to protection. It's supposed to help you negate damage, but at this point unless you're a build that can shotgun 6 conditions at once your effective damage output as condi is 0.!! Anet should nerf condition cleanses by 50%+ across the board then trim Mirage's condition spread and condense it into fewer conditions. Right now power damage is absolutely over tuned compared to condition damage 7/9 classes are exclusively running power on a meta level. Mirage is mostly exclusively condi and Necro run a 50/50 split of condi and power.!! I really want to see all the condition cleanses and conversions straight up reduced by 50%-75%. I genuinely think that's needed. Mesmers should have their cover conditions trimmed and their damaging conditions condensed into fewer conditions, mostly torment and confusion for thematic reasons with maybe a bit of burning with the torch skills. I think the reason you've seen tons of power creep when it comes to conditions cleanses is because Anet is a bit too focused on the only two meta builds keeping up and is power creeping cleanses in an arm race.!! But like let's say a Burn Firebrand vs. a Core Guardian. The Firebrand has a lot of self sustain just like the core guardian, it has easy application of it's condition skills. But that burn Firebrand will never be able to hurt the Core Guardian. How could it? The Firebrand has almost entirely burning and a little bit of bleed. And that's somehow supposed to punch through this:!! 2x Condition Cleanse on Heal with Lesser Smite Condition! 2x Condition Cleanse on Virtue of Resolve! 2x Condition Cleanse on Smite Condition.! 12x Condition Conversion on Contemplation of Purity! Condition Immunity during Renewed Focus! 2x condition Cleanse on Virtue of Resolve!! Now I'm not saying that Core Guardian is OP. It's not and it fits into the meta moderately well, but it's condition cleanses are so over the top for anything not a Scourge or a Mirage and against Mirage at least it can survive for a while.!! Or warriors who have:! Healing Signet 6 seconds resistance! 12x Condition Cleanse with Signet of Stamina! 6x Condition Cleanse x 2 with Shake it Off! Maybe running Berserker Stance still 4 seconds resistance!! Unless you're a Mirage or Scourge you aren't going to be able to punch through that with condition damage. Period."

@KryTiKaL.3125 said:

@"SteepledHat.1345" said:Something does need to be done. The playerbase needs to roll a mesmer and find it's weaknesses. There are many.

That means nothing when the class is just in general not fun to fight against.

Nothing is fun to fight against so much as they are
fun to kill
. Kind of like how AngelLovesFredrik unironically said that Core Mesmer is fun to fight in the "Are mesmers fun to fight" thread. Do you think that's because of the interesting elaborate dance and give and take of the match up between Core Guardian vs. Core Mesmer or because Core Mesmer is not a viable build in both ranked and AT has been largely abandoned by both great players and mediocre players since Heart of Thorns and are effectively free kills for Core Guardian to grind into the dirt, which is the class he mains?

People think the classes they win against are fun to fight. The classes they often lose to are not fun to fight.

I actually prefer challenging fights against
good
players. Even if I lose if the fight was
good
then I'm satisfied, or rather I keep trying to improve. Fighting Mirages is not fun, it doesn't even qualify as challenging its just
annoying
and
exhausting
. I have actually had some pretty good fights against Chronos and some Power Shatter Core mesmers because these players were actually
good
and no I did not win them all, this is not some GW2 Youtuber montage video where all the fights you see are them winning. I have 1v1s where its a back and forth, trading wins but I still enjoy that or I end up losing all of them but I still enjoyed the fight because they were good fights. I've fought Tubby 1v1 (RIP sucks that he quit) and I lost every single duel but I still enjoyed the fights.

Also I could get into a whole discussion as to why Ranked, and I think by extension AT at this point, need to no longer be about Conquest and they need to induct either 2v2 matches as Ranked and AT or bring back team que (5 player premades) as an actual que option. At this point the former is probably the better idea, to keep it short, because Conquest is an outdated AoE creeped mess that gets worse with every expansion that releases and a 2v2 death match scenario sounds more preferable.

You want to know how sick, messed up, hardcore and edgy I am? When someone tells me "Good Fight" all I respond with isCDM9r8Y.png

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

Mirage Cloak No Longer Works while Stunned, Knocked Back, Launched, or floated. Elusive Mind does something else entirely.I mean come on, it's been over a year now and everyone know this is a toxic behavior especially mesmers since it's inception.

It's truly bizarre, because this change has been something everyone including even mirage mains agree is busted.

And yet it's still in the game in this broken state.

  1. Remove dodging through CC
  2. Rework elusive mind to just remove 2 condis and have absolutely nothing to do with breaking stuns

I mean is it really that hard?

Anet could release a balance patch with just those two changes alone, nothing else, and the meta would be in a better state.

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Another day, another mesmer complaint thread.

Anyone who's followed these should see that most mesmer mains are pretty reasonable. Candidly proposing major changes and nerfs to their favored class where appropriate, but setting misconceptions straight when they surface.

Mesmer may be the hardest l2p against profession, but that alone doesn't make it broken. Many good suggestions have been made here and elsewhere but at some point it really does become a l2p issue.

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@Master Ketsu.4569 said:

Mirage Cloak No Longer Works while Stunned, Knocked Back, Launched, or floated. Elusive Mind does something else entirely.
I mean come on, it's been over a year now and everyone know this is a toxic behavior especially mesmers since it's inception.

It's truly bizarre, because this change has been something everyone including even mirage mains agree is busted.

And yet it's still in the game in this broken state.
  1. Remove dodging through CC
  2. Rework elusive mind to just remove 2 condis and have absolutely nothing to do with breaking stuns

I mean is it really that hard?

Anet could release a balance patch with just those two changes alone, nothing else, and the meta would be in a better state.

Fine, but all passive survival traits need to not activate if you are CC'ed. No free immunities for you. I mean, we have to at least press our dodge and it lasts a lot less than most passive immunities/invulns/dodges.

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"SteepledHat.1345" said:Something does need to be done. The playerbase needs to roll a mesmer and find it's weaknesses. There are many.

That means nothing when the class is just in general not fun to fight against.

Nothing is fun to fight against so much as they are
fun to kill
. Kind of like how AngelLovesFredrik unironically said that Core Mesmer is fun to fight in the "Are mesmers fun to fight" thread. Do you think that's because of the interesting elaborate dance and give and take of the match up between Core Guardian vs. Core Mesmer or because Core Mesmer is not a viable build in both ranked and AT has been largely abandoned by both great players and mediocre players since Heart of Thorns and are effectively free kills for Core Guardian to grind into the dirt, which is the class he mains?

People think the classes they win against are fun to fight. The classes they often lose to are not fun to fight.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/780415#Comment_780415Feel free to check

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@SteepledHat.1345 said:

Mirage Cloak No Longer Works while Stunned, Knocked Back, Launched, or floated. Elusive Mind does something else entirely.
I mean come on, it's been over a year now and everyone know this is a toxic behavior especially mesmers since it's inception.

It's truly bizarre, because this change has been something everyone including even mirage mains agree is busted.

And yet it's still in the game in this broken state.
  1. Remove dodging through CC
  2. Rework elusive mind to just remove 2 condis and have absolutely nothing to do with breaking stuns

I mean is it really that hard?

Anet could release a balance patch with just those two changes alone, nothing else, and the meta would be in a better state.

Fine, but all passive survival traits need to not activate if you are CC'ed. No free immunities for you. I mean, we have to at least press our dodge and it lasts a lot less than most passive immunities/invulns/dodges.

Except yours doesn't have nearly as long of a cooldown as these other immunities/invulns/dodges. Endure Pain on Warrior? 60 second ICD in WvW 90 second ICD in sPvP. Instant Reflexes on thief? 40 second ICD for 2 second evade. Elixir S? No longer a passive proc but the active skill yes lasts for a while but even so still on a longer cooldown than Mirage Cloak ever is.

Yes Mirage has one that you need to activate yourself, but it is much more readily available than these passives that you're trying to call out. You guys have enough defenses while not CC'd, bringing this one down to an acceptable level isn't going to invalidate your class against other classes. Don't worry, you're still going to be able to chain defenses, kite, and then rinse and repeat like you always did only if this change happens then if you get CC'd you get punished...as you should.

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@"SteepledHat.1345" said:Something does need to be done. The playerbase needs to roll a mesmer and find it's weaknesses. There are many.

Why eat cheese when I don't want cheese? What is with this off the line response to everything "play this class to find its weakness!! It has many!!" as excuse for something not over performing. Mirage is OP Period. Yes, mirage has weaknesses, few (Yep!, few, not many) and far between that mistakes are not penalized compared to any other class.

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@SteepledHat.1345 said:

Mirage Cloak No Longer Works while Stunned, Knocked Back, Launched, or floated. Elusive Mind does something else entirely.
I mean come on, it's been over a year now and everyone know this is a toxic behavior especially mesmers since it's inception.

It's truly bizarre, because this change has been something everyone including even mirage mains agree is busted.

And yet it's still in the game in this broken state.
  1. Remove dodging through CC
  2. Rework elusive mind to just remove 2 condis and have absolutely nothing to do with breaking stuns

I mean is it really that hard?

Anet could release a balance patch with just those two changes alone, nothing else, and the meta would be in a better state.

Fine, but all passive survival traits need to not activate if you are CC'ed. No free immunities for you. I mean, we have to at least press our dodge and it lasts a lot less than most passive immunities/invulns/dodges.

To be fair, the change to Auto S last patch was perhaps the biggest hit towards passive saves we've ever seen in GW2. I hope there's more.

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Does everyone nowadays do not read the forums but just comes here to release some brain pressure? There are plenty of Mesmer complain threads and Anet already summed some up to structure the "feedback". Dig them out, read them from start to end and then push them up by adding your own thoughts and suggestions. Most was said already. It does not help to flood the forums with quadouble-threads about the same nonsense. kkthxbb

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@SteepledHat.1345 said:

Mirage Cloak No Longer Works while Stunned, Knocked Back, Launched, or floated. Elusive Mind does something else entirely.
I mean come on, it's been over a year now and everyone know this is a toxic behavior especially mesmers since it's inception.

It's truly bizarre, because this change has been something everyone including even mirage mains agree is busted.

And yet it's still in the game in this broken state.
  1. Remove dodging through CC
  2. Rework elusive mind to just remove 2 condis and have absolutely nothing to do with breaking stuns

I mean is it really that hard?

Anet could release a balance patch with just those two changes alone, nothing else, and the meta would be in a better state.

Fine, but all passive survival traits need to not activate if you are CC'ed. No free immunities for you. I mean, we have to at least press our dodge and it lasts a lot less than most passive immunities/invulns/dodges.

That would be ideal and should have been done a long time ago IMO.

Funfact: Tera PvP went through this problem and just disabled all passives that auto-trigger to save you from death because they were broken. They legit rewrote their code so that if you took damage from a player the passive would stop working. The kicker is these passives had over triple the cooldown as the ones we get in GW2 and even then it was determined to be broken.

Anet seriously underestimates just how strong get out of jail free cards really are. The fact that people still take them even after the cooldowns for most of them were doubled a few seasons ago should really raise a massive red flag.

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@SteepledHat.1345 said:

Mirage Cloak No Longer Works while Stunned, Knocked Back, Launched, or floated. Elusive Mind does something else entirely.
I mean come on, it's been over a year now and everyone know this is a toxic behavior especially mesmers since it's inception.

It's truly bizarre, because this change has been something everyone including even mirage mains agree is busted.

And yet it's still in the game in this broken state.
  1. Remove dodging through CC
  2. Rework elusive mind to just remove 2 condis and have absolutely nothing to do with breaking stuns

I mean is it really that hard?

Anet could release a balance patch with just those two changes alone, nothing else, and the meta would be in a better state.

Fine, but all passive survival traits need to not activate if you are CC'ed. No free immunities for you. I mean, we have to at least press our dodge and it lasts a lot less than most passive immunities/invulns/dodges.

There are no traits in this game that give you invuln/evade on being CC'ed. Beyond that there are only 3 traits in the entire game that give you invuln/evade passively, and they all have cooldowns in excess of 70s.

But tell me more about how those 3 70s cooldown traits are totally equal to mirage's sub 10s dodge cooldown

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@Crinn.7864 said:

Mirage Cloak No Longer Works while Stunned, Knocked Back, Launched, or floated. Elusive Mind does something else entirely.
I mean come on, it's been over a year now and everyone know this is a toxic behavior especially mesmers since it's inception.

It's truly bizarre, because this change has been something everyone including even mirage mains agree is busted.

And yet it's still in the game in this broken state.
  1. Remove dodging through CC
  2. Rework elusive mind to just remove 2 condis and have absolutely nothing to do with breaking stuns

I mean is it really that hard?

Anet could release a balance patch with just those two changes alone, nothing else, and the meta would be in a better state.

Fine, but all passive survival traits need to not activate if you are CC'ed. No free immunities for you. I mean, we have to at least press our dodge and it lasts a lot less than most passive immunities/invulns/dodges.

There are no traits in this game that give you invuln/evade on being CC'ed. Beyond that there are only 3 traits in the entire game that give you invuln/evade passively, and they all have cooldowns in excess of 70s.

But tell me more about how those 3 70s cooldown traits are totally equal to
mirage's sub 10s dodge cooldown

What?

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