Conjure weapons and the drop mechanic — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Conjure weapons and the drop mechanic

I was just curious on how everyone thought about the whole "drop mechanic" of the Conjure weapons. Personally I feel like it should be changed since when in actual combat (and not on the golem) it's very unrealistic in most boss fights that you will be able to pick up the dropped weapon when you need to use it again. Which for me a one use 60 sec cool down on a utility just doesn't seem worth it at all. Personally I feel, in order to mitigate the validity of the conjure weapons as a whole something needs to change, either the drop mechanic or the cool down.

I think for me personally the conjure weapons should be put into a ammunition charge, and forgo the dropping of the other conjure weapon as a whole. While I understand that the main reason the Conjure weapons exists is for other players to pick them up, and "support" your team, the Conjure weapons were never seen as a utility to display the support idea even way back into the first year gw2 was launched. The Conjure weapons were in the same boat as the guardian's spirit weapons which were utilities no one ever used, at least not competitively in wvw, pvp, and or pve content (other then new players who were oblivious of their pitfalls later in end game content). Alas, the guardian's spirit weapons got a very good overhaul in viability! and I'm very happy for them! however, the Conjure weapons have never been touched, since the game has launched, other then the nerfs to the damage that they produce, but the basic concept still exists. The damage was the only reason why people would ever use the frost, and lightning hammer, and I pity the earth and fire conjure weapons as they have never seen the light of day of viability since launch.

I just wanted to know how others felt in the concern of the Conjure weapons as a whole. And wanted to see if the community has the same concerns about them as I do.

Comments

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I've just started playing around with these in OWPvE. Mind you, I am VERY casual so I'm certain YMMV.

    I would like to conjure them a bit faster; however, I do like the drop mechanic as I can drop a weapon in the field and work my way around the target to pick it up when my initial one expires. This keeps me from being too stationary. I'm still playing around with this and getting used to the timing of things so my opinion could change.

    I can see where others have mentioned conjured weapons not really packing a significant punch and I agree. Again -- I'm casual, so it really isn't a big deal for me. I find using them allows me to attack faster than with my staff so maybe damage over time compensates?

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • MoriMoriMori.5349MoriMoriMori.5349 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 9, 2019

    I can see where others have mentioned conjured weapons not really packing a significant punch

    I wonder, did they mean all weapons, or certain of them? I'm playing as, let's say, semi-casual :) (casual-hardcore :) ) dagger/dagger ele, and I find a lot of utility in the Bow and FGS. As d/d, I often lack range in cases when I don't want to be too close to something dangerours (usually in big fights with powerful creatures, and when FGS is on cooldown, or I save it for later), so the Bow helps a lot, and offers stun on 5 and powerful AoE on 4, and some healing ability as well, to help others. And FGS offers me tons of punch when it's really needed (in huge fights with powerful mobs, especially when there are 2+ of them); I can't imagine how I would be fighting all those Crystal Desert mobs without it (exploring it as a core 80lv Ele, don't use elite specs yet), as they usually come in numbers, and deliver a stunning amount of damage. The only way I manage to survive is through constant motion and occasional crowd control; FGS offers you a lot of evade and speed, and punch as well, with its quick and powerful AoE attacks.

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Good points. As I said, I'm still playing around with these weapons. Your post gives me more insight to their potential.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • The 1sec cast time + the area targeting are the reason why nobody use them. I agree ammunition charge with no/low cast time would help a lot; even the earth shield would be usefull if we can use the #2 and #3 repeatedly.

  • MithranArkanere.8957MithranArkanere.8957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 9, 2019

    I think these weapons could work better if they worked like a mix of kits and mantras:

    Once the Conjure skill is equipped, you would have to activate it and channel for 2¾s, like with mantras, and it would flip over to a kit with an ammo counter.
    The skill would no longer produce a second weapon, or only produce it when traited with Conjurer.
    The kit skill would have 60 ammo, and you would be able to freely use the skills and equip the weapon at will as long as you have ammo left.

    • Skill 1 would consume no ammo, or just 1 ammo and get improved a bit.
    • Skills 2 to 3 would consume ammo depending on their recharge and effects. The lower the recharge and the greater the effects of the skill, the more ammo it'll use.
    • Skill 5 would use all remaining ammo for a great effect but also increase the recharge of the skill by 1s for every 2 charges spent. Skills would be shuffled a bit to put in slot 5 the most game-changing, powerful or dangerous skill from each weapon:
      • Conjure Earth Shield - Fortify. Remaining ammo increases its duration. When used over 90 ammo, it also removes 1/3 of all conditions suffered.
      • Conjure Flame Axe- Ring of Fire - Remaining ammo increases the duration of the ring. When used over 90 ammo, it also increases the power of the first flame burst that creates the ring, adding damage and burning stacks to it.
      • Conjure Frost Bow - Deep Freeze - Remaining ammo makes the attack piercing, adding up to 5 targets. When used while over 90 ammo, it also becomes unblockable.
      • Conjure Lighting Hammer - Invoke Lightning - Remaining ammo makes the attack hit more times. When used over 90 ammo, every 5th hit is a guaranteed critical.
      • Conjure Fiery Greatsword - Firestorm. Remaining ammo increases the area of the effect and is duration. When used over 90 ammo, it also deals 1s burning each pulse.

    When the ammo runs out, the conjure skill goes on recharge for 30s instead the current 60s, but if the recharge was because of using skill 5, it would be greater.

    The Conjurer trait would then be changed to work with the new design. For example, it could be a combination of some of these properties:

    • Reduce the channeling time of Conjure skills from over 2s to just 1.5s.
    • Conjured weapons get +40 charges.
    • The bonus effect when used over 90 ammo mentioned before only happen when traited with Conjurer.
    • Using the 5th skill only consumes half of the maximum number of charges, not all of them.
    • Equipping a conjured weapon gives flame aura, but you lose 5 charges every time this happens.

      • Conjurer gets moved to the Arcane specialization, switching places with Renewing Stamina, and instead always giving flame aura, the aura it creates changes based on attunement or the conjured weapon.
    • Conjure skills now produce a second weapon again for allies to use with a timer instead ammo and disappearing after being dropped, like the old version of conjures.

  • Skotlex.7580Skotlex.7580 Member ✭✭✭

    Conjures used to have charges, so I doubt ANet will want to revert that change. :P

    Personally, I do love and use conjures, the main issue I have with them is that the ground item lasts 30 seconds, the exact same time your first one lasts. This causes the issue that you must time the pickup of the second one, or both will be gone and you won't have access to that same conjure for the remaining 30 seconds. On the other hand, if you time the pickup right, you'll get near 100% uptime of the conjure. I wish this could be improved (I'd make the ground item last at least 40 seconds, if not up to 60).

    my second issue is that other players may not know how to use them, and I am terribly annoyed at the prospect that somebody will accidentally pick up my fiery great sword, use a few skills and then drop it, wasting its power.

    Conjures are actually strong enough, they may not compete with the weapon skills in a fire attunment, but they are definitely better than all other elements (at least fiery axe and lightning hammer are), so they are handy even if just to keep your DPS up when the elementalist isn't channelling fire.

    There have been many improvements suggested to conjures over the years, personally I would also make it an ammo system, and have a cast drop the weapon in the field if, and only if, you already have a conjure, otherwise have it spawn in your hand.

    Another great suggestion I heard before is to have the utility use a flip over skill so you can summon your conjure from afar (like Thor), this would take the least work, and I'd take it over nothing.

    oh, and the earth shield is a huge survival boost at the expense of DPS. I've found it to be a life saver when facing swarms of enemies. Now, if only conjuring the earth shield were a stun break, the conjure set would be quite solid in my opinion.

  • MoriMoriMori.5349MoriMoriMori.5349 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 9, 2019

    @Skotlex.7580 said:
    oh, and the earth shield is a huge survival boost at the expense of DPS. I've found it to be a life saver when facing swarms of enemies. Now, if only conjuring the earth shield were a stun break, the conjure set would be quite solid in my opinion.

    Still, it's the problem you need to dedicate a separate slot on your already crammed utility skills panel for a skill which only useful at rare times. I really think for those weapons to become more attractive option they must work as a glyph (take a single skill slot, and change its type while you switch attunements) - this way you would have access to all 4 by contributing only one utility slot, what gives you a lot of versatility (and ele is all about versatility). Ideally, if you conjure a weapon for one attunement, though it will put the skill on cooldown for this one, it should have only 1/2 normal cooldown for the rest of the attunements; so, if you conjure, say, the Bow, you'll have 60 sec cooldown on it, but only 30 secs for other weapons, despite the skill slot is still the same and take one slot. That would allow more flexibility and adaptability as well.

    Then, specifically for the Shield, I would do 2 more changes:

    • the Block skill on 2 - must become easily cancelable (currently you can only cancel it by hitting ESC button, and you can't even reassign it); I would personally prefer for it to be cancelled by hitting RMB in action camear mode, but that's debatable; when canceled before it's spent a 2-3 seconds of its channeling time, it also should get reduced cooldown too; this change would allow you to engage and disengage blocking state more dynamically, reacting to changing situation
    • the Block skill must also allow you to use at least some of your utility skills without interrupting it; so, for example, you could engage block, and then use healing skill, or an offensive Signet - while still benefiting from the block state
  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 9, 2019

    @MoriMoriMori.5349 said:
    ... and change its type while you switch attunements

    Interesting thought.

    To build on this, what about a new elite class "Conjurer" and make F1-F4 conjured weapons dependent upon which element you are currently channeling?
    EDIT: Then have an elite trait line to support conjured weapons?

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • Zhaid Zhem.6508Zhaid Zhem.6508 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 9, 2019

    The shield is really good, except : the cast times to manifest it and of the skills make it clumsy to use if you need the block or the "leap/daze" + very low dmg + this little dash in the AA chain AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH :s :s :s :s :s :s , I know some will like this skill to stick the enemy, but I don't + the cast time of #4, the range and the number of targets, it's pity (make it one target 1000 range or 5 foes or faster )
    All Conjured weapons have the same issue : Good skills a priori but very low dmg, low range, no good combo, and awful cast times, all together. That why in pve we only use the aoe "storm" only.

  • Skotlex.7580Skotlex.7580 Member ✭✭✭

    @MoriMoriMori.5349 said:

    @Skotlex.7580 said:
    oh, and the earth shield is a huge survival boost at the expense of DPS. I've found it to be a life saver when facing swarms of enemies. Now, if only conjuring the earth shield were a stun break, the conjure set would be quite solid in my opinion.

    Still, it's the problem you need to dedicate a separate slot on your already crammed utility skills panel for a skill which only useful at rare times. I really think for those weapons to become more attractive option they must work as a glyph (take a single skill slot, and change its type while you switch attunements) - this way you would have access to all 4 by contributing only one utility slot, what gives you a lot of versatility (and ele is all about versatility).

    And that's never happening because conjures are an utility line, like signets or glyphs. If they don't provide enough utility to have them in your bar for some situations, then that just reflects how badly they need improvements.

    To combine them all into a single utility slot would just mean overpowering them, and... ANet would likely need to nerf them if that came to be. D:

    There's some clunkiness in their design, no doubt, so we'll see what ANet decides to do.

    Hopefully the systems team will make the most underused utilities in most professions more useful (though I think stuff like engineer turrets need this sort of help much more than elementalist conjures).

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭

    There needs to be buffs to lava axe and it is annoying that dropping a conjure makes it gone completely.

  • MoriMoriMori.5349MoriMoriMori.5349 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 10, 2019

    @Skotlex.7580 said:
    And that's never happening because conjures are an utility line, like signets or glyphs. If they don't provide enough utility to have them in your bar for some situations, then that just reflects how badly they need improvements.

    The first part is easily changeable, you know. They could just make an exception for them, or put additional skill granting access to them to glyph line, no big problem here. So, for example, one more glyph could be added which would basically provide you access to all 4 conjures, if you've already have learned those (without removing the Conjure line completely). Yes, it's a bit clumsy, but that would work ok.

    The 2nd part - that's exactly as the Ele is designed as a class (at least, it was the intention) - each attunement is not enough, you must use all of them. Why suddenly you see a problem if the same design is applied to conjures? It's exactly how it should be, to match the rest of Ele design - a set of weapons each of which is only useful at rare specific times, but as you have easy access to all of them at any time, the whole set taking one slot becomes useful quite often.

    @Skotlex.7580 said:
    To combine them all into a single utility slot would just mean overpowering them, and... ANet would likely need to nerf them if that came to be. D:

    How exactly? Currently, if you want to use conjures (except FGS, which is imo the only skill worth to be in elite slot, so it's always present), you just select the most powerful of them (I believe for most people it's the Hammer, though I'm still playing with the Bow). How having 3 of the rest, less powerful weapons will make it that OP suddenly? Like, they are less powerful than what you've had before the change, and you can't hold more than one at atime :) The only thing it gets you is versatility.

  • Skotlex.7580Skotlex.7580 Member ✭✭✭

    @MoriMoriMori.5349 said:

    @Skotlex.7580 said:
    And that's never happening because conjures are an utility line, like signets or glyphs. If they don't provide enough utility to have them in your bar for some situations, then that just reflects how badly they need improvements.

    The first part is easily changeable, you know. They could just make an exception for them, or put additional skill granting access to them to glyph line, no big problem here. So, for example, one more glyph could be added which would basically provide you access to all 4 conjures, if you've already have learned those (without removing the Conjure line completely). Yes, it's a bit clumsy, but that would work ok.

    The 2nd part - that's exactly as the Ele is designed as a class (at least, it was the intention) - each attunement is not enough, you must use all of them. Why suddenly you see a problem if the same design is applied to conjures? It's exactly how it should be, to match the rest of Ele design - a set of weapons each of which is only useful at rare specific times, but as you have easy access to all of them at any time, the whole set taking one slot becomes useful quite often.

    @Skotlex.7580 said:
    To combine them all into a single utility slot would just mean overpowering them, and... ANet would likely need to nerf them if that came to be. D:

    How exactly? Currently, if you want to use conjures (except FGS, which is imo the only skill worth to be in elite slot, so it's always present), you just select the most powerful of them (I believe for most people it's the Hammer, though I'm still playing with the Bow). How having 3 of the rest, less powerful weapons will make it that OP suddenly? Like, they are less powerful than what you've had before the change, and you can't hold more than one at atime :) The only thing it gets you is versatility.

    I think it depends on how it gets implemented. If they all shared the same cooldowns, then I guess it could be okay. If each element had its cooldown, then you could do some mad break bar damage (earth 3+4, ice 5, air 3) or a crazy burst from just swapping between conjures and using all skills, which would lead to toning them down to an engineer toolkit.

    Anyway, there are still two problems with this approach:
    1. you would need to develop three elite conjures.
    2. It still doesn't fit in the utility design they have used for everything else.

    So.... a suggestion like this is just not gonna happen. :/

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:
    All Conjured weapons have the same issue : Good skills a priori but very low dmg, low range, no good combo, and awful cast times, all together.

    I think that this is by design to prevent utility skills from overshadowing weapon skills. Just my take on it.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Personally while I like being able to give someone a lightning hammer to make an awkward jump I think I'd rather keep my conjured weapons and have them on a 30s CD.

    I'd also like for them to get a proper purpose,

    Frostbow has no clue what it's doing, it has insane damage on some skills but is a heal on auto and then a stupidly strong CC on the 5 skill. I'd like to see it be pure support.
    Flame Axe is OK for ranged damage but a lot of the skills could do with a slight damage buff, flame leap is eviscerate if it was made of candy floss and a lower coefficient than some auto chains.
    Lightning Hammer is actually OK for melee damage.
    Earth Shield is also OK in many regards, it does what it says on the tin but for some reason has some respectable damage mods.
    FGS which actually does decent damage...I just wish I could use it more than every 3 minutes. Half the cool down but I can't give to allies would be a nice trade off.

    I like the idea of ammo mechanic for the actual conjure ability to get the weapon, I don't like the idea of ammo for the conjure weapon skills. We had that, it was bad.

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