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Mesmer Pistol - 1200 Range?

Let's look at other classes and their pistols. Thief pistols are 900 range. Engineer pistols are 600-900 range. Most of those skills are more effective at close range. Now, with that set down, why is mesmer pistol 1200 range? The only weapons that can be comboed with it are axe, sword, and scepter, and scepter is 900 range. Would it not make sense to reduce the range of mesmer pistol to match scepter? Furthermore, mesmer pistol was balanced in the past, but as its received buffs along the lines of guaranteed bleeding, stun duration increases, etc., it's become a stronger and more oppressive weapon. I believe that mesmer pistol could be reduced to 900 range to: be more consistent with other pistol skills in the game, match scepter range better, and become less oppressive at high ranges especially as it has become stronger and stronger over time. 900 range is still very functionally worthwhile for a stun and a barraging pistol phantasm, and would feel much better to have the scepter/pistol kit balanced by a more mid range style instead of having openers from 1200 range. What do y'all think of reducing the range of mesmer pistol? Does it truly seem balanced to have a kit with such high firepower at full power ranged weapon range, or should it be constrained to a shorter range to put a little more positioning and constraint to it?

Comments

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @FalsePromises.6398 said:
    Let's look at other classes and their pistols. Thief pistols are 900 range. Engineer pistols are 600-900 range. Most of those skills are more effective at close range. Now, with that set down, why is mesmer pistol 1200 range? The only weapons that can be comboed with it are axe, sword, and scepter, and scepter is 900 range. Would it not make sense to reduce the range of mesmer pistol to match scepter? Furthermore, mesmer pistol was balanced in the past, but as its received buffs along the lines of guaranteed bleeding, stun duration increases, etc., it's become a stronger and more oppressive weapon. I believe that mesmer pistol could be reduced to 900 range to: be more consistent with other pistol skills in the game, match scepter range better, and become less oppressive at high ranges especially as it has become stronger and stronger over time. 900 range is still very functionally worthwhile for a stun and a barraging pistol phantasm, and would feel much better to have the scepter/pistol kit balanced by a more mid range style instead of having openers from 1200 range. What do y'all think of reducing the range of mesmer pistol? Does it truly seem balanced to have a kit with such high firepower at full power ranged weapon range, or should it be constrained to a shorter range to put a little more positioning and constraint to it?

    I like how you created account simply to post it :D
    Im not sure if you are trolling or not so im just leave the comment here so I get notifications, have good day!

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @phokus.8934 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    I like how you created account simply to post it :D
    Im not sure if you are trolling or not so im just leave the comment here so I get notifications, have good day!

    Let's hope he doesn't figure out Mesmer greatsword being 1200 units.

    oh yes, and that shatters actually have 1200 range!

  • @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @FalsePromises.6398 said:
    Let's look at other classes and their pistols. Thief pistols are 900 range. Engineer pistols are 600-900 range. Most of those skills are more effective at close range. Now, with that set down, why is mesmer pistol 1200 range? The only weapons that can be comboed with it are axe, sword, and scepter, and scepter is 900 range. Would it not make sense to reduce the range of mesmer pistol to match scepter? Furthermore, mesmer pistol was balanced in the past, but as its received buffs along the lines of guaranteed bleeding, stun duration increases, etc., it's become a stronger and more oppressive weapon. I believe that mesmer pistol could be reduced to 900 range to: be more consistent with other pistol skills in the game, match scepter range better, and become less oppressive at high ranges especially as it has become stronger and stronger over time. 900 range is still very functionally worthwhile for a stun and a barraging pistol phantasm, and would feel much better to have the scepter/pistol kit balanced by a more mid range style instead of having openers from 1200 range. What do y'all think of reducing the range of mesmer pistol? Does it truly seem balanced to have a kit with such high firepower at full power ranged weapon range, or should it be constrained to a shorter range to put a little more positioning and constraint to it?

    I like how you created account simply to post it :D
    Im not sure if you are trolling or not so im just leave the comment here so I get notifications, have good day!

    I just talk a lot, and people would tell me to take my ideas to forums, so I made an account to post on forums. I've actually been playing the game for near 7 years by now. I don't see how a legitimate concern against pistol would be trolling: pistol seems to be overperforming as of late, given it outshines torch in PvP nowadays for meta. If it really seems like such an absurd idea though, would you care to elaborate?

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @FalsePromises.6398 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @FalsePromises.6398 said:
    Let's look at other classes and their pistols. Thief pistols are 900 range. Engineer pistols are 600-900 range. Most of those skills are more effective at close range. Now, with that set down, why is mesmer pistol 1200 range? The only weapons that can be comboed with it are axe, sword, and scepter, and scepter is 900 range. Would it not make sense to reduce the range of mesmer pistol to match scepter? Furthermore, mesmer pistol was balanced in the past, but as its received buffs along the lines of guaranteed bleeding, stun duration increases, etc., it's become a stronger and more oppressive weapon. I believe that mesmer pistol could be reduced to 900 range to: be more consistent with other pistol skills in the game, match scepter range better, and become less oppressive at high ranges especially as it has become stronger and stronger over time. 900 range is still very functionally worthwhile for a stun and a barraging pistol phantasm, and would feel much better to have the scepter/pistol kit balanced by a more mid range style instead of having openers from 1200 range. What do y'all think of reducing the range of mesmer pistol? Does it truly seem balanced to have a kit with such high firepower at full power ranged weapon range, or should it be constrained to a shorter range to put a little more positioning and constraint to it?

    I like how you created account simply to post it :D
    Im not sure if you are trolling or not so im just leave the comment here so I get notifications, have good day!

    I just talk a lot, and people would tell me to take my ideas to forums, so I made an account to post on forums. I've actually been playing the game for near 7 years by now. I don't see how a legitimate concern against pistol would be trolling: pistol seems to be overperforming as of late, given it outshines torch in PvP nowadays for meta. If it really seems like such an absurd idea though, would you care to elaborate?

    Torch is kitten.
    Pistol is not kitten ( while traited )
    So pistol is used instead of a torch.
    You are of the people that are give garbage choice, and ok choice. You look at the both and say The ok Choice is better then the garbage one so it should be brought down it its kitten level.
    Instead of nerfing pistol post buff torch to make it on par with pistol.

  • Xaylin.1860Xaylin.1860 Member ✭✭✭

    @phokus.8934 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    I like how you created account simply to post it :D
    Im not sure if you are trolling or not so im just leave the comment here so I get notifications, have good day!

    Let's hope he doesn't figure out Mesmer greatsword being 1200 units.

    Illusionary Wave should have 1200 range to match up with the other skills. :p

  • Bigpapasmurf.5623Bigpapasmurf.5623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Mesmer is a magic wielding class...Thief and Engi are not. Thus magic is used to enchant the distance/ammo

    Believe the Magic!

    Red = Dead...or someone runs away. Either way it's gone.
    twitch.tv/TRMC
    Lover of Jumping puzzles, Squirrels, WvW, and Taimi
    CLOK Commander and all around nice bro

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:
    Mesmer is a magic wielding class...Thief and Engi are not. Thus magic is used to enchant the distance/ammo

    Believe the Magic!

    Its called MAGIC BULLET for a reason ;p

  • @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @FalsePromises.6398 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @FalsePromises.6398 said:
    Let's look at other classes and their pistols. Thief pistols are 900 range. Engineer pistols are 600-900 range. Most of those skills are more effective at close range. Now, with that set down, why is mesmer pistol 1200 range? The only weapons that can be comboed with it are axe, sword, and scepter, and scepter is 900 range. Would it not make sense to reduce the range of mesmer pistol to match scepter? Furthermore, mesmer pistol was balanced in the past, but as its received buffs along the lines of guaranteed bleeding, stun duration increases, etc., it's become a stronger and more oppressive weapon. I believe that mesmer pistol could be reduced to 900 range to: be more consistent with other pistol skills in the game, match scepter range better, and become less oppressive at high ranges especially as it has become stronger and stronger over time. 900 range is still very functionally worthwhile for a stun and a barraging pistol phantasm, and would feel much better to have the scepter/pistol kit balanced by a more mid range style instead of having openers from 1200 range. What do y'all think of reducing the range of mesmer pistol? Does it truly seem balanced to have a kit with such high firepower at full power ranged weapon range, or should it be constrained to a shorter range to put a little more positioning and constraint to it?

    I like how you created account simply to post it :D
    Im not sure if you are trolling or not so im just leave the comment here so I get notifications, have good day!

    I just talk a lot, and people would tell me to take my ideas to forums, so I made an account to post on forums. I've actually been playing the game for near 7 years by now. I don't see how a legitimate concern against pistol would be trolling: pistol seems to be overperforming as of late, given it outshines torch in PvP nowadays for meta. If it really seems like such an absurd idea though, would you care to elaborate?

    Torch is kitten.
    Pistol is not kitten ( while traited )
    So pistol is used instead of a torch.
    You are of the people that are give garbage choice, and ok choice. You look at the both and say The ok Choice is better then the garbage one so it should be brought down it its kitten level.
    Instead of nerfing pistol post buff torch to make it on par with pistol.

    My suggested change doesn't nerf pistol damage in any way, just makes it less of a high range weapon. I didn't say remove bleeding stacks or remove the power aspects of pistol. I'm not saying gut it. I didn't even say nerf the stun duration, which in honesty feels absurd, but that's not my point in this post. I'm saying tone down the range so that it isn't a condi lovechild of ranger longbow AND shortbow on a mesmer offhander. Torch probably does need a buff, it's fallen out of style as a whole, but pistol's range is unnecessarily long.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @FalsePromises.6398 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @FalsePromises.6398 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @FalsePromises.6398 said:
    Let's look at other classes and their pistols. Thief pistols are 900 range. Engineer pistols are 600-900 range. Most of those skills are more effective at close range. Now, with that set down, why is mesmer pistol 1200 range? The only weapons that can be comboed with it are axe, sword, and scepter, and scepter is 900 range. Would it not make sense to reduce the range of mesmer pistol to match scepter? Furthermore, mesmer pistol was balanced in the past, but as its received buffs along the lines of guaranteed bleeding, stun duration increases, etc., it's become a stronger and more oppressive weapon. I believe that mesmer pistol could be reduced to 900 range to: be more consistent with other pistol skills in the game, match scepter range better, and become less oppressive at high ranges especially as it has become stronger and stronger over time. 900 range is still very functionally worthwhile for a stun and a barraging pistol phantasm, and would feel much better to have the scepter/pistol kit balanced by a more mid range style instead of having openers from 1200 range. What do y'all think of reducing the range of mesmer pistol? Does it truly seem balanced to have a kit with such high firepower at full power ranged weapon range, or should it be constrained to a shorter range to put a little more positioning and constraint to it?

    I like how you created account simply to post it :D
    Im not sure if you are trolling or not so im just leave the comment here so I get notifications, have good day!

    I just talk a lot, and people would tell me to take my ideas to forums, so I made an account to post on forums. I've actually been playing the game for near 7 years by now. I don't see how a legitimate concern against pistol would be trolling: pistol seems to be overperforming as of late, given it outshines torch in PvP nowadays for meta. If it really seems like such an absurd idea though, would you care to elaborate?

    Torch is kitten.
    Pistol is not kitten ( while traited )
    So pistol is used instead of a torch.
    You are of the people that are give garbage choice, and ok choice. You look at the both and say The ok Choice is better then the garbage one so it should be brought down it its kitten level.
    Instead of nerfing pistol post buff torch to make it on par with pistol.

    My suggested change doesn't nerf pistol damage in any way, just makes it less of a high range weapon. I didn't say remove bleeding stacks or remove the power aspects of pistol. I'm not saying gut it. I didn't even say nerf the stun duration, which in honesty feels absurd, but that's not my point in this post. I'm saying tone down the range so that it isn't a condi lovechild of ranger longbow AND shortbow on a mesmer offhander. Torch probably does need a buff, it's fallen out of style as a whole, but pistol's range is unnecessarily long.

    Torch didnt "fallen out of style"
    it applies burning and thats it, on both 2x 30s cooldowns. phantasm always misses, meaning its 3s stealth weapon and thats it.
    If you played ANY ammount of condi mes you would know that nerfing pistols range to 900 would gut its damage, people would walk out of the channel to avoid bleeding.
    It would also remove ANY chase potential the build has. its already REALLY kitten bad at it and you wanna make it even worse.
    If you dont know what you are talking about dont talk.

  • According to Metabattle, Engi have 7 meta builds, Thiefs 6 meta builds and mesmer ??......just 2 meta builds (core shatter basiclly the same as power shatter just adding mirage) and ppl still cry about mesmer.......

    I think people will continue to whine about Mesmer till he lose condi's and all his clones forever.

    Troll since 1988.

  • Sounds like this guy got tired of not countering a mesmer's daze and followup pew-pew combo.

  • @Don Vega Van Kain.9842 said:
    According to Metabattle, Engi have 7 meta builds, Thiefs 6 meta builds and mesmer ??......just 2 meta builds (core shatter basiclly the same as power shatter just adding mirage) and ppl still cry about mesmer.......

    I think people will continue to whine about Mesmer till he lose condi's and all his clones forever.

    People complain about condi mirage because mirage relies too much on overvamped quality of life (QoL) aspects and UI clutter the higher skill you get. Mirage can UI clutter with deceptive evasion and standing still, preventing proper targeting of them because their clone overlaps their model and takes target instead, punishing builds that rely on targeting to attack. Furthermore, the concept of target breaking again punishes people and forces them to click target again before casting anything. Mirage cloak being usable during stun/immob/fear makes mirage impossible to stunchain at any point if they have one evade, don't even need to use a stunbreak to do so. Scepter ambush is too long of a cast and hits too many times, resulting in near abusive levels of bleeding from a single ambush cast that is near impossible to completely dodge because the cast is... twice as long as a dodge roll, 5 attacks per clone, bleeding on every critical hit on top of its other effects that more often just become cover conditions that get cleansed instead of the bleeding. Furthermore, the ambush attacks of clones become counterplay to environmental cover and making range because clones use the superspeed of using mirage cloak to run around corners, behind walls, to charge gaps, etc., and STILL have enough time left on that ambush window to cast their ambush at no cost to its damage, resulting often in staggered ambushes akin to staggered shatters. Then, a reflect added on to the end of the dodge roll or other evade if you evade a single attack? And then an AoE daze when you cast heal? Free cleanses when you get stunned, not even when you do anything yourself? Chaos storm granting aegis on top of their other evades, blocks, and invulnerabilities? And these clones that now got buffed with evade frames used most often when the enemy winds up big attacks or big AoE's (just because the caster will likely want to dodge) end up tripling the durability of these clones and they still retain the vitality of normal clones? Mirage is hated for good reason, if you ask me. The problem just becomes Anet often doesn't seem to fully have a feel for why, so they attack some of the bigger, more vital offenses without addressing the QoL and defensive aspects that make the class obnoxious to fight and specifically punishing towards builds that don't have high mobilty and cleave akin to heavies. It's not about being able to find the mirage nowadays, it's more often about getting to click on them without having target broken, stealth, etc., giving them windows where they can punish you while you're just trying to crawl through the UI clutter. That's why mirage is worth complaining about.

    tl;dr mirage has too many quality of life and defensive aspects arenanet hasn't touched properly that end up making the class a pain in the kitten to fight which result in people complaining and arenanet attacking the skill effects instead of mechanics

  • @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @FalsePromises.6398 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @FalsePromises.6398 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @FalsePromises.6398 said:
    Let's look at other classes and their pistols. Thief pistols are 900 range. Engineer pistols are 600-900 range. Most of those skills are more effective at close range. Now, with that set down, why is mesmer pistol 1200 range? The only weapons that can be comboed with it are axe, sword, and scepter, and scepter is 900 range. Would it not make sense to reduce the range of mesmer pistol to match scepter? Furthermore, mesmer pistol was balanced in the past, but as its received buffs along the lines of guaranteed bleeding, stun duration increases, etc., it's become a stronger and more oppressive weapon. I believe that mesmer pistol could be reduced to 900 range to: be more consistent with other pistol skills in the game, match scepter range better, and become less oppressive at high ranges especially as it has become stronger and stronger over time. 900 range is still very functionally worthwhile for a stun and a barraging pistol phantasm, and would feel much better to have the scepter/pistol kit balanced by a more mid range style instead of having openers from 1200 range. What do y'all think of reducing the range of mesmer pistol? Does it truly seem balanced to have a kit with such high firepower at full power ranged weapon range, or should it be constrained to a shorter range to put a little more positioning and constraint to it?

    I like how you created account simply to post it :D
    Im not sure if you are trolling or not so im just leave the comment here so I get notifications, have good day!

    I just talk a lot, and people would tell me to take my ideas to forums, so I made an account to post on forums. I've actually been playing the game for near 7 years by now. I don't see how a legitimate concern against pistol would be trolling: pistol seems to be overperforming as of late, given it outshines torch in PvP nowadays for meta. If it really seems like such an absurd idea though, would you care to elaborate?

    Torch is kitten.
    Pistol is not kitten ( while traited )
    So pistol is used instead of a torch.
    You are of the people that are give garbage choice, and ok choice. You look at the both and say The ok Choice is better then the garbage one so it should be brought down it its kitten level.
    Instead of nerfing pistol post buff torch to make it on par with pistol.

    My suggested change doesn't nerf pistol damage in any way, just makes it less of a high range weapon. I didn't say remove bleeding stacks or remove the power aspects of pistol. I'm not saying gut it. I didn't even say nerf the stun duration, which in honesty feels absurd, but that's not my point in this post. I'm saying tone down the range so that it isn't a condi lovechild of ranger longbow AND shortbow on a mesmer offhander. Torch probably does need a buff, it's fallen out of style as a whole, but pistol's range is unnecessarily long.

    Torch didnt "fallen out of style"
    it applies burning and thats it, on both 2x 30s cooldowns. phantasm always misses, meaning its 3s stealth weapon and thats it.
    If you played ANY ammount of condi mes you would know that nerfing pistols range to 900 would gut its damage, people would walk out of the channel to avoid bleeding.
    It would also remove ANY chase potential the build has. its already REALLY kitten bad at it and you wanna make it even worse.
    If you dont know what you are talking about dont talk.

    Issue I have with that take on it is that you're complaining about chase capability where other classes have similar drawbacks. Sagebrands don't have strong chase. Fire weavers don't have strong chase either. Neither do necromancers in general, condition or power based. Those classes are resultantly countered by kiting. If pistol got range reduced, it'd just affect the entry/chase, it wouldn't even put a drawback that would make them kiteable so as to be killable in doing so. If arenanet wanted strong chase on mirage, clones would be able to use ambushes while running, and would constantly follow players while casting abilities, which would probably end up being broken. That's not the case. Clones stand still, and only move when necessary. Ambushes make clones stand still while casting. Mirage is relatively stationary in terms of design. Anyway, worried about people "running out of channel to avoid damage"? Tell that to holoforge pistol barrage. Tell that to literally any pistol barrage ability when classes that use pistols face high mobility builds. It wouldn't be a unique drawback.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @FalsePromises.6398 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @FalsePromises.6398 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @FalsePromises.6398 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @FalsePromises.6398 said:
    Let's look at other classes and their pistols. Thief pistols are 900 range. Engineer pistols are 600-900 range. Most of those skills are more effective at close range. Now, with that set down, why is mesmer pistol 1200 range? The only weapons that can be comboed with it are axe, sword, and scepter, and scepter is 900 range. Would it not make sense to reduce the range of mesmer pistol to match scepter? Furthermore, mesmer pistol was balanced in the past, but as its received buffs along the lines of guaranteed bleeding, stun duration increases, etc., it's become a stronger and more oppressive weapon. I believe that mesmer pistol could be reduced to 900 range to: be more consistent with other pistol skills in the game, match scepter range better, and become less oppressive at high ranges especially as it has become stronger and stronger over time. 900 range is still very functionally worthwhile for a stun and a barraging pistol phantasm, and would feel much better to have the scepter/pistol kit balanced by a more mid range style instead of having openers from 1200 range. What do y'all think of reducing the range of mesmer pistol? Does it truly seem balanced to have a kit with such high firepower at full power ranged weapon range, or should it be constrained to a shorter range to put a little more positioning and constraint to it?

    I like how you created account simply to post it :D
    Im not sure if you are trolling or not so im just leave the comment here so I get notifications, have good day!

    I just talk a lot, and people would tell me to take my ideas to forums, so I made an account to post on forums. I've actually been playing the game for near 7 years by now. I don't see how a legitimate concern against pistol would be trolling: pistol seems to be overperforming as of late, given it outshines torch in PvP nowadays for meta. If it really seems like such an absurd idea though, would you care to elaborate?

    Torch is kitten.
    Pistol is not kitten ( while traited )
    So pistol is used instead of a torch.
    You are of the people that are give garbage choice, and ok choice. You look at the both and say The ok Choice is better then the garbage one so it should be brought down it its kitten level.
    Instead of nerfing pistol post buff torch to make it on par with pistol.

    My suggested change doesn't nerf pistol damage in any way, just makes it less of a high range weapon. I didn't say remove bleeding stacks or remove the power aspects of pistol. I'm not saying gut it. I didn't even say nerf the stun duration, which in honesty feels absurd, but that's not my point in this post. I'm saying tone down the range so that it isn't a condi lovechild of ranger longbow AND shortbow on a mesmer offhander. Torch probably does need a buff, it's fallen out of style as a whole, but pistol's range is unnecessarily long.

    Torch didnt "fallen out of style"
    it applies burning and thats it, on both 2x 30s cooldowns. phantasm always misses, meaning its 3s stealth weapon and thats it.
    If you played ANY ammount of condi mes you would know that nerfing pistols range to 900 would gut its damage, people would walk out of the channel to avoid bleeding.
    It would also remove ANY chase potential the build has. its already REALLY kitten bad at it and you wanna make it even worse.
    If you dont know what you are talking about dont talk.

    Issue I have with that take on it is that you're complaining about chase capability where other classes have similar drawbacks. Sagebrands don't have strong chase. Fire weavers don't have strong chase either. Neither do necromancers in general, condition or power based. Those classes are resultantly countered by kiting. If pistol got range reduced, it'd just affect the entry/chase, it wouldn't even put a drawback that would make them kiteable so as to be killable in doing so. If arenanet wanted strong chase on mirage, clones would be able to use ambushes while running, and would constantly follow players while casting abilities, which would probably end up being broken. That's not the case. Clones stand still, and only move when necessary. Ambushes make clones stand still while casting. Mirage is relatively stationary in terms of design. Anyway, worried about people "running out of channel to avoid damage"? Tell that to holoforge pistol barrage. Tell that to literally any pistol barrage ability when classes that use pistols face high mobility builds. It wouldn't be a unique drawback.

    Rapid fire is power damage that can be used while moving.
    Same with holo, you eat it, you take damage. Its not condi that gets removed for free 80% of the time.
    Condi mirage is garbage as It is, I thought the nerfs to staff wouldnt mean much but i was 100% wrong. Daredavil can facetank on node indifinitely without landing anything.
    50% of the matchups are auto lose, impossible to win.
    other 50% are with slight advantage, and take time to wrench the victory, warrior, easy matchup. takes 1minute + to win. if you make mistakes you die, if warrior makes mistakes he runs and comes back.
    It logically doesnt make sense to nerf a kitten build.
    You dont understand how much 1200-900 range would affect, I wish I could set ignore to people like you.
    You have not even smallest clue how phantasms work.
    Do everyone a favour and stop posting nonsense you have not even basic ideas about, thank you very much.

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Or at last play with mechanic they think broken to prove (reach a certain position on ladder for example.) they at last know how to use them and not just pop here after random die to a mesmer.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 24, 2020

    @FalsePromises.6398 said:
    Sagebrands don't have strong chase. Fire weavers don't have strong chase either.

    and both of those builds are probably among the most overpowered stuff you can play currently. Imagine if they had strong chase on top of what they have now...

    Meanwhile Mirage/Mesmer was gutted far enough that even the loud whining on the pvp forum has died down in favor of other classes (not saying Mirage is underpowered).

  • @FalsePromises.6398 said:

    @Don Vega Van Kain.9842 said:
    According to Metabattle, Engi have 7 meta builds, Thiefs 6 meta builds and mesmer ??......just 2 meta builds (core shatter basiclly the same as power shatter just adding mirage) and ppl still cry about mesmer.......

    I think people will continue to whine about Mesmer till he lose condi's and all his clones forever.

    People complain about condi mirage because mirage relies too much on overvamped quality of life (QoL) aspects and UI clutter the higher skill you get. Mirage can UI clutter with deceptive evasion and standing still, preventing proper targeting of them because their clone overlaps their model and takes target instead, punishing builds that rely on targeting to attack. Furthermore, the concept of target breaking again punishes people and forces them to click target again before casting anything. Mirage cloak being usable during stun/immob/fear makes mirage impossible to stunchain at any point if they have one evade, don't even need to use a stunbreak to do so. Scepter ambush is too long of a cast and hits too many times, resulting in near abusive levels of bleeding from a single ambush cast that is near impossible to completely dodge because the cast is... twice as long as a dodge roll, 5 attacks per clone, bleeding on every critical hit on top of its other effects that more often just become cover conditions that get cleansed instead of the bleeding. Furthermore, the ambush attacks of clones become counterplay to environmental cover and making range because clones use the superspeed of using mirage cloak to run around corners, behind walls, to charge gaps, etc., and STILL have enough time left on that ambush window to cast their ambush at no cost to its damage, resulting often in staggered ambushes akin to staggered shatters. Then, a reflect added on to the end of the dodge roll or other evade if you evade a single attack? And then an AoE daze when you cast heal? Free cleanses when you get stunned, not even when you do anything yourself? Chaos storm granting aegis on top of their other evades, blocks, and invulnerabilities? And these clones that now got buffed with evade frames used most often when the enemy winds up big attacks or big AoE's (just because the caster will likely want to dodge) end up tripling the durability of these clones and they still retain the vitality of normal clones? Mirage is hated for good reason, if you ask me. The problem just becomes Anet often doesn't seem to fully have a feel for why, so they attack some of the bigger, more vital offenses without addressing the QoL and defensive aspects that make the class obnoxious to fight and specifically punishing towards builds that don't have high mobilty and cleave akin to heavies. It's not about being able to find the mirage nowadays, it's more often about getting to click on them without having target broken, stealth, etc., giving them windows where they can punish you while you're just trying to crawl through the UI clutter. That's why mirage is worth complaining about.

    tl;dr mirage has too many quality of life and defensive aspects arenanet hasn't touched properly that end up making the class a pain in the kitten to fight which result in people complaining and arenanet attacking the skill effects instead of mechanics

    Hi :)

    All the wall you wrote can be resume in what i say "I think people will continue to whine about Mesmer till he lose condi's and all his clones forever."

    You just talk about clones and re-targeting + the amount of condi and I understand your pov but the solution is not to nerf (again) mesmer they already get gut really hard.

    You slightly touch the solution when you've been talking about mechanics but if we touch mechs (nerf/change), we have to buff something else to counter balance.

    And i can assure you, my lord, that mesmer have many counter professions which can delete him (thief, ranger, condi fb, fire weaver, scrapper) and once a spec has many counters, i think there's no problem, it's just ppl don't try to adapt theirs self and play always the same thing and want to kill (and survive) to everything with same profession/build. :/

    Troll since 1988.

  • @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @FalsePromises.6398 said:
    Sagebrands don't have strong chase. Fire weavers don't have strong chase either.

    and both of those builds are probably among the most overpowered stuff you can play currently. Imagine if they had strong chase on top of what they have now...

    Meanwhile Mirage/Mesmer was gutted far enough that even the loud whining on the pvp forum has died down in favor of other classes (not saying Mirage is underpowered).

    My argument isn't give those classes chase. It's that mesmer doesn't need long range pistol abilities under the guise of "chase" because not all classes or builds have/need "chase" to be successful.

  • @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @FalsePromises.6398 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @FalsePromises.6398 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @FalsePromises.6398 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @FalsePromises.6398 said:
    Let's look at other classes and their pistols. Thief pistols are 900 range. Engineer pistols are 600-900 range. Most of those skills are more effective at close range. Now, with that set down, why is mesmer pistol 1200 range? The only weapons that can be comboed with it are axe, sword, and scepter, and scepter is 900 range. Would it not make sense to reduce the range of mesmer pistol to match scepter? Furthermore, mesmer pistol was balanced in the past, but as its received buffs along the lines of guaranteed bleeding, stun duration increases, etc., it's become a stronger and more oppressive weapon. I believe that mesmer pistol could be reduced to 900 range to: be more consistent with other pistol skills in the game, match scepter range better, and become less oppressive at high ranges especially as it has become stronger and stronger over time. 900 range is still very functionally worthwhile for a stun and a barraging pistol phantasm, and would feel much better to have the scepter/pistol kit balanced by a more mid range style instead of having openers from 1200 range. What do y'all think of reducing the range of mesmer pistol? Does it truly seem balanced to have a kit with such high firepower at full power ranged weapon range, or should it be constrained to a shorter range to put a little more positioning and constraint to it?

    I like how you created account simply to post it :D
    Im not sure if you are trolling or not so im just leave the comment here so I get notifications, have good day!

    I just talk a lot, and people would tell me to take my ideas to forums, so I made an account to post on forums. I've actually been playing the game for near 7 years by now. I don't see how a legitimate concern against pistol would be trolling: pistol seems to be overperforming as of late, given it outshines torch in PvP nowadays for meta. If it really seems like such an absurd idea though, would you care to elaborate?

    Torch is kitten.
    Pistol is not kitten ( while traited )
    So pistol is used instead of a torch.
    You are of the people that are give garbage choice, and ok choice. You look at the both and say The ok Choice is better then the garbage one so it should be brought down it its kitten level.
    Instead of nerfing pistol post buff torch to make it on par with pistol.

    My suggested change doesn't nerf pistol damage in any way, just makes it less of a high range weapon. I didn't say remove bleeding stacks or remove the power aspects of pistol. I'm not saying gut it. I didn't even say nerf the stun duration, which in honesty feels absurd, but that's not my point in this post. I'm saying tone down the range so that it isn't a condi lovechild of ranger longbow AND shortbow on a mesmer offhander. Torch probably does need a buff, it's fallen out of style as a whole, but pistol's range is unnecessarily long.

    Torch didnt "fallen out of style"
    it applies burning and thats it, on both 2x 30s cooldowns. phantasm always misses, meaning its 3s stealth weapon and thats it.
    If you played ANY ammount of condi mes you would know that nerfing pistols range to 900 would gut its damage, people would walk out of the channel to avoid bleeding.
    It would also remove ANY chase potential the build has. its already REALLY kitten bad at it and you wanna make it even worse.
    If you dont know what you are talking about dont talk.

    Issue I have with that take on it is that you're complaining about chase capability where other classes have similar drawbacks. Sagebrands don't have strong chase. Fire weavers don't have strong chase either. Neither do necromancers in general, condition or power based. Those classes are resultantly countered by kiting. If pistol got range reduced, it'd just affect the entry/chase, it wouldn't even put a drawback that would make them kiteable so as to be killable in doing so. If arenanet wanted strong chase on mirage, clones would be able to use ambushes while running, and would constantly follow players while casting abilities, which would probably end up being broken. That's not the case. Clones stand still, and only move when necessary. Ambushes make clones stand still while casting. Mirage is relatively stationary in terms of design. Anyway, worried about people "running out of channel to avoid damage"? Tell that to holoforge pistol barrage. Tell that to literally any pistol barrage ability when classes that use pistols face high mobility builds. It wouldn't be a unique drawback.

    Rapid fire is power damage that can be used while moving.
    Same with holo, you eat it, you take damage. Its not condi that gets removed for free 80% of the time.
    Condi mirage is garbage as It is, I thought the nerfs to staff wouldnt mean much but i was 100% wrong. Daredavil can facetank on node indifinitely without landing anything.
    50% of the matchups are auto lose, impossible to win.
    other 50% are with slight advantage, and take time to wrench the victory, warrior, easy matchup. takes 1minute + to win. if you make mistakes you die, if warrior makes mistakes he runs and comes back.
    It logically doesnt make sense to nerf a kitten build.
    You dont understand how much 1200-900 range would affect, I wish I could set ignore to people like you.
    You have not even smallest clue how phantasms work.
    Do everyone a favour and stop posting nonsense you have not even basic ideas about, thank you very much.

    To begin, I never mentioned Rapid Fire because it's a longbow skill. I never mentioned ranger because they have good chase, that's part of their capabilities. Also, don't draw a line between power/conditions when comparing skill mechanics: they all have effects when they land, and have different counterplay. You can reduce power damage with traits, protection, and nullify whatever does hit with enough heals. Conditions can scale based on effect, ignore toughness and damage reductions like protection, and resultantly have cleanse counterplay. Also, is daredevil really your trump card argument? Acro daredevil, one of the most absurdly designed builds since bunker chrono? Is it really a legitimate comparison to compare one of the most defensively abusive builds in the game with mirage? How does that even translate to your point? "Look I'm not broken like he is"? Furthermore, you sound like you're reasoning your arguments in a duel vacuum, as if points and incentive to stay near a target don't exist in conquest. Conquest isn't won with long term duels, but rather with staying power. If you want to bring up warrior, the known counter to mesmer, and say "My kit is balanced because this counters me", then I will say fire weaver is balanced because necromancer can counter it. It's not congruent to claim one avenue of attack indicates balance. Anyway, the majority of mirages I meet tend to be on the more successful end of a duel. You sound like you're just basing your arguments on self experience and resultantly self pity. Condi mirages does not become a "kitten" build because it has counterplay mechanics, and it's justified to nerf oppressive mechanics in general, especially when they're not a mainstay. I've seen plenty mirages suffice in duel environments, and I don't even need to go to ranked to see that, it's literally there in the lobby arena. The mirages that get trashed are the ones who don't adapt to their enemy's kit or don't pressure enough. I know how phantasms work, and a 900 range threshold would make pistol less oppressive from long range at only the loss of long range easy to land entry combos with no real risk attached. If you can tell me why pistol should stay 1200 range aside from "chase" capabilities and the complaint of enemies running away which equates not to you being unable to pin but rather the enemy having to cede a point to you because of your sheer offensive capability, I'd be interested. Otherwise, please don't be disrespectful.

  • @Don Vega Van Kain.9842 said:

    @FalsePromises.6398 said:

    @Don Vega Van Kain.9842 said:
    According to Metabattle, Engi have 7 meta builds, Thiefs 6 meta builds and mesmer ??......just 2 meta builds (core shatter basiclly the same as power shatter just adding mirage) and ppl still cry about mesmer.......

    I think people will continue to whine about Mesmer till he lose condi's and all his clones forever.

    People complain about condi mirage because mirage relies too much on overvamped quality of life (QoL) aspects and UI clutter the higher skill you get. Mirage can UI clutter with deceptive evasion and standing still, preventing proper targeting of them because their clone overlaps their model and takes target instead, punishing builds that rely on targeting to attack. Furthermore, the concept of target breaking again punishes people and forces them to click target again before casting anything. Mirage cloak being usable during stun/immob/fear makes mirage impossible to stunchain at any point if they have one evade, don't even need to use a stunbreak to do so. Scepter ambush is too long of a cast and hits too many times, resulting in near abusive levels of bleeding from a single ambush cast that is near impossible to completely dodge because the cast is... twice as long as a dodge roll, 5 attacks per clone, bleeding on every critical hit on top of its other effects that more often just become cover conditions that get cleansed instead of the bleeding. Furthermore, the ambush attacks of clones become counterplay to environmental cover and making range because clones use the superspeed of using mirage cloak to run around corners, behind walls, to charge gaps, etc., and STILL have enough time left on that ambush window to cast their ambush at no cost to its damage, resulting often in staggered ambushes akin to staggered shatters. Then, a reflect added on to the end of the dodge roll or other evade if you evade a single attack? And then an AoE daze when you cast heal? Free cleanses when you get stunned, not even when you do anything yourself? Chaos storm granting aegis on top of their other evades, blocks, and invulnerabilities? And these clones that now got buffed with evade frames used most often when the enemy winds up big attacks or big AoE's (just because the caster will likely want to dodge) end up tripling the durability of these clones and they still retain the vitality of normal clones? Mirage is hated for good reason, if you ask me. The problem just becomes Anet often doesn't seem to fully have a feel for why, so they attack some of the bigger, more vital offenses without addressing the QoL and defensive aspects that make the class obnoxious to fight and specifically punishing towards builds that don't have high mobilty and cleave akin to heavies. It's not about being able to find the mirage nowadays, it's more often about getting to click on them without having target broken, stealth, etc., giving them windows where they can punish you while you're just trying to crawl through the UI clutter. That's why mirage is worth complaining about.

    tl;dr mirage has too many quality of life and defensive aspects arenanet hasn't touched properly that end up making the class a pain in the kitten to fight which result in people complaining and arenanet attacking the skill effects instead of mechanics

    Hi :)

    All the wall you wrote can be resume in what i say "I think people will continue to whine about Mesmer till he lose condi's and all his clones forever."

    You just talk about clones and re-targeting + the amount of condi and I understand your pov but the solution is not to nerf (again) mesmer they already get gut really hard.

    You slightly touch the solution when you've been talking about mechanics but if we touch mechs (nerf/change), we have to buff something else to counter balance.

    And i can assure you, my lord, that mesmer have many counter professions which can delete him (thief, ranger, condi fb, fire weaver, scrapper) and once a spec has many counters, i think there's no problem, it's just ppl don't try to adapt theirs self and play always the same thing and want to kill (and survive) to everything with same profession/build. :/

    When you talk counter professions and list "thief, ranger, condi fb, fire weaver, scrapper", it doesn't really convince me when four of those are considered some of the most overpowered, abusive, or least counterable in a not-so-healthy way playstyles. I'd also like to clear up the summary you implied by saying that I'm not referring to removing clones but rather adjusting mechanics that are just fisherpricing mesmer when they can evade while CC'd or they can abuse click target clutter, e.g. using deceptive evasion to stack a clone directly on yourself and become near impossible to click on even when found, or how target breaking is just a direct punishment to classes that rely on having the proper enemy selected to perform abilities instead of just having AoE or cleave abilities that can be thrown in a general direction without need to click target or tab target in any sense. Furthermore, I agree that if things get nerfed they do need counterbalance buffs, but the way I see it, the mechanics mirage can abuse aren't strictly features of the elite spec, nor are they necessarily vital design: they're just abusive quality of life mechanics and tricks that don't make sense in balance retrospect. Like, say, look at necromancer minionmancer. Are they impossible to click because they'll stack a wurm on top of them, or stand inside a bone fiend? No. I'm not saying remove clones and condi, I'm saying fix clone UI cluttering tricks so mirage is more sensible to fight when one's sensible enough to find the right target, and remove the ability to go "Uh oh! Stun incoming! I better just dodge while stunned instead of dodge the stun itself like all other classes do!"

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @FalsePromises.6398
    you have shown yet again that you cant read properly, dont understand or straight up troll.
    1 Warrior is supposed to be countered by condi mes, not the other way around
    2 Weaver counters cmes
    3 Thief counters cmes
    Im being disrespectful becouse you go on forums, and ask for nerfs for something you dont play or understand, becouse .... I honestly dont even know why, for kitten and giggles I guess.
    You are the one being disrespectful here. The fact that almost nobody even bothers commenting on the nonsense you posted would be enough for most people, but you keep going.
    Here is a thing for you mate, CMIRAGE doesnt get to pin his target.
    Every single meta or nonmeta playable build, has more. I repeat MORE tools to escape CC/lockdown then cmirage has CC.
    Let me repeat it for you.
    As Cmirage, you can land every single lockdown ability you have you will STILL not lock down ANYONE.
    As for you mate to put it into simplicity so you can understand.
    IF I use p4 from range, and phantasms spawns at 700 units away from you, you have to move 500 units to get out of range.
    If the nerf goes throught you would have to move 200 unints, meaning you wouldnt take any damage from phantasms, ever. EVER due how phantasms work.
    The only way Cmirage kills anything is when that "thing" kills itself on it.
    have a good day and hopefully you wills top posting nonsense like this in the future

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 26, 2020

    @FalsePromises.6398 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @FalsePromises.6398 said:
    Sagebrands don't have strong chase. Fire weavers don't have strong chase either.

    and both of those builds are probably among the most overpowered stuff you can play currently. Imagine if they had strong chase on top of what they have now...

    Meanwhile Mirage/Mesmer was gutted far enough that even the loud whining on the pvp forum has died down in favor of other classes (not saying Mirage is underpowered).

    My argument isn't give those classes chase. It's that mesmer doesn't need long range pistol abilities under the guise of "chase" because not all classes or builds have/need "chase" to be successful.

    Actually you brought those classes up as argument that chase is not needed. Which I strongly disagree with since both builds you mentioned don't need chase abilities because they are vastly superior in multiple areas over cmirage. I disagreed with the notion of taking some, if not the 2 most, overpowered builds as argument to balance ANYTHING which is weaker than them.

    Also the way phantasms work begs to disagree with your assessment that pistol on mesmer needs a range decrease. Then again, who cares. Not as thought your topic draws a lot of discussion.

  • FalsePromises.6398FalsePromises.6398 Member ✭✭
    edited January 27, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @FalsePromises.6398 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @FalsePromises.6398 said:
    Sagebrands don't have strong chase. Fire weavers don't have strong chase either.

    and both of those builds are probably among the most overpowered stuff you can play currently. Imagine if they had strong chase on top of what they have now...

    Meanwhile Mirage/Mesmer was gutted far enough that even the loud whining on the pvp forum has died down in favor of other classes (not saying Mirage is underpowered).

    My argument isn't give those classes chase. It's that mesmer doesn't need long range pistol abilities under the guise of "chase" because not all classes or builds have/need "chase" to be successful.

    Actually you brought those classes up as argument that chase is not needed. Which I strongly disagree with since both builds you mentioned don't need chase abilities because they are vastly superior in multiple areas over cmirage. I disagreed with the notion of taking some, if not the 2 most, overpowered builds as argument to balance ANYTHING which is weaker than them.

    Also the way phantasms work begs to disagree with your assessment that pistol on mesmer needs a range decrease. Then again, who cares. Not as thought your topic draws a lot of discussion.

    I did bring up those classes as argument that "chase is not needed" in every build in order for them to be successful, yet some styles do depend on it for reasons of lacking in other respects. Second half of the idea is important. If you don't like comparing builds with similar parameters of weak chase but strong and sufficient effectiveness in staying power combat, maybe you'll consider other similar styles like necromancers? Which, in retrospective summation becomes a good portion of the current classes if we're being honest? The only classes I truly feel have good chase oriented combat are rev, ranger, thief, and warrior. That leaves engineer, guardian, necromancer, elementalist, and mesmer as staying power classes, which vary with mesmer and elementalist largely through build. Anyway, if you want to talk about "the way phantasms work" but not divulge further on that, it's really just putting a period on the discussion in that lane, and I'll just consider it either one of two things: a copout or a real desire not to discuss that possibly lengthy subject... which I can feel you on that, I'm starting to get tired bouncing back and forth on this post, so I won't blame you if you just don't want to respond. I mean, unless you're basing "the way phantasms work" off of what the person above you said about phantasm universal spawn range thresholds, which is, as divulged in the other message, based on placement origins and how one would manage such position based on environment, which doesn't take too much brainpower to do if it's considered in the dueling environment.

  • FalsePromises.6398FalsePromises.6398 Member ✭✭
    edited January 27, 2020

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @FalsePromises.6398
    you have shown yet again that you cant read properly, dont understand or straight up troll.
    1 Warrior is supposed to be countered by condi mes, not the other way around
    2 Weaver counters cmes
    3 Thief counters cmes
    Im being disrespectful becouse you go on forums, and ask for nerfs for something you dont play or understand, becouse .... I honestly dont even know why, for kitten and giggles I guess.
    You are the one being disrespectful here. The fact that almost nobody even bothers commenting on the nonsense you posted would be enough for most people, but you keep going.
    Here is a thing for you mate, CMIRAGE doesnt get to pin his target.
    Every single meta or nonmeta playable build, has more. I repeat MORE tools to escape CC/lockdown then cmirage has CC.
    Let me repeat it for you.
    As Cmirage, you can land every single lockdown ability you have you will STILL not lock down ANYONE.
    As for you mate to put it into simplicity so you can understand.
    IF I use p4 from range, and phantasms spawns at 700 units away from you, you have to move 500 units to get out of range.
    If the nerf goes throught you would have to move 200 unints, meaning you wouldnt take any damage from phantasms, ever. EVER due how phantasms work.
    The only way Cmirage kills anything is when that "thing" kills itself on it.
    have a good day and hopefully you wills top posting nonsense like this in the future

    Who said warrior was supposed to be countered by condition mesmer? They have rather numerous methods of damage evasion and at the very least decent cleanses or resistance uptime depending on build. Weaver for the most part probably only counters condi mirage because of the absurdity of their kit, likely pinning on sheer cleanse power, barrier values, and primordial stance. And thief as mentioned in a previous message possibly not part of this chain (can't keep track at this point because I've bounced with so many people) has an unhealthy kit designed around damaging evade based skills and absurd rewards for their resultant near inevitable evasion, and honestly is overdue for some changes in that respect because it is far too rewarding to them against enemies that can't strictly control and/or immediately disable all their skills that have multiple hits or pulsing fields. Furthermore, you can probably blame the lack of lockdown on the taking of staff and scepter, both defensively oriented condition weapons (which I justify with staff being based on teleports, auras, and boon fields with most all damage being based on the clones, autos, and ambushes, and scepter being oriented around the block ability and a ranged damage beam with no lockdown in either). I could argue to take other weapons, or you could argue that he scepter and staff should be buffed in that respect, which I wouldn't fully disagree nor agree with. As for "STILL not (locking) down ANYONE" I raise you necromancers who have... 2 stunbreaks? Usually 2 stunbreaks, sometimes 3, which pans out with at least one having long cooldowns in comparison to mesmer's CC abilities. Also, tack on their sheer lack of mobility skills, which is further compounded if you strip their swiftness with arcane thievery if they run speed runes. Furthermore, the idea of phantasms being spawned at specific range thresholds (and thusly being limited so) is based largely on cast origin/placement of the phantasm, which honestly feels like something that should be considered when casting the ability at all, as you can have someone walk out of range of your 1200 range duelist if casted from 1200 range if they walk less than 100 units or conversely have them have to walk 900 units if casted from 300 range, etc., so the idea of people walking out of range of the phantasm just becomes a fault of you placing your phantasms at too far of a range, or placing them in inopportune areas that are too favorable towards environmental cover or quick escape. Anyway, I think that was the intended change I had in mind towards that phantasm as per the start of the post, having range restricted so it's more a duelist and less a sniper. As towards the idea of mirage only killing things unless they kill themselves on it, that's not strictly a unique idea to mesmer and doesn't even stay consistent across all enemies they face.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @FalsePromises.6398
    Cmirage used to HARD counter warrior.
    Numerous nerfs and nerfs and nerfs on no end make it more and more even.
    Cmirage has no lockdown. Its not becouse we take staff, no condi weapon other then pistol has CC.
    CC from mesmer is fair. More fair then the other classes, thats why mesmer struggles.
    Our p5 doesnt hit for 5k like other classes, we dont have 3s stuns on low cooldown with mobility and evasion attached to it. We dont have heroic with 3 hard CC.
    We just dont.
    Mesmer has ALOT of counterplay, from reflect blocks LoS, cleanses and many many others.
    If you had any clue you would know that phantasms are kitten , torch 5 always misses, phantasm can spawn 1pixel away from wall and immidietly LoS itself.
    IT happens every game, EVERY GAME.
    Let me repeat it for you. Every single meta class has more ways to remove/ignore CC then mesmer has CC.
    Even if I land every single p5, it will take me over 1min of fighting a necro to actually have the stun do anything.
    And if necro runs 3x stun removing tools I will never, NEVER stun him. EVER.
    Why did you even made this post? there is alot of other kitten on other more broken classes.
    The only reason mesmer is playable even is stealth and ambush attacks.
    Most of our abilities are garbage, and mesmer lacks win conditions.
    Most classes have kitten win conditions, do you know what that is?
    its kitten like this -> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Whirling_Defense
    and this -> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Soul_Spiral
    its the abilities, 1 ability. land half of it and you win.
    If you wanna win you gotta land 10-15 hits in a row. Others land half and thats it.
    I dont see you going about whining about actually broken things like bullscharge, you complain about kitten cmirage build.

  • @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @FalsePromises.6398
    Cmirage used to HARD counter warrior.
    Numerous nerfs and nerfs and nerfs on no end make it more and more even.
    Cmirage has no lockdown. Its not becouse we take staff, no condi weapon other then pistol has CC.
    CC from mesmer is fair. More fair then the other classes, thats why mesmer struggles.
    Our p5 doesnt hit for 5k like other classes, we dont have 3s stuns on low cooldown with mobility and evasion attached to it. We dont have heroic with 3 hard CC.
    We just dont.
    Mesmer has ALOT of counterplay, from reflect blocks LoS, cleanses and many many others.
    If you had any clue you would know that phantasms are kitten , torch 5 always misses, phantasm can spawn 1pixel away from wall and immidietly LoS itself.
    IT happens every game, EVERY GAME.
    Let me repeat it for you. Every single meta class has more ways to remove/ignore CC then mesmer has CC.
    Even if I land every single p5, it will take me over 1min of fighting a necro to actually have the stun do anything.
    And if necro runs 3x stun removing tools I will never, NEVER stun him. EVER.
    Why did you even made this post? there is alot of other kitten on other more broken classes.
    The only reason mesmer is playable even is stealth and ambush attacks.
    Most of our abilities are garbage, and mesmer lacks win conditions.
    Most classes have kitten win conditions, do you know what that is?
    its kitten like this -> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Whirling_Defense
    and this -> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Soul_Spiral
    its the abilities, 1 ability. land half of it and you win.
    If you wanna win you gotta land 10-15 hits in a row. Others land half and thats it.
    I dont see you going about whining about actually broken things like bullscharge, you complain about kitten cmirage build.

    I created discussion to discuss, and discussion is occurring. You bring up a lot of points that would bring a fair argument to the table had I said this was the only instance of slightly overtuned skills in the game. Unfortunately, I did not say that. If I wanted to make another run of the mill, carbon copy post complaining about warrior bullcharge or a one sided vent about the damage values of skills highly dependent on close range for their effects, I would. If you ask me, it sounds like you're forgetting just what condi mirage has in their kit in terms of cc. The amount of daze becomes staggering if placed right: it's not about lockdown so much as it's about disruption. The main reason that's not fully sufficing in the end is because anet poorly handled CI if you ask me, should've just removed might and immobilization and called it a day. You do seem to enjoy bringing up a lot of the less favorable aspects of mesmer and point to them as if I'm saying those are overpowered. That is in no way what I'm saying, and if you weren't just pulling things out of your rear end half the time in some mixture of venting and falling down unrelated rabbit holes, this'd be better off. Torch phantasm is weak? Make a discussion about it. Mesmer power is unplayable without crutching on stealth? Make a discussion about it. You seem to be getting mad at me for doing what you're not doing: having concerns and voicing them instead of self pity partying. Let's consider the idea of other classes having more CC counters in the game than CC on mesmer. What stuns do warrior have? Core tactics has two. Two stuns will be broken. Fire weaver has... two again? Maybe 3 depending on build? Ranger has... varying amounts, ranging between 2-4 it seems? Even necromancer, the class that gives up damage mitigation abilities for superior offensive lockdown gets four direct CC's at the high end, which they usually are obligated to take. I don't even think pistol whip can spam enough CC immediately to have a surefire success. Only one class I know can stunchain and overpower any number of stunbreaks near immediately, and that's sagebrand, and that's because of a myriad of other problematic things like mantra mashing for quickness and might on demand, free weakness/cripple/blind on demand, chill/slowness on every single CC that lands, etc. Mirage, assuming condi meta, has... let's see, chaos storm, chaos storm traited on heal, pistol 5, and diversion being a staggerable triple chain daze. Really the only issue mirage faces CC-wise is they rely too much on daze, which doesn't necessitate a stunbreak if you dodge or take cover, but still grants them disruption capabilities. You talk a lot about few "win condition" abilities, but mirage has some rather powerful abilities that compound nonetheless, specifically in phantasmal duelist stacking, what, 11 bleeds assuming it doesn't critically hit once? And it only goes up? And then you have scepter ambush being that second and a half window (AKA two times the duration of a dodge roll and thus not truly counterable by dodging) where every clone casts 5 bolts that apply conditions and can also stack bleeding on each crit themselves too? Then you have staff's whole defensive kit of RNG boons, no-cast teleports, and bouncing autoattacks from staff clones? Mesmer might not be in a tippy top dog spot any more, but that's certainly no reason to say it's pitifully weak. You talk about counterplay, but most any class decently balanced has counterplay. Weaver, even as broken as it is, has counterplay from kiting. Necromancer's counterplay is ranged, mobility, CC, or debilitating conditions. Thief's counterplay is controlling your strikes to avoid granting them benefits during their absurd evade uptimes, etc. Warrior's counterplay is interruption, because they run no stability nowadays. Mesmer's counterplay is AoE and varyingly adding reflects, retaliatory abilities, or high melee reverse pressure depending on build. LoS'ing is not unique to mesmer as a counterplay, nor are cleanses. Saying cleanses are a counter to conditions is like saying evades are a counter to all damage because it can mitigate a select few abilities per fight. If you ask me, I'd certainly love to buff mesmer, but in ways that would better fix them as a whole instead of tacking on more effects to their rickety kit that's been hammered like a broken nail for the right reasons but in the wrong ways.

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭✭

    In last mAt,
    Misha who is one of the best mesmer in this game was the first to die on a condi mirage build with the top survival tools we can have currently. And with pistol.
    He then die regulary.
    So @leonidrex say truth when he say that other class have more cheesy tools and more efficients tools.
    Mean give it 5k damage to be on pair with some other CC then we can talk about range.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @viquing.8254 said:
    In last mAt,
    Misha who is one of the best mesmer in this game was the first to die on a condi mirage build with the top survival tools we can have currently. And with pistol.
    He then die regulary.
    So @leonidrex say truth when he say that other class have more cheesy tools and more efficients tools.
    Mean give it 5k damage to be on pair with some other CC then we can talk about range.

    This is the truth of the mesmer, we have stealth we have burst if we use all glass and we have IH. SUPER cheese.
    Problem is, everything else is far. Far too fair.
    sword 3 deals 1 damage, any other class would do 3k+
    fouc 4 deals no damage, other classes would deal alot with it
    torch 5 always misses
    gs 5 deals almost no damage and has insane cd, other classes would hit 3 times as hard and have half the CD for such a skill.
    and dont evens tart me on sword 4 and 5
    all our skills are far too fair, and thats why mesmer struggles now.

  • @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:
    In last mAt,
    Misha who is one of the best mesmer in this game was the first to die on a condi mirage build with the top survival tools we can have currently. And with pistol.
    He then die regulary.
    So @leonidrex say truth when he say that other class have more cheesy tools and more efficients tools.
    Mean give it 5k damage to be on pair with some other CC then we can talk about range.

    This is the truth of the mesmer, we have stealth we have burst if we use all glass and we have IH. SUPER cheese.
    Problem is, everything else is far. Far too fair.
    sword 3 deals 1 damage, any other class would do 3k+
    fouc 4 deals no damage, other classes would deal alot with it
    torch 5 always misses
    gs 5 deals almost no damage and has insane cd, other classes would hit 3 times as hard and have half the CD for such a skill.
    and dont evens tart me on sword 4 and 5
    all our skills are far too fair, and thats why mesmer struggles now.

    I can definitely agree there: there's decent condi capability that bleeds across many weapons, but not a lot of good power capabilities bleeding across multiple weapons, and that certainly is something worth changing to allow a healthier variety of build styles on mesmer. The problem largely lies at anet's reluctance to allow clones to deal power damage despite allowing them rather strong condi damage in comparison. In my opinion, that should at least change for skills where clones are commanded to cast abilities and similar instances. I can definitely also agree on the lack of power damage tied to CC abilities and such, except maybe on greatsword 5 because that's basically a frontal cone version of ranger's point blank shot for close range, and they seem to do similar damage values. I'd much rather see greatsword reworked to instead focus on casted/channeled high damage abilities instead of remaining in its current state of one of the most burnout style weapons in the game that casts four skills in succession and just resorts to autoattacks. Also focus 4 wouldn't deal a lot of damage on other classes: similar roundup abilities (firebrand tome of courage 3, necromancer chilling grasp, soulbeast weird vine/immobilize roundup beast skill, etc.) do very little power damage if any damage at all, and focus 4 actually has benefits over those skills due to not being projectiles, having no cast, and being 600 radius iirc? I will agree though that sword and torch phantasms are due for some sort of rework, due to their poor ability to make sure their effects hit. I think the issue is anet doesn't know how to make those phantasms have adaptable casts without either turning phantasmal mage into a burning phantasmal duelist or turning phantasmal swordsman into phantasmal rogue.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @FalsePromises.6398
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Illusionary_Wave
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Point_Blank_Shot
    PBS has half the cooldown of Iwave, and almost 3 times as much damage.
    The damage values are not close, not by a long shot. And this is what I mean.
    Its with every weapon and every CC.
    sword 4 daze? 100 dmg.
    curtain 4? 0 dmg.
    f3? 0 dmg.
    p5? 100 dmg.
    Meanwhile other classes boom you with light beam for 5k-9k.
    blank shots for 3-5k
    bullscharge for 5-8k
    and other cancer, mesmer lack low cooldown hard to land STRONG AS kitten abilities that other classes throw at them.
    kitten like this happens
    https://imgur.com/gallery/c9Dqy28
    where ability that can hit 12 times hits for 4k with each tick.
    for grand total of 48k damage.
    And phantasms have additional counterplay no other classes have. Yet they deal even deal enough damage to justify such counterplay.
    Leaving people with cheese cheese cheese, becouse you cant trust your berserker to deal any damage.
    Becouse it can spin the wrong way and clip once for 2k dmg, instead of landing properly for 8k.