Balance Issue Invurlnerability

as you keep adding and adding invurlnerability keep in my its treated indifferent:

classes unable to use offense abilities:

guard renewed focusengi elixir sele mistform

classes able to use offensive abilities:

warrior endure painranger signet of stonemesmer distortionele obsidian fleshthief instant reflexes (while it says evade it acts the same as invurln)

my stance on this is:as you can not conquer any points when invurln you shouldnt dish out dps either. it has its use still when purely defensivly used.

@shinta.8906 said:classes able to use offensive abilities:

You forgot Revenant:

• Unrelenting Assault
• Surge of the Mists

and Warrior

• Whirlwind Attack

As a necro main I can tell, that all these skills are extremely problematic as they don't allow counterplay other than facetank the damage dealt while they are active which is the mainreason why warriors and (only in PvP: pre-nerf) Revenants are potentual hardcounters.

Needless to say I don't like this kind of mechanic for two reasons:1) It's cheesy / dumb -> too forgiving.2) My favorite class can't effectively counter it other than spec into toughness which cripples its own offensive.

endure pain & SoS are not invns like S or RF. they only protect from power damage, not condi damage or cc. you can still be killed or decaped when those skills are up

just an fyi

@choovanski.5462 said:condi damage or ccOkay next time I fight a warrior I just CC him. Pretty sure that will work fine.... NOT.

And if there is one melee class, that counters a scourge's absurd amout of condi pressure (CC and damage), then it's spellbreaker.

@choovanski.5462 said:endure pain & SoS are not invns like S or RF. they only protect from power damage, not condi damage or cc. you can still be killed or decaped when those skills are up

just an fyi

I believe the point being made is there is an increasing "i cannot be killed HA!" issue swelling in pvp, having zero counter-play to such effects means those with little or no such power in turn creates a larger gap between professions and feasible pvp builds boiling it down to invuln-spam ability's to see who out invulns who.

At current this is most prevalent with professions such as spellbreaker which can practically spam full counter for large counter dps while blocking a hit which can be insta-cast before/after ability's like shield 4 and endure pain etc making them for huge portions of any fight un-killable while you take large packets of damage. A good example would be Full counter followed by shield 4 then re-cast full counter after shield 4 ends, an din that time their healing signet restores basically allt he damage you dealt them with ability's like endure pain being used to fill the gaps when they aren't simply dodging which is not dissimilar to dodge spam DD's whom rely on dodging to issue damage while being fairly untouchable.

They should just remove Auto Proc defenses such as Auto Proc CC breaks/reflects and Auto Proc invulnerabilities, watch the health of the game mode increase and then the players will have to make more impactful choices for their Active use Utilities, and have to know when to use a skill instead of letting the game cover for their mistakes.

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:They should just remove Auto Proc defenses such as Auto Proc CC breaks/reflects and Auto Proc invulnerabilities, watch the health of the game mode increase and then the players will have to make more impactful choices for their Active use Utilities, and have to know when to use a skill instead of letting the game cover for their mistakes.

The issue remains that even with all the passive defenses removed, there are still loads of activated defenses which have no cast-times and/or even break stun. All of the total damage negation just needs to be toned down so that people who want to attack actually need to put themselves out at some level of risk. It might also help to make more defenses work like Guardian Focus 5 or Elementalist Arcane Shield (both have a limited number of attacks that they can block before the block stops). Block channels that have no hard cap on number of attacks blocked are awful to deal with because they're often no different than something like the Guardian's elite channel given how "unblockable attack" isn't something that is readily available to almost anybody.

In my opinion, invulnerability is extremely difficult to be balanced in any game that isnt built from the ground up around it. Take GW1 for example, any invulnerability or near invulnerability was abused in cheesy farm builds that would cripple the economy and then be nerfed pretty harshly. Invulnerability isnt fun to play against, it doesnt feel interactive. It feels like I was just punished for trying to play the game.

A great example of a balanced of interactive invulnerability is from League of Legends. Theres an item called Zhonya's Hourglass which grants your character invulnerability for 2.5 seconds. During that time your character cannot move, cant spells, attack and any channels are cancelled or paused. This item also has a lengthy cooldown, 90 seconds. It can make for clutch plays such as holding off death for a crucial cooldown or avoiding a dangerous attack or spell. The enemy has clear counterplay to it too, youre frozen in position unable to avoid anything coming at you for when you come out of invulnerability.

Guild Wars 2 has a fast combat system, people die in seconds. Spells are fast and require a quick reaction. Invulnerability goes against that, you have to slow down to a stand still. Wait until youre allowed to play again then hope they don't chain another together. All while the user gets to play the game against what pretty much becomes a slippery NPC.

@KrHome.1920 said:

@shinta.8906 said:classes able to use offensive abilities:

• Unrelenting Assault
• Surge of the Mists

• Whirlwind Attack

Have you ever tried fighting a scourge on rev? You stand near one, experience spontaneous internal combustion, and die via proxy. I have no clue how you can think rev hard counter necro. Also you can counter unrelenting assault as a necro by interrupting the 3/4 second windup before the evades start, neutering the damage by standing next to minions, using fleshworm or spectral walk to port out of ranger during the windup. Or just tank it with shroud/barrier, necro has the hp to sponge it several times in a row.

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:They should just remove Auto Proc defenses such as Auto Proc CC breaks/reflects and Auto Proc invulnerabilities, watch the health of the game mode increase and then the players will have to make more impactful choices for their Active use Utilities, and have to know when to use a skill instead of letting the game cover for their mistakes.

Yes. Along with that remove all passive stealth applications from traits, and remove those traits that let you cheat death by healing you on receiving a hit that should have downed you

to be fair, unrelenting assault, surge of the mist and whirlwind are not invulnerability skils, they are evade skills, just like the thief staff spamm evade thing. If you want to include evades too, then you can find many other ones, like that ranger sword thing, wich evades on the right and hits, or ele rapid fire... even double tap is an evade!So don't go off topic, the opener is talking about invulnerability skills, i mean the ability to be invulnerable while using different type of skills also, wich is absolutely not the case of the unrelenting assault: when you use this skill, you are stuck in this animation, and if you are a good player you will time the CC at the exact time this animation ends.

Had this post been made 1-2 years ago, I'd bring up the fact that certain "invuln-like" abilities like revenant sword 2, or thief's auto-proc evade trait from acro are actually countered by wards. However there's only 2 wards in the game worth really giving a dam about and they're both underpowered as far as pvp tuning goes.

Yes please, make Renewed Focus instant cast and remove invuln frames.

Evades are not invul since they still take condition damage.

Let's include dodge rolls as well.

Casted invulns like Renewed are fine as it's a slot on the skill bar someone has to take and it prevents point capture, I see no problem with that skill. Ideally things like obsidian flesh wouldn't exist in this game and all auto proc traits would be removed but atm this cannot be done due to the extreme damage present in this meta. Part of the reason every single meta build takes every invuln and auto proc available is to give them a fighting chance to react to stuff before they die. If damage was reduced significantly (both condi and power) and the spammability of skills was reduced significantly you could successfully remove every auto proc trait from the game. However, until that happens you can't remove those without plunging the game into a 1 shot meta where the first person to get off a condi burst or power spike wins the fight.

@Shala.8352 said:to be fair, unrelenting assault, surge of the mist and whirlwind are not invulnerability skils, they are evade skills, just like the thief staff spamm evade thing. If you want to include evades too, then you can find many other ones, like that ranger sword thing, wich evades on the right and hits, or ele rapid fire... even double tap is an evade!So don't go off topic, the opener is talking about invulnerability skills, i mean the ability to be invulnerable while using different type of skills also, wich is absolutely not the case of the unrelenting assault: when you use this skill, you are stuck in this animation, and if you are a good player you will time the CC at the exact time this animation ends.

Double Tap isn’t an Evade..... https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Double_Tap

And there are counters to Evade Skills, they aren’t the same as Invulns, they are Pseudo Invulns since you can be CC’d while evading, namely any area Denial skills a lot of classes have at least one, Shocking Aura from class skills and Runes.

Look, evade is just like invul. You can't take damage. There is no difference besides the name.

@Aza.2105 said:Look, evade is just like invul. You can't take damage. There is no difference besides the name.

Invul nullifies all damage, post application (read applied before invul) and nullifies any application durring.

evade, only stops application and does not stop damage from conditions applied before the evade, so you can down during an evade.

@Aza.2105 said:Look, evade is just like invul. You can't take damage. There is no difference besides the name.

You can be CC’d while evading, you can’t be CC’d while Invulns.... which means that they are different.

@Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485 Invulns don’t stop already applied Condi damage, you can down while Invuln from Condis if they are already applied.

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Aza.2105 said:Look, evade is just like invul. You can't take damage. There is no difference besides the name.

You can't evade wards and DH's spear of justice. I think that is about it. In other words a very niche selection of skills.

@Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485 said:Evades are not invul since they still take condition damage.

that's exactly how invul works...you still take condition damage, you just don't get affected by skills that inflict conditions so you dont take additional condition damage..

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Aza.2105 said:Look, evade is just like invul. You can't take damage. There is no difference besides the name.

but there's hardly any skill that will CC during evade frame, so it's infinitely close to invul frame

@KrHome.1920 said:

@shinta.8906 said:classes able to use offensive abilities:

• Unrelenting Assault
• Surge of the Mists

• Whirlwind Attack

Since when whirlwind attack become an invulnerable?

It is a skill with evade frame, if that court, there are tons of the skill with evade frame you are missing.

@Lighter.5631 said:

@Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485 said:Evades are not invul since they still take condition damage.

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Aza.2105 said:Look, evade is just like invul. You can't take damage. There is no difference besides the name.

Oh really?

Skills with area denial purposes: Line of Warding, Ring of Warding, Dragon's Maw, Unsteady Ground, Static Field, Slick Shoes, Spectral Wall, Temporal Curtain's cripple, and others.

The pull skill for Guardian (the chain skill of Binding Blade) and Hunter's Verdict for Dragonhunter (the chain skill of Spear of Justice) are also unevadeable.

Auras especially Shocking and Fire Shield, Chaos Armor, Light, then there is Retal , etc all Go through Evades, all have Multiple sources.

So yeah so few...

@Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485 said:Evades are not invul since they still take condition damage.

You still take condi damage under elixir s, too.