Nerf Thief - Page 4 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Nerf Thief

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  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    I love seeing mesmers complain about any class lol I was in arena couple nights ago playing spellbreaker and a mirage walked up and bursted more than 3/4 of my 19+k/3000 toughness hp in literally a sec lol and had he wanted to could have done it from stealth and they complain about other classes burst? Cmon get outa here.

    I know the combo.
    gs4-> gs2->blink->f3->mantra->f1->gs3
    thats 7 abilities, if anything its sad that he can land all 7 and ONLY do 3/4 of your HP.

    EDIT
    mesmers damage is not the issue, its the fact that they can overlap several skills over eachother, becouse almost everything hits with a delay.
    if I use gs4 then follow up with gs3 and then shatter, you get hit by 3 skills in the same frame for big damage. and people dont even realise that you got hit by 3 skills and not 1 or 2. for every mesmer that burst me for 3/4 HP I had 10 warriors that did 1/2 my HP with lucky 4x crit gs3 spin ( 8s cd btw ).

    First of all, if a Warrior got you to half health off of just that one spin, then the Mesmers you faced shouldve all oneshot you (well beyond even, should be something around 1.7 times your health they did in damage). Second of all, how did you get hit by 4 impacts of GS3. You dont have the kitten hitbox that PvE enemies have, so you had to walk alongside it, and be fast enough in doing so.

    This is what I mean, unrealistic hyperbole blind bias. If a warrior gor a mesmer to half health in one whirlwind ud have to be against a structure or something. I play warrior a lot these days and even when full of might gs3 thru a mirage does not take it to half hp, 2nd their almost impossible to hard cc and u as the warrior actually built for sturdiness can in fact be taken to almost downstate by said mirage in one burst so quit complaining, ur getting outplayed by ur counter simple as that.

    delusional lol
    wish I was taking screenshots of all the dodges that crit me for 5k
    or 13k arcing slices throught 3k toughness
    3k/tick gs3 or all the gs4 throws for 4k/tick
    25might is cancer, warrior has ALOT of overtuned stat bonuses that makes their farts hit like a truck and pretending that gs3 if landed properly doesnt chunk people is simply lying.

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    I love seeing mesmers complain about any class lol I was in arena couple nights ago playing spellbreaker and a mirage walked up and bursted more than 3/4 of my 19+k/3000 toughness hp in literally a sec lol and had he wanted to could have done it from stealth and they complain about other classes burst? Cmon get outa here.

    I know the combo.
    gs4-> gs2->blink->f3->mantra->f1->gs3
    thats 7 abilities, if anything its sad that he can land all 7 and ONLY do 3/4 of your HP.

    EDIT
    mesmers damage is not the issue, its the fact that they can overlap several skills over eachother, becouse almost everything hits with a delay.
    if I use gs4 then follow up with gs3 and then shatter, you get hit by 3 skills in the same frame for big damage. and people dont even realise that you got hit by 3 skills and not 1 or 2. for every mesmer that burst me for 3/4 HP I had 10 warriors that did 1/2 my HP with lucky 4x crit gs3 spin ( 8s cd btw ).

    I dont care how many skills it takes if it can be completed in under a second that's a burst just like any other, quit using that as a excuse as its hitting the opponent seemingly instantly. A thief could say their burst takes 15 skill if including all the black powder, smoke screen, heart seekers, steal and finally backstab if were just throwing timeframes of burst completion out the window.

    if you cant dodge 1s windup combo go play tetris and not action game.

    Oh if only it was 1s. In truth, the combo (unless youre going full combo which is excessive) takes .2 seconds. Meaning you have .16 seconds (roughly) to react to it. Spoiler: very few people have reaction times faster than .2 seconds. Its something like .5%.

    we are talking about different combo.

    So u guys have more than one crazy high burst combo that completed basically instantly? Must be nice :)

    we call it combo, other classes call it 2 abilities.
    some even call it 3 autoattacks

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2020

    @Crackmonster.2790 said:
    Thieves are filthy animals. They have so much over the top kitten.
    They destroy you fast as hell, they sometimes oneshot you directly in a single attack from stealth, they stealth all around and are thereby annoying as kitten, their mobility is insane i can't even catch them using several teleports and speed runes they still just charge away as they want faster than a lightning. They have a lot of evade kitten and imagine how much they nerfed mirages till now mirages aint got nothing almost but those filthy thieves got so much they must pay the price, enough is enough they are freestyling from extreme safety, extreme mobility and oneshot from stealth potential-
    while other classes get any of their powers kept extremely in check.

    Lol "Thief wont let me be op."

    @noot.8641 said:
    Funny how everyone is compaining about a skill that has been there since forever, infiltrators arrow had not been changed since a long time, and now u guys qq about it? That skill is the bread and butter for s/d thieves, if you nerf that s/d will be poop.

    Why do people keep using this argument? It doesnt work. The devs don't care about the status quo. Did you see the patch?

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    In that case you must be playing glass, they must be playing glass (so Berserker instead of Marauder and Scholar instead of Eagle, and quite possibly dropping SA for CS. Because otherwise, 9k isnt achievable.

    you can hit 9k on mara vs a glass or mara target. Shadow Arts damage buffs is exactly why they can, now.
    There's even a sleeper build that hits for higher than that on Deadeye, but not gonna talk about that because it trades surprise for damage.
    It's getting nerfed anyway so meh.

    [Charr Noises]
    [I play every class!]
    [Fight me in the arena anytime!]

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2020

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    So let me get this strait here. Thief right now can do a huge burst with dp and follow up with said current dps. After patch the burst is getting lowered as a classes are but hp and toughness remain the same leading to longer fights which thief doesnt really excell at but things are going to be the same cuz the dps nerfs were blanket?
    I could see if base hp and tough ess were taking hits but as far as I know their not which is a significant factor no?

    Perma stealth build that is currently bursting for 14-16k damage from stealth is going down to 12-14k in a balance patch where healing, protection, mobility, and active mitigation for everyone else is getting nerfed by 30-60%. Thief players think their class is being over nerfed.

    I dont know where you got this idea of 14-16k bursts, but D/P does not burst nearly that hard. Hell it doesnt even burst for 12-14k right now. It bursts for 7-8k. Which goes down to 4.5-5.5k burst. On a super glassy build with minimal defenses and very low DPS after the initial burst. I dont know why you think its getting away lightly, when in truth, its probably getting hit worse than most builds. Because not all damage reductions are equal. A burst build gets a lot worse after a 30% damage reduction than a bunker build or a skirmisher build.

    It's not just Backstab.

    I've seen backstab hit for anywhere between 6-9k damage on a crit. This is overlapped with Mug for 2.5k damage multicasted on top of the burst. Both of these proc Leeching Venoms if they've stacked in stealth, which they almost certainly have. This adds up to another 1k damage. Backstab also procs Shadow Siphoning for another 600 damage. Both parts of the double strike come out in 0.25 seconds after the backstab+mug combo. These will both do about 1.1k+1.1k damage. These will also both proc Leeching Venoms for another 1k damage.

    6-9000+2,500+600+1000+1100+1100+1000 =13,300-16,300 damage with even less of a tell than a mesmer greatsword burst.

    Ok Im gonna have to correct your damage on several points here. First, Backstab will usually hit in the 5-7k area. 9k is on glass builds, and we dont have many of those in the meta. Second, if Backstab is hitting for 6-9k, Mug is not hitting for 2.5k. Itll be hitting for about 1.5-2k. Leeching Venoms will only hit for 800, and Double Strike is a lot slower (Total time for attack sequence is once every 1.68 seconds, indicating that double strike, which takes up about 30%, is about half a second), and hits less hard (It hits for exactly 1/4 of backstabs damage in total, so if backstab is hitting for 5-7k, itll be hitting for 1.25k-1.75k).

    So if we adjust the damage properly, its 5000-7000+1500+500+800+1250-1750+800=9850-12350 damage. And thats with me using the higher values for Leeching Venom, Mug and Shadow Siphoning. Not a big difference though. And thats if you include Double Strike in the burst which personally I dont, but youre free to, thats a matter of opinion.

    And now, to compare it to GS burst from Mesmer. First, it doesnt have less of a tell, because both of them have the same tell. None. In both cases the entire damage of the burst happens out of stealth in .2 seconds, which is faster than human reaction time (and in the case of Mesmer might or might not be backed up by a stun). Now of course, GS burst is a lot higher. Thats not surprising, GS burst has a longer cooldown and requires more time between attempts, so it has to. Mind you, its not the bursts damage or the ability to react to it that has made Shatter Mesmer fall off. Its the fact that its map mobility is frankly pathetic nowadays. Portal aint what it used to be.

    I literally just used the Assassin Signet burst combo on the medium target golem and those were the numbers I got and used when making that post.

    I did the same thing, but only to check the damage ratios. Though that being said, I did the same thing, and my backstab did not exceed 6.5k, so Im not sure where you got 9k from.

    I get 9k from being hit by them.

    In that case you must be playing glass, they must be playing glass (so Berserker instead of Marauder and Scholar instead of Eagle, and quite possibly dropping SA for CS. Because otherwise, 9k isnt achievable.

    https://imgur.com/a/MxS1UWE
    First dps log on rabid amu undead runes, needless to say he is almost dead anyway?
    The second on marauder pistol 5+2 into BS.
    3rd on marauder without hs'ing into backstab.
    Isnt achievable ? Really?

    Ok Im not sure what Im seeing here, but just to start, how the hell do you have that much variance on the damage. If 2 and 3 are on the same target (which it seems to be), then there is no way your backstab should be doing nearly twice the damage. The same is true for steal, that one is fluctuating way too hard as well. Did they just take off their armour to lower their defense stat? Because the second one, the 6.6k damage is what you should be expecting. And 11k is just not doable without taking off armour .

    If you have EYES you can see that salad with ARMOR on. I even shown you my traitlines Im running. Fresh screen of backstabbing DAREDEVIL, see the same link, added 1 more screen 10k on medium armored target, enjoy. Feel free to accuse me in photoshoping, in paint xD

    What I can see is Damage Number Fluctuations that arent possible. Damage in GW2 does fluctuate, but only by 10% at max. Yours fluctuated by 20-50%. Something isnt right. In fact, I can even show that using the medium golem, and the damage formula. So in essence, the way damage works is its your total damage (which is a more complicated formula I wont get into here), divided by your Armor, which is equivalent to your Defense + your Toughness. Light Classes have 1924 Armor by default, while medium have 2029. The Medium Target Golem has 2322 (turns out I was slightly incorrect, its less damage than on glass, but more damage than on tankier builds). So then, how much damage does the Medium Target Golem take? Well, this much. 5.9-6.9k. So, how much damage does that translate to for the other classes? Thankfully, the math is easy. We take 5.9k-6.9k, multiply it with 2322, then divide it by their armor. For Medium, thats 5900*2322/2024=6768 to 6900*2322/2024=7915. For Light, its 5900*2322/1924=7.12k to 6900*2322/1924=8327. Note that even the higher end of damage fluctuation doesnt reach 9k. So, how exactly did you get over 10k?

    Edit: Oh and for fun, lets take a look at Rabid Undead. First of all its of course not true that this is the highest toughness. That would be Cavalier, which has 300 more Toughness. But thats not important, noone runs Cavalier. So, compared to the 1924, thats an extra 900 armor from the Rabid Amulet, and an extra 225 from Undead Runes. So, their total Armor increases from 1924 to 3049 armor. Lets do the math again. 5900*2322/3049=4493, and 6900*2322/3049=5254. Once again, a whole lot less than 6.7k. Something doesnt add up.

  • Odik.4587Odik.4587 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    So let me get this strait here. Thief right now can do a huge burst with dp and follow up with said current dps. After patch the burst is getting lowered as a classes are but hp and toughness remain the same leading to longer fights which thief doesnt really excell at but things are going to be the same cuz the dps nerfs were blanket?
    I could see if base hp and tough ess were taking hits but as far as I know their not which is a significant factor no?

    Perma stealth build that is currently bursting for 14-16k damage from stealth is going down to 12-14k in a balance patch where healing, protection, mobility, and active mitigation for everyone else is getting nerfed by 30-60%. Thief players think their class is being over nerfed.

    I dont know where you got this idea of 14-16k bursts, but D/P does not burst nearly that hard. Hell it doesnt even burst for 12-14k right now. It bursts for 7-8k. Which goes down to 4.5-5.5k burst. On a super glassy build with minimal defenses and very low DPS after the initial burst. I dont know why you think its getting away lightly, when in truth, its probably getting hit worse than most builds. Because not all damage reductions are equal. A burst build gets a lot worse after a 30% damage reduction than a bunker build or a skirmisher build.

    It's not just Backstab.

    I've seen backstab hit for anywhere between 6-9k damage on a crit. This is overlapped with Mug for 2.5k damage multicasted on top of the burst. Both of these proc Leeching Venoms if they've stacked in stealth, which they almost certainly have. This adds up to another 1k damage. Backstab also procs Shadow Siphoning for another 600 damage. Both parts of the double strike come out in 0.25 seconds after the backstab+mug combo. These will both do about 1.1k+1.1k damage. These will also both proc Leeching Venoms for another 1k damage.

    6-9000+2,500+600+1000+1100+1100+1000 =13,300-16,300 damage with even less of a tell than a mesmer greatsword burst.

    Ok Im gonna have to correct your damage on several points here. First, Backstab will usually hit in the 5-7k area. 9k is on glass builds, and we dont have many of those in the meta. Second, if Backstab is hitting for 6-9k, Mug is not hitting for 2.5k. Itll be hitting for about 1.5-2k. Leeching Venoms will only hit for 800, and Double Strike is a lot slower (Total time for attack sequence is once every 1.68 seconds, indicating that double strike, which takes up about 30%, is about half a second), and hits less hard (It hits for exactly 1/4 of backstabs damage in total, so if backstab is hitting for 5-7k, itll be hitting for 1.25k-1.75k).

    So if we adjust the damage properly, its 5000-7000+1500+500+800+1250-1750+800=9850-12350 damage. And thats with me using the higher values for Leeching Venom, Mug and Shadow Siphoning. Not a big difference though. And thats if you include Double Strike in the burst which personally I dont, but youre free to, thats a matter of opinion.

    And now, to compare it to GS burst from Mesmer. First, it doesnt have less of a tell, because both of them have the same tell. None. In both cases the entire damage of the burst happens out of stealth in .2 seconds, which is faster than human reaction time (and in the case of Mesmer might or might not be backed up by a stun). Now of course, GS burst is a lot higher. Thats not surprising, GS burst has a longer cooldown and requires more time between attempts, so it has to. Mind you, its not the bursts damage or the ability to react to it that has made Shatter Mesmer fall off. Its the fact that its map mobility is frankly pathetic nowadays. Portal aint what it used to be.

    I literally just used the Assassin Signet burst combo on the medium target golem and those were the numbers I got and used when making that post.

    I did the same thing, but only to check the damage ratios. Though that being said, I did the same thing, and my backstab did not exceed 6.5k, so Im not sure where you got 9k from.

    I get 9k from being hit by them.

    In that case you must be playing glass, they must be playing glass (so Berserker instead of Marauder and Scholar instead of Eagle, and quite possibly dropping SA for CS. Because otherwise, 9k isnt achievable.

    https://imgur.com/a/MxS1UWE
    First dps log on rabid amu undead runes, needless to say he is almost dead anyway?
    The second on marauder pistol 5+2 into BS.
    3rd on marauder without hs'ing into backstab.
    Isnt achievable ? Really?

    Ok Im not sure what Im seeing here, but just to start, how the hell do you have that much variance on the damage. If 2 and 3 are on the same target (which it seems to be), then there is no way your backstab should be doing nearly twice the damage. The same is true for steal, that one is fluctuating way too hard as well. Did they just take off their armour to lower their defense stat? Because the second one, the 6.6k damage is what you should be expecting. And 11k is just not doable without taking off armour .

    If you have EYES you can see that salad with ARMOR on. I even shown you my traitlines Im running. Fresh screen of backstabbing DAREDEVIL, see the same link, added 1 more screen 10k on medium armored target, enjoy. Feel free to accuse me in photoshoping, in paint xD

    What I can see is Damage Number Fluctuations that arent possible. Damage in GW2 does fluctuate, but only by 10% at max. Yours fluctuated by 20-50%. Something isnt right. In fact, I can even show that using the medium golem, and the damage formula. So in essence, the way damage works is its your total damage (which is a more complicated formula I wont get into here), divided by your Armor, which is equivalent to your Defense + your Toughness. Light Classes have 1924 Armor by default, while medium have 2029. The Medium Target Golem has 2322 (turns out I was slightly incorrect, its less damage than on glass, but more damage than on tankier builds). So then, how much damage does the Medium Target Golem take? Well, this much. 5.9-6.9k. So, how much damage does that translate to for the other classes? Thankfully, the math is easy. We take 5.9k-6.9k, multiply it with 2322, then divide it by their armor. For Medium, thats 5900*2322/2024=6768 to 6900*2322/2024=7915. For Light, its 5900*2322/1924=7.12k to 6900*2322/1924=8327. Note that even the higher end of damage fluctuation doesnt reach 9k. So, how exactly did you get over 10k?

    Obviously I'm using assasins signet? Give me 500g(for my efforts to make and upload it) and I will make a video instead of screenshots, deal ? ;)

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    So let me get this strait here. Thief right now can do a huge burst with dp and follow up with said current dps. After patch the burst is getting lowered as a classes are but hp and toughness remain the same leading to longer fights which thief doesnt really excell at but things are going to be the same cuz the dps nerfs were blanket?
    I could see if base hp and tough ess were taking hits but as far as I know their not which is a significant factor no?

    Perma stealth build that is currently bursting for 14-16k damage from stealth is going down to 12-14k in a balance patch where healing, protection, mobility, and active mitigation for everyone else is getting nerfed by 30-60%. Thief players think their class is being over nerfed.

    I dont know where you got this idea of 14-16k bursts, but D/P does not burst nearly that hard. Hell it doesnt even burst for 12-14k right now. It bursts for 7-8k. Which goes down to 4.5-5.5k burst. On a super glassy build with minimal defenses and very low DPS after the initial burst. I dont know why you think its getting away lightly, when in truth, its probably getting hit worse than most builds. Because not all damage reductions are equal. A burst build gets a lot worse after a 30% damage reduction than a bunker build or a skirmisher build.

    It's not just Backstab.

    I've seen backstab hit for anywhere between 6-9k damage on a crit. This is overlapped with Mug for 2.5k damage multicasted on top of the burst. Both of these proc Leeching Venoms if they've stacked in stealth, which they almost certainly have. This adds up to another 1k damage. Backstab also procs Shadow Siphoning for another 600 damage. Both parts of the double strike come out in 0.25 seconds after the backstab+mug combo. These will both do about 1.1k+1.1k damage. These will also both proc Leeching Venoms for another 1k damage.

    6-9000+2,500+600+1000+1100+1100+1000 =13,300-16,300 damage with even less of a tell than a mesmer greatsword burst.

    Ok Im gonna have to correct your damage on several points here. First, Backstab will usually hit in the 5-7k area. 9k is on glass builds, and we dont have many of those in the meta. Second, if Backstab is hitting for 6-9k, Mug is not hitting for 2.5k. Itll be hitting for about 1.5-2k. Leeching Venoms will only hit for 800, and Double Strike is a lot slower (Total time for attack sequence is once every 1.68 seconds, indicating that double strike, which takes up about 30%, is about half a second), and hits less hard (It hits for exactly 1/4 of backstabs damage in total, so if backstab is hitting for 5-7k, itll be hitting for 1.25k-1.75k).

    So if we adjust the damage properly, its 5000-7000+1500+500+800+1250-1750+800=9850-12350 damage. And thats with me using the higher values for Leeching Venom, Mug and Shadow Siphoning. Not a big difference though. And thats if you include Double Strike in the burst which personally I dont, but youre free to, thats a matter of opinion.

    And now, to compare it to GS burst from Mesmer. First, it doesnt have less of a tell, because both of them have the same tell. None. In both cases the entire damage of the burst happens out of stealth in .2 seconds, which is faster than human reaction time (and in the case of Mesmer might or might not be backed up by a stun). Now of course, GS burst is a lot higher. Thats not surprising, GS burst has a longer cooldown and requires more time between attempts, so it has to. Mind you, its not the bursts damage or the ability to react to it that has made Shatter Mesmer fall off. Its the fact that its map mobility is frankly pathetic nowadays. Portal aint what it used to be.

    I literally just used the Assassin Signet burst combo on the medium target golem and those were the numbers I got and used when making that post.

    I did the same thing, but only to check the damage ratios. Though that being said, I did the same thing, and my backstab did not exceed 6.5k, so Im not sure where you got 9k from.

    I get 9k from being hit by them.

    In that case you must be playing glass, they must be playing glass (so Berserker instead of Marauder and Scholar instead of Eagle, and quite possibly dropping SA for CS. Because otherwise, 9k isnt achievable.

    https://imgur.com/a/MxS1UWE
    First dps log on rabid amu undead runes, needless to say he is almost dead anyway?
    The second on marauder pistol 5+2 into BS.
    3rd on marauder without hs'ing into backstab.
    Isnt achievable ? Really?

    Ok Im not sure what Im seeing here, but just to start, how the hell do you have that much variance on the damage. If 2 and 3 are on the same target (which it seems to be), then there is no way your backstab should be doing nearly twice the damage. The same is true for steal, that one is fluctuating way too hard as well. Did they just take off their armour to lower their defense stat? Because the second one, the 6.6k damage is what you should be expecting. And 11k is just not doable without taking off armour .

    If you have EYES you can see that salad with ARMOR on. I even shown you my traitlines Im running. Fresh screen of backstabbing DAREDEVIL, see the same link, added 1 more screen 10k on medium armored target, enjoy. Feel free to accuse me in photoshoping, in paint xD

    What I can see is Damage Number Fluctuations that arent possible. Damage in GW2 does fluctuate, but only by 10% at max. Yours fluctuated by 20-50%. Something isnt right. In fact, I can even show that using the medium golem, and the damage formula. So in essence, the way damage works is its your total damage (which is a more complicated formula I wont get into here), divided by your Armor, which is equivalent to your Defense + your Toughness. Light Classes have 1924 Armor by default, while medium have 2029. The Medium Target Golem has 2322 (turns out I was slightly incorrect, its less damage than on glass, but more damage than on tankier builds). So then, how much damage does the Medium Target Golem take? Well, this much. 5.9-6.9k. So, how much damage does that translate to for the other classes? Thankfully, the math is easy. We take 5.9k-6.9k, multiply it with 2322, then divide it by their armor. For Medium, thats 5900*2322/2024=6768 to 6900*2322/2024=7915. For Light, its 5900*2322/1924=7.12k to 6900*2322/1924=8327. Note that even the higher end of damage fluctuation doesnt reach 9k. So, how exactly did you get over 10k?

    Obviously I'm using assasins signet? Give me 500g(for my efforts to make and upload it) and I will make a video instead of screenshots, deal ? ;)

    And if you looked at my screenshots, obviously I am using Assassin's Signet as well. Thats where I got my numbers from. And still, the damage doesnt add up. Yours is a lot higher than is at all possible. You would need some kind of additional damage multipliers to reach the damage youre getting, or an armor value below minimum. I cant tell which it is, but I can tell that it is one of those.

  • Odik.4587Odik.4587 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    So let me get this strait here. Thief right now can do a huge burst with dp and follow up with said current dps. After patch the burst is getting lowered as a classes are but hp and toughness remain the same leading to longer fights which thief doesnt really excell at but things are going to be the same cuz the dps nerfs were blanket?
    I could see if base hp and tough ess were taking hits but as far as I know their not which is a significant factor no?

    Perma stealth build that is currently bursting for 14-16k damage from stealth is going down to 12-14k in a balance patch where healing, protection, mobility, and active mitigation for everyone else is getting nerfed by 30-60%. Thief players think their class is being over nerfed.

    I dont know where you got this idea of 14-16k bursts, but D/P does not burst nearly that hard. Hell it doesnt even burst for 12-14k right now. It bursts for 7-8k. Which goes down to 4.5-5.5k burst. On a super glassy build with minimal defenses and very low DPS after the initial burst. I dont know why you think its getting away lightly, when in truth, its probably getting hit worse than most builds. Because not all damage reductions are equal. A burst build gets a lot worse after a 30% damage reduction than a bunker build or a skirmisher build.

    It's not just Backstab.

    I've seen backstab hit for anywhere between 6-9k damage on a crit. This is overlapped with Mug for 2.5k damage multicasted on top of the burst. Both of these proc Leeching Venoms if they've stacked in stealth, which they almost certainly have. This adds up to another 1k damage. Backstab also procs Shadow Siphoning for another 600 damage. Both parts of the double strike come out in 0.25 seconds after the backstab+mug combo. These will both do about 1.1k+1.1k damage. These will also both proc Leeching Venoms for another 1k damage.

    6-9000+2,500+600+1000+1100+1100+1000 =13,300-16,300 damage with even less of a tell than a mesmer greatsword burst.

    Ok Im gonna have to correct your damage on several points here. First, Backstab will usually hit in the 5-7k area. 9k is on glass builds, and we dont have many of those in the meta. Second, if Backstab is hitting for 6-9k, Mug is not hitting for 2.5k. Itll be hitting for about 1.5-2k. Leeching Venoms will only hit for 800, and Double Strike is a lot slower (Total time for attack sequence is once every 1.68 seconds, indicating that double strike, which takes up about 30%, is about half a second), and hits less hard (It hits for exactly 1/4 of backstabs damage in total, so if backstab is hitting for 5-7k, itll be hitting for 1.25k-1.75k).

    So if we adjust the damage properly, its 5000-7000+1500+500+800+1250-1750+800=9850-12350 damage. And thats with me using the higher values for Leeching Venom, Mug and Shadow Siphoning. Not a big difference though. And thats if you include Double Strike in the burst which personally I dont, but youre free to, thats a matter of opinion.

    And now, to compare it to GS burst from Mesmer. First, it doesnt have less of a tell, because both of them have the same tell. None. In both cases the entire damage of the burst happens out of stealth in .2 seconds, which is faster than human reaction time (and in the case of Mesmer might or might not be backed up by a stun). Now of course, GS burst is a lot higher. Thats not surprising, GS burst has a longer cooldown and requires more time between attempts, so it has to. Mind you, its not the bursts damage or the ability to react to it that has made Shatter Mesmer fall off. Its the fact that its map mobility is frankly pathetic nowadays. Portal aint what it used to be.

    I literally just used the Assassin Signet burst combo on the medium target golem and those were the numbers I got and used when making that post.

    I did the same thing, but only to check the damage ratios. Though that being said, I did the same thing, and my backstab did not exceed 6.5k, so Im not sure where you got 9k from.

    I get 9k from being hit by them.

    In that case you must be playing glass, they must be playing glass (so Berserker instead of Marauder and Scholar instead of Eagle, and quite possibly dropping SA for CS. Because otherwise, 9k isnt achievable.

    https://imgur.com/a/MxS1UWE
    First dps log on rabid amu undead runes, needless to say he is almost dead anyway?
    The second on marauder pistol 5+2 into BS.
    3rd on marauder without hs'ing into backstab.
    Isnt achievable ? Really?

    Ok Im not sure what Im seeing here, but just to start, how the hell do you have that much variance on the damage. If 2 and 3 are on the same target (which it seems to be), then there is no way your backstab should be doing nearly twice the damage. The same is true for steal, that one is fluctuating way too hard as well. Did they just take off their armour to lower their defense stat? Because the second one, the 6.6k damage is what you should be expecting. And 11k is just not doable without taking off armour .

    If you have EYES you can see that salad with ARMOR on. I even shown you my traitlines Im running. Fresh screen of backstabbing DAREDEVIL, see the same link, added 1 more screen 10k on medium armored target, enjoy. Feel free to accuse me in photoshoping, in paint xD

    What I can see is Damage Number Fluctuations that arent possible. Damage in GW2 does fluctuate, but only by 10% at max. Yours fluctuated by 20-50%. Something isnt right. In fact, I can even show that using the medium golem, and the damage formula. So in essence, the way damage works is its your total damage (which is a more complicated formula I wont get into here), divided by your Armor, which is equivalent to your Defense + your Toughness. Light Classes have 1924 Armor by default, while medium have 2029. The Medium Target Golem has 2322 (turns out I was slightly incorrect, its less damage than on glass, but more damage than on tankier builds). So then, how much damage does the Medium Target Golem take? Well, this much. 5.9-6.9k. So, how much damage does that translate to for the other classes? Thankfully, the math is easy. We take 5.9k-6.9k, multiply it with 2322, then divide it by their armor. For Medium, thats 5900*2322/2024=6768 to 6900*2322/2024=7915. For Light, its 5900*2322/1924=7.12k to 6900*2322/1924=8327. Note that even the higher end of damage fluctuation doesnt reach 9k. So, how exactly did you get over 10k?

    Obviously I'm using assasins signet? Give me 500g(for my efforts to make and upload it) and I will make a video instead of screenshots, deal ? ;)

    And if you looked at my screenshots, obviously I am using Assassin's Signet as well. Thats where I got my numbers from. And still, the damage doesnt add up. Yours is a lot higher than is at all possible. You would need some kind of additional damage multipliers to reach the damage youre getting, or an armor value below minimum. I cant tell which it is, but I can tell that it is one of those.

    Mr.thicchead. I'm stabbing real players, not golems with overblown armor values? My backstab on the golem is the same as yours. (p.s I dont have eagle rune, its scholar, just in case you are lost there)

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    So let me get this strait here. Thief right now can do a huge burst with dp and follow up with said current dps. After patch the burst is getting lowered as a classes are but hp and toughness remain the same leading to longer fights which thief doesnt really excell at but things are going to be the same cuz the dps nerfs were blanket?
    I could see if base hp and tough ess were taking hits but as far as I know their not which is a significant factor no?

    Perma stealth build that is currently bursting for 14-16k damage from stealth is going down to 12-14k in a balance patch where healing, protection, mobility, and active mitigation for everyone else is getting nerfed by 30-60%. Thief players think their class is being over nerfed.

    I dont know where you got this idea of 14-16k bursts, but D/P does not burst nearly that hard. Hell it doesnt even burst for 12-14k right now. It bursts for 7-8k. Which goes down to 4.5-5.5k burst. On a super glassy build with minimal defenses and very low DPS after the initial burst. I dont know why you think its getting away lightly, when in truth, its probably getting hit worse than most builds. Because not all damage reductions are equal. A burst build gets a lot worse after a 30% damage reduction than a bunker build or a skirmisher build.

    It's not just Backstab.

    I've seen backstab hit for anywhere between 6-9k damage on a crit. This is overlapped with Mug for 2.5k damage multicasted on top of the burst. Both of these proc Leeching Venoms if they've stacked in stealth, which they almost certainly have. This adds up to another 1k damage. Backstab also procs Shadow Siphoning for another 600 damage. Both parts of the double strike come out in 0.25 seconds after the backstab+mug combo. These will both do about 1.1k+1.1k damage. These will also both proc Leeching Venoms for another 1k damage.

    6-9000+2,500+600+1000+1100+1100+1000 =13,300-16,300 damage with even less of a tell than a mesmer greatsword burst.

    Ok Im gonna have to correct your damage on several points here. First, Backstab will usually hit in the 5-7k area. 9k is on glass builds, and we dont have many of those in the meta. Second, if Backstab is hitting for 6-9k, Mug is not hitting for 2.5k. Itll be hitting for about 1.5-2k. Leeching Venoms will only hit for 800, and Double Strike is a lot slower (Total time for attack sequence is once every 1.68 seconds, indicating that double strike, which takes up about 30%, is about half a second), and hits less hard (It hits for exactly 1/4 of backstabs damage in total, so if backstab is hitting for 5-7k, itll be hitting for 1.25k-1.75k).

    So if we adjust the damage properly, its 5000-7000+1500+500+800+1250-1750+800=9850-12350 damage. And thats with me using the higher values for Leeching Venom, Mug and Shadow Siphoning. Not a big difference though. And thats if you include Double Strike in the burst which personally I dont, but youre free to, thats a matter of opinion.

    And now, to compare it to GS burst from Mesmer. First, it doesnt have less of a tell, because both of them have the same tell. None. In both cases the entire damage of the burst happens out of stealth in .2 seconds, which is faster than human reaction time (and in the case of Mesmer might or might not be backed up by a stun). Now of course, GS burst is a lot higher. Thats not surprising, GS burst has a longer cooldown and requires more time between attempts, so it has to. Mind you, its not the bursts damage or the ability to react to it that has made Shatter Mesmer fall off. Its the fact that its map mobility is frankly pathetic nowadays. Portal aint what it used to be.

    I literally just used the Assassin Signet burst combo on the medium target golem and those were the numbers I got and used when making that post.

    I did the same thing, but only to check the damage ratios. Though that being said, I did the same thing, and my backstab did not exceed 6.5k, so Im not sure where you got 9k from.

    I get 9k from being hit by them.

    In that case you must be playing glass, they must be playing glass (so Berserker instead of Marauder and Scholar instead of Eagle, and quite possibly dropping SA for CS. Because otherwise, 9k isnt achievable.

    https://imgur.com/a/MxS1UWE
    First dps log on rabid amu undead runes, needless to say he is almost dead anyway?
    The second on marauder pistol 5+2 into BS.
    3rd on marauder without hs'ing into backstab.
    Isnt achievable ? Really?

    Ok Im not sure what Im seeing here, but just to start, how the hell do you have that much variance on the damage. If 2 and 3 are on the same target (which it seems to be), then there is no way your backstab should be doing nearly twice the damage. The same is true for steal, that one is fluctuating way too hard as well. Did they just take off their armour to lower their defense stat? Because the second one, the 6.6k damage is what you should be expecting. And 11k is just not doable without taking off armour .

    If you have EYES you can see that salad with ARMOR on. I even shown you my traitlines Im running. Fresh screen of backstabbing DAREDEVIL, see the same link, added 1 more screen 10k on medium armored target, enjoy. Feel free to accuse me in photoshoping, in paint xD

    What I can see is Damage Number Fluctuations that arent possible. Damage in GW2 does fluctuate, but only by 10% at max. Yours fluctuated by 20-50%. Something isnt right. In fact, I can even show that using the medium golem, and the damage formula. So in essence, the way damage works is its your total damage (which is a more complicated formula I wont get into here), divided by your Armor, which is equivalent to your Defense + your Toughness. Light Classes have 1924 Armor by default, while medium have 2029. The Medium Target Golem has 2322 (turns out I was slightly incorrect, its less damage than on glass, but more damage than on tankier builds). So then, how much damage does the Medium Target Golem take? Well, this much. 5.9-6.9k. So, how much damage does that translate to for the other classes? Thankfully, the math is easy. We take 5.9k-6.9k, multiply it with 2322, then divide it by their armor. For Medium, thats 5900*2322/2024=6768 to 6900*2322/2024=7915. For Light, its 5900*2322/1924=7.12k to 6900*2322/1924=8327. Note that even the higher end of damage fluctuation doesnt reach 9k. So, how exactly did you get over 10k?

    Obviously I'm using assasins signet? Give me 500g(for my efforts to make and upload it) and I will make a video instead of screenshots, deal ? ;)

    And if you looked at my screenshots, obviously I am using Assassin's Signet as well. Thats where I got my numbers from. And still, the damage doesnt add up. Yours is a lot higher than is at all possible. You would need some kind of additional damage multipliers to reach the damage youre getting, or an armor value below minimum. I cant tell which it is, but I can tell that it is one of those.

    Mr.thicchead. I'm stabbing real players, not golems with overblown armor values? My backstab on the golem is the same as yours. (p.s I dont have eagle rune, its scholar, just in case you are lost there)

    Something Im accounting for, thats why I take the golem damage, and show what the highest possible player damage is. Their "overblown armor values" are only 15% higher than that of real players. Which means that players only take 15% more damage than the golems. Yet somehow in your case players are taking 50% more damage. So if your damage on golems is the same, then that means that something was up with the players. But, just to be sure, I used that little arena in Heart of the Mists to test it. Even when I was targetting a glass thief. Even with me stacking up Lead Attack and them being below 50% turning on both the Eagle and Executioner damage multiplier (I dont like Improvisation much). Even with all of that, I only managed to crack 9k. Even if you switched the thief for a Mes (which adds about 5% damage), thats still only 9.4k. And thats the absolute maximum ceiling you can get, short of shenanigans. Yet somehow, you managed to exceed that ceiling without even having the 20% damage multiplier from Executioner. Thats just literally not possible without shenanigans.

  • Odik.4587Odik.4587 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    So let me get this strait here. Thief right now can do a huge burst with dp and follow up with said current dps. After patch the burst is getting lowered as a classes are but hp and toughness remain the same leading to longer fights which thief doesnt really excell at but things are going to be the same cuz the dps nerfs were blanket?
    I could see if base hp and tough ess were taking hits but as far as I know their not which is a significant factor no?

    Perma stealth build that is currently bursting for 14-16k damage from stealth is going down to 12-14k in a balance patch where healing, protection, mobility, and active mitigation for everyone else is getting nerfed by 30-60%. Thief players think their class is being over nerfed.

    I dont know where you got this idea of 14-16k bursts, but D/P does not burst nearly that hard. Hell it doesnt even burst for 12-14k right now. It bursts for 7-8k. Which goes down to 4.5-5.5k burst. On a super glassy build with minimal defenses and very low DPS after the initial burst. I dont know why you think its getting away lightly, when in truth, its probably getting hit worse than most builds. Because not all damage reductions are equal. A burst build gets a lot worse after a 30% damage reduction than a bunker build or a skirmisher build.

    It's not just Backstab.

    I've seen backstab hit for anywhere between 6-9k damage on a crit. This is overlapped with Mug for 2.5k damage multicasted on top of the burst. Both of these proc Leeching Venoms if they've stacked in stealth, which they almost certainly have. This adds up to another 1k damage. Backstab also procs Shadow Siphoning for another 600 damage. Both parts of the double strike come out in 0.25 seconds after the backstab+mug combo. These will both do about 1.1k+1.1k damage. These will also both proc Leeching Venoms for another 1k damage.

    6-9000+2,500+600+1000+1100+1100+1000 =13,300-16,300 damage with even less of a tell than a mesmer greatsword burst.

    Ok Im gonna have to correct your damage on several points here. First, Backstab will usually hit in the 5-7k area. 9k is on glass builds, and we dont have many of those in the meta. Second, if Backstab is hitting for 6-9k, Mug is not hitting for 2.5k. Itll be hitting for about 1.5-2k. Leeching Venoms will only hit for 800, and Double Strike is a lot slower (Total time for attack sequence is once every 1.68 seconds, indicating that double strike, which takes up about 30%, is about half a second), and hits less hard (It hits for exactly 1/4 of backstabs damage in total, so if backstab is hitting for 5-7k, itll be hitting for 1.25k-1.75k).

    So if we adjust the damage properly, its 5000-7000+1500+500+800+1250-1750+800=9850-12350 damage. And thats with me using the higher values for Leeching Venom, Mug and Shadow Siphoning. Not a big difference though. And thats if you include Double Strike in the burst which personally I dont, but youre free to, thats a matter of opinion.

    And now, to compare it to GS burst from Mesmer. First, it doesnt have less of a tell, because both of them have the same tell. None. In both cases the entire damage of the burst happens out of stealth in .2 seconds, which is faster than human reaction time (and in the case of Mesmer might or might not be backed up by a stun). Now of course, GS burst is a lot higher. Thats not surprising, GS burst has a longer cooldown and requires more time between attempts, so it has to. Mind you, its not the bursts damage or the ability to react to it that has made Shatter Mesmer fall off. Its the fact that its map mobility is frankly pathetic nowadays. Portal aint what it used to be.

    I literally just used the Assassin Signet burst combo on the medium target golem and those were the numbers I got and used when making that post.

    I did the same thing, but only to check the damage ratios. Though that being said, I did the same thing, and my backstab did not exceed 6.5k, so Im not sure where you got 9k from.

    I get 9k from being hit by them.

    In that case you must be playing glass, they must be playing glass (so Berserker instead of Marauder and Scholar instead of Eagle, and quite possibly dropping SA for CS. Because otherwise, 9k isnt achievable.

    https://imgur.com/a/MxS1UWE
    First dps log on rabid amu undead runes, needless to say he is almost dead anyway?
    The second on marauder pistol 5+2 into BS.
    3rd on marauder without hs'ing into backstab.
    Isnt achievable ? Really?

    Ok Im not sure what Im seeing here, but just to start, how the hell do you have that much variance on the damage. If 2 and 3 are on the same target (which it seems to be), then there is no way your backstab should be doing nearly twice the damage. The same is true for steal, that one is fluctuating way too hard as well. Did they just take off their armour to lower their defense stat? Because the second one, the 6.6k damage is what you should be expecting. And 11k is just not doable without taking off armour .

    If you have EYES you can see that salad with ARMOR on. I even shown you my traitlines Im running. Fresh screen of backstabbing DAREDEVIL, see the same link, added 1 more screen 10k on medium armored target, enjoy. Feel free to accuse me in photoshoping, in paint xD

    What I can see is Damage Number Fluctuations that arent possible. Damage in GW2 does fluctuate, but only by 10% at max. Yours fluctuated by 20-50%. Something isnt right. In fact, I can even show that using the medium golem, and the damage formula. So in essence, the way damage works is its your total damage (which is a more complicated formula I wont get into here), divided by your Armor, which is equivalent to your Defense + your Toughness. Light Classes have 1924 Armor by default, while medium have 2029. The Medium Target Golem has 2322 (turns out I was slightly incorrect, its less damage than on glass, but more damage than on tankier builds). So then, how much damage does the Medium Target Golem take? Well, this much. 5.9-6.9k. So, how much damage does that translate to for the other classes? Thankfully, the math is easy. We take 5.9k-6.9k, multiply it with 2322, then divide it by their armor. For Medium, thats 5900*2322/2024=6768 to 6900*2322/2024=7915. For Light, its 5900*2322/1924=7.12k to 6900*2322/1924=8327. Note that even the higher end of damage fluctuation doesnt reach 9k. So, how exactly did you get over 10k?

    Obviously I'm using assasins signet? Give me 500g(for my efforts to make and upload it) and I will make a video instead of screenshots, deal ? ;)

    And if you looked at my screenshots, obviously I am using Assassin's Signet as well. Thats where I got my numbers from. And still, the damage doesnt add up. Yours is a lot higher than is at all possible. You would need some kind of additional damage multipliers to reach the damage youre getting, or an armor value below minimum. I cant tell which it is, but I can tell that it is one of those.

    Mr.thicchead. I'm stabbing real players, not golems with overblown armor values? My backstab on the golem is the same as yours. (p.s I dont have eagle rune, its scholar, just in case you are lost there)

    Something Im accounting for, thats why I take the golem damage, and show what the highest possible player damage is. Their "overblown armor values" are only 15% higher than that of real players. Which means that players only take 15% more damage than the golems. Yet somehow in your case players are taking 50% more damage. So if your damage on golems is the same, then that means that something was up with the players. But, just to be sure, I used that little arena in Heart of the Mists to test it. Even when I was targetting a glass thief. Even with me stacking up Lead Attack and them being below 50% turning on both the Eagle and Executioner damage multiplier (I dont like Improvisation much). Even with all of that, I only managed to crack 9k. Even if you switched the thief for a Mes (which adds about 5% damage), thats still only 9.4k. And thats the absolute maximum ceiling you can get, short of shenanigans. Yet somehow, you managed to exceed that ceiling without even having the 20% damage multiplier from Executioner. Thats just literally not possible without shenanigans.

    Lol, you could actually see that in all this cases I was engaged in combat from using pistol 5 into HS which proc'd lead attacks. Pistol5+hs=9 stacks.
    You could see that was on the screen too.
    Not like I really thought about lead attacks at that moment, he just asked me to do exact that combo and see if he still would be alive (situation with drd was the same). Would you reject the fact that is perfectly doable in combat? If yes, can we delete it? ;)

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    So let me get this strait here. Thief right now can do a huge burst with dp and follow up with said current dps. After patch the burst is getting lowered as a classes are but hp and toughness remain the same leading to longer fights which thief doesnt really excell at but things are going to be the same cuz the dps nerfs were blanket?
    I could see if base hp and tough ess were taking hits but as far as I know their not which is a significant factor no?

    Perma stealth build that is currently bursting for 14-16k damage from stealth is going down to 12-14k in a balance patch where healing, protection, mobility, and active mitigation for everyone else is getting nerfed by 30-60%. Thief players think their class is being over nerfed.

    I dont know where you got this idea of 14-16k bursts, but D/P does not burst nearly that hard. Hell it doesnt even burst for 12-14k right now. It bursts for 7-8k. Which goes down to 4.5-5.5k burst. On a super glassy build with minimal defenses and very low DPS after the initial burst. I dont know why you think its getting away lightly, when in truth, its probably getting hit worse than most builds. Because not all damage reductions are equal. A burst build gets a lot worse after a 30% damage reduction than a bunker build or a skirmisher build.

    It's not just Backstab.

    I've seen backstab hit for anywhere between 6-9k damage on a crit. This is overlapped with Mug for 2.5k damage multicasted on top of the burst. Both of these proc Leeching Venoms if they've stacked in stealth, which they almost certainly have. This adds up to another 1k damage. Backstab also procs Shadow Siphoning for another 600 damage. Both parts of the double strike come out in 0.25 seconds after the backstab+mug combo. These will both do about 1.1k+1.1k damage. These will also both proc Leeching Venoms for another 1k damage.

    6-9000+2,500+600+1000+1100+1100+1000 =13,300-16,300 damage with even less of a tell than a mesmer greatsword burst.

    Ok Im gonna have to correct your damage on several points here. First, Backstab will usually hit in the 5-7k area. 9k is on glass builds, and we dont have many of those in the meta. Second, if Backstab is hitting for 6-9k, Mug is not hitting for 2.5k. Itll be hitting for about 1.5-2k. Leeching Venoms will only hit for 800, and Double Strike is a lot slower (Total time for attack sequence is once every 1.68 seconds, indicating that double strike, which takes up about 30%, is about half a second), and hits less hard (It hits for exactly 1/4 of backstabs damage in total, so if backstab is hitting for 5-7k, itll be hitting for 1.25k-1.75k).

    So if we adjust the damage properly, its 5000-7000+1500+500+800+1250-1750+800=9850-12350 damage. And thats with me using the higher values for Leeching Venom, Mug and Shadow Siphoning. Not a big difference though. And thats if you include Double Strike in the burst which personally I dont, but youre free to, thats a matter of opinion.

    And now, to compare it to GS burst from Mesmer. First, it doesnt have less of a tell, because both of them have the same tell. None. In both cases the entire damage of the burst happens out of stealth in .2 seconds, which is faster than human reaction time (and in the case of Mesmer might or might not be backed up by a stun). Now of course, GS burst is a lot higher. Thats not surprising, GS burst has a longer cooldown and requires more time between attempts, so it has to. Mind you, its not the bursts damage or the ability to react to it that has made Shatter Mesmer fall off. Its the fact that its map mobility is frankly pathetic nowadays. Portal aint what it used to be.

    I literally just used the Assassin Signet burst combo on the medium target golem and those were the numbers I got and used when making that post.

    I did the same thing, but only to check the damage ratios. Though that being said, I did the same thing, and my backstab did not exceed 6.5k, so Im not sure where you got 9k from.

    I get 9k from being hit by them.

    In that case you must be playing glass, they must be playing glass (so Berserker instead of Marauder and Scholar instead of Eagle, and quite possibly dropping SA for CS. Because otherwise, 9k isnt achievable.

    https://imgur.com/a/MxS1UWE
    First dps log on rabid amu undead runes, needless to say he is almost dead anyway?
    The second on marauder pistol 5+2 into BS.
    3rd on marauder without hs'ing into backstab.
    Isnt achievable ? Really?

    Ok Im not sure what Im seeing here, but just to start, how the hell do you have that much variance on the damage. If 2 and 3 are on the same target (which it seems to be), then there is no way your backstab should be doing nearly twice the damage. The same is true for steal, that one is fluctuating way too hard as well. Did they just take off their armour to lower their defense stat? Because the second one, the 6.6k damage is what you should be expecting. And 11k is just not doable without taking off armour .

    If you have EYES you can see that salad with ARMOR on. I even shown you my traitlines Im running. Fresh screen of backstabbing DAREDEVIL, see the same link, added 1 more screen 10k on medium armored target, enjoy. Feel free to accuse me in photoshoping, in paint xD

    What I can see is Damage Number Fluctuations that arent possible. Damage in GW2 does fluctuate, but only by 10% at max. Yours fluctuated by 20-50%. Something isnt right. In fact, I can even show that using the medium golem, and the damage formula. So in essence, the way damage works is its your total damage (which is a more complicated formula I wont get into here), divided by your Armor, which is equivalent to your Defense + your Toughness. Light Classes have 1924 Armor by default, while medium have 2029. The Medium Target Golem has 2322 (turns out I was slightly incorrect, its less damage than on glass, but more damage than on tankier builds). So then, how much damage does the Medium Target Golem take? Well, this much. 5.9-6.9k. So, how much damage does that translate to for the other classes? Thankfully, the math is easy. We take 5.9k-6.9k, multiply it with 2322, then divide it by their armor. For Medium, thats 5900*2322/2024=6768 to 6900*2322/2024=7915. For Light, its 5900*2322/1924=7.12k to 6900*2322/1924=8327. Note that even the higher end of damage fluctuation doesnt reach 9k. So, how exactly did you get over 10k?

    Obviously I'm using assasins signet? Give me 500g(for my efforts to make and upload it) and I will make a video instead of screenshots, deal ? ;)

    And if you looked at my screenshots, obviously I am using Assassin's Signet as well. Thats where I got my numbers from. And still, the damage doesnt add up. Yours is a lot higher than is at all possible. You would need some kind of additional damage multipliers to reach the damage youre getting, or an armor value below minimum. I cant tell which it is, but I can tell that it is one of those.

    Mr.thicchead. I'm stabbing real players, not golems with overblown armor values? My backstab on the golem is the same as yours. (p.s I dont have eagle rune, its scholar, just in case you are lost there)

    Something Im accounting for, thats why I take the golem damage, and show what the highest possible player damage is. Their "overblown armor values" are only 15% higher than that of real players. Which means that players only take 15% more damage than the golems. Yet somehow in your case players are taking 50% more damage. So if your damage on golems is the same, then that means that something was up with the players. But, just to be sure, I used that little arena in Heart of the Mists to test it. Even when I was targetting a glass thief. Even with me stacking up Lead Attack and them being below 50% turning on both the Eagle and Executioner damage multiplier (I dont like Improvisation much). Even with all of that, I only managed to crack 9k. Even if you switched the thief for a Mes (which adds about 5% damage), thats still only 9.4k. And thats the absolute maximum ceiling you can get, short of shenanigans. Yet somehow, you managed to exceed that ceiling without even having the 20% damage multiplier from Executioner. Thats just literally not possible without shenanigans.

    Lol, you could actually see that in all this cases I was engaged in combat from using pistol 5 into HS which proc'd lead attacks. Pistol5+hs=9 stacks.
    You could see that was on the screen too.

    Which is 9% extra damage. Which would even fail to make up for the 20% damage from executioner and 5% damage from Eagle over Scholar. That is, if I didnt stack for more than 9 lead attack stacks. Which still leaves us with the same issue. You did considerably more damage than I did while having considerably lower damage multipliers overall. Which, again, not really possible. Not without Shenanigans at least.

  • Odik.4587Odik.4587 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    So let me get this strait here. Thief right now can do a huge burst with dp and follow up with said current dps. After patch the burst is getting lowered as a classes are but hp and toughness remain the same leading to longer fights which thief doesnt really excell at but things are going to be the same cuz the dps nerfs were blanket?
    I could see if base hp and tough ess were taking hits but as far as I know their not which is a significant factor no?

    Perma stealth build that is currently bursting for 14-16k damage from stealth is going down to 12-14k in a balance patch where healing, protection, mobility, and active mitigation for everyone else is getting nerfed by 30-60%. Thief players think their class is being over nerfed.

    I dont know where you got this idea of 14-16k bursts, but D/P does not burst nearly that hard. Hell it doesnt even burst for 12-14k right now. It bursts for 7-8k. Which goes down to 4.5-5.5k burst. On a super glassy build with minimal defenses and very low DPS after the initial burst. I dont know why you think its getting away lightly, when in truth, its probably getting hit worse than most builds. Because not all damage reductions are equal. A burst build gets a lot worse after a 30% damage reduction than a bunker build or a skirmisher build.

    It's not just Backstab.

    I've seen backstab hit for anywhere between 6-9k damage on a crit. This is overlapped with Mug for 2.5k damage multicasted on top of the burst. Both of these proc Leeching Venoms if they've stacked in stealth, which they almost certainly have. This adds up to another 1k damage. Backstab also procs Shadow Siphoning for another 600 damage. Both parts of the double strike come out in 0.25 seconds after the backstab+mug combo. These will both do about 1.1k+1.1k damage. These will also both proc Leeching Venoms for another 1k damage.

    6-9000+2,500+600+1000+1100+1100+1000 =13,300-16,300 damage with even less of a tell than a mesmer greatsword burst.

    Ok Im gonna have to correct your damage on several points here. First, Backstab will usually hit in the 5-7k area. 9k is on glass builds, and we dont have many of those in the meta. Second, if Backstab is hitting for 6-9k, Mug is not hitting for 2.5k. Itll be hitting for about 1.5-2k. Leeching Venoms will only hit for 800, and Double Strike is a lot slower (Total time for attack sequence is once every 1.68 seconds, indicating that double strike, which takes up about 30%, is about half a second), and hits less hard (It hits for exactly 1/4 of backstabs damage in total, so if backstab is hitting for 5-7k, itll be hitting for 1.25k-1.75k).

    So if we adjust the damage properly, its 5000-7000+1500+500+800+1250-1750+800=9850-12350 damage. And thats with me using the higher values for Leeching Venom, Mug and Shadow Siphoning. Not a big difference though. And thats if you include Double Strike in the burst which personally I dont, but youre free to, thats a matter of opinion.

    And now, to compare it to GS burst from Mesmer. First, it doesnt have less of a tell, because both of them have the same tell. None. In both cases the entire damage of the burst happens out of stealth in .2 seconds, which is faster than human reaction time (and in the case of Mesmer might or might not be backed up by a stun). Now of course, GS burst is a lot higher. Thats not surprising, GS burst has a longer cooldown and requires more time between attempts, so it has to. Mind you, its not the bursts damage or the ability to react to it that has made Shatter Mesmer fall off. Its the fact that its map mobility is frankly pathetic nowadays. Portal aint what it used to be.

    I literally just used the Assassin Signet burst combo on the medium target golem and those were the numbers I got and used when making that post.

    I did the same thing, but only to check the damage ratios. Though that being said, I did the same thing, and my backstab did not exceed 6.5k, so Im not sure where you got 9k from.

    I get 9k from being hit by them.

    In that case you must be playing glass, they must be playing glass (so Berserker instead of Marauder and Scholar instead of Eagle, and quite possibly dropping SA for CS. Because otherwise, 9k isnt achievable.

    https://imgur.com/a/MxS1UWE
    First dps log on rabid amu undead runes, needless to say he is almost dead anyway?
    The second on marauder pistol 5+2 into BS.
    3rd on marauder without hs'ing into backstab.
    Isnt achievable ? Really?

    Ok Im not sure what Im seeing here, but just to start, how the hell do you have that much variance on the damage. If 2 and 3 are on the same target (which it seems to be), then there is no way your backstab should be doing nearly twice the damage. The same is true for steal, that one is fluctuating way too hard as well. Did they just take off their armour to lower their defense stat? Because the second one, the 6.6k damage is what you should be expecting. And 11k is just not doable without taking off armour .

    If you have EYES you can see that salad with ARMOR on. I even shown you my traitlines Im running. Fresh screen of backstabbing DAREDEVIL, see the same link, added 1 more screen 10k on medium armored target, enjoy. Feel free to accuse me in photoshoping, in paint xD

    What I can see is Damage Number Fluctuations that arent possible. Damage in GW2 does fluctuate, but only by 10% at max. Yours fluctuated by 20-50%. Something isnt right. In fact, I can even show that using the medium golem, and the damage formula. So in essence, the way damage works is its your total damage (which is a more complicated formula I wont get into here), divided by your Armor, which is equivalent to your Defense + your Toughness. Light Classes have 1924 Armor by default, while medium have 2029. The Medium Target Golem has 2322 (turns out I was slightly incorrect, its less damage than on glass, but more damage than on tankier builds). So then, how much damage does the Medium Target Golem take? Well, this much. 5.9-6.9k. So, how much damage does that translate to for the other classes? Thankfully, the math is easy. We take 5.9k-6.9k, multiply it with 2322, then divide it by their armor. For Medium, thats 5900*2322/2024=6768 to 6900*2322/2024=7915. For Light, its 5900*2322/1924=7.12k to 6900*2322/1924=8327. Note that even the higher end of damage fluctuation doesnt reach 9k. So, how exactly did you get over 10k?

    Obviously I'm using assasins signet? Give me 500g(for my efforts to make and upload it) and I will make a video instead of screenshots, deal ? ;)

    And if you looked at my screenshots, obviously I am using Assassin's Signet as well. Thats where I got my numbers from. And still, the damage doesnt add up. Yours is a lot higher than is at all possible. You would need some kind of additional damage multipliers to reach the damage youre getting, or an armor value below minimum. I cant tell which it is, but I can tell that it is one of those.

    Mr.thicchead. I'm stabbing real players, not golems with overblown armor values? My backstab on the golem is the same as yours. (p.s I dont have eagle rune, its scholar, just in case you are lost there)

    Something Im accounting for, thats why I take the golem damage, and show what the highest possible player damage is. Their "overblown armor values" are only 15% higher than that of real players. Which means that players only take 15% more damage than the golems. Yet somehow in your case players are taking 50% more damage. So if your damage on golems is the same, then that means that something was up with the players. But, just to be sure, I used that little arena in Heart of the Mists to test it. Even when I was targetting a glass thief. Even with me stacking up Lead Attack and them being below 50% turning on both the Eagle and Executioner damage multiplier (I dont like Improvisation much). Even with all of that, I only managed to crack 9k. Even if you switched the thief for a Mes (which adds about 5% damage), thats still only 9.4k. And thats the absolute maximum ceiling you can get, short of shenanigans. Yet somehow, you managed to exceed that ceiling without even having the 20% damage multiplier from Executioner. Thats just literally not possible without shenanigans.

    Lol, you could actually see that in all this cases I was engaged in combat from using pistol 5 into HS which proc'd lead attacks. Pistol5+hs=9 stacks.
    You could see that was on the screen too.

    Which is 9% extra damage. Which would even fail to make up for the 20% damage from executioner and 5% damage from Eagle over Scholar. That is, if I didnt stack for more than 9 lead attack stacks. Which still leaves us with the same issue. You did considerably more damage than I did while having considerably lower damage multipliers overall. Which, again, not really possible. Not without Shenanigans at least.

    Weapon strenght isnt fixed number and exactly why damage is inconsistent. Still, 500g and I'm making a video, les go?

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    So let me get this strait here. Thief right now can do a huge burst with dp and follow up with said current dps. After patch the burst is getting lowered as a classes are but hp and toughness remain the same leading to longer fights which thief doesnt really excell at but things are going to be the same cuz the dps nerfs were blanket?
    I could see if base hp and tough ess were taking hits but as far as I know their not which is a significant factor no?

    Perma stealth build that is currently bursting for 14-16k damage from stealth is going down to 12-14k in a balance patch where healing, protection, mobility, and active mitigation for everyone else is getting nerfed by 30-60%. Thief players think their class is being over nerfed.

    I dont know where you got this idea of 14-16k bursts, but D/P does not burst nearly that hard. Hell it doesnt even burst for 12-14k right now. It bursts for 7-8k. Which goes down to 4.5-5.5k burst. On a super glassy build with minimal defenses and very low DPS after the initial burst. I dont know why you think its getting away lightly, when in truth, its probably getting hit worse than most builds. Because not all damage reductions are equal. A burst build gets a lot worse after a 30% damage reduction than a bunker build or a skirmisher build.

    It's not just Backstab.

    I've seen backstab hit for anywhere between 6-9k damage on a crit. This is overlapped with Mug for 2.5k damage multicasted on top of the burst. Both of these proc Leeching Venoms if they've stacked in stealth, which they almost certainly have. This adds up to another 1k damage. Backstab also procs Shadow Siphoning for another 600 damage. Both parts of the double strike come out in 0.25 seconds after the backstab+mug combo. These will both do about 1.1k+1.1k damage. These will also both proc Leeching Venoms for another 1k damage.

    6-9000+2,500+600+1000+1100+1100+1000 =13,300-16,300 damage with even less of a tell than a mesmer greatsword burst.

    Ok Im gonna have to correct your damage on several points here. First, Backstab will usually hit in the 5-7k area. 9k is on glass builds, and we dont have many of those in the meta. Second, if Backstab is hitting for 6-9k, Mug is not hitting for 2.5k. Itll be hitting for about 1.5-2k. Leeching Venoms will only hit for 800, and Double Strike is a lot slower (Total time for attack sequence is once every 1.68 seconds, indicating that double strike, which takes up about 30%, is about half a second), and hits less hard (It hits for exactly 1/4 of backstabs damage in total, so if backstab is hitting for 5-7k, itll be hitting for 1.25k-1.75k).

    So if we adjust the damage properly, its 5000-7000+1500+500+800+1250-1750+800=9850-12350 damage. And thats with me using the higher values for Leeching Venom, Mug and Shadow Siphoning. Not a big difference though. And thats if you include Double Strike in the burst which personally I dont, but youre free to, thats a matter of opinion.

    And now, to compare it to GS burst from Mesmer. First, it doesnt have less of a tell, because both of them have the same tell. None. In both cases the entire damage of the burst happens out of stealth in .2 seconds, which is faster than human reaction time (and in the case of Mesmer might or might not be backed up by a stun). Now of course, GS burst is a lot higher. Thats not surprising, GS burst has a longer cooldown and requires more time between attempts, so it has to. Mind you, its not the bursts damage or the ability to react to it that has made Shatter Mesmer fall off. Its the fact that its map mobility is frankly pathetic nowadays. Portal aint what it used to be.

    I literally just used the Assassin Signet burst combo on the medium target golem and those were the numbers I got and used when making that post.

    I did the same thing, but only to check the damage ratios. Though that being said, I did the same thing, and my backstab did not exceed 6.5k, so Im not sure where you got 9k from.

    I get 9k from being hit by them.

    In that case you must be playing glass, they must be playing glass (so Berserker instead of Marauder and Scholar instead of Eagle, and quite possibly dropping SA for CS. Because otherwise, 9k isnt achievable.

    https://imgur.com/a/MxS1UWE
    First dps log on rabid amu undead runes, needless to say he is almost dead anyway?
    The second on marauder pistol 5+2 into BS.
    3rd on marauder without hs'ing into backstab.
    Isnt achievable ? Really?

    Ok Im not sure what Im seeing here, but just to start, how the hell do you have that much variance on the damage. If 2 and 3 are on the same target (which it seems to be), then there is no way your backstab should be doing nearly twice the damage. The same is true for steal, that one is fluctuating way too hard as well. Did they just take off their armour to lower their defense stat? Because the second one, the 6.6k damage is what you should be expecting. And 11k is just not doable without taking off armour .

    If you have EYES you can see that salad with ARMOR on. I even shown you my traitlines Im running. Fresh screen of backstabbing DAREDEVIL, see the same link, added 1 more screen 10k on medium armored target, enjoy. Feel free to accuse me in photoshoping, in paint xD

    What I can see is Damage Number Fluctuations that arent possible. Damage in GW2 does fluctuate, but only by 10% at max. Yours fluctuated by 20-50%. Something isnt right. In fact, I can even show that using the medium golem, and the damage formula. So in essence, the way damage works is its your total damage (which is a more complicated formula I wont get into here), divided by your Armor, which is equivalent to your Defense + your Toughness. Light Classes have 1924 Armor by default, while medium have 2029. The Medium Target Golem has 2322 (turns out I was slightly incorrect, its less damage than on glass, but more damage than on tankier builds). So then, how much damage does the Medium Target Golem take? Well, this much. 5.9-6.9k. So, how much damage does that translate to for the other classes? Thankfully, the math is easy. We take 5.9k-6.9k, multiply it with 2322, then divide it by their armor. For Medium, thats 5900*2322/2024=6768 to 6900*2322/2024=7915. For Light, its 5900*2322/1924=7.12k to 6900*2322/1924=8327. Note that even the higher end of damage fluctuation doesnt reach 9k. So, how exactly did you get over 10k?

    Obviously I'm using assasins signet? Give me 500g(for my efforts to make and upload it) and I will make a video instead of screenshots, deal ? ;)

    And if you looked at my screenshots, obviously I am using Assassin's Signet as well. Thats where I got my numbers from. And still, the damage doesnt add up. Yours is a lot higher than is at all possible. You would need some kind of additional damage multipliers to reach the damage youre getting, or an armor value below minimum. I cant tell which it is, but I can tell that it is one of those.

    Mr.thicchead. I'm stabbing real players, not golems with overblown armor values? My backstab on the golem is the same as yours. (p.s I dont have eagle rune, its scholar, just in case you are lost there)

    Something Im accounting for, thats why I take the golem damage, and show what the highest possible player damage is. Their "overblown armor values" are only 15% higher than that of real players. Which means that players only take 15% more damage than the golems. Yet somehow in your case players are taking 50% more damage. So if your damage on golems is the same, then that means that something was up with the players. But, just to be sure, I used that little arena in Heart of the Mists to test it. Even when I was targetting a glass thief. Even with me stacking up Lead Attack and them being below 50% turning on both the Eagle and Executioner damage multiplier (I dont like Improvisation much). Even with all of that, I only managed to crack 9k. Even if you switched the thief for a Mes (which adds about 5% damage), thats still only 9.4k. And thats the absolute maximum ceiling you can get, short of shenanigans. Yet somehow, you managed to exceed that ceiling without even having the 20% damage multiplier from Executioner. Thats just literally not possible without shenanigans.

    Lol, you could actually see that in all this cases I was engaged in combat from using pistol 5 into HS which proc'd lead attacks. Pistol5+hs=9 stacks.
    You could see that was on the screen too.

    Which is 9% extra damage. Which would even fail to make up for the 20% damage from executioner and 5% damage from Eagle over Scholar. That is, if I didnt stack for more than 9 lead attack stacks. Which still leaves us with the same issue. You did considerably more damage than I did while having considerably lower damage multipliers overall. Which, again, not really possible. Not without Shenanigans at least.

    Weapon strenght isnt fixed number and exactly why damage is inconsistent. Still, 500g and I'm making a video, les go?

    Correct, it isnt fixed and the damage is inconsistent. It fluctuates by about 5-10%. You still exceeded the highest damage by 20%, while having much lower damage multipliers. So no, thats not it either. Again, the only possibility is Shenanigans. Because otherwise, youre about 40% or so of damage multipliers short.

  • Odik.4587Odik.4587 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    So let me get this strait here. Thief right now can do a huge burst with dp and follow up with said current dps. After patch the burst is getting lowered as a classes are but hp and toughness remain the same leading to longer fights which thief doesnt really excell at but things are going to be the same cuz the dps nerfs were blanket?
    I could see if base hp and tough ess were taking hits but as far as I know their not which is a significant factor no?

    Perma stealth build that is currently bursting for 14-16k damage from stealth is going down to 12-14k in a balance patch where healing, protection, mobility, and active mitigation for everyone else is getting nerfed by 30-60%. Thief players think their class is being over nerfed.

    I dont know where you got this idea of 14-16k bursts, but D/P does not burst nearly that hard. Hell it doesnt even burst for 12-14k right now. It bursts for 7-8k. Which goes down to 4.5-5.5k burst. On a super glassy build with minimal defenses and very low DPS after the initial burst. I dont know why you think its getting away lightly, when in truth, its probably getting hit worse than most builds. Because not all damage reductions are equal. A burst build gets a lot worse after a 30% damage reduction than a bunker build or a skirmisher build.

    It's not just Backstab.

    I've seen backstab hit for anywhere between 6-9k damage on a crit. This is overlapped with Mug for 2.5k damage multicasted on top of the burst. Both of these proc Leeching Venoms if they've stacked in stealth, which they almost certainly have. This adds up to another 1k damage. Backstab also procs Shadow Siphoning for another 600 damage. Both parts of the double strike come out in 0.25 seconds after the backstab+mug combo. These will both do about 1.1k+1.1k damage. These will also both proc Leeching Venoms for another 1k damage.

    6-9000+2,500+600+1000+1100+1100+1000 =13,300-16,300 damage with even less of a tell than a mesmer greatsword burst.

    Ok Im gonna have to correct your damage on several points here. First, Backstab will usually hit in the 5-7k area. 9k is on glass builds, and we dont have many of those in the meta. Second, if Backstab is hitting for 6-9k, Mug is not hitting for 2.5k. Itll be hitting for about 1.5-2k. Leeching Venoms will only hit for 800, and Double Strike is a lot slower (Total time for attack sequence is once every 1.68 seconds, indicating that double strike, which takes up about 30%, is about half a second), and hits less hard (It hits for exactly 1/4 of backstabs damage in total, so if backstab is hitting for 5-7k, itll be hitting for 1.25k-1.75k).

    So if we adjust the damage properly, its 5000-7000+1500+500+800+1250-1750+800=9850-12350 damage. And thats with me using the higher values for Leeching Venom, Mug and Shadow Siphoning. Not a big difference though. And thats if you include Double Strike in the burst which personally I dont, but youre free to, thats a matter of opinion.

    And now, to compare it to GS burst from Mesmer. First, it doesnt have less of a tell, because both of them have the same tell. None. In both cases the entire damage of the burst happens out of stealth in .2 seconds, which is faster than human reaction time (and in the case of Mesmer might or might not be backed up by a stun). Now of course, GS burst is a lot higher. Thats not surprising, GS burst has a longer cooldown and requires more time between attempts, so it has to. Mind you, its not the bursts damage or the ability to react to it that has made Shatter Mesmer fall off. Its the fact that its map mobility is frankly pathetic nowadays. Portal aint what it used to be.

    I literally just used the Assassin Signet burst combo on the medium target golem and those were the numbers I got and used when making that post.

    I did the same thing, but only to check the damage ratios. Though that being said, I did the same thing, and my backstab did not exceed 6.5k, so Im not sure where you got 9k from.

    I get 9k from being hit by them.

    In that case you must be playing glass, they must be playing glass (so Berserker instead of Marauder and Scholar instead of Eagle, and quite possibly dropping SA for CS. Because otherwise, 9k isnt achievable.

    https://imgur.com/a/MxS1UWE
    First dps log on rabid amu undead runes, needless to say he is almost dead anyway?
    The second on marauder pistol 5+2 into BS.
    3rd on marauder without hs'ing into backstab.
    Isnt achievable ? Really?

    Ok Im not sure what Im seeing here, but just to start, how the hell do you have that much variance on the damage. If 2 and 3 are on the same target (which it seems to be), then there is no way your backstab should be doing nearly twice the damage. The same is true for steal, that one is fluctuating way too hard as well. Did they just take off their armour to lower their defense stat? Because the second one, the 6.6k damage is what you should be expecting. And 11k is just not doable without taking off armour .

    If you have EYES you can see that salad with ARMOR on. I even shown you my traitlines Im running. Fresh screen of backstabbing DAREDEVIL, see the same link, added 1 more screen 10k on medium armored target, enjoy. Feel free to accuse me in photoshoping, in paint xD

    What I can see is Damage Number Fluctuations that arent possible. Damage in GW2 does fluctuate, but only by 10% at max. Yours fluctuated by 20-50%. Something isnt right. In fact, I can even show that using the medium golem, and the damage formula. So in essence, the way damage works is its your total damage (which is a more complicated formula I wont get into here), divided by your Armor, which is equivalent to your Defense + your Toughness. Light Classes have 1924 Armor by default, while medium have 2029. The Medium Target Golem has 2322 (turns out I was slightly incorrect, its less damage than on glass, but more damage than on tankier builds). So then, how much damage does the Medium Target Golem take? Well, this much. 5.9-6.9k. So, how much damage does that translate to for the other classes? Thankfully, the math is easy. We take 5.9k-6.9k, multiply it with 2322, then divide it by their armor. For Medium, thats 5900*2322/2024=6768 to 6900*2322/2024=7915. For Light, its 5900*2322/1924=7.12k to 6900*2322/1924=8327. Note that even the higher end of damage fluctuation doesnt reach 9k. So, how exactly did you get over 10k?

    Obviously I'm using assasins signet? Give me 500g(for my efforts to make and upload it) and I will make a video instead of screenshots, deal ? ;)

    And if you looked at my screenshots, obviously I am using Assassin's Signet as well. Thats where I got my numbers from. And still, the damage doesnt add up. Yours is a lot higher than is at all possible. You would need some kind of additional damage multipliers to reach the damage youre getting, or an armor value below minimum. I cant tell which it is, but I can tell that it is one of those.

    Mr.thicchead. I'm stabbing real players, not golems with overblown armor values? My backstab on the golem is the same as yours. (p.s I dont have eagle rune, its scholar, just in case you are lost there)

    Something Im accounting for, thats why I take the golem damage, and show what the highest possible player damage is. Their "overblown armor values" are only 15% higher than that of real players. Which means that players only take 15% more damage than the golems. Yet somehow in your case players are taking 50% more damage. So if your damage on golems is the same, then that means that something was up with the players. But, just to be sure, I used that little arena in Heart of the Mists to test it. Even when I was targetting a glass thief. Even with me stacking up Lead Attack and them being below 50% turning on both the Eagle and Executioner damage multiplier (I dont like Improvisation much). Even with all of that, I only managed to crack 9k. Even if you switched the thief for a Mes (which adds about 5% damage), thats still only 9.4k. And thats the absolute maximum ceiling you can get, short of shenanigans. Yet somehow, you managed to exceed that ceiling without even having the 20% damage multiplier from Executioner. Thats just literally not possible without shenanigans.

    Lol, you could actually see that in all this cases I was engaged in combat from using pistol 5 into HS which proc'd lead attacks. Pistol5+hs=9 stacks.
    You could see that was on the screen too.

    Which is 9% extra damage. Which would even fail to make up for the 20% damage from executioner and 5% damage from Eagle over Scholar. That is, if I didnt stack for more than 9 lead attack stacks. Which still leaves us with the same issue. You did considerably more damage than I did while having considerably lower damage multipliers overall. Which, again, not really possible. Not without Shenanigans at least.

    Weapon strenght isnt fixed number and exactly why damage is inconsistent. Still, 500g and I'm making a video, les go?

    Correct, it isnt fixed and the damage is inconsistent. It fluctuates by about 5-10%. You still exceeded the highest damage by 20%, while having much lower damage multipliers. So no, thats not it either. Again, the only possibility is Shenanigans. Because otherwise, youre about 40% or so of damage multipliers short.

    So, basically, after showing you that the mesmer I asked have armor (which you can see, unless you are blind) and stabbed with meta build = being accused in lying ? How does it even work?

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    So let me get this strait here. Thief right now can do a huge burst with dp and follow up with said current dps. After patch the burst is getting lowered as a classes are but hp and toughness remain the same leading to longer fights which thief doesnt really excell at but things are going to be the same cuz the dps nerfs were blanket?
    I could see if base hp and tough ess were taking hits but as far as I know their not which is a significant factor no?

    Perma stealth build that is currently bursting for 14-16k damage from stealth is going down to 12-14k in a balance patch where healing, protection, mobility, and active mitigation for everyone else is getting nerfed by 30-60%. Thief players think their class is being over nerfed.

    I dont know where you got this idea of 14-16k bursts, but D/P does not burst nearly that hard. Hell it doesnt even burst for 12-14k right now. It bursts for 7-8k. Which goes down to 4.5-5.5k burst. On a super glassy build with minimal defenses and very low DPS after the initial burst. I dont know why you think its getting away lightly, when in truth, its probably getting hit worse than most builds. Because not all damage reductions are equal. A burst build gets a lot worse after a 30% damage reduction than a bunker build or a skirmisher build.

    It's not just Backstab.

    I've seen backstab hit for anywhere between 6-9k damage on a crit. This is overlapped with Mug for 2.5k damage multicasted on top of the burst. Both of these proc Leeching Venoms if they've stacked in stealth, which they almost certainly have. This adds up to another 1k damage. Backstab also procs Shadow Siphoning for another 600 damage. Both parts of the double strike come out in 0.25 seconds after the backstab+mug combo. These will both do about 1.1k+1.1k damage. These will also both proc Leeching Venoms for another 1k damage.

    6-9000+2,500+600+1000+1100+1100+1000 =13,300-16,300 damage with even less of a tell than a mesmer greatsword burst.

    Ok Im gonna have to correct your damage on several points here. First, Backstab will usually hit in the 5-7k area. 9k is on glass builds, and we dont have many of those in the meta. Second, if Backstab is hitting for 6-9k, Mug is not hitting for 2.5k. Itll be hitting for about 1.5-2k. Leeching Venoms will only hit for 800, and Double Strike is a lot slower (Total time for attack sequence is once every 1.68 seconds, indicating that double strike, which takes up about 30%, is about half a second), and hits less hard (It hits for exactly 1/4 of backstabs damage in total, so if backstab is hitting for 5-7k, itll be hitting for 1.25k-1.75k).

    So if we adjust the damage properly, its 5000-7000+1500+500+800+1250-1750+800=9850-12350 damage. And thats with me using the higher values for Leeching Venom, Mug and Shadow Siphoning. Not a big difference though. And thats if you include Double Strike in the burst which personally I dont, but youre free to, thats a matter of opinion.

    And now, to compare it to GS burst from Mesmer. First, it doesnt have less of a tell, because both of them have the same tell. None. In both cases the entire damage of the burst happens out of stealth in .2 seconds, which is faster than human reaction time (and in the case of Mesmer might or might not be backed up by a stun). Now of course, GS burst is a lot higher. Thats not surprising, GS burst has a longer cooldown and requires more time between attempts, so it has to. Mind you, its not the bursts damage or the ability to react to it that has made Shatter Mesmer fall off. Its the fact that its map mobility is frankly pathetic nowadays. Portal aint what it used to be.

    I literally just used the Assassin Signet burst combo on the medium target golem and those were the numbers I got and used when making that post.

    I did the same thing, but only to check the damage ratios. Though that being said, I did the same thing, and my backstab did not exceed 6.5k, so Im not sure where you got 9k from.

    I get 9k from being hit by them.

    In that case you must be playing glass, they must be playing glass (so Berserker instead of Marauder and Scholar instead of Eagle, and quite possibly dropping SA for CS. Because otherwise, 9k isnt achievable.

    https://imgur.com/a/MxS1UWE
    First dps log on rabid amu undead runes, needless to say he is almost dead anyway?
    The second on marauder pistol 5+2 into BS.
    3rd on marauder without hs'ing into backstab.
    Isnt achievable ? Really?

    Ok Im not sure what Im seeing here, but just to start, how the hell do you have that much variance on the damage. If 2 and 3 are on the same target (which it seems to be), then there is no way your backstab should be doing nearly twice the damage. The same is true for steal, that one is fluctuating way too hard as well. Did they just take off their armour to lower their defense stat? Because the second one, the 6.6k damage is what you should be expecting. And 11k is just not doable without taking off armour .

    If you have EYES you can see that salad with ARMOR on. I even shown you my traitlines Im running. Fresh screen of backstabbing DAREDEVIL, see the same link, added 1 more screen 10k on medium armored target, enjoy. Feel free to accuse me in photoshoping, in paint xD

    What I can see is Damage Number Fluctuations that arent possible. Damage in GW2 does fluctuate, but only by 10% at max. Yours fluctuated by 20-50%. Something isnt right. In fact, I can even show that using the medium golem, and the damage formula. So in essence, the way damage works is its your total damage (which is a more complicated formula I wont get into here), divided by your Armor, which is equivalent to your Defense + your Toughness. Light Classes have 1924 Armor by default, while medium have 2029. The Medium Target Golem has 2322 (turns out I was slightly incorrect, its less damage than on glass, but more damage than on tankier builds). So then, how much damage does the Medium Target Golem take? Well, this much. 5.9-6.9k. So, how much damage does that translate to for the other classes? Thankfully, the math is easy. We take 5.9k-6.9k, multiply it with 2322, then divide it by their armor. For Medium, thats 5900*2322/2024=6768 to 6900*2322/2024=7915. For Light, its 5900*2322/1924=7.12k to 6900*2322/1924=8327. Note that even the higher end of damage fluctuation doesnt reach 9k. So, how exactly did you get over 10k?

    Obviously I'm using assasins signet? Give me 500g(for my efforts to make and upload it) and I will make a video instead of screenshots, deal ? ;)

    And if you looked at my screenshots, obviously I am using Assassin's Signet as well. Thats where I got my numbers from. And still, the damage doesnt add up. Yours is a lot higher than is at all possible. You would need some kind of additional damage multipliers to reach the damage youre getting, or an armor value below minimum. I cant tell which it is, but I can tell that it is one of those.

    Mr.thicchead. I'm stabbing real players, not golems with overblown armor values? My backstab on the golem is the same as yours. (p.s I dont have eagle rune, its scholar, just in case you are lost there)

    Something Im accounting for, thats why I take the golem damage, and show what the highest possible player damage is. Their "overblown armor values" are only 15% higher than that of real players. Which means that players only take 15% more damage than the golems. Yet somehow in your case players are taking 50% more damage. So if your damage on golems is the same, then that means that something was up with the players. But, just to be sure, I used that little arena in Heart of the Mists to test it. Even when I was targetting a glass thief. Even with me stacking up Lead Attack and them being below 50% turning on both the Eagle and Executioner damage multiplier (I dont like Improvisation much). Even with all of that, I only managed to crack 9k. Even if you switched the thief for a Mes (which adds about 5% damage), thats still only 9.4k. And thats the absolute maximum ceiling you can get, short of shenanigans. Yet somehow, you managed to exceed that ceiling without even having the 20% damage multiplier from Executioner. Thats just literally not possible without shenanigans.

    Lol, you could actually see that in all this cases I was engaged in combat from using pistol 5 into HS which proc'd lead attacks. Pistol5+hs=9 stacks.
    You could see that was on the screen too.

    Which is 9% extra damage. Which would even fail to make up for the 20% damage from executioner and 5% damage from Eagle over Scholar. That is, if I didnt stack for more than 9 lead attack stacks. Which still leaves us with the same issue. You did considerably more damage than I did while having considerably lower damage multipliers overall. Which, again, not really possible. Not without Shenanigans at least.

    Weapon strenght isnt fixed number and exactly why damage is inconsistent. Still, 500g and I'm making a video, les go?

    Correct, it isnt fixed and the damage is inconsistent. It fluctuates by about 5-10%. You still exceeded the highest damage by 20%, while having much lower damage multipliers. So no, thats not it either. Again, the only possibility is Shenanigans. Because otherwise, youre about 40% or so of damage multipliers short.

    So, basically, after showing you that the mesmer I asked have armor (which you can see, unless you are blind) and stabbed with meta build = being accused in lying ? How does it even work?

    If Math shows something to be impossible, its impossible. So if you show something that is impossible, that means something is up. I dont know what, but I know that the damage you have shown is impossible.

  • My thing about thief is their mobility and ability to +1 and down a player is significantly better than everything else that is meta right now. Get a reaper spinning on you for 6k and a thief backstabbing you for 6k you are forced to blow cooldowns to recover meanwhile they will just wait 5 seconds and do it again while all your defenses are on gone. The biggest problem with thief was always the initiative system allowing them to set up bursts quicker. If it were me, I'd remove initiative and just give them skill cooldowns.

  • Odik.4587Odik.4587 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    If Math shows something to be impossible, its impossible. So if you show something that is impossible, that means something is up. I dont know what, but I know that the damage you have shown is impossible.

    Quoting wall of text isnt nice uk? I tested on that mesmer countless amount of backstabs. If he wouldnt wear boots steal would hit for 3k instead.
    Backstabs(of course with armor, in combat) ranged from 10.200 up to 11.200 (all recorded, will upload and give you a link for 500g, 13 minutes of it xD or shorter version), couldnt reproduce this 11.7 tho . I dont know/interested in that "math" but mesmer armor is 1888, just letting you know (I wouldnt be surprised if your "math" is wrong xD). Bring a friend to do the same (if you have any). Thread isnt about backstab even but after pointing out I clearly can do more than 9k (And I did, lol) you accuse me in being a liar, how nice of you :astonished: .

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @FrownyClown.8402 said:
    My thing about thief is their mobility and ability to +1 and down a player is significantly better than everything else that is meta right now. Get a reaper spinning on you for 6k and a thief backstabbing you for 6k you are forced to blow cooldowns to recover meanwhile they will just wait 5 seconds and do it again while all your defenses are on gone. The biggest problem with thief was always the initiative system allowing them to set up bursts quicker. If it were me, I'd remove initiative and just give them skill cooldowns.

    I donno I find soulbeast +1 effective and safer at 1800 range. Just kite and Europe pew a enemy ur ally is fighting is usually effected but u lose out on ability to rotate as fast to decap which is important in a mode like conquest. With that said soulbeast gains strengths in areas thief's not so strong in but rotations and decaps are very important so

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    So let me get this strait here. Thief right now can do a huge burst with dp and follow up with said current dps. After patch the burst is getting lowered as a classes are but hp and toughness remain the same leading to longer fights which thief doesnt really excell at but things are going to be the same cuz the dps nerfs were blanket?
    I could see if base hp and tough ess were taking hits but as far as I know their not which is a significant factor no?

    Perma stealth build that is currently bursting for 14-16k damage from stealth is going down to 12-14k in a balance patch where healing, protection, mobility, and active mitigation for everyone else is getting nerfed by 30-60%. Thief players think their class is being over nerfed.

    I dont know where you got this idea of 14-16k bursts, but D/P does not burst nearly that hard. Hell it doesnt even burst for 12-14k right now. It bursts for 7-8k. Which goes down to 4.5-5.5k burst. On a super glassy build with minimal defenses and very low DPS after the initial burst. I dont know why you think its getting away lightly, when in truth, its probably getting hit worse than most builds. Because not all damage reductions are equal. A burst build gets a lot worse after a 30% damage reduction than a bunker build or a skirmisher build.

    It's not just Backstab.

    I've seen backstab hit for anywhere between 6-9k damage on a crit. This is overlapped with Mug for 2.5k damage multicasted on top of the burst. Both of these proc Leeching Venoms if they've stacked in stealth, which they almost certainly have. This adds up to another 1k damage. Backstab also procs Shadow Siphoning for another 600 damage. Both parts of the double strike come out in 0.25 seconds after the backstab+mug combo. These will both do about 1.1k+1.1k damage. These will also both proc Leeching Venoms for another 1k damage.

    6-9000+2,500+600+1000+1100+1100+1000 =13,300-16,300 damage with even less of a tell than a mesmer greatsword burst.

    Ok Im gonna have to correct your damage on several points here. First, Backstab will usually hit in the 5-7k area. 9k is on glass builds, and we dont have many of those in the meta. Second, if Backstab is hitting for 6-9k, Mug is not hitting for 2.5k. Itll be hitting for about 1.5-2k. Leeching Venoms will only hit for 800, and Double Strike is a lot slower (Total time for attack sequence is once every 1.68 seconds, indicating that double strike, which takes up about 30%, is about half a second), and hits less hard (It hits for exactly 1/4 of backstabs damage in total, so if backstab is hitting for 5-7k, itll be hitting for 1.25k-1.75k).

    So if we adjust the damage properly, its 5000-7000+1500+500+800+1250-1750+800=9850-12350 damage. And thats with me using the higher values for Leeching Venom, Mug and Shadow Siphoning. Not a big difference though. And thats if you include Double Strike in the burst which personally I dont, but youre free to, thats a matter of opinion.

    And now, to compare it to GS burst from Mesmer. First, it doesnt have less of a tell, because both of them have the same tell. None. In both cases the entire damage of the burst happens out of stealth in .2 seconds, which is faster than human reaction time (and in the case of Mesmer might or might not be backed up by a stun). Now of course, GS burst is a lot higher. Thats not surprising, GS burst has a longer cooldown and requires more time between attempts, so it has to. Mind you, its not the bursts damage or the ability to react to it that has made Shatter Mesmer fall off. Its the fact that its map mobility is frankly pathetic nowadays. Portal aint what it used to be.

    I literally just used the Assassin Signet burst combo on the medium target golem and those were the numbers I got and used when making that post.

    I did the same thing, but only to check the damage ratios. Though that being said, I did the same thing, and my backstab did not exceed 6.5k, so Im not sure where you got 9k from.

    I get 9k from being hit by them.

    In that case you must be playing glass, they must be playing glass (so Berserker instead of Marauder and Scholar instead of Eagle, and quite possibly dropping SA for CS. Because otherwise, 9k isnt achievable.

    Wanderer at the time, which is +560 toughness. I've had to switch from Wanderer to Deadshot which is +560 vitality because the +22% effective health from Wanderer doesn't prevent me from immediately being dropped into downstate by the new Shadow Arts thieves while the +33% effective health from Deadshot means even though I get hit for harder numbers but I'm consistently left with a few thousand HP to attempt to recover.

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2020

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @Crackmonster.2790 said:
    Thieves are filthy animals. They have so much over the top kitten.
    They destroy you fast as hell, they sometimes oneshot you directly in a single attack from stealth, they stealth all around and are thereby annoying as kitten, their mobility is insane i can't even catch them using several teleports and speed runes they still just charge away as they want faster than a lightning. They have a lot of evade kitten and imagine how much they nerfed mirages till now mirages aint got nothing almost but those filthy thieves got so much they must pay the price, enough is enough they are freestyling from extreme safety, extreme mobility and oneshot from stealth potential-
    while other classes get any of their powers kept extremely in check.

    Lol "Thief wont let me be op."

    @noot.8641 said:
    Funny how everyone is compaining about a skill that has been there since forever, infiltrators arrow had not been changed since a long time, and now u guys qq about it? That skill is the bread and butter for s/d thieves, if you nerf that s/d will be poop.

    Why do people keep using this argument? It doesnt work. The devs don't care about the status quo. Did you see the patch?

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    In that case you must be playing glass, they must be playing glass (so Berserker instead of Marauder and Scholar instead of Eagle, and quite possibly dropping SA for CS. Because otherwise, 9k isnt achievable.

    you can hit 9k on mara vs a glass or mara target. Shadow Arts damage buffs is exactly why they can, now.
    There's even a sleeper build that hits for higher than that on Deadeye, but not gonna talk about that because it trades surprise for damage.
    It's getting nerfed anyway so meh.

    Outside of the leeching Venoms, how does shadow arts boost thief damage?

    Successive hits can take 350 leech damage and add up to 2I, but that isn't tacked into backstab lump sum.

    So, for a 9k backstab, we can eliminate shadow arts from the (damage source) equation.

    Assuming core thief it's running trickery and deadly.

    Now the complaint is 0 tells, 0 warning.

    Well no lead attacks because that would mean the thief was in combat nearby (that is plenty of warning)

    But we know that they were in +1 so everyone knew the thief was around.

    +15% lead attacks
    Eagle runes give that fero and +10% below 50
    5% sigil
    Pop signet

    On a less than 50% target with full lead attack thief, 9k is doable on marauders.

    Not doable first hit out of combat on fresh target.

    On shadow arts core I mean.

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
    My Daredevil build after the big patch

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    If Math shows something to be impossible, its impossible. So if you show something that is impossible, that means something is up. I dont know what, but I know that the damage you have shown is impossible.

    Quoting wall of text isnt nice uk? I tested on that mesmer countless amount of backstabs. If he wouldnt wear boots steal would hit for 3k instead. Backstabs ranged from 10.200 up to 11.200 (all recorded, will upload and give you a link for 500g, 13 minutes of it xD or shorter version), couldnt reproduce this 11.7 tho. I dont know/interested in that "math" but mesmer armor is 1888, just letting you know. Bring a friend to do the same (if you have any). Thread isnt about backstab even but after pointing out I clearly can do more than 9k you accuse me in being a liar, how nice of you :astonished: .

    So it is. I mustve had a rune that gave a bit of toughness on my Ele. That makes a difference of 1% damage. Not even enough to matter in the scale of damage fluctuations. But yes, it doesnt work. In fact, let me go through the exact math to show why it doesnt work. The full damage formula. So, its ((Weapon Strength]*(Power)*(Attack Coefficient)/(Enemy Armor))*damage multipliers. So, with steal granting 3 might, which is 90 power, and an activated Assassin's Signet, the thief will at that point have 2765 power (using scholars). Daggers Weapon Strength in PvP is 950 at max. Backstabs coefficient is 2.4. So the base one we have is 2680*950*2.4/1888=3339 damage. Now ontop of that we get damage multipliers. Thankfully, the build makes it easy for us, as it doesnt have too many. Lets see. Steal applies 3 condis, so you get 6% from Exposed weakness and 3% from Sigil of Compounding. One of those condis is Vulnerability, so thats 5% there. Scholar gives you 5%, and Lead Attack gives you 9. And then we have critting, which gives you 102% extra damage. So, that gives us 3339*1.06*1.03*1.09*1.05*1.05*2.02=8849. Thats it. Thats the highest damage your backstab could have done in that situation. Note: Its about 2-3k short of the damage you claim it has. And thats with Scholars. So, as I said. Shenanigans.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    I love seeing mesmers complain about any class lol I was in arena couple nights ago playing spellbreaker and a mirage walked up and bursted more than 3/4 of my 19+k/3000 toughness hp in literally a sec lol and had he wanted to could have done it from stealth and they complain about other classes burst? Cmon get outa here.

    I've never been a defender of Power Mesmer's burst.

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    https://imgur.com/gallery/3M6q6CU
    not the biggest stab I got boomed by, not the lowest.
    This is from today, take whatever you will from the screen, I was slow so I died

    I mean, that seems about right. A decent amount of burst, but even on a squishy target far from a one-shot. Given that its done by a glass build that pretty much is only good for burst, about the damage Id want it to do. Its lower than other burst builds (by quite a lot), but thief does still have their signature skill, shortbow 5, to give them inherent value that other burst builds (like shatter Mes) lack.

    It's a 14k burst, only 7.5k is coming from the Backstab and the rest is coming from multicasting Mug plus the Life Siphon traits. You guys don't seem to be getting the fact that Mug+Shadow Arts is almost doubling your burst capacity.

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    I love seeing mesmers complain about any class lol I was in arena couple nights ago playing spellbreaker and a mirage walked up and bursted more than 3/4 of my 19+k/3000 toughness hp in literally a sec lol and had he wanted to could have done it from stealth and they complain about other classes burst? Cmon get outa here.

    I've never been a defender of Power Mesmer's burst.

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    https://imgur.com/gallery/3M6q6CU
    not the biggest stab I got boomed by, not the lowest.
    This is from today, take whatever you will from the screen, I was slow so I died

    I mean, that seems about right. A decent amount of burst, but even on a squishy target far from a one-shot. Given that its done by a glass build that pretty much is only good for burst, about the damage Id want it to do. Its lower than other burst builds (by quite a lot), but thief does still have their signature skill, shortbow 5, to give them inherent value that other burst builds (like shatter Mes) lack.

    It's a 14k burst, only 7.5k is coming from the Backstab and the rest is coming from multicasting Mug plus the Life Siphon traits. You guys don't seem to be getting the fact that Mug+Shadow Arts is almost doubling your burst capacity.

    First of all, the hell is "multicasting mug" supposed to mean. You get it once, and it hits for 1k. You never get a 14k burst except on the squishiest target with the glassiest build. The typical burst is 7-9k, depending on how much toughness the enemy has. Which is fine.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    So let me get this strait here. Thief right now can do a huge burst with dp and follow up with said current dps. After patch the burst is getting lowered as a classes are but hp and toughness remain the same leading to longer fights which thief doesnt really excell at but things are going to be the same cuz the dps nerfs were blanket?
    I could see if base hp and tough ess were taking hits but as far as I know their not which is a significant factor no?

    Perma stealth build that is currently bursting for 14-16k damage from stealth is going down to 12-14k in a balance patch where healing, protection, mobility, and active mitigation for everyone else is getting nerfed by 30-60%. Thief players think their class is being over nerfed.

    I dont know where you got this idea of 14-16k bursts, but D/P does not burst nearly that hard. Hell it doesnt even burst for 12-14k right now. It bursts for 7-8k. Which goes down to 4.5-5.5k burst. On a super glassy build with minimal defenses and very low DPS after the initial burst. I dont know why you think its getting away lightly, when in truth, its probably getting hit worse than most builds. Because not all damage reductions are equal. A burst build gets a lot worse after a 30% damage reduction than a bunker build or a skirmisher build.

    It's not just Backstab.

    I've seen backstab hit for anywhere between 6-9k damage on a crit. This is overlapped with Mug for 2.5k damage multicasted on top of the burst. Both of these proc Leeching Venoms if they've stacked in stealth, which they almost certainly have. This adds up to another 1k damage. Backstab also procs Shadow Siphoning for another 600 damage. Both parts of the double strike come out in 0.25 seconds after the backstab+mug combo. These will both do about 1.1k+1.1k damage. These will also both proc Leeching Venoms for another 1k damage.

    6-9000+2,500+600+1000+1100+1100+1000 =13,300-16,300 damage with even less of a tell than a mesmer greatsword burst.

    Ok Im gonna have to correct your damage on several points here. First, Backstab will usually hit in the 5-7k area. 9k is on glass builds, and we dont have many of those in the meta. Second, if Backstab is hitting for 6-9k, Mug is not hitting for 2.5k. Itll be hitting for about 1.5-2k. Leeching Venoms will only hit for 800, and Double Strike is a lot slower (Total time for attack sequence is once every 1.68 seconds, indicating that double strike, which takes up about 30%, is about half a second), and hits less hard (It hits for exactly 1/4 of backstabs damage in total, so if backstab is hitting for 5-7k, itll be hitting for 1.25k-1.75k).

    So if we adjust the damage properly, its 5000-7000+1500+500+800+1250-1750+800=9850-12350 damage. And thats with me using the higher values for Leeching Venom, Mug and Shadow Siphoning. Not a big difference though. And thats if you include Double Strike in the burst which personally I dont, but youre free to, thats a matter of opinion.

    And now, to compare it to GS burst from Mesmer. First, it doesnt have less of a tell, because both of them have the same tell. None. In both cases the entire damage of the burst happens out of stealth in .2 seconds, which is faster than human reaction time (and in the case of Mesmer might or might not be backed up by a stun). Now of course, GS burst is a lot higher. Thats not surprising, GS burst has a longer cooldown and requires more time between attempts, so it has to. Mind you, its not the bursts damage or the ability to react to it that has made Shatter Mesmer fall off. Its the fact that its map mobility is frankly pathetic nowadays. Portal aint what it used to be.

    I literally just used the Assassin Signet burst combo on the medium target golem and those were the numbers I got and used when making that post.

    I did the same thing, but only to check the damage ratios. Though that being said, I did the same thing, and my backstab did not exceed 6.5k, so Im not sure where you got 9k from.

    I get 9k from being hit by them.

    In that case you must be playing glass, they must be playing glass (so Berserker instead of Marauder and Scholar instead of Eagle, and quite possibly dropping SA for CS. Because otherwise, 9k isnt achievable.

    Wanderer at the time, which is +560 toughness. I've had to switch from Wanderer to Deadshot which is +560 vitality because the +22% effective health from Wanderer doesn't prevent me from immediately being dropped into downstate by the new Shadow Arts thieves while the +33% effective health from Deadshot means even though I get hit for harder numbers but I'm consistently left with a few thousand HP to attempt to recover.

    Yeah 9k isnt achievable with 560 toughness unless you were already below 50% hp and they were running executioner. Most they can hit you for with 560 toughness is, hm. 6.8k based on the full damage formula. Thats less than half your health if Im not mistaken.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Again the fact thief's backstab dps among all of its other dps is going down a significant amount all while base hp/toughness is not meaning one shot backstabbing won't exist on even glass targets after patch so is this thread really worth discussing about?

  • Odik.4587Odik.4587 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    If Math shows something to be impossible, its impossible. So if you show something that is impossible, that means something is up. I dont know what, but I know that the damage you have shown is impossible.

    Quoting wall of text isnt nice uk? I tested on that mesmer countless amount of backstabs. If he wouldnt wear boots steal would hit for 3k instead. Backstabs ranged from 10.200 up to 11.200 (all recorded, will upload and give you a link for 500g, 13 minutes of it xD or shorter version), couldnt reproduce this 11.7 tho. I dont know/interested in that "math" but mesmer armor is 1888, just letting you know. Bring a friend to do the same (if you have any).Thread isnt about backstab even but after pointing out I clearly can do more than 9k you accuse me in being a liar, how nice of you :astonished: .

    So it is. I mustve had a rune that gave a bit of toughness on my Ele. That makes a difference of 1% damage. Not even enough to matter in the scale of damage fluctuations. But yes, it doesnt work. In fact, let me go through the exact math to show why it doesnt work. The full damage formula. So, its ((Weapon Strength]*(Power)*(Attack Coefficient)/(Enemy Armor))*damage multipliers. So, with steal granting 3 might, which is 90 power, and an activated Assassin's Signet, the thief will at that point have 2765 power (using scholars). Daggers Weapon Strength in PvP is 950 at max. Backstabs coefficient is 2.4. So the base one we have is 2680*950*2.4/1888=3339 damage. Now ontop of that we get damage multipliers. Thankfully, the build makes it easy for us, as it doesnt have too many. Lets see. Steal applies 3 condis, so you get 6% from Exposed weakness and 3% from Sigil of Compounding. One of those condis is Vulnerability, so thats 5% there. Scholar gives you 5%, and Lead Attack gives you 9. And then we have critting, which gives you 102% extra damage. So, that gives us 3339*1.06*1.03*1.09*1.05*1.05*2.02=8849. Thats it. Thats the highest damage your backstab could have done in that situation. Note: Its about 2-3k short of the damage you claim it has. And thats with Scholars. So, as I said. Shenanigans.

    I found your issue, bolded it ;)
    kitten, savage typos.
    tldr : on paper its one thing, in game is another. Either your calculations are wrong or BS does more damage than it should. Pick 1.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    If Math shows something to be impossible, its impossible. So if you show something that is impossible, that means something is up. I dont know what, but I know that the damage you have shown is impossible.

    Quoting wall of text isnt nice uk? I tested on that mesmer countless amount of backstabs. If he wouldnt wear boots steal would hit for 3k instead. Backstabs ranged from 10.200 up to 11.200 (all recorded, will upload and give you a link for 500g, 13 minutes of it xD or shorter version), couldnt reproduce this 11.7 tho. I dont know/interested in that "math" but mesmer armor is 1888, just letting you know. Bring a friend to do the same (if you have any).Thread isnt about backstab even but after pointing out I clearly can do more than 9k you accuse me in being a liar, how nice of you :astonished: .

    So it is. I mustve had a rune that gave a bit of toughness on my Ele. That makes a difference of 1% damage. Not even enough to matter in the scale of damage fluctuations. But yes, it doesnt work. In fact, let me go through the exact math to show why it doesnt work. The full damage formula. So, its ((Weapon Strength]*(Power)*(Attack Coefficient)/(Enemy Armor))*damage multipliers. So, with steal granting 3 might, which is 90 power, and an activated Assassin's Signet, the thief will at that point have 2765 power (using scholars). Daggers Weapon Strength in PvP is 950 at max. Backstabs coefficient is 2.4. So the base one we have is 2680*950*2.4/1888=3339 damage. Now ontop of that we get damage multipliers. Thankfully, the build makes it easy for us, as it doesnt have too many. Lets see. Steal applies 3 condis, so you get 6% from Exposed weakness and 3% from Sigil of Compounding. One of those condis is Vulnerability, so thats 5% there. Scholar gives you 5%, and Lead Attack gives you 9. And then we have critting, which gives you 102% extra damage. So, that gives us 3339*1.06*1.03*1.09*1.05*1.05*2.02=8849. Thats it. Thats the highest damage your backstab could have done in that situation. Note: Its about 2-3k short of the damage you claim it has. And thats with Scholars. So, as I said. Shenanigans.

    I faund your issue, bolded it ;)
    Now find a mistake in your own calculations or we can safely assume that BS is bugged and does way more damage than its should.

    There is no mistake in my calculation, and we can safely assume that Backstab ISNT bugged. As I said, I already did a small test on the side myself, getting just about 9k with executioners and Eagle active on a glass thief. So, one of us 2 isnt being honest. Given that Ive also shown that the math completely supports my claim, I think we can guess which one of us it is. In fact, let me just do the math for my version real quick to show that. 2680*950*2.4/2024=3018 base damage. Then, damage multipliers. Remove the 1.05 and 1.09 (I entered Stealth via a heal skill) and add 1.1 and 1.2. 3018*1.06*1.03*1.05*1.1*1.2*2.02=9225. Bam. Would you look at that. Pretty much exactly as I said.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    If Math shows something to be impossible, its impossible. So if you show something that is impossible, that means something is up. I dont know what, but I know that the damage you have shown is impossible.

    Quoting wall of text isnt nice uk? I tested on that mesmer countless amount of backstabs. If he wouldnt wear boots steal would hit for 3k instead. Backstabs ranged from 10.200 up to 11.200 (all recorded, will upload and give you a link for 500g, 13 minutes of it xD or shorter version), couldnt reproduce this 11.7 tho. I dont know/interested in that "math" but mesmer armor is 1888, just letting you know. Bring a friend to do the same (if you have any).Thread isnt about backstab even but after pointing out I clearly can do more than 9k you accuse me in being a liar, how nice of you :astonished: .

    So it is. I mustve had a rune that gave a bit of toughness on my Ele. That makes a difference of 1% damage. Not even enough to matter in the scale of damage fluctuations. But yes, it doesnt work. In fact, let me go through the exact math to show why it doesnt work. The full damage formula. So, its ((Weapon Strength]*(Power)*(Attack Coefficient)/(Enemy Armor))*damage multipliers. So, with steal granting 3 might, which is 90 power, and an activated Assassin's Signet, the thief will at that point have 2765 power (using scholars). Daggers Weapon Strength in PvP is 950 at max. Backstabs coefficient is 2.4. So the base one we have is 2680*950*2.4/1888=3339 damage. Now ontop of that we get damage multipliers. Thankfully, the build makes it easy for us, as it doesnt have too many. Lets see. Steal applies 3 condis, so you get 6% from Exposed weakness and 3% from Sigil of Compounding. One of those condis is Vulnerability, so thats 5% there. Scholar gives you 5%, and Lead Attack gives you 9. And then we have critting, which gives you 102% extra damage. So, that gives us 3339*1.06*1.03*1.09*1.05*1.05*2.02=8849. Thats it. Thats the highest damage your backstab could have done in that situation. Note: Its about 2-3k short of the damage you claim it has. And thats with Scholars. So, as I said. Shenanigans.

    I found your issue, bolded it ;)
    kitten, savage typos.
    tldr : on paper its one thing, in game is another. Either your calculations are wrong or BS does more damage than it should. Pick 1.

    He is missing https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Even_the_Odds
    5 stacks of might, other then that I dont see anything wrong.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    If Math shows something to be impossible, its impossible. So if you show something that is impossible, that means something is up. I dont know what, but I know that the damage you have shown is impossible.

    Quoting wall of text isnt nice uk? I tested on that mesmer countless amount of backstabs. If he wouldnt wear boots steal would hit for 3k instead. Backstabs ranged from 10.200 up to 11.200 (all recorded, will upload and give you a link for 500g, 13 minutes of it xD or shorter version), couldnt reproduce this 11.7 tho. I dont know/interested in that "math" but mesmer armor is 1888, just letting you know. Bring a friend to do the same (if you have any).Thread isnt about backstab even but after pointing out I clearly can do more than 9k you accuse me in being a liar, how nice of you :astonished: .

    So it is. I mustve had a rune that gave a bit of toughness on my Ele. That makes a difference of 1% damage. Not even enough to matter in the scale of damage fluctuations. But yes, it doesnt work. In fact, let me go through the exact math to show why it doesnt work. The full damage formula. So, its ((Weapon Strength]*(Power)*(Attack Coefficient)/(Enemy Armor))*damage multipliers. So, with steal granting 3 might, which is 90 power, and an activated Assassin's Signet, the thief will at that point have 2765 power (using scholars). Daggers Weapon Strength in PvP is 950 at max. Backstabs coefficient is 2.4. So the base one we have is 2680*950*2.4/1888=3339 damage. Now ontop of that we get damage multipliers. Thankfully, the build makes it easy for us, as it doesnt have too many. Lets see. Steal applies 3 condis, so you get 6% from Exposed weakness and 3% from Sigil of Compounding. One of those condis is Vulnerability, so thats 5% there. Scholar gives you 5%, and Lead Attack gives you 9. And then we have critting, which gives you 102% extra damage. So, that gives us 3339*1.06*1.03*1.09*1.05*1.05*2.02=8849. Thats it. Thats the highest damage your backstab could have done in that situation. Note: Its about 2-3k short of the damage you claim it has. And thats with Scholars. So, as I said. Shenanigans.

    I found your issue, bolded it ;)
    kitten, savage typos.
    tldr : on paper its one thing, in game is another. Either your calculations are wrong or BS does more damage than it should. Pick 1.

    He is missing https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Even_the_Odds
    5 stacks of might, other then that I dont see anything wrong.

    Oh Im not. Even the Odds only applies the Might on stealth attack hit. Which means the might does not factor into the stealth attacks damage, unless its a multihit stealth attack in which case it would affect all but the first hit. Were looking at Backstab, a single hit stealth attack, so the might only applies after the backstab damage and does not affect it.

  • Odik.4587Odik.4587 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    If Math shows something to be impossible, its impossible. So if you show something that is impossible, that means something is up. I dont know what, but I know that the damage you have shown is impossible.

    Quoting wall of text isnt nice uk? I tested on that mesmer countless amount of backstabs. If he wouldnt wear boots steal would hit for 3k instead. Backstabs ranged from 10.200 up to 11.200 (all recorded, will upload and give you a link for 500g, 13 minutes of it xD or shorter version), couldnt reproduce this 11.7 tho. I dont know/interested in that "math" but mesmer armor is 1888, just letting you know. Bring a friend to do the same (if you have any).Thread isnt about backstab even but after pointing out I clearly can do more than 9k you accuse me in being a liar, how nice of you :astonished: .

    So it is. I mustve had a rune that gave a bit of toughness on my Ele. That makes a difference of 1% damage. Not even enough to matter in the scale of damage fluctuations. But yes, it doesnt work. In fact, let me go through the exact math to show why it doesnt work. The full damage formula. So, its ((Weapon Strength]*(Power)*(Attack Coefficient)/(Enemy Armor))*damage multipliers. So, with steal granting 3 might, which is 90 power, and an activated Assassin's Signet, the thief will at that point have 2765 power (using scholars). Daggers Weapon Strength in PvP is 950 at max. Backstabs coefficient is 2.4. So the base one we have is 2680*950*2.4/1888=3339 damage. Now ontop of that we get damage multipliers. Thankfully, the build makes it easy for us, as it doesnt have too many. Lets see. Steal applies 3 condis, so you get 6% from Exposed weakness and 3% from Sigil of Compounding. One of those condis is Vulnerability, so thats 5% there. Scholar gives you 5%, and Lead Attack gives you 9. And then we have critting, which gives you 102% extra damage. So, that gives us 3339*1.06*1.03*1.09*1.05*1.05*2.02=8849. Thats it. Thats the highest damage your backstab could have done in that situation. Note: Its about 2-3k short of the damage you claim it has. And thats with Scholars. So, as I said. Shenanigans.

    I found your issue, bolded it ;)
    kitten, savage typos.
    tldr : on paper its one thing, in game is another. Either your calculations are wrong or BS does more damage than it should. Pick 1.

    He is missing https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Even_the_Odds
    5 stacks of might, other then that I dont see anything wrong.

    I dont really bother to read his walls tbh.
    I even stated that I did it in combat and it had (as follows on screen there pistol5 into HS) into BS with meta build, not from stealthign out of combat. While it was out of combat it was around 9400, in combat it was 10.2k-11.2k. Which is HIGHER than his stated "no way it can be more than 9k". I have video where I countless amount of times stab mesmer and even did the same when he was missing his boots.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    If Math shows something to be impossible, its impossible. So if you show something that is impossible, that means something is up. I dont know what, but I know that the damage you have shown is impossible.

    Quoting wall of text isnt nice uk? I tested on that mesmer countless amount of backstabs. If he wouldnt wear boots steal would hit for 3k instead. Backstabs ranged from 10.200 up to 11.200 (all recorded, will upload and give you a link for 500g, 13 minutes of it xD or shorter version), couldnt reproduce this 11.7 tho. I dont know/interested in that "math" but mesmer armor is 1888, just letting you know. Bring a friend to do the same (if you have any).Thread isnt about backstab even but after pointing out I clearly can do more than 9k you accuse me in being a liar, how nice of you :astonished: .

    So it is. I mustve had a rune that gave a bit of toughness on my Ele. That makes a difference of 1% damage. Not even enough to matter in the scale of damage fluctuations. But yes, it doesnt work. In fact, let me go through the exact math to show why it doesnt work. The full damage formula. So, its ((Weapon Strength]*(Power)*(Attack Coefficient)/(Enemy Armor))*damage multipliers. So, with steal granting 3 might, which is 90 power, and an activated Assassin's Signet, the thief will at that point have 2765 power (using scholars). Daggers Weapon Strength in PvP is 950 at max. Backstabs coefficient is 2.4. So the base one we have is 2680*950*2.4/1888=3339 damage. Now ontop of that we get damage multipliers. Thankfully, the build makes it easy for us, as it doesnt have too many. Lets see. Steal applies 3 condis, so you get 6% from Exposed weakness and 3% from Sigil of Compounding. One of those condis is Vulnerability, so thats 5% there. Scholar gives you 5%, and Lead Attack gives you 9. And then we have critting, which gives you 102% extra damage. So, that gives us 3339*1.06*1.03*1.09*1.05*1.05*2.02=8849. Thats it. Thats the highest damage your backstab could have done in that situation. Note: Its about 2-3k short of the damage you claim it has. And thats with Scholars. So, as I said. Shenanigans.

    I found your issue, bolded it ;)
    kitten, savage typos.
    tldr : on paper its one thing, in game is another. Either your calculations are wrong or BS does more damage than it should. Pick 1.

    He is missing https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Even_the_Odds
    5 stacks of might, other then that I dont see anything wrong.

    I dont really bother to read his walls tbh.
    I even stated that I did it in combat and it had (as follows on screen there pistol5 into HS) into BS with meta build, not from stealthign out of combat. While it was out of combat it was around 9400, in combat it was 10.2k-11.2k. Which is HIGHER than his stated "no way it can be more than 9k". I have video where I countless amount of times stab mesmer and even did the same when he was missing his boots.

    Ah yes, the best response to math that proves that what youre trying to claim is thoroughly wrong. Ignore it. Oh well, you werent honest to begin with, so I guess math wasnt going to convince you either, but everyone else can see that the math proves what youre trying to claim to be impossible. All thanks to the power of Math.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    I love seeing mesmers complain about any class lol I was in arena couple nights ago playing spellbreaker and a mirage walked up and bursted more than 3/4 of my 19+k/3000 toughness hp in literally a sec lol and had he wanted to could have done it from stealth and they complain about other classes burst? Cmon get outa here.

    I've never been a defender of Power Mesmer's burst.

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    https://imgur.com/gallery/3M6q6CU
    not the biggest stab I got boomed by, not the lowest.
    This is from today, take whatever you will from the screen, I was slow so I died

    I mean, that seems about right. A decent amount of burst, but even on a squishy target far from a one-shot. Given that its done by a glass build that pretty much is only good for burst, about the damage Id want it to do. Its lower than other burst builds (by quite a lot), but thief does still have their signature skill, shortbow 5, to give them inherent value that other burst builds (like shatter Mes) lack.

    It's a 14k burst, only 7.5k is coming from the Backstab and the rest is coming from multicasting Mug plus the Life Siphon traits. You guys don't seem to be getting the fact that Mug+Shadow Arts is almost doubling your burst capacity.

    First of all, the hell is "multicasting mug" supposed to mean. You get it once, and it hits for 1k. You never get a 14k burst except on the squishiest target with the glassiest build. The typical burst is 7-9k, depending on how much toughness the enemy has. Which is fine.

    Multicasting=casting multiple skills at once= casting a different skill (backstab) and then casting steal+the life siphons to land multiple attacks at the same time.

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    I love seeing mesmers complain about any class lol I was in arena couple nights ago playing spellbreaker and a mirage walked up and bursted more than 3/4 of my 19+k/3000 toughness hp in literally a sec lol and had he wanted to could have done it from stealth and they complain about other classes burst? Cmon get outa here.

    I've never been a defender of Power Mesmer's burst.

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    https://imgur.com/gallery/3M6q6CU
    not the biggest stab I got boomed by, not the lowest.
    This is from today, take whatever you will from the screen, I was slow so I died

    I mean, that seems about right. A decent amount of burst, but even on a squishy target far from a one-shot. Given that its done by a glass build that pretty much is only good for burst, about the damage Id want it to do. Its lower than other burst builds (by quite a lot), but thief does still have their signature skill, shortbow 5, to give them inherent value that other burst builds (like shatter Mes) lack.

    It's a 14k burst, only 7.5k is coming from the Backstab and the rest is coming from multicasting Mug plus the Life Siphon traits. You guys don't seem to be getting the fact that Mug+Shadow Arts is almost doubling your burst capacity.

    First of all, the hell is "multicasting mug" supposed to mean. You get it once, and it hits for 1k. You never get a 14k burst except on the squishiest target with the glassiest build. The typical burst is 7-9k, depending on how much toughness the enemy has. Which is fine.

    Multicasting=casting multiple skills at once= casting a different skill (backstab) and then casting steal+the life siphons to land multiple attacks at the same time.

    Ah, thats what you mean. Just ... overlapping skills. Usually you just call it that, we also call it that when Mesmers get like 3 skills at the same time. But I digress, the damage is still much lower than you claim it is. Something you can see when watching any videos of people playing the build.

  • Odik.4587Odik.4587 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    If Math shows something to be impossible, its impossible. So if you show something that is impossible, that means something is up. I dont know what, but I know that the damage you have shown is impossible.

    Quoting wall of text isnt nice uk? I tested on that mesmer countless amount of backstabs. If he wouldnt wear boots steal would hit for 3k instead. Backstabs ranged from 10.200 up to 11.200 (all recorded, will upload and give you a link for 500g, 13 minutes of it xD or shorter version), couldnt reproduce this 11.7 tho. I dont know/interested in that "math" but mesmer armor is 1888, just letting you know. Bring a friend to do the same (if you have any).Thread isnt about backstab even but after pointing out I clearly can do more than 9k you accuse me in being a liar, how nice of you :astonished: .

    So it is. I mustve had a rune that gave a bit of toughness on my Ele. That makes a difference of 1% damage. Not even enough to matter in the scale of damage fluctuations. But yes, it doesnt work. In fact, let me go through the exact math to show why it doesnt work. The full damage formula. So, its ((Weapon Strength]*(Power)*(Attack Coefficient)/(Enemy Armor))*damage multipliers. So, with steal granting 3 might, which is 90 power, and an activated Assassin's Signet, the thief will at that point have 2765 power (using scholars). Daggers Weapon Strength in PvP is 950 at max. Backstabs coefficient is 2.4. So the base one we have is 2680*950*2.4/1888=3339 damage. Now ontop of that we get damage multipliers. Thankfully, the build makes it easy for us, as it doesnt have too many. Lets see. Steal applies 3 condis, so you get 6% from Exposed weakness and 3% from Sigil of Compounding. One of those condis is Vulnerability, so thats 5% there. Scholar gives you 5%, and Lead Attack gives you 9. And then we have critting, which gives you 102% extra damage. So, that gives us 3339*1.06*1.03*1.09*1.05*1.05*2.02=8849. Thats it. Thats the highest damage your backstab could have done in that situation. Note: Its about 2-3k short of the damage you claim it has. And thats with Scholars. So, as I said. Shenanigans.

    I found your issue, bolded it ;)
    kitten, savage typos.
    tldr : on paper its one thing, in game is another. Either your calculations are wrong or BS does more damage than it should. Pick 1.

    He is missing https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Even_the_Odds
    5 stacks of might, other then that I dont see anything wrong.

    I dont really bother to read his walls tbh.
    I even stated that I did it in combat and it had (as follows on screen there pistol5 into HS) into BS with meta build, not from stealthign out of combat. While it was out of combat it was around 9400, in combat it was 10.2k-11.2k. Which is HIGHER than his stated "no way it can be more than 9k". I have video where I countless amount of times stab mesmer and even did the same when he was missing his boots.

    Ah yes, the best response to math that proves that what youre trying to claim is thoroughly wrong. Ignore it. Oh well, you werent honest to begin with, so I guess math wasnt going to convince you either, but everyone else can see that the math proves what youre trying to claim to be impossible. All thanks to the power of Math.

    I'm not sure even if you are trolling anymore tbh.
    "Look math says it can hit more than 8.8k"
    I log in the game hit 9.4-9.7k ooc and up to 11.2k in combat. Which you refuse to do because you have no friends and strangers arent willing to help you?
    You with a foam in mouth "you are liar". - Me - what?

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    If Math shows something to be impossible, its impossible. So if you show something that is impossible, that means something is up. I dont know what, but I know that the damage you have shown is impossible.

    Quoting wall of text isnt nice uk? I tested on that mesmer countless amount of backstabs. If he wouldnt wear boots steal would hit for 3k instead. Backstabs ranged from 10.200 up to 11.200 (all recorded, will upload and give you a link for 500g, 13 minutes of it xD or shorter version), couldnt reproduce this 11.7 tho. I dont know/interested in that "math" but mesmer armor is 1888, just letting you know. Bring a friend to do the same (if you have any).Thread isnt about backstab even but after pointing out I clearly can do more than 9k you accuse me in being a liar, how nice of you :astonished: .

    So it is. I mustve had a rune that gave a bit of toughness on my Ele. That makes a difference of 1% damage. Not even enough to matter in the scale of damage fluctuations. But yes, it doesnt work. In fact, let me go through the exact math to show why it doesnt work. The full damage formula. So, its ((Weapon Strength]*(Power)*(Attack Coefficient)/(Enemy Armor))*damage multipliers. So, with steal granting 3 might, which is 90 power, and an activated Assassin's Signet, the thief will at that point have 2765 power (using scholars). Daggers Weapon Strength in PvP is 950 at max. Backstabs coefficient is 2.4. So the base one we have is 2680*950*2.4/1888=3339 damage. Now ontop of that we get damage multipliers. Thankfully, the build makes it easy for us, as it doesnt have too many. Lets see. Steal applies 3 condis, so you get 6% from Exposed weakness and 3% from Sigil of Compounding. One of those condis is Vulnerability, so thats 5% there. Scholar gives you 5%, and Lead Attack gives you 9. And then we have critting, which gives you 102% extra damage. So, that gives us 3339*1.06*1.03*1.09*1.05*1.05*2.02=8849. Thats it. Thats the highest damage your backstab could have done in that situation. Note: Its about 2-3k short of the damage you claim it has. And thats with Scholars. So, as I said. Shenanigans.

    I found your issue, bolded it ;)
    kitten, savage typos.
    tldr : on paper its one thing, in game is another. Either your calculations are wrong or BS does more damage than it should. Pick 1.

    He is missing https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Even_the_Odds
    5 stacks of might, other then that I dont see anything wrong.

    I dont really bother to read his walls tbh.
    I even stated that I did it in combat and it had (as follows on screen there pistol5 into HS) into BS with meta build, not from stealthign out of combat. While it was out of combat it was around 9400, in combat it was 10.2k-11.2k. Which is HIGHER than his stated "no way it can be more than 9k". I have video where I countless amount of times stab mesmer and even did the same when he was missing his boots.

    Ah yes, the best response to math that proves that what youre trying to claim is thoroughly wrong. Ignore it. Oh well, you werent honest to begin with, so I guess math wasnt going to convince you either, but everyone else can see that the math proves what youre trying to claim to be impossible. All thanks to the power of Math.

    I'm not sure even if you are trolling anymore tbh.
    "Look math says it can hit more than 8.8k"
    I log in the game hit 9.4-9.7k ooc and up to 11.2k in combat. Which you refuse to do because you have no friends and strangers arent willing to help you?
    You with a foam in mouth "you are liar". - Me - what?

    Let me correct you. It cant hit more than 8.8k, unless you involve shenanigans. There are a number of ways to increase it. Take off armour to lower defense rating (And the armor stat as a result). Obtain 25 might stacks. Stack Lead Attacks, switch to Executioner, get the target below 50% and then do the burst. Basically, all you need to do is find a way to add 27% damage to the burst. Its doable, but you pretty much have to fabricate, create a specific scenario just to obtain the damage number you want to show. Which is dishonest. I dont know which method you used. But I can safely say, you used one of them.

    Also I know youre trying to deflect, but as I have mentioned multiple times, I have tried it in combat. I used the little arena in HotM, and the people there, to try it out. And I hit it on a bunch of targets in a bunch of situations. However, unlike you I did it honestly, without trying to fabricate a situation to get the numbers I want. As I said, the highest I could get was just over 9k, on a glass thief with Executioner and Eagle active. I also just showed that that perfectly lines up with the math. Which further proves that you were trying to get as high a damage number as possible, whatever method of fabrication you used.

  • @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @Crackmonster.2790 said:
    Thieves are filthy animals. They have so much over the top kitten.
    They destroy you fast as hell, they sometimes oneshot you directly in a single attack from stealth, they stealth all around and are thereby annoying as kitten, their mobility is insane i can't even catch them using several teleports and speed runes they still just charge away as they want faster than a lightning. They have a lot of evade kitten and imagine how much they nerfed mirages till now mirages aint got nothing almost but those filthy thieves got so much they must pay the price, enough is enough they are freestyling from extreme safety, extreme mobility and oneshot from stealth potential-
    while other classes get any of their powers kept extremely in check.

    Lol "Thief wont let me be op."

    ARAHGUAH, URGH RAH URG

    !!!

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2020

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    Outside of the leeching Venoms, how does shadow arts boost thief damage?

    I meant cumulative, so this ^.

    So, for a 9k backstab, we can eliminate shadow arts from the (damage source) equation.

    If you're talking raw damage/damage from backstab's skill without a steal-assisted precast, that's not what I was talking about. Its not going to hit that hard without mods/situational variance, so I didn't even consider that as an arguing point.

    @Crackmonster.2790 said:
    ARAHGUAH, URGH RAH URG

    Basically. I'm just watching how the crowd is rolling from mechanic to mechanic without acknowledging the nerfs thieves got, calling all of them busted before the patch is even out. A lot of them boil down to the above. Not all of them, but a sizable amount.

    [Charr Noises]
    [I play every class!]
    [Fight me in the arena anytime!]

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    I love seeing mesmers complain about any class lol I was in arena couple nights ago playing spellbreaker and a mirage walked up and bursted more than 3/4 of my 19+k/3000 toughness hp in literally a sec lol and had he wanted to could have done it from stealth and they complain about other classes burst? Cmon get outa here.

    I've never been a defender of Power Mesmer's burst.

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    https://imgur.com/gallery/3M6q6CU
    not the biggest stab I got boomed by, not the lowest.
    This is from today, take whatever you will from the screen, I was slow so I died

    I mean, that seems about right. A decent amount of burst, but even on a squishy target far from a one-shot. Given that its done by a glass build that pretty much is only good for burst, about the damage Id want it to do. Its lower than other burst builds (by quite a lot), but thief does still have their signature skill, shortbow 5, to give them inherent value that other burst builds (like shatter Mes) lack.

    It's a 14k burst, only 7.5k is coming from the Backstab and the rest is coming from multicasting Mug plus the Life Siphon traits. You guys don't seem to be getting the fact that Mug+Shadow Arts is almost doubling your burst capacity.

    First of all, the hell is "multicasting mug" supposed to mean. You get it once, and it hits for 1k. You never get a 14k burst except on the squishiest target with the glassiest build. The typical burst is 7-9k, depending on how much toughness the enemy has. Which is fine.

    Multicasting=casting multiple skills at once= casting a different skill (backstab) and then casting steal+the life siphons to land multiple attacks at the same time.

    Ah, thats what you mean. Just ... overlapping skills. Usually you just call it that, we also call it that when Mesmers get like 3 skills at the same time. But I digress, the damage is still much lower than you claim it is. Something you can see when watching any videos of people playing the build.

    This "bUt tHe bAcKsTaB Is oNlY SeVeN ThOuSaNd dAmAgE" game you two are playing when you can plainly see from that screenshot another 5.5k damage on top of the back stab which all lands at the same time due to the instant cast nature of Mug and the bonus damage nature of the Shadow Arts life siphon trait is tiresome and deliberately disingenuous.

    Especially since Life Steal like Shadow Siphoning+Leeching Venoms ignore armor.

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • Odik.4587Odik.4587 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    If Math shows something to be impossible, its impossible. So if you show something that is impossible, that means something is up. I dont know what, but I know that the damage you have shown is impossible.

    Quoting wall of text isnt nice uk? I tested on that mesmer countless amount of backstabs. If he wouldnt wear boots steal would hit for 3k instead. Backstabs ranged from 10.200 up to 11.200 (all recorded, will upload and give you a link for 500g, 13 minutes of it xD or shorter version), couldnt reproduce this 11.7 tho. I dont know/interested in that "math" but mesmer armor is 1888, just letting you know. Bring a friend to do the same (if you have any).Thread isnt about backstab even but after pointing out I clearly can do more than 9k you accuse me in being a liar, how nice of you :astonished: .

    So it is. I mustve had a rune that gave a bit of toughness on my Ele. That makes a difference of 1% damage. Not even enough to matter in the scale of damage fluctuations. But yes, it doesnt work. In fact, let me go through the exact math to show why it doesnt work. The full damage formula. So, its ((Weapon Strength]*(Power)*(Attack Coefficient)/(Enemy Armor))*damage multipliers. So, with steal granting 3 might, which is 90 power, and an activated Assassin's Signet, the thief will at that point have 2765 power (using scholars). Daggers Weapon Strength in PvP is 950 at max. Backstabs coefficient is 2.4. So the base one we have is 2680*950*2.4/1888=3339 damage. Now ontop of that we get damage multipliers. Thankfully, the build makes it easy for us, as it doesnt have too many. Lets see. Steal applies 3 condis, so you get 6% from Exposed weakness and 3% from Sigil of Compounding. One of those condis is Vulnerability, so thats 5% there. Scholar gives you 5%, and Lead Attack gives you 9. And then we have critting, which gives you 102% extra damage. So, that gives us 3339*1.06*1.03*1.09*1.05*1.05*2.02=8849. Thats it. Thats the highest damage your backstab could have done in that situation. Note: Its about 2-3k short of the damage you claim it has. And thats with Scholars. So, as I said. Shenanigans.

    I found your issue, bolded it ;)
    kitten, savage typos.
    tldr : on paper its one thing, in game is another. Either your calculations are wrong or BS does more damage than it should. Pick 1.

    He is missing https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Even_the_Odds
    5 stacks of might, other then that I dont see anything wrong.

    I dont really bother to read his walls tbh.
    I even stated that I did it in combat and it had (as follows on screen there pistol5 into HS) into BS with meta build, not from stealthign out of combat. While it was out of combat it was around 9400, in combat it was 10.2k-11.2k. Which is HIGHER than his stated "no way it can be more than 9k". I have video where I countless amount of times stab mesmer and even did the same when he was missing his boots.

    Ah yes, the best response to math that proves that what youre trying to claim is thoroughly wrong. Ignore it. Oh well, you werent honest to begin with, so I guess math wasnt going to convince you either, but everyone else can see that the math proves what youre trying to claim to be impossible. All thanks to the power of Math.

    I'm not sure even if you are trolling anymore tbh.
    "Look math says it can hit more than 8.8k"
    I log in the game hit 9.4-9.7k ooc and up to 11.2k in combat. Which you refuse to do because you have no friends and strangers arent willing to help you?
    You with a foam in mouth "you are liar". - Me - what?

    Let me correct you. It cant hit more than 8.8k, unless you involve shenanigans. There are a number of ways to increase it. Take off armour to lower defense rating (And the armor stat as a result). Obtain 25 might stacks. Stack Lead Attacks, switch to Executioner, get the target below 50% and then do the burst. Basically, all you need to do is find a way to add 27% damage to the burst. Its doable, but you pretty much have to fabricate, create a specific scenario just to obtain the damage number you want to show. Which is dishonest. I dont know which method you used. But I can safely say, you used one of them.

    So, you accusing me in making it up because I cant show 2 perspectives at once? If he would take armor off steal damage would skyrocket which doesnt happen.
    FYI lead attacks is a thief minor trait and somehow illegal to count on ? Sadly for you my stab was ~9400 and it was first try without trying more. Even without a single "lead attacks" stack

    Also I know youre trying to deflect, but as I have mentioned multiple times, I have tried it in combat. I used the little arena in HotM, and the people there, to try it out. And I hit it on a bunch of targets in a bunch of situations. However, unlike you I did it honestly, without trying to fabricate a situation to get the numbers I want. As I said, the highest I could get was just over 9k, on a glass thief with Executioner and Eagle active. I also just showed that that perfectly lines up with the math. Which further proves that you were trying to get as high a damage number as possible, whatever method of fabrication you used.

    "Fabricate" ? Wasnt it you saying its impossible to reach more than 9k backstab ? I did it "honest" without people boosting my possible damage with might stacks/vulnerability/banners etc and ofc it was on light armor (heck, even 10k on daredevil) . I cant imagine how using "pistol5 into hs-steal->backstab" can be fabricated/unfair by your standarts? Or "not being honest" ? Just, what? It would not be honest if I'd took critical strikes and claim I had shadowarts.
    Give me a reason to make a youtube channel and upload it there except your nonsense "you are not honest but I am".
    Its so simple, I took current meta build and hit a mesmer (could be any light armored class wearing no toughness amulet/rune) and slap them higher than 9k as you claim to be impossible.
    With a huge facepalm and no faith in hoomans goin sleep. You are such a time waste dude, not even funny

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2020

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    Outside of the leeching Venoms, how does shadow arts boost thief damage?

    See below. Let's not ignore bolded there.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    This "bUt tHe bAcKsTaB Is oNlY SeVeN ThOuSaNd dAmAgE" game you two are playing when you can plainly see from that screenshot another 5.5k damage on top of the back stab which all lands at the same time due to the instant cast nature of Mug and the bonus damage nature of the Shadow Arts life siphon trait is tiresome and deliberately disingenuous.
    Especially since Life Steal like Shadow Siphoning+Leeching Venoms ignore armor.

    This

    and This are fair assessments.

    Don't die on this hill. I'd rather the shadow arts shave than anything else at this time, especially because it has that same power mes burst flavor.

    [Charr Noises]
    [I play every class!]
    [Fight me in the arena anytime!]

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2020

    @Burnfall.9573 said:
    REDESIGN THIEF PROFESSION!!!!!

    That won't stop people from complaining, Burnfall.
    Even if stealth got reworked and thief got cooldowns, the archetype itself will cause people to feel cheated and robbed as long as this game exists. Thieves will adapt and continue to be annoying and toxic as long as their class is at least borderline viable. Removal of their viability, further, is not an option.
    I'd love to have a game where people considered any match against me on thief fair if they also lost that match, but that's a pipe dream.
    All that matters is that there's an avenue to counterplay. A redesign is too much work for no result. As long as every class has an option to build in such a way that they can stall or beat a thief, that's all that we need.

    [Charr Noises]
    [I play every class!]
    [Fight me in the arena anytime!]

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    I love seeing mesmers complain about any class lol I was in arena couple nights ago playing spellbreaker and a mirage walked up and bursted more than 3/4 of my 19+k/3000 toughness hp in literally a sec lol and had he wanted to could have done it from stealth and they complain about other classes burst? Cmon get outa here.

    I've never been a defender of Power Mesmer's burst.

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    https://imgur.com/gallery/3M6q6CU
    not the biggest stab I got boomed by, not the lowest.
    This is from today, take whatever you will from the screen, I was slow so I died

    I mean, that seems about right. A decent amount of burst, but even on a squishy target far from a one-shot. Given that its done by a glass build that pretty much is only good for burst, about the damage Id want it to do. Its lower than other burst builds (by quite a lot), but thief does still have their signature skill, shortbow 5, to give them inherent value that other burst builds (like shatter Mes) lack.

    It's a 14k burst, only 7.5k is coming from the Backstab and the rest is coming from multicasting Mug plus the Life Siphon traits. You guys don't seem to be getting the fact that Mug+Shadow Arts is almost doubling your burst capacity.

    First of all, the hell is "multicasting mug" supposed to mean. You get it once, and it hits for 1k. You never get a 14k burst except on the squishiest target with the glassiest build. The typical burst is 7-9k, depending on how much toughness the enemy has. Which is fine.

    Multicasting=casting multiple skills at once= casting a different skill (backstab) and then casting steal+the life siphons to land multiple attacks at the same time.

    Ah, thats what you mean. Just ... overlapping skills. Usually you just call it that, we also call it that when Mesmers get like 3 skills at the same time. But I digress, the damage is still much lower than you claim it is. Something you can see when watching any videos of people playing the build.

    This "bUt tHe bAcKsTaB Is oNlY SeVeN ThOuSaNd dAmAgE" game you two are playing when you can plainly see from that screenshot another 5.5k damage on top of the back stab which all lands at the same time due to the instant cast nature of Mug and the bonus damage nature of the Shadow Arts life siphon trait is tiresome and deliberately disingenuous.

    Especially since Life Steal like Shadow Siphoning+Leeching Venoms ignore armor.

    Except thats not 5.5k. Not even close. Lets go over them. If Backstab does 7k damage, then mug will do, roughly, 1.7k. Also if the Life Steal traits ignore armour (which I suspected), then I can safely say 2 instances of Leeching Venom do 414 each, and Shadow Siphoning does 600. So, in reality it does 3.1k. For a total of just over 10k, and thats the higher end. And thats against a glassy build, usually.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    I love seeing mesmers complain about any class lol I was in arena couple nights ago playing spellbreaker and a mirage walked up and bursted more than 3/4 of my 19+k/3000 toughness hp in literally a sec lol and had he wanted to could have done it from stealth and they complain about other classes burst? Cmon get outa here.

    I've never been a defender of Power Mesmer's burst.

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    https://imgur.com/gallery/3M6q6CU
    not the biggest stab I got boomed by, not the lowest.
    This is from today, take whatever you will from the screen, I was slow so I died

    I mean, that seems about right. A decent amount of burst, but even on a squishy target far from a one-shot. Given that its done by a glass build that pretty much is only good for burst, about the damage Id want it to do. Its lower than other burst builds (by quite a lot), but thief does still have their signature skill, shortbow 5, to give them inherent value that other burst builds (like shatter Mes) lack.

    It's a 14k burst, only 7.5k is coming from the Backstab and the rest is coming from multicasting Mug plus the Life Siphon traits. You guys don't seem to be getting the fact that Mug+Shadow Arts is almost doubling your burst capacity.

    First of all, the hell is "multicasting mug" supposed to mean. You get it once, and it hits for 1k. You never get a 14k burst except on the squishiest target with the glassiest build. The typical burst is 7-9k, depending on how much toughness the enemy has. Which is fine.

    Multicasting=casting multiple skills at once= casting a different skill (backstab) and then casting steal+the life siphons to land multiple attacks at the same time.

    Ah, thats what you mean. Just ... overlapping skills. Usually you just call it that, we also call it that when Mesmers get like 3 skills at the same time. But I digress, the damage is still much lower than you claim it is. Something you can see when watching any videos of people playing the build.

    This "bUt tHe bAcKsTaB Is oNlY SeVeN ThOuSaNd dAmAgE" game you two are playing when you can plainly see from that screenshot another 5.5k damage on top of the back stab which all lands at the same time due to the instant cast nature of Mug and the bonus damage nature of the Shadow Arts life siphon trait is tiresome and deliberately disingenuous.

    Especially since Life Steal like Shadow Siphoning+Leeching Venoms ignore armor.

    Except thats not 5.5k. Not even close. Lets go over them. If Backstab does 7k damage, then mug will do, roughly, 1.7k. Also if the Life Steal traits ignore armour (which I suspected), then I can safely say 2 instances of Leeching Venom do 414 each, and Shadow Siphoning does 600. So, in reality it does 3.1k. For a total of just over 10k, and thats the higher end. And thats against a glassy build, usually.

    "Don't believe you lying eyes showing a 7.5k backstab and a 2860 damage steal"

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2020

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    Outside of the leeching Venoms, how does shadow arts boost thief damage?

    See below. Let's not ignore bolded there.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    This "bUt tHe bAcKsTaB Is oNlY SeVeN ThOuSaNd dAmAgE" game you two are playing when you can plainly see from that screenshot another 5.5k damage on top of the back stab which all lands at the same time due to the instant cast nature of Mug and the bonus damage nature of the Shadow Arts life siphon trait is tiresome and deliberately disingenuous.
    Especially since Life Steal like Shadow Siphoning+Leeching Venoms ignore armor.

    This

    and This are fair assessments.

    Don't die on this hill. I'd rather the shadow arts shave than anything else at this time, especially because it has that same power mes burst flavor.

    They stacked stealth before that chain.

    I can see they are not running rending shade.

    Cloaked in shadow gm instead.

    Looks like after stacking stealth they engaged with shadow shot and backstab canceled the attack.

    We are moving out of instant territory.

    Steal came after backstab otherwise they would not have landed it, maybe they just wanted plasma.

    Still without a possible fear, the follow up attacks, and looking at the window and their down health, some of this damage happened after they were down, I'll assume it was when they stole to preserve their own life.

    I'll assume they fought for a bit, thief stacked in smoke screen and attempted a successful burst.

    So the higher damage would make sense because lower health would mean more damage.

    It was probably closer of a fight then the screen would show.

    The siphon has been there, but if they want to take away the free stacks they should give the recharge decrease for slots back.

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
    My Daredevil build after the big patch

  • Odik.4587Odik.4587 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2020

    I'm done folks. Staying away from this s**t hole

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2020

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    It was probably closer of a fight then the screen would show.

    Probably, but even if lead attacks was a factor or there was a skirmish beforehand, the fact remains that the damage array there is centered on backstab and mug, both of which are untelegraphed attacks.

    I don't know how that's going to look post patch, but if it's anywhere close the devs will have absolutely no problem laying flat damage coeff nerfs on us if D/P makes a resurgence.

    The siphon has been there, but if they want to take away the free stacks they should give the recharge decrease for slots back.

    This is fine. Just noting I am fully prepared to jettison that before having weapon coeff. toyed with even further. We don't need -specifically that- kind of damage delivery right now. If you want to put a venom on to get those leeches you should do that.

    [Charr Noises]
    [I play every class!]
    [Fight me in the arena anytime!]

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    If Math shows something to be impossible, its impossible. So if you show something that is impossible, that means something is up. I dont know what, but I know that the damage you have shown is impossible.

    Quoting wall of text isnt nice uk? I tested on that mesmer countless amount of backstabs. If he wouldnt wear boots steal would hit for 3k instead. Backstabs ranged from 10.200 up to 11.200 (all recorded, will upload and give you a link for 500g, 13 minutes of it xD or shorter version), couldnt reproduce this 11.7 tho. I dont know/interested in that "math" but mesmer armor is 1888, just letting you know. Bring a friend to do the same (if you have any).Thread isnt about backstab even but after pointing out I clearly can do more than 9k you accuse me in being a liar, how nice of you :astonished: .

    So it is. I mustve had a rune that gave a bit of toughness on my Ele. That makes a difference of 1% damage. Not even enough to matter in the scale of damage fluctuations. But yes, it doesnt work. In fact, let me go through the exact math to show why it doesnt work. The full damage formula. So, its ((Weapon Strength]*(Power)*(Attack Coefficient)/(Enemy Armor))*damage multipliers. So, with steal granting 3 might, which is 90 power, and an activated Assassin's Signet, the thief will at that point have 2765 power (using scholars). Daggers Weapon Strength in PvP is 950 at max. Backstabs coefficient is 2.4. So the base one we have is 2680*950*2.4/1888=3339 damage. Now ontop of that we get damage multipliers. Thankfully, the build makes it easy for us, as it doesnt have too many. Lets see. Steal applies 3 condis, so you get 6% from Exposed weakness and 3% from Sigil of Compounding. One of those condis is Vulnerability, so thats 5% there. Scholar gives you 5%, and Lead Attack gives you 9. And then we have critting, which gives you 102% extra damage. So, that gives us 3339*1.06*1.03*1.09*1.05*1.05*2.02=8849. Thats it. Thats the highest damage your backstab could have done in that situation. Note: Its about 2-3k short of the damage you claim it has. And thats with Scholars. So, as I said. Shenanigans.

    I found your issue, bolded it ;)
    kitten, savage typos.
    tldr : on paper its one thing, in game is another. Either your calculations are wrong or BS does more damage than it should. Pick 1.

    He is missing https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Even_the_Odds
    5 stacks of might, other then that I dont see anything wrong.

    I dont really bother to read his walls tbh.
    I even stated that I did it in combat and it had (as follows on screen there pistol5 into HS) into BS with meta build, not from stealthign out of combat. While it was out of combat it was around 9400, in combat it was 10.2k-11.2k. Which is HIGHER than his stated "no way it can be more than 9k". I have video where I countless amount of times stab mesmer and even did the same when he was missing his boots.

    Ah yes, the best response to math that proves that what youre trying to claim is thoroughly wrong. Ignore it. Oh well, you werent honest to begin with, so I guess math wasnt going to convince you either, but everyone else can see that the math proves what youre trying to claim to be impossible. All thanks to the power of Math.

    I'm not sure even if you are trolling anymore tbh.
    "Look math says it can hit more than 8.8k"
    I log in the game hit 9.4-9.7k ooc and up to 11.2k in combat. Which you refuse to do because you have no friends and strangers arent willing to help you?
    You with a foam in mouth "you are liar". - Me - what?

    Let me correct you. It cant hit more than 8.8k, unless you involve shenanigans. There are a number of ways to increase it. Take off armour to lower defense rating (And the armor stat as a result). Obtain 25 might stacks. Stack Lead Attacks, switch to Executioner, get the target below 50% and then do the burst. Basically, all you need to do is find a way to add 27% damage to the burst. Its doable, but you pretty much have to fabricate, create a specific scenario just to obtain the damage number you want to show. Which is dishonest. I dont know which method you used. But I can safely say, you used one of them.

    So, you accusing me in making it up because I cant show 2 perspectives at once? If he would take armor off steal damage would skyrocket which doesnt happen.
    FYI lead attacks is a thief minor trait and somehow illegal to count on ? Sadly for you my stab was ~9400 and it was first try without trying more. Even without a single "lead attacks" stack

    Im accusing you of fabricating a situation because the damage you show is impossible without it. And it would increase, but not skyrocket. Specifically, unequip all but the pants, and through sheer coencidence, you get 29% extra damage. Just about how much extra you needed to achieve your numbers. But I digress. And I included Lead Attack in my calculations. 9%, from BP + HS. For the record, even if you stacked it to 15% it would still be 20% short. Thats why I said stack lead attacks and swap to Executioner.

    Also I know youre trying to deflect, but as I have mentioned multiple times, I have tried it in combat. I used the little arena in HotM, and the people there, to try it out. And I hit it on a bunch of targets in a bunch of situations. However, unlike you I did it honestly, without trying to fabricate a situation to get the numbers I want. As I said, the highest I could get was just over 9k, on a glass thief with Executioner and Eagle active. I also just showed that that perfectly lines up with the math. Which further proves that you were trying to get as high a damage number as possible, whatever method of fabrication you used.

    "Fabricate" ? Wasnt it you saying its impossible to reach more than 9k backstab ? I did it "honest" without people boosting my possible damage with might stacks/vulnerability/banners etc and ofc it was on light armor (heck, even 10k on daredevil) . I cant imagine how using "pistol5 into hs-steal->backstab" can be fabricated/unfair by your standarts? Or "not being honest" ? Just, what? It would not be honest if I'd took critical strikes and claim I had shadowarts.
    Give me a reason to make a youtube channel and upload it there except your nonsense "you are not honest but I am".
    Its so simple, I took current meta build and hit a mesmer (could be any light armored class wearing no toughness amulet/rune) and slap them higher than 9k as you claim to be impossible.
    With a huge facepalm and no faith in hoomans goin sleep. You are such a time waste dude, not even funny

    Impossible in the normal scenario. Its doable if the enemy took off their chest armour and boots, but no real enemy would do that. It might be possible with 25 stacks of might (not sure, didnt do the math), but a thief wont hit 25 stacks of might. Might be possible with 20 extra stacks of vulnerability (youd need a bit more but one extra condi should be enough), but you wont get 25 stacks on enemies. And yes, even on light armour, way too high. I already did the math, I wont repeat myself. And as I pointed out, BP -> HS is still 29% damage short of achieving the number you claim you achieved. As for the option of taking CS, well, I imagine you figured itd be hard to explain why your stealth attack didnt proc Shadow Siphoning.

    Look I dont care if you upload a video or not, I already know shenanigans were abound, the evidence shows it. But, here is the fun part. Just to check, I got help from a friendly Ele in the HotM arena. It got a bit messy, there was an annoying Rev who kept trying to attack us (what a prick), but I got it done. Guess what the damage was? If you guessed "well about 8.8k without Executioner multiplier", you are absolutely correct. Here we go. Now, its a bit messy. And Unfortunately, I forgot that I didnt take off Executioner, and he did drop below 50%. However, thankfully thats easily fixed. You simply take the damage I got, and divide it by 1.2. 10524/1.2=8770 damage. All exactly as I said. So then, whats your explanation for how you mysteriously got nearly 30% more damage with the exact same (minus the executioner, my bad on that) damage?

  • @Shao.7236 said:
    If one can evade spam safely there's no reason to reward it so much. That's why Escapist needs it's ICD increased to 2 or 3 seconds, in the current patch that is.

    Digress until the new patch drop to see if evade spamming will even be viable anyway.

    What really needs to be addressed right now is the inability to avoid Stealth Attacks. Those need reveals upon channeling in at around ¾ so that people have a reactive chance. Those are always guaranteed damage at a random time, even Stealth Attack from a burst mes are more fair though they could use a reveal too for the more casual/laggy players.

    I actually feel like internal cds on thief have always been insane. Let’s just at some in their original state- instant reflexes- 40 sec cd, allowing for it to be up by the time you can rotate from home to far, pain response- 10 sec cd, allowing for burst condition clear in the time it takes to swap targets, upper hand- 2 secs allowing perma regen which it still does and initiative every other time you attack a target. These old cds basically meant that they were always up when u needed them and now that damage is lower they are still decent and let’s look at current ones. Feline grace 5 sec vigor effectively every second like kitten even the nerfed one inc still has perms vigor and isn’t that op? Ef also has a 1 sec cd for 1 condition clear and heal, isn’t that at least as good as pain response was in a condition meta? Maybe better actually. There’s also the stun break one, which is decent and SEq which gave a second steal every 20secs and now is different but basically the same with less burst and since steal is one of the skills in the game that must be really good right? But hey let’s buff steal more with improv right?
    Internal cds are nuts on thief so is stealth burst and sustain

  • @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    Unless thief is nerfed to the point it is no longer a threat there will be this type of thief hate due to their rogue like design, I find it funny a class designed as mesmer is throws most the hate at thief haha.
    Good example: I play power dp thief and do high burst and its "oh ur playing a broken build with to high of burst and stealth access" trash thief etc etc. I've been playing a totally made up dp condi build that has low burst and slow ramp up and still get same shade thrown at me " oh OP condi thief" " trash thief" when I down them lol. Unless u lose the fight u will always get that kind of shade thrown at u especially the trash thief part which ull get even when they down u lol.

    To be fair, imo the current nigh' permastealth d/p build is very noob-proof. You could know kitten about thief as a class and still do good with it. Which is probably why you see so many ppl playing it.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    Unless thief is nerfed to the point it is no longer a threat there will be this type of thief hate due to their rogue like design, I find it funny a class designed as mesmer is throws most the hate at thief haha.
    Good example: I play power dp thief and do high burst and its "oh ur playing a broken build with to high of burst and stealth access" trash thief etc etc. I've been playing a totally made up dp condi build that has low burst and slow ramp up and still get same shade thrown at me " oh OP condi thief" " trash thief" when I down them lol. Unless u lose the fight u will always get that kind of shade thrown at u especially the trash thief part which ull get even when they down u lol.

    To be fair, imo the current nigh' permastealth d/p build is very noob-proof. You could know kitten about thief as a class and still do good with it. Which is probably why you see so many ppl playing it.

    this is why you see some many thiefs in general.
    no matter how bad you are you can always fall back on moving between nodes :D

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    I love seeing mesmers complain about any class lol I was in arena couple nights ago playing spellbreaker and a mirage walked up and bursted more than 3/4 of my 19+k/3000 toughness hp in literally a sec lol and had he wanted to could have done it from stealth and they complain about other classes burst? Cmon get outa here.

    I've never been a defender of Power Mesmer's burst.

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    https://imgur.com/gallery/3M6q6CU
    not the biggest stab I got boomed by, not the lowest.
    This is from today, take whatever you will from the screen, I was slow so I died

    I mean, that seems about right. A decent amount of burst, but even on a squishy target far from a one-shot. Given that its done by a glass build that pretty much is only good for burst, about the damage Id want it to do. Its lower than other burst builds (by quite a lot), but thief does still have their signature skill, shortbow 5, to give them inherent value that other burst builds (like shatter Mes) lack.

    It's a 14k burst, only 7.5k is coming from the Backstab and the rest is coming from multicasting Mug plus the Life Siphon traits. You guys don't seem to be getting the fact that Mug+Shadow Arts is almost doubling your burst capacity.

    First of all, the hell is "multicasting mug" supposed to mean. You get it once, and it hits for 1k. You never get a 14k burst except on the squishiest target with the glassiest build. The typical burst is 7-9k, depending on how much toughness the enemy has. Which is fine.

    Multicasting=casting multiple skills at once= casting a different skill (backstab) and then casting steal+the life siphons to land multiple attacks at the same time.

    Ah, thats what you mean. Just ... overlapping skills. Usually you just call it that, we also call it that when Mesmers get like 3 skills at the same time. But I digress, the damage is still much lower than you claim it is. Something you can see when watching any videos of people playing the build.

    This "bUt tHe bAcKsTaB Is oNlY SeVeN ThOuSaNd dAmAgE" game you two are playing when you can plainly see from that screenshot another 5.5k damage on top of the back stab which all lands at the same time due to the instant cast nature of Mug and the bonus damage nature of the Shadow Arts life siphon trait is tiresome and deliberately disingenuous.

    Especially since Life Steal like Shadow Siphoning+Leeching Venoms ignore armor.

    Except thats not 5.5k. Not even close. Lets go over them. If Backstab does 7k damage, then mug will do, roughly, 1.7k. Also if the Life Steal traits ignore armour (which I suspected), then I can safely say 2 instances of Leeching Venom do 414 each, and Shadow Siphoning does 600. So, in reality it does 3.1k. For a total of just over 10k, and thats the higher end. And thats against a glassy build, usually.

    "Don't believe you lying eyes showing a 7.5k backstab and a 2860 damage steal"

    I mean as I said, thats not possible. Well let me elaborate. Mug does 60% of Backstabs damage when Backstab doesnt crit. With a crit backstab, that would reduce to 30%, which is itself already lower than 2860 for 7.5k. However, the distance between the 2 gets bigger, because Steal applies a number of things alongside its damage. Specifically, 3 conditions, one of which is 5 stacks of vulnerability, and 3 might. Mugs damage does not benefit from these. Backstab does. In total these are, lets see, 1.03*1.06*1.05 and whatever the might is, which is so little Im not going to calculate it. This increases backstabs damage by another 15% relative to mug. Meaning Mug instead does about 50% of backstabs damage without a crit, decreasing to 25% with a crit. 25% of 7500 is 1875. Not 2860.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    I love seeing mesmers complain about any class lol I was in arena couple nights ago playing spellbreaker and a mirage walked up and bursted more than 3/4 of my 19+k/3000 toughness hp in literally a sec lol and had he wanted to could have done it from stealth and they complain about other classes burst? Cmon get outa here.

    I've never been a defender of Power Mesmer's burst.

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    https://imgur.com/gallery/3M6q6CU
    not the biggest stab I got boomed by, not the lowest.
    This is from today, take whatever you will from the screen, I was slow so I died

    I mean, that seems about right. A decent amount of burst, but even on a squishy target far from a one-shot. Given that its done by a glass build that pretty much is only good for burst, about the damage Id want it to do. Its lower than other burst builds (by quite a lot), but thief does still have their signature skill, shortbow 5, to give them inherent value that other burst builds (like shatter Mes) lack.

    It's a 14k burst, only 7.5k is coming from the Backstab and the rest is coming from multicasting Mug plus the Life Siphon traits. You guys don't seem to be getting the fact that Mug+Shadow Arts is almost doubling your burst capacity.

    First of all, the hell is "multicasting mug" supposed to mean. You get it once, and it hits for 1k. You never get a 14k burst except on the squishiest target with the glassiest build. The typical burst is 7-9k, depending on how much toughness the enemy has. Which is fine.

    Multicasting=casting multiple skills at once= casting a different skill (backstab) and then casting steal+the life siphons to land multiple attacks at the same time.

    Ah, thats what you mean. Just ... overlapping skills. Usually you just call it that, we also call it that when Mesmers get like 3 skills at the same time. But I digress, the damage is still much lower than you claim it is. Something you can see when watching any videos of people playing the build.

    This "bUt tHe bAcKsTaB Is oNlY SeVeN ThOuSaNd dAmAgE" game you two are playing when you can plainly see from that screenshot another 5.5k damage on top of the back stab which all lands at the same time due to the instant cast nature of Mug and the bonus damage nature of the Shadow Arts life siphon trait is tiresome and deliberately disingenuous.

    Especially since Life Steal like Shadow Siphoning+Leeching Venoms ignore armor.

    Except thats not 5.5k. Not even close. Lets go over them. If Backstab does 7k damage, then mug will do, roughly, 1.7k. Also if the Life Steal traits ignore armour (which I suspected), then I can safely say 2 instances of Leeching Venom do 414 each, and Shadow Siphoning does 600. So, in reality it does 3.1k. For a total of just over 10k, and thats the higher end. And thats against a glassy build, usually.

    "Don't believe you lying eyes showing a 7.5k backstab and a 2860 damage steal"

    I mean as I said, thats not possible. Well let me elaborate. Mug does 60% of Backstabs damage when Backstab doesnt crit. With a crit backstab, that would reduce to 30%, which is itself already lower than 2860 for 7.5k. However, the distance between the 2 gets bigger, because Steal applies a number of things alongside its damage. Specifically, 3 conditions, one of which is 5 stacks of vulnerability, and 3 might. Mugs damage does not benefit from these. Backstab does. In total these are, lets see, 1.03*1.06*1.05 and whatever the might is, which is so little Im not going to calculate it. This increases backstabs damage by another 15% relative to mug. Meaning Mug instead does about 50% of backstabs damage without a crit, decreasing to 25% with a crit. 25% of 7500 is 1875. Not 2860.

    so what you are saying is that I went out of my way to fabricate screenshot of me getting bursted so that mug deals 400 damage then its supposed to?
    I have a better idea.
    Watch the screenshot again, THINK. Take 2 secs, Watch it again, FOCUS on it.
    when you finally find it, come here and apologise for calling me a liar. And better yet, apologise to that O something guy you were accusing of lying too.