Nerf Thief

[storm.3120]

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:All I see in this thread is Mesmers and Necromancers reminding us they hate thief.Log in to talk to few people and absolutely everyone hate thieves. OP class getting the hate, reminds me...something purple...Your arrival at mesmer thread proves that you hate mesmers as well, especially with bs you wrote there.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1150025/#Comment_1150025

OP explained why it should get a nerf and your best argument is "they are just hate my main, its fine" ?never having honest intentionsBiased thief mains in this thread

I made valid arguments, not just qq.They are valid only in your biased thiefmain head. I believe my and his arguments are way more valid than yours.More than half the claims in this thread are straight lies lmao.And where is this lie are you talking about ? I can start a discussion about you lying in that mesmer thread that I mentioned if you wish.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Odik.4587 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:All I see in this thread is Mesmers and Necromancers reminding us they hate thief.Log in to talk to few people and absolutely everyone hate thieves. OP class getting the hate, reminds me...something purple...Your arrival at mesmer thread proves that you hate mesmers as well, especially with bs you wrote there.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1150025/#Comment_1150025

OP explained why it should get a nerf and your best argument is "they are just hate my main, its fine" ?never having honest intentionsBiased thief mains in this thread

I made valid arguments, not just qq.They are valid only in your biased thiefmain head. I believe my and his arguments are way more valid than yours.More than half the claims in this thread are straight lies lmao.And where is this lie are you talking about ? I can start a discussion about you lying in that mesmer thread that I mentioned if you wish.

Haha u calling a thief player bias is to funny.

[mortrialus.3062]

@saerni.2584 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@saerni.2584 said:I’ll quibble with your analysis of Smoke Screen by saying that the radius should probably be nerfed to 200 and the cooldown set to a standard 30 seconds. Reflect is better than absorb when it comes to projectiles and the pulsing blind is vulnerable to resistance or fast attacks (usually under quickness) that hit between blind pulses. You can also cover your important skills with a small cooldown ability to clear the blind before using the skill you need to hit (not ideal but possible). I’d also point out you can wait it out as they are locked into standing in the field if using it defensively.Resistance is a pretty unique boon that very few can get, not an argument in its defense.Reflect seems to be better? Not really when it comes to classes with a stealth access, he is big winner here. Cant be punished with ranged pressure and cover huge space."clear blind with smol attack first!" to get another pulse of it right after or thief would either rupt you with headshot(and prolonging/applying another blind) or become invisible with HS and gl to land anything.His analysis is very accurate

Reflect makes your attacks bounce back (if projectile based). So it is categorically better.

Reflect is stronger than projectile destruction, but countering both melee and ranged across an entire conquest node is better than countering just ranged.

[Leonidrex.5649]

https://imgur.com/gallery/3M6q6CUnot the biggest stab I got boomed by, not the lowest.This is from today, take whatever you will from the screen, I was slow so I died

[UNOwen.7132]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:So let me get this strait here. Thief right now can do a huge burst with dp and follow up with said current dps. After patch the burst is getting lowered as a classes are but hp and toughness remain the same leading to longer fights which thief doesnt really excell at but things are going to be the same cuz the dps nerfs were blanket?I could see if base hp and tough ess were taking hits but as far as I know their not which is a significant factor no?

Perma stealth build that is currently bursting for 14-16k damage from stealth is going down to 12-14k in a balance patch where healing, protection, mobility, and active mitigation for everyone else is getting nerfed by 30-60%. Thief players think their class is being over nerfed.

I dont know where you got this idea of 14-16k bursts, but D/P does not burst

nearly

that hard. Hell it doesnt even burst for 12-14k right now. It bursts for 7-8k. Which goes down to 4.5-5.5k burst. On a super glassy build with minimal defenses and

very

low DPS after the initial burst. I dont know why you think its getting away lightly, when in truth, its probably getting hit worse than most builds. Because not all damage reductions are equal. A burst build gets a lot worse after a 30% damage reduction than a bunker build or a skirmisher build.

It's not just Backstab.

I've seen backstab hit for anywhere between 6-9k damage on a crit. This is overlapped with Mug for 2.5k damage multicasted on top of the burst. Both of these proc Leeching Venoms if they've stacked in stealth, which they almost certainly have. This adds up to another 1k damage. Backstab also procs Shadow Siphoning for another 600 damage. Both parts of the double strike come out in 0.25 seconds after the backstab+mug combo. These will both do about 1.1k+1.1k damage. These will also both proc Leeching Venoms for another 1k damage.

6-9000+2,500+600+1000+1100+1100+1000 =13,300-16,300 damage with even less of a tell than a mesmer greatsword burst.

Ok Im gonna have to correct your damage on several points here. First, Backstab will usually hit in the 5-7k area. 9k is on glass builds, and we dont have many of those in the meta. Second, if Backstab is hitting for 6-9k, Mug is

not

hitting for 2.5k. Itll be hitting for about 1.5-2k. Leeching Venoms will only hit for 800, and Double Strike is a lot slower (Total time for attack sequence is once every 1.68 seconds, indicating that double strike, which takes up about 30%, is about half a second), and hits less hard (It hits for exactly 1/4 of backstabs damage in total, so if backstab is hitting for 5-7k, itll be hitting for 1.25k-1.75k).

So if we adjust the damage properly, its 5000-7000+1500+500+800+1250-1750+800=9850-12350 damage. And thats with me using the higher values for Leeching Venom, Mug and Shadow Siphoning. Not a big difference though. And thats if you include Double Strike in the burst which personally I dont, but youre free to, thats a matter of opinion.

And now, to compare it to GS burst from Mesmer. First, it doesnt have less of a tell, because both of them have the same tell. None. In both cases the entire damage of the burst happens out of stealth in .2 seconds, which is faster than human reaction time (and in the case of Mesmer might or might not be backed up by a stun). Now of course, GS burst is a lot higher. Thats not surprising, GS burst has a longer cooldown and requires more time between attempts, so it has to. Mind you, its not the bursts damage or the ability to react to it that has made Shatter Mesmer fall off. Its the fact that its map mobility is frankly pathetic nowadays. Portal aint what it used to be.

I literally just used the Assassin Signet burst combo on the medium target golem and those were the numbers I got and used when making that post.

I did the same thing, but only to check the damage ratios. Though that being said, I did the same thing, and my backstab did not exceed 6.5k, so Im not sure where you got 9k from.

I get 9k from being hit by them.

In that case you must be playing glass, they must be playing glass (so Berserker instead of Marauder and Scholar instead of Eagle, and quite possibly dropping SA for CS. Because otherwise, 9k isnt achievable.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Shao.7236 said:If one can evade spam safely there's no reason to reward it so much. That's why Escapist needs it's ICD increased to 2 or 3 seconds, in the current patch that is.

Digress until the new patch drop to see if evade spamming will even be viable anyway.

What really needs to be addressed right now is the inability to avoid Stealth Attacks. Those need reveals upon channeling in at around ¾ so that people have a reactive chance. Those are always guaranteed damage at a random time, even Stealth Attack from a burst mes are more fair though they could use a reveal too for the more casual/laggy players.

First of all, Stealth Attacks are too niche as is. It took years for us to get any build using them. Let people react to stealth out of combat better, but in-combat its fine. And no, Mesmers out of stealth burst isnt more fair. Its just as undodgable. Literally, youd need reaction time that is faster than the fastest possible human reaction time to react to GS shatter burst out of stealth.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@"Leonidrex.5649" said:https://imgur.com/gallery/3M6q6CUnot the biggest stab I got boomed by, not the lowest.This is from today, take whatever you will from the screen, I was slow so I died

And? I play a full out power build and backstabs only ever one shot glass builds and only if they have no defensive boons running as I usually run trick trait. Other than that if the players not glass build they have half or almost just under half their hp left and can react buy re healing somtimes all the damage or returning some heavy blows back either way having time to counterplay. After this patch thief's burst was lowered significantly and hp etc were not changed on any class so one shot backstabbing will not exist anymore so I donno why anyone would complain about it.

[UNOwen.7132]

@"Leonidrex.5649" said:https://imgur.com/gallery/3M6q6CUnot the biggest stab I got boomed by, not the lowest.This is from today, take whatever you will from the screen, I was slow so I died

I mean, that seems about right. A decent amount of burst, but even on a squishy target far from a one-shot. Given that its done by a glass build that pretty much is only good for burst, about the damage Id want it to do. Its lower than other burst builds (by quite a lot), but thief does still have their signature skill, shortbow 5, to give them inherent value that other burst builds (like shatter Mes) lack.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

I love seeing mesmers complain about any class lol I was in arena couple nights ago playing spellbreaker and a mirage walked up and bursted more than 3/4 of my 19+k/3000 toughness hp in literally a sec lol and had he wanted to could have done it from stealth and they complain about other classes burst? Cmon get outa here.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:I love seeing mesmers complain about any class lol I was in arena couple nights ago playing spellbreaker and a mirage walked up and bursted more than 3/4 of my 19+k/3000 toughness hp in literally a sec lol and had he wanted to could have done it from stealth and they complain about other classes burst? Cmon get outa here.

I know the combo.gs4-> gs2->blink->f3->mantra->f1->gs3thats 7 abilities, if anything its sad that he can land all 7 and ONLY do 3/4 of your HP.

EDITmesmers damage is not the issue, its the fact that they can overlap several skills over eachother, becouse almost everything hits with a delay.if I use gs4 then follow up with gs3 and then shatter, you get hit by 3 skills in the same frame for big damage. and people dont even realise that you got hit by 3 skills and not 1 or 2. for every mesmer that burst me for 3/4 HP I had 10 warriors that did 1/2 my HP with lucky 4x crit gs3 spin ( 8s cd btw ).

[UNOwen.7132]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:I love seeing mesmers complain about any class lol I was in arena couple nights ago playing spellbreaker and a mirage walked up and bursted more than 3/4 of my 19+k/3000 toughness hp in literally a sec lol and had he wanted to could have done it from stealth and they complain about other classes burst? Cmon get outa here.

I know the combo.gs4-> gs2->blink->f3->mantra->f1->gs3thats 7 abilities, if anything its sad that he can land all 7 and ONLY do 3/4 of your HP.

EDITmesmers damage is not the issue, its the fact that they can overlap several skills over eachother, becouse almost everything hits with a delay.if I use gs4 then follow up with gs3 and then shatter, you get hit by 3 skills in the same frame for big damage. and people dont even realise that you got hit by 3 skills and not 1 or 2. for every mesmer that burst me for 3/4 HP I had 10 warriors that did 1/2 my HP with lucky 4x crit gs3 spin ( 8s cd btw ).

First of all, if a Warrior got you to half health off of just that one spin, then the Mesmers you faced shouldve all oneshot you (well beyond even, should be something around 1.7 times your health they did in damage). Second of all, how did you get hit by 4 impacts of GS3. You dont have the chonky hitbox that PvE enemies have, so you had to walk alongside it, and be fast enough in doing so.

[saerni.2584]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@saerni.2584 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@saerni.2584 said:I’ll quibble with your analysis of Smoke Screen by saying that the radius should probably be nerfed to 200 and the cooldown set to a standard 30 seconds. Reflect is better than absorb when it comes to projectiles and the pulsing blind is vulnerable to resistance or fast attacks (usually under quickness) that hit between blind pulses. You can also cover your important skills with a small cooldown ability to clear the blind before using the skill you need to hit (not ideal but possible). I’d also point out you can wait it out as they are locked into standing in the field if using it defensively.Resistance is a pretty unique boon that very few can get, not an argument in its defense.Reflect seems to be better? Not really when it comes to classes with a stealth access, he is big winner here. Cant be punished with ranged pressure and cover huge space."clear blind with smol attack first!" to get another pulse of it right after or thief would either rupt you with headshot(and prolonging/applying another blind) or become invisible with HS and gl to land anything.His analysis is very accurate

Reflect makes your attacks bounce back (if projectile based). So it is categorically better.

Reflect is stronger than projectile destruction, but countering both melee and ranged across an entire conquest node is better than countering just ranged.

I don’t think we disagree on possibly toning down the radius slightly. At least as far as covering the node is concerned. I think we disagree in that a blind field isn’t, imo, a 100% counter to melee and half the blinds come from the enemy using projectile combos in the field.

On Legacy you can do a Smoke Screen on mid node and the other team can contest the node without standing in the field and getting blinded. This makes it pretty useful but not overwhelming as an advantage. I’d like it if more nodes were larger and, again, if the radius was slightly reduced. But I do want to note that trap DH can drop a lot of DPS traps and deny those same small nodes for a similar amount of time (basically you shouldn’t stand on the node if that’s going on without some kind of heavy mitigation). Maybe we should also be toning down all of the abilities that can fully cover a node?

If your team plays well they can use it to cover a res or stomp or just use it to get a more secure spot temporarily to engage a melee fighter. If the other team plays well they can kite around the spot or use unblockable or AoE from outside the field to punish the player(s) standing in the field.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Unless thief is nerfed to the point it is no longer a threat there will be this type of thief hate due to their rogue like design, I find it funny a class designed as mesmer is throws most the hate at thief haha.Good example: I play power dp thief and do high burst and its "oh ur playing a broken build with to high of burst and stealth access" trash thief etc etc. I've been playing a totally made up dp condi build that has low burst and slow ramp up and still get same shade thrown at me " oh OP condi thief" " trash thief" when I down them lol. Unless u lose the fight u will always get that kind of shade thrown at u especially the trash thief part which ull get even when they down u lol.

[storm.3120]

@"UNOwen.7132" said:In that case you must be playing glass, they must be playing glass (so Berserker instead of Marauder and Scholar instead of Eagle, and quite possibly dropping SA for CS. Because otherwise, 9k isnt achievable.https://imgur.com/a/MxS1UWEFirst dps log on rabid amu undead runes, needless to say he is almost dead anyway?The second on marauder pistol 5+2 into BS.3rd on marauder without hs'ing into backstab.Isnt achievable ? Really? (Its not my fault that numbers are inconsistent)

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:I love seeing mesmers complain about any class lol I was in arena couple nights ago playing spellbreaker and a mirage walked up and bursted more than 3/4 of my 19+k/3000 toughness hp in literally a sec lol and had he wanted to could have done it from stealth and they complain about other classes burst? Cmon get outa here.

I know the combo.gs4-> gs2->blink->f3->mantra->f1->gs3thats 7 abilities, if anything its sad that he can land all 7 and ONLY do 3/4 of your HP.

EDITmesmers damage is not the issue, its the fact that they can overlap several skills over eachother, becouse almost everything hits with a delay.if I use gs4 then follow up with gs3 and then shatter, you get hit by 3 skills in the same frame for big damage. and people dont even realise that you got hit by 3 skills and not 1 or 2. for every mesmer that burst me for 3/4 HP I had 10 warriors that did 1/2 my HP with lucky 4x crit gs3 spin ( 8s cd btw ).

I dont care how many skills it takes if it can be completed in under a second that's a burst just like any other, quit using that as a excuse as its hitting the opponent seemingly instantly. A thief could say their burst takes 15 skill if including all the black powder, smoke screen, heart seekers, steal and finally backstab if were just throwing timeframes of burst completion out the window.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:I love seeing mesmers complain about any class lol I was in arena couple nights ago playing spellbreaker and a mirage walked up and bursted more than 3/4 of my 19+k/3000 toughness hp in literally a sec lol and had he wanted to could have done it from stealth and they complain about other classes burst? Cmon get outa here.

I know the combo.gs4-> gs2->blink->f3->mantra->f1->gs3thats 7 abilities, if anything its sad that he can land all 7 and ONLY do 3/4 of your HP.

EDITmesmers damage is not the issue, its the fact that they can overlap several skills over eachother, becouse almost everything hits with a delay.if I use gs4 then follow up with gs3 and then shatter, you get hit by 3 skills in the same frame for big damage. and people dont even realise that you got hit by 3 skills and not 1 or 2. for every mesmer that burst me for 3/4 HP I had 10 warriors that did 1/2 my HP with lucky 4x crit gs3 spin ( 8s cd btw ).

I dont care how many skills it takes if it can be completed in under a second that's a burst just like any other, quit using that as a excuse as its hitting the opponent seemingly instantly. A thief could say their burst takes 15 skill if including all the black powder, smoke screen, heart seekers, steal and finally backstab if were just throwing timeframes of burst completion out the window.

if you cant dodge 1s windup combo go play tetris and not action game.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:I love seeing mesmers complain about any class lol I was in arena couple nights ago playing spellbreaker and a mirage walked up and bursted more than 3/4 of my 19+k/3000 toughness hp in literally a sec lol and had he wanted to could have done it from stealth and they complain about other classes burst? Cmon get outa here.

I know the combo.gs4-> gs2->blink->f3->mantra->f1->gs3thats 7 abilities, if anything its sad that he can land all 7 and ONLY do 3/4 of your HP.

EDITmesmers damage is not the issue, its the fact that they can overlap several skills over eachother, becouse almost everything hits with a delay.if I use gs4 then follow up with gs3 and then shatter, you get hit by 3 skills in the same frame for big damage. and people dont even realise that you got hit by 3 skills and not 1 or 2. for every mesmer that burst me for 3/4 HP I had 10 warriors that did 1/2 my HP with lucky 4x crit gs3 spin ( 8s cd btw ).

First of all, if a Warrior got you to half health off of just that one spin, then the Mesmers you faced shouldve all oneshot you (well beyond even, should be something around 1.7 times your health they did in damage). Second of all, how did you get hit by 4 impacts of GS3. You dont have the kitten hitbox that PvE enemies have, so you had to walk alongside it, and be fast enough in doing so.

This is what I mean, unrealistic hyperbole blind bias. If a warrior gor a mesmer to half health in one whirlwind ud have to be against a structure or something. I play warrior a lot these days and even when full of might gs3 thru a mirage does not take it to half hp, 2nd their almost impossible to hard cc and u as the warrior actually built for sturdiness can in fact be taken to almost downstate by said mirage in one burst so quit complaining, ur getting outplayed by ur counter simple as that.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:I love seeing mesmers complain about any class lol I was in arena couple nights ago playing spellbreaker and a mirage walked up and bursted more than 3/4 of my 19+k/3000 toughness hp in literally a sec lol and had he wanted to could have done it from stealth and they complain about other classes burst? Cmon get outa here.

I know the combo.gs4-> gs2->blink->f3->mantra->f1->gs3thats 7 abilities, if anything its sad that he can land all 7 and ONLY do 3/4 of your HP.

EDITmesmers damage is not the issue, its the fact that they can overlap several skills over eachother, becouse almost everything hits with a delay.if I use gs4 then follow up with gs3 and then shatter, you get hit by 3 skills in the same frame for big damage. and people dont even realise that you got hit by 3 skills and not 1 or 2. for every mesmer that burst me for 3/4 HP I had 10 warriors that did 1/2 my HP with lucky 4x crit gs3 spin ( 8s cd btw ).

I dont care how many skills it takes if it can be completed in under a second that's a burst just like any other, quit using that as a excuse as its hitting the opponent seemingly instantly. A thief could say their burst takes 15 skill if including all the black powder, smoke screen, heart seekers, steal and finally backstab if were just throwing timeframes of burst completion out the window.

if you cant dodge 1s windup combo go play tetris and not action game.

Says the one doing the whining? Lmao maybe its u that should play a different game instead of whining ur class isny carrying u hard enough :)

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:I love seeing mesmers complain about any class lol I was in arena couple nights ago playing spellbreaker and a mirage walked up and bursted more than 3/4 of my 19+k/3000 toughness hp in literally a sec lol and had he wanted to could have done it from stealth and they complain about other classes burst? Cmon get outa here.

I know the combo.gs4-> gs2->blink->f3->mantra->f1->gs3thats 7 abilities, if anything its sad that he can land all 7 and ONLY do 3/4 of your HP.

EDITmesmers damage is not the issue, its the fact that they can overlap several skills over eachother, becouse almost everything hits with a delay.if I use gs4 then follow up with gs3 and then shatter, you get hit by 3 skills in the same frame for big damage. and people dont even realise that you got hit by 3 skills and not 1 or 2. for every mesmer that burst me for 3/4 HP I had 10 warriors that did 1/2 my HP with lucky 4x crit gs3 spin ( 8s cd btw ).

First of all, if a Warrior got you to half health off of just that one spin, then the Mesmers you faced shouldve all oneshot you (well beyond even, should be something around 1.7 times your health they did in damage). Second of all, how did you get hit by 4 impacts of GS3. You dont have the kitten hitbox that PvE enemies have, so you had to walk alongside it, and be fast enough in doing so.

This is what I mean, unrealistic hyperbole blind bias. If a warrior gor a mesmer to half health in one whirlwind ud have to be against a structure or something. I play warrior a lot these days and even when full of might gs3 thru a mirage does not take it to half hp, 2nd their almost impossible to hard cc and u as the warrior actually built for sturdiness can in fact be taken to almost downstate by said mirage in one burst so quit complaining, ur getting outplayed by ur counter simple as that.

delusional lolwish I was taking screenshots of all the dodges that crit me for 5kor 13k arcing slices throught 3k toughness3k/tick gs3 or all the gs4 throws for 4k/tick25might is cancer, warrior has ALOT of overtuned stat bonuses that makes their farts hit like a truck and pretending that gs3 if landed properly doesnt chunk people is simply lying.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:I love seeing mesmers complain about any class lol I was in arena couple nights ago playing spellbreaker and a mirage walked up and bursted more than 3/4 of my 19+k/3000 toughness hp in literally a sec lol and had he wanted to could have done it from stealth and they complain about other classes burst? Cmon get outa here.

I know the combo.gs4-> gs2->blink->f3->mantra->f1->gs3thats 7 abilities, if anything its sad that he can land all 7 and ONLY do 3/4 of your HP.

EDITmesmers damage is not the issue, its the fact that they can overlap several skills over eachother, becouse almost everything hits with a delay.if I use gs4 then follow up with gs3 and then shatter, you get hit by 3 skills in the same frame for big damage. and people dont even realise that you got hit by 3 skills and not 1 or 2. for every mesmer that burst me for 3/4 HP I had 10 warriors that did 1/2 my HP with lucky 4x crit gs3 spin ( 8s cd btw ).

I dont care how many skills it takes if it can be completed in under a second that's a burst just like any other, quit using that as a excuse as its hitting the opponent seemingly instantly. A thief could say their burst takes 15 skill if including all the black powder, smoke screen, heart seekers, steal and finally backstab if were just throwing timeframes of burst completion out the window.

if you cant dodge 1s windup combo go play tetris and not action game.

Says the one doing the whining? Lmao maybe its u that should play a different game instead of whining ur class isny carrying u hard enough :)

whining? oh please the wise forum warrior tell me where im whining.im not the one that failed to dodge 7 abilities and complained that it almost killed me

[UNOwen.7132]

@Odik.4587 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"Psycoprophet.8107" said:So let me get this strait here. Thief right now can do a huge burst with dp and follow up with said current dps. After patch the burst is getting lowered as a classes are but hp and toughness remain the same leading to longer fights which thief doesnt really excell at but things are going to be the same cuz the dps nerfs were blanket?I could see if base hp and tough ess were taking hits but as far as I know their not which is a significant factor no?

Perma stealth build that is currently bursting for 14-16k damage from stealth is going down to 12-14k in a balance patch where healing, protection, mobility, and active mitigation for everyone else is getting nerfed by 30-60%. Thief players think their class is being over nerfed.

I dont know where you got this idea of 14-16k bursts, but D/P does not burst

nearly

that hard. Hell it doesnt even burst for 12-14k right now. It bursts for 7-8k. Which goes down to 4.5-5.5k burst. On a super glassy build with minimal defenses and

very

low DPS after the initial burst. I dont know why you think its getting away lightly, when in truth, its probably getting hit worse than most builds. Because not all damage reductions are equal. A burst build gets a lot worse after a 30% damage reduction than a bunker build or a skirmisher build.

It's not just Backstab.

I've seen backstab hit for anywhere between 6-9k damage on a crit. This is overlapped with Mug for 2.5k damage multicasted on top of the burst. Both of these proc Leeching Venoms if they've stacked in stealth, which they almost certainly have. This adds up to another 1k damage. Backstab also procs Shadow Siphoning for another 600 damage. Both parts of the double strike come out in 0.25 seconds after the backstab+mug combo. These will both do about 1.1k+1.1k damage. These will also both proc Leeching Venoms for another 1k damage.

6-9000+2,500+600+1000+1100+1100+1000 =13,300-16,300 damage with even less of a tell than a mesmer greatsword burst.

Ok Im gonna have to correct your damage on several points here. First, Backstab will usually hit in the 5-7k area. 9k is on glass builds, and we dont have many of those in the meta. Second, if Backstab is hitting for 6-9k, Mug is

not

hitting for 2.5k. Itll be hitting for about 1.5-2k. Leeching Venoms will only hit for 800, and Double Strike is a lot slower (Total time for attack sequence is once every 1.68 seconds, indicating that double strike, which takes up about 30%, is about half a second), and hits less hard (It hits for exactly 1/4 of backstabs damage in total, so if backstab is hitting for 5-7k, itll be hitting for 1.25k-1.75k).

So if we adjust the damage properly, its 5000-7000+1500+500+800+1250-1750+800=9850-12350 damage. And thats with me using the higher values for Leeching Venom, Mug and Shadow Siphoning. Not a big difference though. And thats if you include Double Strike in the burst which personally I dont, but youre free to, thats a matter of opinion.

And now, to compare it to GS burst from Mesmer. First, it doesnt have less of a tell, because both of them have the same tell. None. In both cases the entire damage of the burst happens out of stealth in .2 seconds, which is faster than human reaction time (and in the case of Mesmer might or might not be backed up by a stun). Now of course, GS burst is a lot higher. Thats not surprising, GS burst has a longer cooldown and requires more time between attempts, so it has to. Mind you, its not the bursts damage or the ability to react to it that has made Shatter Mesmer fall off. Its the fact that its map mobility is frankly pathetic nowadays. Portal aint what it used to be.

I literally just used the Assassin Signet burst combo on the medium target golem and those were the numbers I got and used when making that post.

I did the same thing, but only to check the damage ratios. Though that being said, I did the same thing, and my backstab did not exceed 6.5k, so Im not sure where you got 9k from.

I get 9k from being hit by them.

In that case you must be playing glass, they must be playing glass (so Berserker instead of Marauder and Scholar instead of Eagle, and quite possibly dropping SA for CS. Because otherwise, 9k isnt achievable.

https://imgur.com/a/MxS1UWE

First dps log on rabid amu undead runes, needless to say he is almost dead anyway?The second on marauder pistol 5+2 into BS.3rd on marauder without hs'ing into backstab.Isnt achievable ? Really?

Ok Im not sure what Im seeing here, but just to start, how the hell do you have that much variance on the damage. If 2 and 3 are on the same target (which it seems to be), then there is no way your backstab should be doing nearly twice the damage. The same is true for steal, that one is fluctuating way too hard as well. Did they just take off their armour to lower their defense stat? Because the second one, the 6.6k damage is what you should be expecting. And 11k is just not doable without taking off armour .

[UNOwen.7132]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:I love seeing mesmers complain about any class lol I was in arena couple nights ago playing spellbreaker and a mirage walked up and bursted more than 3/4 of my 19+k/3000 toughness hp in literally a sec lol and had he wanted to could have done it from stealth and they complain about other classes burst? Cmon get outa here.

I know the combo.gs4-> gs2->blink->f3->mantra->f1->gs3thats 7 abilities, if anything its sad that he can land all 7 and ONLY do 3/4 of your HP.

EDITmesmers damage is not the issue, its the fact that they can overlap several skills over eachother, becouse almost everything hits with a delay.if I use gs4 then follow up with gs3 and then shatter, you get hit by 3 skills in the same frame for big damage. and people dont even realise that you got hit by 3 skills and not 1 or 2. for every mesmer that burst me for 3/4 HP I had 10 warriors that did 1/2 my HP with lucky 4x crit gs3 spin ( 8s cd btw ).

First of all, if a Warrior got you to half health off of just that one spin, then the Mesmers you faced shouldve all oneshot you (well beyond even, should be something around 1.7 times your health they did in damage). Second of all, how did you get hit by 4 impacts of GS3. You dont have the kitten hitbox that PvE enemies have, so you had to walk alongside it, and be fast enough in doing so.

This is what I mean, unrealistic hyperbole blind bias. If a warrior gor a mesmer to half health in one whirlwind ud have to be against a structure or something. I play warrior a lot these days and even when full of might gs3 thru a mirage does not take it to half hp, 2nd their almost impossible to hard cc and u as the warrior actually built for sturdiness can in fact be taken to almost downstate by said mirage in one burst so quit complaining, ur getting outplayed by ur counter simple as that.

delusional lolwish I was taking screenshots of all the dodges that crit me for 5kor 13k arcing slices throught 3k toughness3k/tick gs3 or all the gs4 throws for 4k/tick25might is cancer, warrior has ALOT of overtuned stat bonuses that makes their farts hit like a truck and pretending that gs3 if landed properly doesnt chunk people is simply lying.

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:I love seeing mesmers complain about any class lol I was in arena couple nights ago playing spellbreaker and a mirage walked up and bursted more than 3/4 of my 19+k/3000 toughness hp in literally a sec lol and had he wanted to could have done it from stealth and they complain about other classes burst? Cmon get outa here.

I know the combo.gs4-> gs2->blink->f3->mantra->f1->gs3thats 7 abilities, if anything its sad that he can land all 7 and ONLY do 3/4 of your HP.

EDITmesmers damage is not the issue, its the fact that they can overlap several skills over eachother, becouse almost everything hits with a delay.if I use gs4 then follow up with gs3 and then shatter, you get hit by 3 skills in the same frame for big damage. and people dont even realise that you got hit by 3 skills and not 1 or 2. for every mesmer that burst me for 3/4 HP I had 10 warriors that did 1/2 my HP with lucky 4x crit gs3 spin ( 8s cd btw ).

I dont care how many skills it takes if it can be completed in under a second that's a burst just like any other, quit using that as a excuse as its hitting the opponent seemingly instantly. A thief could say their burst takes 15 skill if including all the black powder, smoke screen, heart seekers, steal and finally backstab if were just throwing timeframes of burst completion out the window.

if you cant dodge 1s windup combo go play tetris and not action game.

Oh if only it was 1s. In truth, the combo (unless youre going full combo which is excessive) takes .2 seconds. Meaning you have .16 seconds (roughly) to react to it. Spoiler: very few people have reaction times faster than .2 seconds. Its something like .5%.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

I love how complainers use instances of high damage that are far from the common damage reached as such. Yeah warriors sure are consistently doing 5k rolls I mean I dont even attack I just roll around and down peeps right and left, i mean arnt all warriors doing that? Just killing players consistently with their 5k rolls? LolMan this kitten gets old. Just like all rifle warrior bursts are 40+k cuz hey theres a screenshot of it and I'm sure was under normal average circumstances right? Lol

[Leonidrex.5649]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:I love seeing mesmers complain about any class lol I was in arena couple nights ago playing spellbreaker and a mirage walked up and bursted more than 3/4 of my 19+k/3000 toughness hp in literally a sec lol and had he wanted to could have done it from stealth and they complain about other classes burst? Cmon get outa here.

I know the combo.gs4-> gs2->blink->f3->mantra->f1->gs3thats 7 abilities, if anything its sad that he can land all 7 and ONLY do 3/4 of your HP.

EDITmesmers damage is not the issue, its the fact that they can overlap several skills over eachother, becouse almost everything hits with a delay.if I use gs4 then follow up with gs3 and then shatter, you get hit by 3 skills in the same frame for big damage. and people dont even realise that you got hit by 3 skills and not 1 or 2. for every mesmer that burst me for 3/4 HP I had 10 warriors that did 1/2 my HP with lucky 4x crit gs3 spin ( 8s cd btw ).

First of all, if a Warrior got you to half health off of just that one spin, then the Mesmers you faced shouldve all oneshot you (well beyond even, should be something around 1.7 times your health they did in damage). Second of all, how did you get hit by 4 impacts of GS3. You dont have the kitten hitbox that PvE enemies have, so you had to walk alongside it, and be fast enough in doing so.

This is what I mean, unrealistic hyperbole blind bias. If a warrior gor a mesmer to half health in one whirlwind ud have to be against a structure or something. I play warrior a lot these days and even when full of might gs3 thru a mirage does not take it to half hp, 2nd their almost impossible to hard cc and u as the warrior actually built for sturdiness can in fact be taken to almost downstate by said mirage in one burst so quit complaining, ur getting outplayed by ur counter simple as that.

delusional lolwish I was taking screenshots of all the dodges that crit me for 5kor 13k arcing slices throught 3k toughness3k/tick gs3 or all the gs4 throws for 4k/tick25might is cancer, warrior has ALOT of overtuned stat bonuses that makes their farts hit like a truck and pretending that gs3 if landed properly doesnt chunk people is simply lying.

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:I love seeing mesmers complain about any class lol I was in arena couple nights ago playing spellbreaker and a mirage walked up and bursted more than 3/4 of my 19+k/3000 toughness hp in literally a sec lol and had he wanted to could have done it from stealth and they complain about other classes burst? Cmon get outa here.

I know the combo.gs4-> gs2->blink->f3->mantra->f1->gs3thats 7 abilities, if anything its sad that he can land all 7 and ONLY do 3/4 of your HP.

EDITmesmers damage is not the issue, its the fact that they can overlap several skills over eachother, becouse almost everything hits with a delay.if I use gs4 then follow up with gs3 and then shatter, you get hit by 3 skills in the same frame for big damage. and people dont even realise that you got hit by 3 skills and not 1 or 2. for every mesmer that burst me for 3/4 HP I had 10 warriors that did 1/2 my HP with lucky 4x crit gs3 spin ( 8s cd btw ).

I dont care how many skills it takes if it can be completed in under a second that's a burst just like any other, quit using that as a excuse as its hitting the opponent seemingly instantly. A thief could say their burst takes 15 skill if including all the black powder, smoke screen, heart seekers, steal and finally backstab if were just throwing timeframes of burst completion out the window.

if you cant dodge 1s windup combo go play tetris and not action game.

Oh if only it was 1s. In truth, the combo (unless youre going full combo which is excessive) takes .2 seconds. Meaning you have .16 seconds (roughly) to react to it. Spoiler:

very

few people have reaction times faster than .2 seconds. Its something like .5%.

we are talking about different combo.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"Psycoprophet.8107" said:So let me get this strait here. Thief right now can do a huge burst with dp and follow up with said current dps. After patch the burst is getting lowered as a classes are but hp and toughness remain the same leading to longer fights which thief doesnt really excell at but things are going to be the same cuz the dps nerfs were blanket?I could see if base hp and tough ess were taking hits but as far as I know their not which is a significant factor no?

Perma stealth build that is currently bursting for 14-16k damage from stealth is going down to 12-14k in a balance patch where healing, protection, mobility, and active mitigation for everyone else is getting nerfed by 30-60%. Thief players think their class is being over nerfed.

I dont know where you got this idea of 14-16k bursts, but D/P does not burst

nearly

that hard. Hell it doesnt even burst for 12-14k right now. It bursts for 7-8k. Which goes down to 4.5-5.5k burst. On a super glassy build with minimal defenses and

very

low DPS after the initial burst. I dont know why you think its getting away lightly, when in truth, its probably getting hit worse than most builds. Because not all damage reductions are equal. A burst build gets a lot worse after a 30% damage reduction than a bunker build or a skirmisher build.

It's not just Backstab.

I've seen backstab hit for anywhere between 6-9k damage on a crit. This is overlapped with Mug for 2.5k damage multicasted on top of the burst. Both of these proc Leeching Venoms if they've stacked in stealth, which they almost certainly have. This adds up to another 1k damage. Backstab also procs Shadow Siphoning for another 600 damage. Both parts of the double strike come out in 0.25 seconds after the backstab+mug combo. These will both do about 1.1k+1.1k damage. These will also both proc Leeching Venoms for another 1k damage.

6-9000+2,500+600+1000+1100+1100+1000 =13,300-16,300 damage with even less of a tell than a mesmer greatsword burst.

Ok Im gonna have to correct your damage on several points here. First, Backstab will usually hit in the 5-7k area. 9k is on glass builds, and we dont have many of those in the meta. Second, if Backstab is hitting for 6-9k, Mug is

not

hitting for 2.5k. Itll be hitting for about 1.5-2k. Leeching Venoms will only hit for 800, and Double Strike is a lot slower (Total time for attack sequence is once every 1.68 seconds, indicating that double strike, which takes up about 30%, is about half a second), and hits less hard (It hits for exactly 1/4 of backstabs damage in total, so if backstab is hitting for 5-7k, itll be hitting for 1.25k-1.75k).

So if we adjust the damage properly, its 5000-7000+1500+500+800+1250-1750+800=9850-12350 damage. And thats with me using the higher values for Leeching Venom, Mug and Shadow Siphoning. Not a big difference though. And thats if you include Double Strike in the burst which personally I dont, but youre free to, thats a matter of opinion.

And now, to compare it to GS burst from Mesmer. First, it doesnt have less of a tell, because both of them have the same tell. None. In both cases the entire damage of the burst happens out of stealth in .2 seconds, which is faster than human reaction time (and in the case of Mesmer might or might not be backed up by a stun). Now of course, GS burst is a lot higher. Thats not surprising, GS burst has a longer cooldown and requires more time between attempts, so it has to. Mind you, its not the bursts damage or the ability to react to it that has made Shatter Mesmer fall off. Its the fact that its map mobility is frankly pathetic nowadays. Portal aint what it used to be.

I literally just used the Assassin Signet burst combo on the medium target golem and those were the numbers I got and used when making that post.

I did the same thing, but only to check the damage ratios. Though that being said, I did the same thing, and my backstab did not exceed 6.5k, so Im not sure where you got 9k from.

I get 9k from being hit by them.

In that case you must be playing glass, they must be playing glass (so Berserker instead of Marauder and Scholar instead of Eagle, and quite possibly dropping SA for CS. Because otherwise, 9k isnt achievable.

https://imgur.com/a/MxS1UWE

First dps log on rabid amu undead runes, needless to say he is almost dead anyway?The second on marauder pistol 5+2 into BS.3rd on marauder without hs'ing into backstab.Isnt achievable ? Really?

Ok Im not sure what Im seeing here, but just to start, how the hell do you have that much variance on the damage. If 2 and 3 are on the same target (which it seems to be), then there is no way your backstab should be doing nearly twice the damage. The same is true for steal, that one is fluctuating way too hard as well. Did they just take off their armour to lower their defense stat? Because the second one, the 6.6k damage is what you should be expecting. And 11k is just not doable without taking off armour .

I wouldn't try to evaluate the screens as its shots taken with a given narrative to fit the posters complaint, non of it can be taken seriously unless it's a vid showing all the variances that let to each damage number and these screenshots show non of the above. Just like how a warrior in a average scenario isnt doing 40 k on rifle or 5k on roll consistantly under normal circumstances but I can take a screen of either stating they do. Its rather funny that posters that do this somehow think the other players don't notice the numbers that their getting on average and are gonna notice the unusual high numbers shown as common damage numbers lol. Speaks volumes I guess.