[Answered] Only 24 Builds account wide?

[PookieDaWombat.6209]

@Linken.6345 said:

@PookieDaWombat.6209 said:

@Maikimaik.1974 said:

@PookieDaWombat.6209 said:

@Maikimaik.1974 said:6 per char is just waaaay to few. Especialy if they're shared through all 3 game modes (so 2 per game mode basically, what the hell anet)

Realistically most people probably have a power and condi build on a toon, and maybe a support set up, but rarely all three and maybe two gear sets they are running with. This covers MOST players with a few outliers that go ham and think they need 4+ gear sets to swap between and 6 builds with one or two trait tweaks that make them "different" builds. For a large number of the player-base They will already have their WvW specific build, their PVP build and then 3 other slots they can play with for build variants on each character which for most will be more than enough right out the gates. The account wide build section is going to be the bigger bottleneck as people are constantly going to want copies of other people's builds and even then have 6 slots at the start to play with across your account is fine for MOST players. I'm an altaholic with three accounts and over 20 toons and even on my main account that has most of those characters the starting number of slots should be more than enough for me to play with build variety on those without needing to drop extra money.

I am usually one of the first people to lose it over silly things Anet has done in the past, but this right here is probably the most accurate "hitting the middle ground" between free added feature and monetization they have ever done. As long as the price point for additional slots isn't more than or the same as a new character slot, then this should be golden for them and is as players that want to see this game keep going in a good direction.

I don't think you understood what I was saying. Each character has a maximum of 6 template slots. 3 are free, 3 are buyable. You simply cannot have more than 6, which is, as I said, not even close to enough.

I understood completely and I posited that this was an incorrect assessment. Each character will have their standard build in WvW, and PvP, then the three free slots right out the gates. This means it can have their primary PvE build and then two others. Now, for MOST players they take the game semi seriously, they might have on any single character:

One Power based buildOne Condi based buildOne Support based build

Within those set ups they might situationally swap out a utility or a weapon, but in MOST cases only a utility will be swapped out.

Looking at an account where someone has 5 level 80 characters and probably plays 3 of them semi-regularly with one main they play most of the time, the starting free slots will more than suffice for them. Now, if they were a bit more serious about having hard a fast swap-able builds, 6 slots for those build variations is still more than enough to cover the most played/used meta builds on a given class (not including those very specific utility swaps that occur in niche situations that don't require their own build load out to be saved.) Same holds true if not truer for gear loadouts as you will find there tend to be less need for those to occur so often that you'd need more than 6 different templates just for gear swapping.

This brings us to the free 6 account wide build slots that for this person with 5 toons should be more than enough to act as "build over flow" for their most used characters. Obviously if you have a TON of alts and want to get and save builds from others to use later or just to have as additional build slots then yes, you will have to pay for those, however for MOST players in the game, they will have more than enough right out the gates for free that they can use to both get that extra st of armor out of their inventory along with the weapons they use on that armor set and will be fine with being able to quick swap to the traits and equipment when they want to switch things up.

They said you would have 3 that contained your pve, wvw and spvp builds at start not pvex3 wvw and spvp thats 5.

So are you fine with not having a build for wvw and spvp.Then sure do 3 pve builds.Better buy an extra gear equipment upgrade if your going power condi and support tho.

No, they said that you'd have three that would be populated with your WvW and PvP and PvE builds since you already have those in the game and they are ostensibly the builds you might be using the most. Ultimately though you can have you build in WvW and your PVP build, but two of those three slots can also have some other build in there other than your main PvE build. Then you will also have 6 account wide slots for free at launch as well and two free EQ slots, which i will state, again, will be more than enough for MOST players in the game on each character that they run with the option to upgrade to 6 eq and build slots on certain characters if they so choose. None of that is unreasonable as long a Anet keeps their pricing for such things in the realistic realm, which i might add is the ONLY thing that I've said thus far could really go bad for Anet if they make the extra slots too expensive.

[Maikimaik.1974]

@PookieDaWombat.6209 said:

@Maikimaik.1974 said:

@PookieDaWombat.6209 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@PookieDaWombat.6209 said:I understood completely and I posited that this was an incorrect assessment. Each character will have their standard build in WvW, and PvP, then the three free slots right out the gates. This means it can have their primary PvE build and then two others. Now, for MOST players they take the game semi seriously, they might have on any single character:

One Power based buildOne Condi based buildOne Support based build

Within those set ups they might situationally swap out a utility or a weapon, but in MOST cases only a utility will be swapped out.

Looking at an account where someone has 5 level 80 characters and probably plays 3 of them semi-regularly with one main they play most of the time, the starting free slots will more than suffice for them.

Only if they don't play WvW as well. Those use different gear than their PvE equivalent (you don't run glass in WvW). That already bumps you up to 6 different gear sets.

Now, if they were a bit more serious about having hard a fast swap-able buildsThey can;t do anything more, because 6 gear sets are already filled, and they can't have any more.

This brings us to the free 6 account wide build slots thatdon't give you more gear sets available, because they are

build

slots.

So, you were saying?

I play WvW. Have since the beginning. I've also played everything from glass to super tanky support so to say "you don't run glass in WvW" is just silly and ill-informed. Furthermore, my gear set on many of my more played toons is geared around playing in multiple game modes without a huge need to swap equipment in any major way unless i was doing a MAJOR shift (say from condi to power or to a completely different elite spec) and that does not happen as often as a very few number of players would like to try to convince those of us that have been here since day one hour one of this game's launch.

Six gear load-outs is literally more than enough for the vat majority of players in this game and this is the same thing i've been saying in this thread. You're trying to argue for a very niche group of players that think they need to have a template slot for every rune and sigil and weapon they might possibly run in a very specific scenario, and I'm saying (and have been saying) that such a thing is neither practical or realistic when looking at the overall playerbase of guild wars 2. Why is this a hard concept to grasp?

Per character having 6 EQ load out slots is more than enough for MOST players in the game. I'm talking everyone from the most casual of casuals to the most hardcore of midcore players and even some serious hardcore players that are realistic about not needing build templates for that one niche boss that requires some specific sigil to eek out that extra 1k dps, but nowhere else in the game. However instead of looking at this realistically, those few players are loosing their minds because they aren't getting 4564564 slots.

So lets take your example regarding the WvW build. Even if you build specifically to that mode, you mean to tell me the PvE variety of that build is so drastic that it requires its own set up? With vastly different weapons sigils and runes? Really? And you are trying to sell me on the fact that you'd honestly need way more than 6 eq slots to cover all the armor and weapons you need to slot for all those builds? There is no real overlap in any of them that they can be intelligently consolidated? Really? Do you honestly think that if this is the case for you that this is somehow the case for the vast majority of players in the game as it stands? Or could it be possible that you don't have a real vision into just who plays this game and how most of the players even play this game.

Ultimately there seems to be a disconnect from a lot of self proclaimed HARDCORE players that think the offering is way too little, and perhaps down the line they might expand those slot offerings to 10 per character, but honestly, this game doesn't have nearly the build diversity of its predecessor and too many of these numbers being thrown around are absurd and only serve to weaken your argument for more space, not help it.

There's still no reason to limit them to only 6.

No, the reason to limit it to 6 per character is because they are keeping all that info saved server side and have to account for that level of data retention and anyone who's worked in IT and supported large database servers understands this.

That's really hard to imagine, we're talking about literal bytes of data.

[Linken.6345]

@PookieDaWombat.6209 said:

@Linken.6345 said:

@PookieDaWombat.6209 said:

@Maikimaik.1974 said:

@PookieDaWombat.6209 said:

@Maikimaik.1974 said:6 per char is just waaaay to few. Especialy if they're shared through all 3 game modes (so 2 per game mode basically, what the hell anet)

Realistically most people probably have a power and condi build on a toon, and maybe a support set up, but rarely all three and maybe two gear sets they are running with. This covers MOST players with a few outliers that go ham and think they need 4+ gear sets to swap between and 6 builds with one or two trait tweaks that make them "different" builds. For a large number of the player-base They will already have their WvW specific build, their PVP build and then 3 other slots they can play with for build variants on each character which for most will be more than enough right out the gates. The account wide build section is going to be the bigger bottleneck as people are constantly going to want copies of other people's builds and even then have 6 slots at the start to play with across your account is fine for MOST players. I'm an altaholic with three accounts and over 20 toons and even on my main account that has most of those characters the starting number of slots should be more than enough for me to play with build variety on those without needing to drop extra money.

I am usually one of the first people to lose it over silly things Anet has done in the past, but this right here is probably the most accurate "hitting the middle ground" between free added feature and monetization they have ever done. As long as the price point for additional slots isn't more than or the same as a new character slot, then this should be golden for them and is as players that want to see this game keep going in a good direction.

I don't think you understood what I was saying. Each character has a maximum of 6 template slots. 3 are free, 3 are buyable. You simply cannot have more than 6, which is, as I said, not even close to enough.

I understood completely and I posited that this was an incorrect assessment. Each character will have their standard build in WvW, and PvP, then the three free slots right out the gates. This means it can have their primary PvE build and then two others. Now, for MOST players they take the game semi seriously, they might have on any single character:

One Power based buildOne Condi based buildOne Support based build

Within those set ups they might situationally swap out a utility or a weapon, but in MOST cases only a utility will be swapped out.

Looking at an account where someone has 5 level 80 characters and probably plays 3 of them semi-regularly with one main they play most of the time, the starting free slots will more than suffice for them. Now, if they were a bit more serious about having hard a fast swap-able builds, 6 slots for those build variations is still more than enough to cover the most played/used meta builds on a given class (not including those very specific utility swaps that occur in niche situations that don't require their own build load out to be saved.) Same holds true if not truer for gear loadouts as you will find there tend to be less need for those to occur so often that you'd need more than 6 different templates just for gear swapping.

This brings us to the free 6 account wide build slots that for this person with 5 toons should be more than enough to act as "build over flow" for their most used characters. Obviously if you have a TON of alts and want to get and save builds from others to use later or just to have as additional build slots then yes, you will have to pay for those, however for MOST players in the game, they will have more than enough right out the gates for free that they can use to both get that extra st of armor out of their inventory along with the weapons they use on that armor set and will be fine with being able to quick swap to the traits and equipment when they want to switch things up.

They said you would have 3 that contained your pve, wvw and spvp builds at start not pvex3 wvw and spvp thats 5.

So are you fine with not having a build for wvw and spvp.Then sure do 3 pve builds.Better buy an extra gear equipment upgrade if your going power condi and support tho.

No, they said that you'd have three that would be populated with your WvW and PvP and PvE builds since you already have those in the game and they are ostensibly the builds you might be using the most. Ultimately though you can have you build in WvW and your PVP build, but two of those three slots can also have some other build in there other than your main PvE build. Then you will also have 6 account wide slots for free at launch as well and two free EQ slots, which i will state, again, will be more than enough for MOST players in the game on each character that they run with the option to upgrade to 6 eq and build slots on certain characters if they so choose. None of that is unreasonable as long a Anet keeps their pricing for such things in the realistic realm, which i might add is the ONLY thing that I've said thus far could really go bad for Anet if they make the extra slots too expensive.

When you said this in an earlier post.

Each character will have their standard build in WvW, and PvP, then the three free slots right out the gates.

That is what I reponded to, It sounds like the pvp and wvw wont take up any build slots since you talk like they have a seperate standard build so you can have 3 pve slots that is false.

EditSo if you use 1 build for wvw and spvp you will be limited to the same 1 build for pve with 2 equipment slots ( you will want to use the second one for the wvw build most likely.)

[Astralporing.1957]

@PookieDaWombat.6209 said:No, the reason to limit it to 6 per character is because they are keeping all that info saved server side and have to account for that level of data retention and anyone who's worked in IT and supported large database servers understands this.And why they are saving builds serverside then? There's no need to do so. In fact, since we can use chatcodes for builds, they could easily use the gw1 option (so, just save it into text files locally). Gear, yes, there might be a problem, but that's (again) only due to the method they used. It's not the only possible option (arc templates uses a different one).

[Ashantara.8731]

@Astralporing.1957 said:And why they are saving builds serverside then? There's no need to do so.

From my understanding, the only feature involved that requires to save the data to the server is the automatic gear storage that comes with this new template feature, since the gear you use in builds is no longer stored in your inventory. I suppose that's how it's always been with whatever you drag onto your character, so they had to do it this way. Yes, it's a shame as it limits the maximum of builds you can create per char.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

@Astralporing.1957 said:They didn't mention costs yet, but they did say they think of those as similar to bag slots and bank tabs - so, between 400 to 800 gems most likely. And the unlocks for per-character gear and build template tab slots would also be on per chracter basis.And after i calculated how many tabs i'd need to buy, it turned out to be prohibitively costly. I mean, an expansion would be cheaper. Way cheaper.

This is all speculation until prices are announced, but as an exercise, I'll expand on what Astral is saying. Bag slots are 400 gems, bank tabs 600. Assume ANet applies the same costs for per character and account unlocks.

That would mean that to max the account unlock, build storage, we'd need 18 after getting the initial 3 and the free 3. To do so, players would have to buy 18 Storage tabs. At 600 per tab, that would require 10,800 gems. That's 135 (dollars or Euros) for the account unlocks. There was mention of packs of 3, so there might be a discount to buy 3; alternatively, they may only come in three packs, or maybe 600 per will be the discounted price.

On the same assumption, to max character templates, players would buy 7 slots per character. That would be 2,800 gems, or 35 (dollars/Euros) per character that one might want to max. Maxing the account and one character would be 170 (dollars/Euros), or 5.66 times PoF's price.

If this is what the costs are going to be, or if they are even half of the speculated costs, then ANet will be continuing the trend of monetizing for large-scale purchases rather than small that we've been seeing for several years.

[phoenix.3487]

There's still no reason to limit them to only 6.

No, the reason to limit it to 6 per character is because they are keeping all that info saved server side and have to account for that level of data retention and anyone who's worked in IT and supported large database servers understands this.

That is way off the mark, this is not what we call big dataIt takes 12 bits to store a build, but lets give it 32 bits just to make it simple allocation (4 byte like int).1 GB = 1,073,741,824 bytes.so 1 GB = 134,217,728‬ build templates.and 1 TB HD = 1,000 GBhere is a SSD https://www.amazon.com/Samsung-Inch-Internal-MZ-76E1T0B-AM/dp/B078DPCY3T?ref_=fsclp_pl_dp_1so that is 134,217,728‬,000 build templates for $129.99.

[Seera.5916]

@Maikimaik.1974 said:

@PookieDaWombat.6209 said:

@Maikimaik.1974 said:

@PookieDaWombat.6209 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@PookieDaWombat.6209 said:I understood completely and I posited that this was an incorrect assessment. Each character will have their standard build in WvW, and PvP, then the three free slots right out the gates. This means it can have their primary PvE build and then two others. Now, for MOST players they take the game semi seriously, they might have on any single character:

One Power based buildOne Condi based buildOne Support based build

Within those set ups they might situationally swap out a utility or a weapon, but in MOST cases only a utility will be swapped out.

Looking at an account where someone has 5 level 80 characters and probably plays 3 of them semi-regularly with one main they play most of the time, the starting free slots will more than suffice for them.

Only if they don't play WvW as well. Those use different gear than their PvE equivalent (you don't run glass in WvW). That already bumps you up to 6 different gear sets.

Now, if they were a bit more serious about having hard a fast swap-able buildsThey can;t do anything more, because 6 gear sets are already filled, and they can't have any more.

This brings us to the free 6 account wide build slots thatdon't give you more gear sets available, because they are

build

slots.

So, you were saying?

I play WvW. Have since the beginning. I've also played everything from glass to super tanky support so to say "you don't run glass in WvW" is just silly and ill-informed. Furthermore, my gear set on many of my more played toons is geared around playing in multiple game modes without a huge need to swap equipment in any major way unless i was doing a MAJOR shift (say from condi to power or to a completely different elite spec) and that does not happen as often as a very few number of players would like to try to convince those of us that have been here since day one hour one of this game's launch.

Six gear load-outs is literally more than enough for the vat majority of players in this game and this is the same thing i've been saying in this thread. You're trying to argue for a very niche group of players that think they need to have a template slot for every rune and sigil and weapon they might possibly run in a very specific scenario, and I'm saying (and have been saying) that such a thing is neither practical or realistic when looking at the overall playerbase of guild wars 2. Why is this a hard concept to grasp?

Per character having 6 EQ load out slots is more than enough for MOST players in the game. I'm talking everyone from the most casual of casuals to the most hardcore of midcore players and even some serious hardcore players that are realistic about not needing build templates for that one niche boss that requires some specific sigil to eek out that extra 1k dps, but nowhere else in the game. However instead of looking at this realistically, those few players are loosing their minds because they aren't getting 4564564 slots.

So lets take your example regarding the WvW build. Even if you build specifically to that mode, you mean to tell me the PvE variety of that build is so drastic that it requires its own set up? With vastly different weapons sigils and runes? Really? And you are trying to sell me on the fact that you'd honestly need way more than 6 eq slots to cover all the armor and weapons you need to slot for all those builds? There is no real overlap in any of them that they can be intelligently consolidated? Really? Do you honestly think that if this is the case for you that this is somehow the case for the vast majority of players in the game as it stands? Or could it be possible that you don't have a real vision into just who plays this game and how most of the players even play this game.

Ultimately there seems to be a disconnect from a lot of self proclaimed HARDCORE players that think the offering is way too little, and perhaps down the line they might expand those slot offerings to 10 per character, but honestly, this game doesn't have nearly the build diversity of its predecessor and too many of these numbers being thrown around are absurd and only serve to weaken your argument for more space, not help it.

There's still no reason to limit them to only 6.

No, the reason to limit it to 6 per character is because they are keeping all that info saved server side and have to account for that level of data retention and anyone who's worked in IT and supported large database servers understands this.

That's really hard to imagine, we're talking about literal bytes of data.

Those bytes add up and they do have to future proof things as well. Not to mention all of the other data being stored on their end.

Not saying they are at the max due to that, but small things do add up.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Seera.5916 said:

Those bytes add up and they do have to future proof things as well. Not to mention all of the other data being stored on their end.

Not saying they are at the max due to that, but small things do add up.Look at the post above yours. With the pricing that was suggested, it would be enough for one person to buy full unlock for account and single character to finance storing all the builds for all the still active gw2 players.

[Seera.5916]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Seera.5916 said:

Those bytes add up and they do have to future proof things as well. Not to mention all of the other data being stored on their end.

Not saying they are at the max due to that, but small things do add up.Look at the post above yours. With the pricing that was suggested, it would be enough for one person to buy full unlock for account and single character to finance storing all the builds for all the still active gw2 players.

That's an SSD. Not a server. Those likely have different pricing.

The above only counts for the storage needed by build templates and not for anything else that needs to be stored.

And if you noticed in my last line I did mention that I wasn't necessarily saying that they are at the max due to that, but small things add up and ANet can't ignore it and did likely factor it into their decision. Whether it's the limiting factor if it was the UI or keybinding issues, I don't know.

[Ashantara.8731]

@"Seera.5916" said:The above only counts for the storage needed by build templates and not for anything else that needs to be stored.

"Storage" in reality is just a couple of characters that define an in-game item in the database of a game server. It's not like you are paying for real storage space to store your old possessions. ;)

[Seera.5916]

@Ashantara.8731 said:

@"Seera.5916" said:The above only counts for the storage needed by build templates and not for anything else that needs to be stored.

"Storage" in reality is just a couple of characters that define an in-game item in the database of a game server. It's not like you are paying for

real

storage space to store your old possessions. ;)

Still takes up storage space. I kind of sort of am paying for real storage space. It's just a really small spot on a server ;)

[Ashantara.8731]

@Seera.5916 said:

@Ashantara.8731 said:

@Seera.5916 said:The above only counts for the storage needed by build templates and not for anything else that needs to be stored.

"Storage" in reality is just a couple of characters that define an in-game item in the database of a game server. It's not like you are paying for

real

storage space to store your old possessions. ;)

Still takes up storage space.

My point was: Not nearly as much as you make it sound. Those few bits per player are not expensive, hence the argument that this was a valid reason to pay a fortune per slot is nonsense.

[Seera.5916]

@Ashantara.8731 said:

@Seera.5916 said:

@Ashantara.8731 said:

@Seera.5916 said:The above only counts for the storage needed by build templates and not for anything else that needs to be stored.

"Storage" in reality is just a couple of characters that define an in-game item in the database of a game server. It's not like you are paying for

real

storage space to store your old possessions. ;)

Still takes up storage space.

My point was:

Not nearly as much as you make it sound.

Those few bits per player are

not

expensive, hence the argument that this was a valid reason to pay a fortune per slot is nonsense.

For the build templates and build template storage slots I can definitely agree that if they are priced like the bag and bank slots will be too expensive.

The equipment tabs since they do free up inventory space I can see why they have a price. Maybe 1/2 to 2/3 of the cost of a bag slot since while there are more "slots" in the equipment tab than the current max bag, we're limited as to what type and how many of each type we can put into them - we won't even be able to access that max amount at launch and only if they make a legendary tier for everything. Technically you should get a build template slot when you get an equipment tab since very few builds share the exact same traits and skills so might as well just max out the build template stuff (slots & storage slots) and just have people purchase the equipment tabs at a reasonable price per slot. Given the chat code, I don't think many will purchase more than maybe a slot or two and just use out of game spots to store additional builds.

[Ashantara.8731]

@Seera.5916 said:

@"Ashantara.8731" said:My point was:

Not nearly as much as you make it sound.

Those few bits per player are

not

expensive, hence the argument that this was a valid reason to pay a fortune per slot is nonsense.

For the build templates and build template storage slots I can definitely agree that if they are priced like the bag and bank slots will be too expensive.

Build storage slots should be for free and saved locally on your computer, not on the server. There is no excuse for handling it otherwise, it is just a cheap trick for additional cash-grabbing (and it doesn't even save your equipment information, which it should).

Build tabs I can agree on.

The equipment tabs since they do free up inventory space I can see why they have a price.

While I would generally agree on charging money for build tabs and equipment tabs, their freeing inventory space is no valid argument for me as it is a very bad solution, because it comes with the downside of causing more hassle and inconvenience, as explained before. Therefore, this is no reason for me to pay them for the overall inconvenience just to save inventory space, which I have tons of.

[Astralporing.1957]

I wouldn't mind to pay for additional gear storage slots. If:

1. the unlocks would be account-based, not character based
2. and/or they would be really cheap
3. they would not be limited to mere 6 tabs
4. there would be a solution for legendary gear users so they don't need to pay for a second time for the QoL they have already worked hard to obtainMost likely the gear storage and gear template should have been a separate thing, with templates only holding links to the actual gear, be it from gear storage, or from inventory.

But of course the solution that would be more useful would also have been harder for anet to monetize - and that's the primary reason why systems like that should either not be in a gemshop at all, or at the very least should be unlockable by a single purchase. Othewise, like in this case, the desire to monetize the solution leads to a design that cripples its primary utility.