Offense & Defense

[Einlanzer.1627]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Einlanzer.1627" said:Is it your opinion that bunker builds that use stats like Nomad or Minstrel work really well solo in PvE? Because that would be a surprise to me.Depends on what you want to achieve. They can do wonders for your survivability, but the downside is that their killing power is really low, so even small fights get extended till infinity. Considering that the fights in open world are generally not that difficult, offensive stats would obviously be worth more. Remember though that does not mean they are more effective - just more useful in a certain specific set of situations.

Notice also, that "being useful" was not what your post was about. It was purely about effectiveness and scaling of traits - and in this, defensive traits are as effective as offensive ones. They become ridiculously OP when pushed to extreme - it's just that both are OP in

different

categories.

You're trying to ask, who "works better": Usain Bolt, Shaquille O'Neal or Muhammad Ali.

No, but that's precisely the point I'm making - I don't think it's possible to quantitatively assert full superiority of one over the other. I have always worked with an assumption that defensive stats need to be twice as effective as offensive stats to have the same value, which is why I used to argue they were out of balance because I thought that wasn't the case - i was falling in with the "offense scales better than defense" crowd, which is a massive oversimplification of the mechanics.

It turns out is is the case with VT vs PF, which means that they are actually quite balanced with each other. This means that works best will be highly context dependent. What this means, though, is that VT is more competitive than players believe it is, and the full-glass meta has a lot of groupthink behind it. That's the only point I'm making.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Einlanzer.1627 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Einlanzer.1627 said:There are still a lot of people here missing the point, unfortunately. The point is simple:

Perception - Offense scales way higher than defense, so offensive stacking is necessary and defensive stats are useless (in PvE)

That's not the reason defence is useless in pve. It does not become the reason for defence being useless in pve no matter how often you keep repeating this nosense.

Defensive stats are useless in pve because they are simply not needed. You can splash them in if you need a crutch to support your bad gameplay. That does not change the fact that they are simply not needed.

Most classes gain way better defence via traits and skills rather than gear.

Changing the build would often make a far bigger difference than splashing in defensive stats. Not to mention that once you grow accustomed and more skilled at your class, you can change traits and skills free of charge. Where as you are stuck with kitten defensive stats on all gear sub ascended, and ascended you need to reforge at a cost too.

@Einlanzer.1627 said:Reality - Power scales the most of any attribute, but Toughness and Vitality scale defense a lot more than Precision and Ferocity scale offense

Going from 1000 to 2000 power increases your damage output by 2.0 x

Going from 1000 to 2000 precision + 1000 ferocity combined increases your damage output by about 1.5x.Going from 1000 to 2000 Toughness and Vitality combined increases your defense by 2.2 to 2.9 x depending on class

Observation - Precision + Ferocity are not necessary to be effective with a power-based build. They are utility options, just as Vitality, Toughness, Expertise, Concentration, and Condition damage are. Vitality and Toughness are potentially useful even in PvE because they increase your TTL by more than the loss of TTK from not using Precision and Ferocity.

Perception and ferocity provide less of a benefit than power, but given that the benefit of defensive stats is 0, they provide a bigger benefit no matter how useful they are.

Arenanet could literally buff defensive stats to be twice as potent as they are now. That would change absolutely NOTHING in class performance or necessity for defensive stats.

@Einlanzer.1627 said:

@Aigleborgne.2981 said:

@Asum.4960 said:Literally 95% of mobs in the open world you can burst down without taking a single hit by combining high damage with chaining CC's.The more you reduce your damage by investing into defensive stats, the longer fights take, the more damage you take.

While I agree with your last sentence, I disagree with the first.It is easy to quickly burst down one or two melee mobs. With some aoe cc, you can even go up to 5. Beyond this number, you reach your skill target cap and it becomes more difficult to kite without beeing hit.On top of that, you will face range attack, range aoe spells, not to mention cc, cripple, immo, chill.Let's take a simple example, shall we? Barradin's crypt, 2nd veteran calls 5 archers to help him. Last one is a mage with many ranged allies.Guess what? Many die there or are downed even with elite spe.

It's a lot more difficult to handle ranged mobs especially when they have aoe and conditions that target movement ability.Now, if you play a squishy berserker profession like elementalist, you can go down in no time.

I have played these examples in tanky gear and it was easy. Sure longer to kill, but I could outheal their damage.I have also experienced your last sentence : my tanky character was not enough durable and die in situations where a berserker gear could have done relatively easily.

Lastly, when you solo champion in open world, one mistake in berserker can downed you and then it's over. It is especially difficult if it can ranged you to death.

I would still prefer offensive gear but I don't underestimate defensive one.

I really don't understand how it is so many people come into these threads and act like you can go through PvE without ever getting hit. I get hit all the time and I'm sure I'm not terrible at the game. In fact, when I'm with a group in a zerg I see other people getting hit and going down all the time, usually more than I do.

So I know it's not the norm to just coast through PvE avoiding all damage through active defense.

The idea is quite preposterous.

Depending on the situation, and for most open world, it kind of is for skilled players. The only really dangerous fights are some meta events or maybe some stray champion enemy which you want to solo. How many ultra dangerous enemies do you encounter in your regular pve maps?

Maybe you are not as skilled as you think you are. There is a comprehensive open world section on metabattle which provides quite a few builds for open world and story content. Most of them are running offensive stats, yet are very durable. Maybe take a look and adapt your builds.

uh-huh, yeah.

Hey, I'm not the one trying to convince others that defensive stats are needed. That was literally the very first meta this game had at launch, for around 2-4 weeks. Then people realized how the dodge button works.

I think my thief even still has her very first exotic PVT set in her inventory.

[Einlanzer.1627]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Einlanzer.1627 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Einlanzer.1627 said:There are still a lot of people here missing the point, unfortunately. The point is simple:

Perception - Offense scales way higher than defense, so offensive stacking is necessary and defensive stats are useless (in PvE)

That's not the reason defence is useless in pve. It does not become the reason for defence being useless in pve no matter how often you keep repeating this nosense.

Defensive stats are useless in pve because they are simply not needed. You can splash them in if you need a crutch to support your bad gameplay. That does not change the fact that they are simply not needed.

Most classes gain way better defence via traits and skills rather than gear.

Changing the build would often make a far bigger difference than splashing in defensive stats. Not to mention that once you grow accustomed and more skilled at your class, you can change traits and skills free of charge. Where as you are stuck with kitten defensive stats on all gear sub ascended, and ascended you need to reforge at a cost too.

@Einlanzer.1627 said:Reality - Power scales the most of any attribute, but Toughness and Vitality scale defense a lot more than Precision and Ferocity scale offense

Going from 1000 to 2000 power increases your damage output by 2.0 x

Going from 1000 to 2000 precision + 1000 ferocity combined increases your damage output by about 1.5x.Going from 1000 to 2000 Toughness and Vitality combined increases your defense by 2.2 to 2.9 x depending on class

Observation - Precision + Ferocity are not necessary to be effective with a power-based build. They are utility options, just as Vitality, Toughness, Expertise, Concentration, and Condition damage are. Vitality and Toughness are potentially useful even in PvE because they increase your TTL by more than the loss of TTK from not using Precision and Ferocity.

Perception and ferocity provide less of a benefit than power, but given that the benefit of defensive stats is 0, they provide a bigger benefit no matter how useful they are.

Arenanet could literally buff defensive stats to be twice as potent as they are now. That would change absolutely NOTHING in class performance or necessity for defensive stats.

@Einlanzer.1627 said:

@Aigleborgne.2981 said:

@"Asum.4960" said:Literally 95% of mobs in the open world you can burst down without taking a single hit by combining high damage with chaining CC's.The more you reduce your damage by investing into defensive stats, the longer fights take, the more damage you take.

While I agree with your last sentence, I disagree with the first.It is easy to quickly burst down one or two melee mobs. With some aoe cc, you can even go up to 5. Beyond this number, you reach your skill target cap and it becomes more difficult to kite without beeing hit.On top of that, you will face range attack, range aoe spells, not to mention cc, cripple, immo, chill.Let's take a simple example, shall we? Barradin's crypt, 2nd veteran calls 5 archers to help him. Last one is a mage with many ranged allies.Guess what? Many die there or are downed even with elite spe.

It's a lot more difficult to handle ranged mobs especially when they have aoe and conditions that target movement ability.Now, if you play a squishy berserker profession like elementalist, you can go down in no time.

I have played these examples in tanky gear and it was easy. Sure longer to kill, but I could outheal their damage.I have also experienced your last sentence : my tanky character was not enough durable and die in situations where a berserker gear could have done relatively easily.

Lastly, when you solo champion in open world, one mistake in berserker can downed you and then it's over. It is especially difficult if it can ranged you to death.

I would still prefer offensive gear but I don't underestimate defensive one.

I really don't understand how it is so many people come into these threads and act like you can go through PvE without ever getting hit. I get hit all the time and I'm sure I'm not terrible at the game. In fact, when I'm with a group in a zerg I see other people getting hit and going down all the time, usually more than I do.

So I know it's not the norm to just coast through PvE avoiding all damage through active defense.

The idea is quite preposterous.

Depending on the situation, and for most open world, it kind of is for skilled players. The only really dangerous fights are some meta events or maybe some stray champion enemy which you want to solo. How many ultra dangerous enemies do you encounter in your regular pve maps?

Maybe you are not as skilled as you think you are. There is a comprehensive open world section on metabattle which provides quite a few builds for open world and story content. Most of them are running offensive stats, yet are very durable. Maybe take a look and adapt your builds.

uh-huh, yeah.

Hey, I'm not the one trying to convince others that defensive stats are needed. That was literally the very first meta this game had at launch, for around 2-4 weeks. Then people realized how the dodge button works.

I think my thief even still has her very first exotic PVT set in her inventory.

No one ever said "needed." You just read that into it.

[Dante.1508]

@"FrigginPaco.4178" said:Also there's this little gem:

"The challenge is that the skill disparity between average players and hardcore players is extreme. We’re talking about ten times damage output. You can’t necessarily put a DPS check that the average player is going to be able to overcome without making the fight entirely trivialized for the hardcore."-Mike Z - https://pcgamesn.com/guild-wars-2/pvp-raids-world-restructuring

This says a lot about the range of player capabilities and I continue to point this out wherever I can. Player performance means a lot, and until there's a reason to perform well, people likely won't push to any sort of "bar". For lack of a better phrase, "sloppy" or "unrefined" playstyles, builds, and players will have no reason to buckle up and hit something with 100% of their attention span.

This isn't everyone, and I hope it's not as flippant as it looks, but I know a lot of people aren't here because the combat system is neat and offers a lot, but instead because the combat with PvE mobs doesn't demand much from them. It's cool for them to have their cake and eat it too, but I consider myself to be pretty capable at the game. I'll die in PvP or WvW many times more often than I will ever die in hardest fights in open world PvE that aren't mechanical gotcha traps.

A lot of people (me included) would not push the bar even if it was enforced, many would leave. Challenge is not fun for everyone.. Gaming is about casual after work entertainment not a second job i'm not paid for..

[Astralporing.1957]

@"Cyninja.2954" said:Hey, I'm not the one trying to convince others that defensive stats are needed. That was literally the very first meta this game had at launch, for around 2-4 weeks. Then people realized how the dodge button works.For more than first 2-4 weeks (on average, i mean). Most people didn't even finish gearing their characters up in first month. The "zerker meta" started gaining traction only from the early 2013. 2012 was still the time where people were killing themselves arguing about what is better - Soldier or Knight.And it wasn't just "learning how the dodge button works". Remember how for a while the common end-game gear for many players were Orr Temple sets - and remember how they looked then. Secondary sources were dungeon sets - and Berserker was not a choice available in all of them as well. If we add all that little stuff together, no wonder people got the wrong message initially.

...and come to think i do still have my original Lyssa set in the inventory on my PvE bearbow ranger.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Cyninja.2954" said:Hey, I'm not the one trying to convince others that defensive stats are needed. That was literally the very first meta this game had at launch, for around 2-4 weeks. Then people realized how the dodge button works.For

more

than first 2-4 weeks (on avrage, i mean). Most people didn't even finish gearing their characters up in first month. The "zerker meta" started gaining traction from the early 2013.And it wasn't just "learning how the dodge button works". Remember how for a while the common end-game gear for many players were Orr Temple sets - and remember how they looked then. Secondary sources were dungeon sets - and Berserker was not a choice available in all of them as well. If we add all that little stuff together, no wonder people got the wrong message initially.

Agreed, with everything you said. I would simply add that GW2 was ine of the earliest action based combat systems, people also needed time to adapt.

I was hyperboling a little because it's getting frustrating to have to revisit past metas 7 years later. Imagine being a new player listening to bad advice and wasting your first resources on a mediocre set like soldier. At least exotic gear has become dirt cheap on the TP.

Yes, my first PVT set was also my first exotic, as I would imagine for many veteran players from that time too. Bought with very expensive Karma back then. The second set was from Citadel of Flame farming and berserker.

[FrigginPaco.4178]

@Dante.1508 said:

@"FrigginPaco.4178" said:Also there's this little gem:

"The challenge is that the skill disparity between average players and hardcore players is extreme. We’re talking about ten times damage output. You can’t necessarily put a DPS check that the average player is going to be able to overcome without making the fight entirely trivialized for the hardcore."

-Mike Z -

https://pcgamesn.com/guild-wars-2/pvp-raids-world-restructuring

This says a lot about the range of player capabilities and I continue to point this out wherever I can. Player performance means a lot, and until there's a reason to perform well, people likely won't push to any sort of "bar". For lack of a better phrase, "sloppy" or "unrefined" playstyles, builds, and players will have no reason to buckle up and hit something with 100% of their attention span.

This isn't everyone, and I hope it's not as flippant as it looks, but I know a lot of people aren't here because the combat system is neat and offers a lot, but instead because the combat with PvE mobs doesn't demand much from them. It's cool for them to have their cake and eat it too, but I consider myself to be pretty capable at the game. I'll die in PvP or WvW many times more often than I will ever die in hardest fights in open world PvE that aren't mechanical gotcha traps.

A lot of people (me included) would not push the bar even if it was enforced, many would leave. Challenge is not fun for everyone.. Gaming is about casual after work entertainment not a second job i'm not paid for..

Ideally in the game as varied as this you would be able to find a way to do both without much problem. Guild Wars 1 had an optional hard mode, I think that it might be time to consider that for this game. Frankly, with the advent of mega servers I wouldn't see too much of a difference between the communities for splitting the community in that sense. To me, it answers a lot of problems that I would have with the game oh, at least it would make some steps towards it. As the game currently stands the most difficult thing I have to deal with his another player in PvP or World vs World, which is fine up to a point.

[retconned.9358]

Just play condi, then you don't have to choose between offensive and defensive stats, you can have both with no downsides