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  • Gop.8713Gop.8713 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 8, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:
    If it took 'veteran' players 6 years to obtain those 'unique' rewards, should it take less than 6 years for new players? If so, why?

    The same reason we do not force new players to wait two years after they start HoT before we allow them to start PoF . . .

    One of those 2 things is reward related, the other is gameplay related.

    And neither is timegated . . .

    Last I checked, achieving the same rewards from HoT takes just as long now as it did back when HoT released, if not even longer.

    And you feel that should be further extended to account for how long original players had to wait for the release? Why? To what possible purpose . . ?

    EDIT: Or were you saying you agree that new players shouldn't be forced to wait the six years bc they already have to put in more effort than original players did? I'm not sure if I'm understanding your point correctly . . .

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 8, 2020

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:
    If it took 'veteran' players 6 years to obtain those 'unique' rewards, should it take less than 6 years for new players? If so, why?

    The same reason we do not force new players to wait two years after they start HoT before we allow them to start PoF . . .

    One of those 2 things is reward related, the other is gameplay related.

    And neither is timegated . . .

    Last I checked, achieving the same rewards from HoT takes just as long now as it did back when HoT released, if not even longer.

    And you feel that should be further extended to account for how long original players had to wait for the release? Why? To what possible purpose . . ?

    EDIT: Or were you saying you agree that new players shouldn't be forced to wait the six years bc they already have to put in more effort than original players did? I'm not sure if I'm understanding your point correctly . . .

    I am saying, back when the daily AP cap was introduced, it made up more than half of the total available AP. Now it makes up around 1/3 and is ever shrinking with each new AP addition to the game.

    I am saying that players who are still climbing the ranks in AP get the same rewards as veteran players, only faster since they have way more possible achievement points available to them. That already is a benefit versus veteran players.

    Only because YOU want a loyalty reward faster is no reason to change how this loyalty reward works.

  • Eloc Freidon.5692Eloc Freidon.5692 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @hellsqueen.3045 said:

    @Eloc Freidon.5692 said:
    I used to care about getting all the AP I can. I'm at the point now that the only way for me to make real progression is to play competitive modes. Even then that still won't be enough to come close the players that are in the top ranking. There's about 7k points worth that they have that I am unable to earn that are just gone from the game. I've hit my limit with no physical way to be competitive.

    I don't want more than the highest players or compete with the AP levels of people who have come before me, across the board I would like AP rewards to be better. You get so little AP for so many difficult things and then heaps for something that isn't that important or difficult (eg. Collections compared to Daily AP).

    I want everyone to be better rewarded.
    I also want people who have paid for the game experience to have access to all content from the game, EG LWS1. The story is gone and the AP access is gone and that isn't fair for a story item.

    There was a time that we got so little during some episodes, then achievements out of nowhere we did get like 10AP. It has been all over the place, but this season seems to be pretty decent considering. That single dodge AP for Drakkar does seem a bit overkill though.

  • @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:
    If it took 'veteran' players 6 years to obtain those 'unique' rewards, should it take less than 6 years for new players? If so, why?

    The same reason we do not force new players to wait two years after they start HoT before we allow them to start PoF . . .

    One of those 2 things is reward related, the other is gameplay related. Last I checked, achieving the same rewards from HoT takes just as long now as it did back when HoT released, if not even longer.

    I mean, giving out free level boosts to new players who buy the expansion so they can skip gameplay and learning in order to catch up to content seems unwise to me. They get rewarded for not following the content in the same order as everyone else.

    Founder of Affinitus Nemus [AFNM]
    "Join Us, We're Lonely" - Our Guild At Some Point

    JUST LIKE THE LORAX, WE SPEAK FOR THE TREES!

  • Gop.8713Gop.8713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:
    If it took 'veteran' players 6 years to obtain those 'unique' rewards, should it take less than 6 years for new players? If so, why?

    The same reason we do not force new players to wait two years after they start HoT before we allow them to start PoF . . .

    One of those 2 things is reward related, the other is gameplay related.

    And neither is timegated . . .

    Last I checked, achieving the same rewards from HoT takes just as long now as it did back when HoT released, if not even longer.

    And you feel that should be further extended to account for how long original players had to wait for the release? Why? To what possible purpose . . ?

    EDIT: Or were you saying you agree that new players shouldn't be forced to wait the six years bc they already have to put in more effort than original players did? I'm not sure if I'm understanding your point correctly . . .

    I am saying, back when the daily AP cap was introduced, it made up more than half of the total available AP. Now it makes up around 1/3 and is ever shrinking with each new AP addition to the game.

    I am saying that players who are still climbing the ranks in AP get the same rewards as veteran players, only faster since they have way more possible achievement points available to them. That already is a benefit versus veteran players.

    Only because YOU want a loyalty reward faster is no reason to change how this loyalty reward works.

    I'm taking that to mean that my original interpretation of your post was correct rather than the one my edit. So again I must ask why. What would be the benefit of extending the rewards for new players out to same period from purchase that original players experienced . . ?

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 8, 2020

    @hellsqueen.3045 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:
    If it took 'veteran' players 6 years to obtain those 'unique' rewards, should it take less than 6 years for new players? If so, why?

    The same reason we do not force new players to wait two years after they start HoT before we allow them to start PoF . . .

    One of those 2 things is reward related, the other is gameplay related. Last I checked, achieving the same rewards from HoT takes just as long now as it did back when HoT released, if not even longer.

    I mean, giving out free level boosts to new players who buy the expansion so they can skip gameplay and learning in order to catch up to content seems unwise to me. They get rewarded for not following the content in the same order as everyone else.

    Again, that is a GAMEPLAY issue, not reward. Also you are correct, I do think the level boosts cause serious issues and should not have been implemented the way they were, but that is beside the point.

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:
    If it took 'veteran' players 6 years to obtain those 'unique' rewards, should it take less than 6 years for new players? If so, why?

    The same reason we do not force new players to wait two years after they start HoT before we allow them to start PoF . . .

    One of those 2 things is reward related, the other is gameplay related.

    And neither is timegated . . .

    Last I checked, achieving the same rewards from HoT takes just as long now as it did back when HoT released, if not even longer.

    And you feel that should be further extended to account for how long original players had to wait for the release? Why? To what possible purpose . . ?

    EDIT: Or were you saying you agree that new players shouldn't be forced to wait the six years bc they already have to put in more effort than original players did? I'm not sure if I'm understanding your point correctly . . .

    I am saying, back when the daily AP cap was introduced, it made up more than half of the total available AP. Now it makes up around 1/3 and is ever shrinking with each new AP addition to the game.

    I am saying that players who are still climbing the ranks in AP get the same rewards as veteran players, only faster since they have way more possible achievement points available to them. That already is a benefit versus veteran players.

    Only because YOU want a loyalty reward faster is no reason to change how this loyalty reward works.

    I'm taking that to mean that my original interpretation of your post was correct rather than the one my edit. So again I must ask why. What would be the benefit of extending the rewards for new players out to same period from purchase that original players experienced . . ?

    It's a loyalty reward. What are the benefits to reducing this time frame? Who gets to benefit from that and what is the new time frame supposed to be? What about players who never did achievement point dailies? What about veterans who have not been receiving daily achievement points for years?

    Not every reward mechanic needs a catch-up mechanic. Gameplay mechanics do, reward mechanics, especially ones which are mostly cosmetic, do not.

  • Gop.8713Gop.8713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @hellsqueen.3045 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:
    If it took 'veteran' players 6 years to obtain those 'unique' rewards, should it take less than 6 years for new players? If so, why?

    The same reason we do not force new players to wait two years after they start HoT before we allow them to start PoF . . .

    One of those 2 things is reward related, the other is gameplay related. Last I checked, achieving the same rewards from HoT takes just as long now as it did back when HoT released, if not even longer.

    I mean, giving out free level boosts to new players who buy the expansion so they can skip gameplay and learning in order to catch up to content seems unwise to me. They get rewarded for not following the content in the same order as everyone else.

    Again, that is a GAMEPLAY issue, not reward. Also you are correct, I do think the level boosts cause serious issues and should not have been implemented the way they were, but that is beside the point.

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:
    If it took 'veteran' players 6 years to obtain those 'unique' rewards, should it take less than 6 years for new players? If so, why?

    The same reason we do not force new players to wait two years after they start HoT before we allow them to start PoF . . .

    One of those 2 things is reward related, the other is gameplay related.

    And neither is timegated . . .

    Last I checked, achieving the same rewards from HoT takes just as long now as it did back when HoT released, if not even longer.

    And you feel that should be further extended to account for how long original players had to wait for the release? Why? To what possible purpose . . ?

    EDIT: Or were you saying you agree that new players shouldn't be forced to wait the six years bc they already have to put in more effort than original players did? I'm not sure if I'm understanding your point correctly . . .

    I am saying, back when the daily AP cap was introduced, it made up more than half of the total available AP. Now it makes up around 1/3 and is ever shrinking with each new AP addition to the game.

    I am saying that players who are still climbing the ranks in AP get the same rewards as veteran players, only faster since they have way more possible achievement points available to them. That already is a benefit versus veteran players.

    Only because YOU want a loyalty reward faster is no reason to change how this loyalty reward works.

    I'm taking that to mean that my original interpretation of your post was correct rather than the one my edit. So again I must ask why. What would be the benefit of extending the rewards for new players out to same period from purchase that original players experienced . . ?

    It's a loyalty reward.

    It's really not, as you yourself point out in your examples. There are players who have been around for less than a year who have higher ap than some who have been around since beta. It's a reward for players who do the cheeves . . .

    What are the benefits to reducing this time frame?

    There has been no discussion of reducing any time frames . . .

    Who gets to benefit from that and what is the new time frame supposed to be?

    I'm not sure, you brought it up. The question the third party posed was whether new players should be forced to wait on ap for the same time period original players were. This is an extension, not a reduction. No one has discussed reducing any time frame. I'm not even sure how that would be possible in the current context, absent granting ap on install. I'm not even sure this was supposed to be answerable in the affirmative. The point very well may have been to make an absurd suggestion, forcing anyone who answers to explain why it was absurd, so that it could then be determined whether that rationale could be applied to other matters being discussed in the thread. You could try answering the question and maybe we could see . . .

    What about players who never did achievement point dailies?

    I cannot see how they would be affected . . .

    What about veterans who have not been receiving daily achievement points for years?

    Again, I can't see how they would be affected . . .

    Not every reward mechanic needs a catch-up mechanic.

    Probably better to think of it as a make-up mechanic. There are parts of the game which, for purely technical reasons, new players do not have access to. As far as we know, there is nothing that can be done about this technical restriction. The absence of that content has also had a ripple effect into the ap reward track but there are solutions available for that. Would it be good to implement those solutions? Why or why not? If withholding access to those rewards is good, why would it not also be good to withhold access to rewards for other content that players do not complete in a timely manner? What makes, for example, the rewards for LS1 different from the rewards for LS2? If withholding LS1 rewards is a good, why do we not also withhold rewards for LS2? If withholding LS1 rewards is not good, why would we not search for ways to remedy the ill . . ?

    Gameplay mechanics do, reward mechanics, especially ones which are mostly cosmetic, do not.

    That is an opinion and you are entitled to it, but it is not an opinion that anet seems to share. Accessibility is a cornerstone of their subscription-free, buy to play model. The game is specifically designed so that taking a break doesn't set you back, you can easily make up for lost time when you return . . .

  • Inculpatus cedo.9234Inculpatus cedo.9234 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 8, 2020

    How are these 'new players' supposed to have access to the APs released in the first 18 months? What constitutes a 'new player'? Do these 'new players' get the APs sans playing? Are they able to earn (if not just given) them in less than 18 months?
    If it's earned by gameplay, how does the game keep non-'new players' from earning these APs? Would the playerbase be content with new content that awarded APs to some, but not others? Content that some players earn rewards for less or no gameplay than those that have played for longer?

    What, exactly, is the plan to award 'new players' these Season One/Festival APs (that won't go over like lead balloon)?
    I mean, either free APs are awarded to anyone that didn't complete the required content, whether 'new' or not....or create new content to be completed (and everyone will want to be allowed to play and earn APs or there will be backlash, I'd imagine). If the Devs are going to use resources to create new content, I'm guessing they want everyone to be eligible.

    Perhaps, those early APs must just be thought of as 'early adopters' rewards. Much like the extra Shared Inventory Slot space no longer available from the purchase of Deluxe or Ultimate Heart of Thorns, or the Celebration Hat, or the pre-purchase Titles.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 8, 2020

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @hellsqueen.3045 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:
    If it took 'veteran' players 6 years to obtain those 'unique' rewards, should it take less than 6 years for new players? If so, why?

    The same reason we do not force new players to wait two years after they start HoT before we allow them to start PoF . . .

    One of those 2 things is reward related, the other is gameplay related. Last I checked, achieving the same rewards from HoT takes just as long now as it did back when HoT released, if not even longer.

    I mean, giving out free level boosts to new players who buy the expansion so they can skip gameplay and learning in order to catch up to content seems unwise to me. They get rewarded for not following the content in the same order as everyone else.

    Again, that is a GAMEPLAY issue, not reward. Also you are correct, I do think the level boosts cause serious issues and should not have been implemented the way they were, but that is beside the point.

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:
    If it took 'veteran' players 6 years to obtain those 'unique' rewards, should it take less than 6 years for new players? If so, why?

    The same reason we do not force new players to wait two years after they start HoT before we allow them to start PoF . . .

    One of those 2 things is reward related, the other is gameplay related.

    And neither is timegated . . .

    Last I checked, achieving the same rewards from HoT takes just as long now as it did back when HoT released, if not even longer.

    And you feel that should be further extended to account for how long original players had to wait for the release? Why? To what possible purpose . . ?

    EDIT: Or were you saying you agree that new players shouldn't be forced to wait the six years bc they already have to put in more effort than original players did? I'm not sure if I'm understanding your point correctly . . .

    I am saying, back when the daily AP cap was introduced, it made up more than half of the total available AP. Now it makes up around 1/3 and is ever shrinking with each new AP addition to the game.

    I am saying that players who are still climbing the ranks in AP get the same rewards as veteran players, only faster since they have way more possible achievement points available to them. That already is a benefit versus veteran players.

    Only because YOU want a loyalty reward faster is no reason to change how this loyalty reward works.

    I'm taking that to mean that my original interpretation of your post was correct rather than the one my edit. So again I must ask why. What would be the benefit of extending the rewards for new players out to same period from purchase that original players experienced . . ?

    It's a loyalty reward.

    It's really not, as you yourself point out in your examples. There are players who have been around for less than a year who have higher ap than some who have been around since beta. It's a reward for players who do the cheeves . . .

    Yes, and that was their choice, as is new players who do not care about AP. The daily AP are rewards for loyalty.

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    What are the benefits to reducing this time frame?

    There has been no discussion of reducing any time frames . . .

    I'm talking about the 15,000 AP from daily rewards. Those are time gated behind 4.1 years of doing dailies.

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Who gets to benefit from that and what is the new time frame supposed to be?

    I'm not sure, you brought it up. The question the third party posed was whether new players should be forced to wait on ap for the same time period original players were. This is an extension, not a reduction.

    How is this an extension? How can you be arguing no time frame, then 1 sentence later talk about players waiting? What are you even on about now?

    With exception to the time saved via monthlies, the time frame for reaching the 15k AP cap is the same for EVERY player. The time frame required to reach the possible AP cap excluding daily AP is lower for new players by mere fact that there is way more achievements available outside of dailies. The time required for new players to reach maximum AP combined with dailies remains the same as it is/was for veterans who have been doing dailies.

    @Gop.8713 said:
    No one has discussed reducing any time frame. I'm not even sure how that would be possible in the current context, absent granting ap on install. I'm not even sure this was supposed to be answerable in the affirmative. The point very well may have been to make an absurd suggestion, forcing anyone who answers to explain why it was absurd, so that it could then be determined whether that rationale could be applied to other matters being discussed in the thread. You could try answering the question and maybe we could see . . .

    ... I don't even know what you are talking about by now.

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    What about players who never did achievement point dailies?

    I cannot see how they would be affected . . .

    What about veterans who have not been receiving daily achievement points for years?

    Again, I can't see how they would be affected . . .

    Dailies AP directly affect a central LOYALTY REWARD MECHANIC of this game. Yet you do not see how this could affect players who participated or did not participate in this mechanic? Okay.

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Not every reward mechanic needs a catch-up mechanic.

    Probably better to think of it as a make-up mechanic.

    You can call it what you want. The argument remains the same:
    The daily cap rewards player loyalty over x amount of time. There is no need for any make up mechanic if the desired effect is to reward player loyalty.

    @Gop.8713 said:
    There are parts of the game which, for purely technical reasons, new players do not have access to. As far as we know, there is nothing that can be done about this technical restriction. The absence of that content has also had a ripple effect into the ap reward track but there are solutions available for that. Would it be good to implement those solutions? Why or why not? If withholding access to those rewards is good, why would it not also be good to withhold access to rewards for other content that players do not complete in a timely manner? What makes, for example, the rewards for LS1 different from the rewards for LS2? If withholding LS1 rewards is a good, why do we not also withhold rewards for LS2? If withholding LS1 rewards is not good, why would we not search for ways to remedy the ill . . ?

    It has been pointed out MULTIPLE time by now that the effective AP out of which players are locked out who missed Living World Season 1 is around 3-4k AP. Insignificant in the total amount of available AP. Yes, I personally do agree that it would be great to have some way of offering player a chance to acquire these AP, though I am sure some players would disagree.

    This is absolutely unrelated to the daily AP cap.

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Gameplay mechanics do, reward mechanics, especially ones which are mostly cosmetic, do not.

    That is an opinion and you are entitled to it, but it is not an opinion that anet seems to share. Accessibility is a cornerstone of their subscription-free, buy to play model. The game is specifically designed so that taking a break doesn't set you back, you can easily make up for lost time when you return . . .

    It is an opinion they have remained loyal to in most of their content, if you actually look at relevant content.

    • Past AP still require the same amount of effort, in part even more, to be granted the achievements.
    • time limited festivals which only grant AP during those periods, with yearly achievements
    • time sensitive cosmetic rewards
    • time sensitive living world free access loyalty reward
    • a cycling login bonus which continually increases ones account https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chest_of_Loyalty
    • a rather stable economy, which directly results in continued accumulation of wealth for active players versus stagnation of inactive players (unlike many MMORPGs which continually devalue past progress and introduce inflation to reduce past currency acquisition)

    The game allows for you to leave and not be set back from a GAMEPLAY perspective, certainly not from a reward or wealth perspective. You continually seem to not understand the difference or intentionally not want to understand the difference. FYI achievement points, and their rewards, fall in the later categories.

  • Gop.8713Gop.8713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    ... I don't even know what you are talking about by now.

    Clearly. You interjected yourself into a discussion about the missing AP from LS1 and how it locked new players out from the highest currently available unique rewards on the AP reward track. But you thought we were discussing daily AP, which we were not. But no blood no foul, I forgive you. Glhf :)

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 9, 2020

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    ... I don't even know what you are talking about by now.

    Clearly. You interjected yourself into a discussion about the missing AP from LS1 and how it locked new players out from the highest currently available unique rewards on the AP reward track. But you thought we were discussing daily AP, which we were not. But no blood no foul, I forgive you. Glhf :)

    Sorry, I went by what was being discussed in the thread, which from a perspective of someone complaining about max AP, is far more relevant in concern to daily AP, which are also mentioned over and over in this thread.

    As far as Living World Season 1 missed AP, I've already pointed to the fact that the actual amount of missed AP is insignificant for current players since it's not more than 3-4k, but yes, I do favor some way of reintroducing that content (more than the AP) with maybe some way to reacquire the AP from then.

    Then again, I did point that out back in 2018, even bolded it as first sentence in my comment from then.

    EDIT:
    read through the thread again, the lost AP to season 1 is actually even less than I remembered, being a total of around slightly above 2k. The fact players make such a fuss about missing out on these AP when sitting at 13-16k AP total is confusing to me when the total amount of available AP has reached above 40k. Anyone below 20k AP has enough content to work through to gain AP if desired, unless they are missing ALL the possible daily AP.

  • Gop.8713Gop.8713 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 9, 2020

    @Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:
    How are these 'new players' supposed to have access to the APs released in the first 18 months?

    They already do. The vast majority of AP made available prior to a new player purchasing the game is available upon purchase. Only a very small amount is excluded, and only due to a technical limitation . . .

    What constitutes a 'new player'?

    A 'new player' would be a player that started after another 'veteran' -- 'less new'? 'not as new'? w/e you like, I don't think it matters much -- player. It's a relative term. In this context we're discussing players who started too late to acquire the AP that would allow them to reach the last currently available unique reward along the ap reward track. If you're hung up on the 'new player' idea, keep in mind that any player affected by that missing ap would be affected by any solution to that missing ap, including players who were around at launch but took a break, or who were playing but couldn't or didn't do the cheeves, etc. . . .

    Do these 'new players' get the APs sans playing?

    I suppose that would be one solution, but probably not a very good one. I think the best solution would be to remove the unique rewards from the reward track, eliminating the harm the missing ap causes . . .

    Are they able to earn (if not just given) them in less than 18 months?

    I can't see any reason how long it takes one player to do something should impact how long it takes another . . .

    If it's earned by gameplay, how does the game keep non-'new players' from earning these APs?

    If you wanted to try to solve the problem by introducing 'make up' ap -- which I do not believe would be a very good choice -- you would have to limit that ap to accounts that did not have the ap being made up for. It seems like a bit of a logistical nightmare, one of several reasons it doesn't seem like a very good idea . . .

    Would the playerbase be content with new content that awarded APs to some, but not others? Content that some players earn rewards for less or no gameplay than those that have played for longer?

    I think it would probably be taken the same way other efforts to encourage new players to join the game have been taken. Some would resent their 'veteran status' being eroded, others would be excited by the attempt to make more new players feel more welcome, and most would be primarily concerned with their own experience and not very much with how it compares to someone else's . . .

    What, exactly, is the plan to award 'new players' these Season One/Festival APs (that won't go over like lead balloon)?

    I'm not sure there was one? The solution I pointed out as the best I'd seen was to remove the unique rewards from the track. But if you feel making up the actual ap is a better solution and want to brainstorm on that for a bit I'm sure you could come up with something there too, maybe something even better than my suggestion. As long as you recognize the problem we're headed in the right direction . . .

    I mean, either free APs are awarded to anyone that didn't complete the required content, whether 'new' or not....or create new content to be completed (and everyone will want to be allowed to play and earn APs or there will be backlash, I'd imagine). If the Devs are going to use resources to create new content, I'm guessing they want everyone to be eligible.

    This is one of the great things about my solution: Minimum, even negative, dev costs . . .

    Perhaps, those early APs must just be thought of as 'early adopters' rewards. Much like the extra Shared Inventory Slot space no longer available from the purchase of Deluxe or Ultimate Heart of Thorns, or the Celebration Hat, or the pre-purchase Titles.

    But they're not. The difference is that some rewards are expressly designed to reward early adopters -- celebration hat, pre-purchase titles, etc. -- or long-standing accounts, with birthday rewards being the best example of that. The inability to provide new players with the LS1 experience is something anet expressly regrets, and the missing ap exacerbates the problem due to the unique rewards offered on the ap reward track. The fact that anet would like to provide access to LS1 the same way they do other seasons is what makes it a problem. Addressing the consequences of the missing ap mitigates the cost of being unable to solve the problem . . .

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    ... I don't even know what you are talking about by now.

    Clearly. You interjected yourself into a discussion about the missing AP from LS1 and how it locked new players out from the highest currently available unique rewards on the AP reward track. But you thought we were discussing daily AP, which we were not. But no blood no foul, I forgive you. Glhf :)

    Sorry, I went by what was being discussed in the thread, which from a perspective of someone complaining about max AP, is far more relevant in concern to daily AP, which are also mentioned over and over in this thread.

    As far as Living World Season 1 missed AP, I've already pointed to the fact that the actual amount of missed AP is insignificant for current players since it's not more than 3-4k, but yes, I do favor some way of reintroducing that content (more than the AP) with maybe some way to reacquire the AP from then.

    Then again, I did point that out back in 2018, even bolded it as first sentence in my comment from then.

    EDIT:
    read through the thread again, the lost AP to season 1 is actually even less than I remembered, being a total of around slightly above 2k. The fact players make such a fuss about missing out on these AP when sitting at 13-16k AP total is confusing to me when the total amount of available AP has reached above 40k. Anyone below 20k AP has enough content to work through to gain AP if desired, unless they are missing ALL the possible daily AP.

    I try to look at it from the perspective of a new player. At whatever point they become interested in AP rewards, acquiring the unique rewards will be a very long term goal, which has always been true for any player. But once they realize they are locked out from ever achieving the last available rewards due to the missing ap, that's going to be a hit to their initial interest and excitement. It's not a huge problem, but it's easily remedied and seems worth addressing given all of the energy anet has put into easing the introduction of new players in the past . . .

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 9, 2020

    @Gop.8713 said:
    I try to look at it from the perspective of a new player. At whatever point they become interested in AP rewards, acquiring the unique rewards will be a very long term goal, which has always been true for any player. But once they realize they are locked out from ever achieving the last available rewards due to the missing ap, that's going to be a hit to their initial interest and excitement.

    Before the Icebrood Saga was released everyone was excluded from the 2nd backguard. Everyone is still excluded from the entire collection of Pinnacle weapon skins and 4 of the achievement titles. Remember before Heart of Thorns nobody had Hellfire/Radiant chest or leggings, and initially we only had access to the helmet and shoulders, boots were added later. Your argument will have merit once the top player reaches the "end" of the achievement reward track and they have all the rewards available to them. Right now it's not only a new player that has unreachable rewards, but everyone, that's how the achievement rewards work. I'm waiting to see what new reward they will add at 45k AP because there isn't any there, I guess we'll know once the top player reaches that point.

    Edit:

    In this context we're discussing players who started too late to acquire the AP that would allow them to reach the last currently available unique reward along the ap reward track.

    By the time they reach that point, new AP will be added allowing them to earn that reward. Again, your argument will have merit if one or both of the following conditions are met:
    1) Anet stops adding more achievement points
    2) Someone reaches the top of the achievement rewards
    At that point a discussion about a "catch up" mechanic for newer players will have merit. Right now it's rather pointless.

    Edit 2:
    The current maximum AP is around 43259 Achievement Points, give or take, meaning the top player in the world has quite a few more achievements to get as they are at 41817 AP.

  • banshee.9328banshee.9328 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 9, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    The current maximum AP is around 43259 Achievement Points, give or take, meaning the top player in the world has quite a few more achievements to get as they are at 41817 AP.

    Max is less than 42k. Top 3 players have almost no achievements left to do and I doubt they lost any on the way (LS1 or old festivals)

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @banshee.9328 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    The current maximum AP is around 43259 Achievement Points, give or take, meaning the top player in the world has quite a few more achievements to get as they are at 41817 AP.

    Max is less than 42k. Top 3 players have almost no achievements left to do.

    Maybe it's some weird ones like black lion collections. The API shows 37606 Achievement Points currently as the maximum but those don't include the unavailable ones (historical / festival) which are almost 6k. But maybe there is a miscalculation somewhere

  • Gop.8713Gop.8713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:
    I try to look at it from the perspective of a new player. At whatever point they become interested in AP rewards, acquiring the unique rewards will be a very long term goal, which has always been true for any player. But once they realize they are locked out from ever achieving the last available rewards due to the missing ap, that's going to be a hit to their initial interest and excitement.

    Before the Icebrood Saga was released everyone was excluded from the 2nd backguard.

    And now some are not, but some are, by virtue of ap that is missing due to content anet would like to restore if they could. Nothing you said addresses this point . . .

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 9, 2020

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    ... I don't even know what you are talking about by now.

    Clearly. You interjected yourself into a discussion about the missing AP from LS1 and how it locked new players out from the highest currently available unique rewards on the AP reward track. But you thought we were discussing daily AP, which we were not. But no blood no foul, I forgive you. Glhf :)

    Sorry, I went by what was being discussed in the thread, which from a perspective of someone complaining about max AP, is far more relevant in concern to daily AP, which are also mentioned over and over in this thread.

    As far as Living World Season 1 missed AP, I've already pointed to the fact that the actual amount of missed AP is insignificant for current players since it's not more than 3-4k, but yes, I do favor some way of reintroducing that content (more than the AP) with maybe some way to reacquire the AP from then.

    Then again, I did point that out back in 2018, even bolded it as first sentence in my comment from then.

    EDIT:
    read through the thread again, the lost AP to season 1 is actually even less than I remembered, being a total of around slightly above 2k. The fact players make such a fuss about missing out on these AP when sitting at 13-16k AP total is confusing to me when the total amount of available AP has reached above 40k. Anyone below 20k AP has enough content to work through to gain AP if desired, unless they are missing ALL the possible daily AP.

    I try to look at it from the perspective of a new player. At whatever point they become interested in AP rewards, acquiring the unique rewards will be a very long term goal, which has always been true for any player. But once they realize they are locked out from ever achieving the last available rewards due to the missing ap, that's going to be a hit to their initial interest and excitement. It's not a huge problem, but it's easily remedied and seems worth addressing given all of the energy anet has put into easing the introduction of new players in the past . . .

    I doubt there is a ton of "new players" who breeze through 4 years of dailies and 8 years of achievement points only to find themselves locked out of those last 2k AP.

    Even topic creator, who was so anxious to gather AP, has by their own admission gone from 13k to 16k achievement points in the last 1.5 years. That doesn't even cover the daily achievement points which were possible in that time period. I have gained more AP in that time and I have been daily AP capped for nearly a year with being quite high AP wise (35.6k atm) and inactive for 1/2 a year in that time period.

    I have to side with maddoctor.2738 on this one, though as mentioned I am in favor of somehow making Season 1 playable again even if I have a great chunk of those AP, mostly for the story cohesion imo:

    • new players have enough on their plate to work towards IF achievement points are to their interest
    • adding new ways to gain achievements points via new achievements full-fills the exact same function, increasing maximum AP possible, while being of benefit to all players
  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:
    I try to look at it from the perspective of a new player. At whatever point they become interested in AP rewards, acquiring the unique rewards will be a very long term goal, which has always been true for any player. But once they realize they are locked out from ever achieving the last available rewards due to the missing ap, that's going to be a hit to their initial interest and excitement.

    Before the Icebrood Saga was released everyone was excluded from the 2nd backguard.

    And now some are not, but some are, by virtue of ap that is missing due to content anet would like to restore if they could. Nothing you said addresses this point . . .

    There is nothing to address there as more AP enter the game, more rewards are becoming available. That happens for everyone right now, once we reach a cap on either the rewards, or the achievements, then the point will become valid.

  • banshee.9328banshee.9328 Member ✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Maybe it's some weird ones like black lion collections. The API shows 37606 Achievement Points currently as the maximum but those don't include the unavailable ones (historical / festival) which are almost 6k. But maybe there is a miscalculation somewhere

    These numbers may include achievements never introduced to players or doubled ones or WIP ones. I personally lost like 350AP to LS1/festivals and have less than 90AP earnable having right now a little bit more than 41,4k.

  • I think one of the frustrating bits is being forced to get the first three pieces of the other set after 9k AP. You need to gather 11k more before you start getting the set you actually want again. A lot of folks seem to get miffed about AP as a grind in that window because the daily cap stops passive AP gain and the goal seems a long way off.

  • Dante.1763Dante.1763 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Grolorm.4072 said:
    I think one of the frustrating bits is being forced to get the first three pieces of the other set after 9k AP. You need to gather 11k more before you start getting the set you actually want again. A lot of folks seem to get miffed about AP as a grind in that window because the daily cap stops passive AP gain and the goal seems a long way off.

    This i agree with. I want the entire molten set, specifically the chest piece but i have another -7k- AP to go before im able to even select that.

    Amana Silentchild; My Main
    Ember Wandertooth; The Kingslayer, Kianda Redpaw; The Blazing Light
    Why GW is Called Guildwars

  • Gop.8713Gop.8713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    ... I don't even know what you are talking about by now.

    Clearly. You interjected yourself into a discussion about the missing AP from LS1 and how it locked new players out from the highest currently available unique rewards on the AP reward track. But you thought we were discussing daily AP, which we were not. But no blood no foul, I forgive you. Glhf :)

    Sorry, I went by what was being discussed in the thread, which from a perspective of someone complaining about max AP, is far more relevant in concern to daily AP, which are also mentioned over and over in this thread.

    As far as Living World Season 1 missed AP, I've already pointed to the fact that the actual amount of missed AP is insignificant for current players since it's not more than 3-4k, but yes, I do favor some way of reintroducing that content (more than the AP) with maybe some way to reacquire the AP from then.

    Then again, I did point that out back in 2018, even bolded it as first sentence in my comment from then.

    EDIT:
    read through the thread again, the lost AP to season 1 is actually even less than I remembered, being a total of around slightly above 2k. The fact players make such a fuss about missing out on these AP when sitting at 13-16k AP total is confusing to me when the total amount of available AP has reached above 40k. Anyone below 20k AP has enough content to work through to gain AP if desired, unless they are missing ALL the possible daily AP.

    I try to look at it from the perspective of a new player. At whatever point they become interested in AP rewards, acquiring the unique rewards will be a very long term goal, which has always been true for any player. But once they realize they are locked out from ever achieving the last available rewards due to the missing ap, that's going to be a hit to their initial interest and excitement. It's not a huge problem, but it's easily remedied and seems worth addressing given all of the energy anet has put into easing the introduction of new players in the past . . .

    I doubt there is a ton of "new players" who breeze through 4 years of dailies and 8 years of achievement points only to find themselves locked out of those last 2k AP.

    Yes, a very long term goal, which has always been true for any player, as I mentioned. But remember that players new enough to have missed out on at least some LS1 ap could have been playing for over six years at this point. And that's in addition to players who were around earlier but missed out on the content for whatever reason, as well as the players who are just starting out. All of these groups are affected. The vast majority of the player base, if I were to venture a guess . . .

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:
    I try to look at it from the perspective of a new player. At whatever point they become interested in AP rewards, acquiring the unique rewards will be a very long term goal, which has always been true for any player. But once they realize they are locked out from ever achieving the last available rewards due to the missing ap, that's going to be a hit to their initial interest and excitement.

    Before the Icebrood Saga was released everyone was excluded from the 2nd backguard.

    And now some are not, but some are, by virtue of ap that is missing due to content anet would like to restore if they could. Nothing you said addresses this point . . .

    There is nothing to address there as more AP enter the game, more rewards are becoming available. That happens for everyone right now, once we reach a cap on either the rewards, or the achievements, then the point will become valid.

    When you say that there is nothing to address, all it tells me is that you do not understand the problem. Reaching a cap on the rewards would actually solve the problem, not create it. It's what the other poster suggested on the previous page, that anet could solve the problem by not introducing any more unique rewards. It's the same thing as removing the unique rewards, it just takes longer and costs less . . .

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 10, 2020

    @Gop.8713 said:
    When you say that there is nothing to address, all it tells me is that you do not understand the problem. Reaching a cap on the rewards would actually solve the problem, not create it. It's what the other poster suggested on the previous page, that anet could solve the problem by not introducing any more unique rewards. It's the same thing as removing the unique rewards, it just takes longer and costs less . . .

    There is no problem to solve here at the moment. Adding more unique rewards to the achievement rewards is something that will come, there are places that have no rewards and something new and unique can fill those spots. Why would they remove the unique rewards from the achievement rewards? They need to add more or revamp current ones instead as the old Hellfire/Radiant sets do show their age compared to more recent skins. As long as there is enough points to get them (and there is or will be since they add new points constantly) there is no issue with having unique rewards.

    The only "problem" I see is for players that take their calculator and calculate how many AP are available to them at this point, even though they are far far away from completing them and see that they can't get the final available reward. But that's not a problem, by the time they finish what they have available new AP will have joined the game which makes this entirely pointless. It's like a player with 1k AP complaining that the total they can get 37k and they can't get the 39k reward because they are missing the AP of Season 1, that's a dumb reason to complain, by the time you get that 37k more than enough AP will have joined the game to allow you to reach not only 39k but 50k.

    You are creating a problem that doesn't need to exist.

  • I don't understand. What unique rewards? There haven't been any new rewards added for years.
    Are these 'new players' really worrying about the rewards at 60,000 AP? If it took 7 years to get to 42,000 with a big infusion of AP at the beginning, how long until 60,000?

  • Gop.8713Gop.8713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:
    When you say that there is nothing to address, all it tells me is that you do not understand the problem. Reaching a cap on the rewards would actually solve the problem, not create it. It's what the other poster suggested on the previous page, that anet could solve the problem by not introducing any more unique rewards. It's the same thing as removing the unique rewards, it just takes longer and costs less . . .

    There is no problem to solve here at the moment. Adding more unique rewards to the achievement rewards is something that will come, there are places that have no rewards and something new and unique can fill those spots. Why would they remove the unique rewards from the achievement rewards? They need to add more or revamp current ones instead as the old Hellfire/Radiant sets do show their age compared to more recent skins. As long as there is enough points to get them (and there is or will be since they add new points constantly) there is no issue with having unique rewards.

    The only "problem" I see is for players that take their calculator and calculate how many AP are available to them at this point, even though they are far far away from completing them and see that they can't get the final available reward. But that's not a problem, by the time they finish what they have available new AP will have joined the game which makes this entirely pointless. It's like a player with 1k AP complaining that the total they can get 37k and they can't get the 39k reward because they are missing the AP of Season 1, that's a dumb reason to complain, by the time you get that 37k more than enough AP will have joined the game to allow you to reach not only 39k but 50k.

    You are creating a problem that doesn't need to exist.

    So what you're actually saying is that you recognize and understand the problem, but you choose to ignore the problem bc it's not important to you and you feel entitled to tell other ppl what should be important to them. I don't have any problem with that, it's an opinion that I can disagree with. It was your earlier claims that the problem does not exist that I was disputing . . .

    @Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:
    I don't understand. What unique rewards? There haven't been any new rewards added for years.
    Are these 'new players' really worrying about the rewards at 60,000 AP? If it took 7 years to get to 42,000 with a big infusion of AP at the beginning, how long until 60,000?

    You haven't been keeping up with the discussion :(

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gop.8713 said:
    So what you're actually saying is that you recognize and understand the problem, but you choose to ignore the problem bc it's not important to you and you feel entitled to tell other ppl what should be important to them. I don't have any problem with that, it's an opinion that I can disagree with. It was your earlier claims that the problem does not exist that I was disputing . . .

    I put the word in quotes, because that's a "problem" that doesn't exist in reality, it's a made up situation that is being presented as a problem that needs a solution, when it's not a problem to begin with. You need a problem before you apply a solution.

    It doesn't really matter what I believe and what is important to me, you claimed that this so called "problem" affects the majority of the population:

    All of these groups are affected. The vast majority of the player base, if I were to venture a guess . . .

    When it affects only those that are using a calculator to plan the next few years of their playtime in the game. That's not the vast majority of the player base, not by a long shot. In fact I'd venture a guess that those that even care about achievement points are a tiny minority of the player base. And of that tiny minority, there is a tiny minority that will pre-plan their entire playtime in advance and shockingly find out that some rewards are out of reach.

    Even though every single player is at the exact same situation, even those at the top of the leaderboards, because there aren't enough AP to get everything, yet. Should they complain? No. They wait for new AP to become available, that's how achievements work. As I said, this will only become a problem when there are no more AP entering the game, and when the top players reach the actual top. We are a very very long way from either of those.

  • Gop.8713Gop.8713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:
    So what you're actually saying is that you recognize and understand the problem, but you choose to ignore the problem bc it's not important to you and you feel entitled to tell other ppl what should be important to them. I don't have any problem with that, it's an opinion that I can disagree with. It was your earlier claims that the problem does not exist that I was disputing . . .

    I put the word in quotes, because that's a "problem" that doesn't exist in reality, it's a made up situation that is being presented as a problem that needs a solution, when it's not a problem to begin with. You need a problem before you apply a solution.

    It doesn't really matter what I believe and what is important to me, you claimed that this so called "problem" affects the majority of the population:

    All of these groups are affected. The vast majority of the player base, if I were to venture a guess . . .

    And so it does . . .

    When it affects only those that are using a calculator to plan the next few years of their playtime in the game. That's not the vast majority of the player base, not by a long shot. In fact I'd venture a guess that those that even care about achievement points are a tiny minority of the player base. And of that tiny minority, there is a tiny minority that will pre-plan their entire playtime in advance and shockingly find out that some rewards are out of reach.

    You're confused here. What I said was that everyone who is currently missing the 'lost' ap is affected by the fact that anet is unable to restore LS1 to players who were not around for its original run. I made no comment at all about how many of those affected cared about it or even were aware of it . . .

    Even though every single player is at the exact same situation, even those at the top of the leaderboards, because there aren't enough AP to get everything, yet. Should they complain? No. They wait for new AP to become available, that's how achievements work. As I said, this will only become a problem when there are no more AP entering the game, and when the top players reach the actual top. We are a very very long way from either of those.

    This is the same error you were making earlier when you were insisting the problem didn't exist. You're moving backwards . . .

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gop.8713 said:
    You're confused here. What I said was that everyone who is currently missing the 'lost' ap is affected by the fact that anet is unable to restore LS1 to players who were not around for its original run.

    Except most players are not really affected by that, because most players are not hardcore achievement hunters. Even if those achievements were still available, most players would probably never get them anyway. Even OP, loudly complaining about this "injustice", is clearly not trying very hard to earn APs
    Like maddoctor said, it's mostly a fictional problem.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gop.8713 said:
    You're confused here. What I said was that everyone who is currently missing the 'lost' ap is affected by the fact that anet is unable to restore LS1 to players who were not around for its original run.

    So? Missing the LS1 AP isn't an actual problem. Missing LS1 for story purposes is, missing the AP that came with it is not.

    This is the same error you were making earlier when you were insisting the problem didn't exist.

    Because that "problem" still doesn't exist.

    The top player has ~42k AP, the max they can get is less than 43k AP, is it a problem that they can't reach 60k to get that title there? No, because more AP will come in the future and allow them to reach that point. It's the same with someone that has 36k and missed the entirety of LS1 (~6k AP total). They WILL reach any achievement reward provided Arenanet keeps adding new achievements, and they do. That player that misses the 6k S1 AP and could get the next reward if they had them available, would indeed have a problem if the game died and no more AP were added. In that case then yes this would become a real problem and not a fictional one, but I think at that point that player would have more important problems with the game than missing some AP rewards.

  • Rasimir.6239Rasimir.6239 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    There is nothing to address there as more AP enter the game, more rewards are becoming available. That happens for everyone right now, once we reach a cap on either the rewards, or the achievements, then the point will become valid.

    When you say that there is nothing to address, all it tells me is that you do not understand the problem. Reaching a cap on the rewards would actually solve the problem, not create it. It's what the other poster suggested on the previous page, that anet could solve the problem by not introducing any more unique rewards. It's the same thing as removing the unique rewards, it just takes longer and costs less . . .

    But fixing this "problem" the way you propose creates another, just as potent problem: reward-oriented players have nothing unique to strive for any more, thus lose incentive to even play the game.

    Whether the "problem" is unique rewards being tied to huge (for some even unreasonable) time and resource investment or the "problem" is not enough unique rewards available that you can invest your gametime in reaching, neither of these is universally more important than the other, and neither of these should be exclusively followed if the game wants to appeal to a broad playerbase.

    This game is great at making rewards available to a broad part of the playerbase. Even many originally time-limited unique rewards from season 1 have been made available again through different sources. Personally I don't see any benefit to the playerbase as a whole by removing the few unique loyalty rewards this game offers (even if I probably won't get access to them for a loooong time, if I even keep playing that long).

  • Gop.8713Gop.8713 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 10, 2020

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:
    You're confused here. What I said was that everyone who is currently missing the 'lost' ap is affected by the fact that anet is unable to restore LS1 to players who were not around for its original run.

    Except most players are not really affected by that, because most players are not hardcore achievement hunters. Even if those achievements were still available, most players would probably never get them anyway. Even OP, loudly complaining about this "injustice", is clearly not trying very hard to earn APs
    Like maddoctor said, it's mostly a fictional problem.

    You've proceeded from a false assumption. A player need not be a 'hardcore achievement hunter' to receive ap . . .

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:
    You're confused here. What I said was that everyone who is currently missing the 'lost' ap is affected by the fact that anet is unable to restore LS1 to players who were not around for its original run.

    So? Missing the LS1 AP isn't an actual problem. Missing LS1 for story purposes is, missing the AP that came with it is not.

    Yes, we've established that you feel entitled to tell others what should be important to them. I disagree with you, but it's an opinion question so no harm done. But whether the ap is missing, whether that loss is unintended, and whether the loss affects players are not opinion questions . . .

    This is the same error you were making earlier when you were insisting the problem didn't exist.

    Because that "problem" still doesn't exist.

    Again, I must remind you that something does not cease to exist simply bc it is unimportant to you as an individual. You've already acknowledged as much. I very much believe if you could start saying 'this isn't important to me' instead of 'this doesn't exist' it would help you tremendously in understanding why your position does not follow from the facts . . .

    The top player has ~42k AP, the max they can get is less than 43k AP, is it a problem that they can't reach 60k to get that title there?

    Is there ap that was previously available and is not available to that player currently due to lost content that the developer of the game would prefer to make available if possible? If not, what does this have to do with the issue at hand . . ?

    No, because more AP will come in the future and allow them to reach that point.

    And when it does, any missing ap will still be missing. They will still not be as far along as they would be otherwise . . .

    It's the same with someone that has 36k and missed the entirety of LS1 (~6k AP total). They WILL reach any achievement reward provided Arenanet keeps adding new achievements, and they do.

    But they will never recover the lost ap . . .

    That player that misses the 6k S1 AP and could get the next reward if they had them available, would indeed have a problem if the game died and no more AP were added. In that case then yes this would become a real problem and not a fictional one, but I think at that point that player would have more important problems with the game than missing some AP rewards.

    While I agree that it would be nice if our personal preferences could define reality in that way, they do not . . .

    @Rasimir.6239 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    There is nothing to address there as more AP enter the game, more rewards are becoming available. That happens for everyone right now, once we reach a cap on either the rewards, or the achievements, then the point will become valid.

    When you say that there is nothing to address, all it tells me is that you do not understand the problem. Reaching a cap on the rewards would actually solve the problem, not create it. It's what the other poster suggested on the previous page, that anet could solve the problem by not introducing any more unique rewards. It's the same thing as removing the unique rewards, it just takes longer and costs less . . .

    But fixing this "problem" the way you propose creates another, just as potent problem: reward-oriented players have nothing unique to strive for any more, thus lose incentive to even play the game.

    This is untrue. Removing unique rewards from the ap reward track does not remove unique rewards from the game. It's also not the only possible solution. I think it's the best solution bc of the saved dev time which could, ofc, be spent instead on accessible unique rewards, if desired . . .

    Whether the "problem" is unique rewards being tied to huge (for some even unreasonable) time and resource investment or the "problem" is not enough unique rewards available that you can invest your gametime in reaching, neither of these is universally more important than the other, and neither of these should be exclusively followed if the game wants to appeal to a broad playerbase.

    What if the problem is that there is ap missing from the game due to lost content the developer would like to restore if they could do so . . ?

    This game is great at making rewards available to a broad part of the playerbase. Even many originally time-limited unique rewards from season 1 have been made available again through different sources.

    Which is great evidence that anet would like to make the lost LS1 content as accessible as they can. Thank you . . .

    Personally I don't see any benefit to the playerbase as a whole by removing the few unique loyalty rewards this game offers (even if I probably won't get access to them for a loooong time, if I even keep playing that long).

    Happily, removing rewards from the game entirely would not be required, while removing loyalty rewards isn't even being discussed at all . . .

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Rasimir.6239 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    There is nothing to address there as more AP enter the game, more rewards are becoming available. That happens for everyone right now, once we reach a cap on either the rewards, or the achievements, then the point will become valid.

    When you say that there is nothing to address, all it tells me is that you do not understand the problem. Reaching a cap on the rewards would actually solve the problem, not create it. It's what the other poster suggested on the previous page, that anet could solve the problem by not introducing any more unique rewards. It's the same thing as removing the unique rewards, it just takes longer and costs less . . .

    But fixing this "problem" the way you propose creates another, just as potent problem: reward-oriented players have nothing unique to strive for any more, thus lose incentive to even play the game.

    This is untrue. Removing unique rewards from the ap reward track does not remove unique rewards from the game. It's also not the only possible solution. I think it's the best solution bc of the saved dev time which could, ofc, be spent instead on accessible unique rewards, if desired . . .

    That's like saying: removing unique rewards from any part of the game would have no affect on that content.

    Now one can argue IF there should be unique rewards behind AP, but please be honest in your argument. If you wan to argue that unique rewards should not be behind AP, fine. Don't pretend this would cause no issues though with parts of the player base. That's very dishonest.

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Whether the "problem" is unique rewards being tied to huge (for some even unreasonable) time and resource investment or the "problem" is not enough unique rewards available that you can invest your gametime in reaching, neither of these is universally more important than the other, and neither of these should be exclusively followed if the game wants to appeal to a broad playerbase.

    What if the problem is that there is ap missing from the game due to lost content the developer would like to restore if they could do so . . ?

    I am missing some Season 1 AP with a very high AP total, as such I would be part of your potential target group of players who would need those missing AP. Yet I care much more about future achievements then having to tread back to getting the Season 1 AP I missed. It's a nonissue for anyone who is not a hardcore achievement hunter, and any one new to the game will have to work years to even get close.

    You keep willfully omitting the aspect that to reintroduce this content, and these achievements, future content would have to suffer by mere reason that the resources for developing either are limited.

    So yes, between reintroducing missing old content and achievements, and introducing new content with new achievements, the later is the wiser decision from a resource allocation perspective and benefits far more players.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 10, 2020

    @Gop.8713 said:
    Is there ap that was previously available and is not available to that player currently due to lost content that the developer of the game would prefer to make available if possible?
    And when it does, any missing ap will still be missing. They will still not be as far along as they would be otherwise . . .

    So? That's irrelevant, missing AP in no way prevent a player from earning any of the achievement rewards as long as new achievements are added to the game. When they stop you can argue all you want.

    But they will never recover the lost ap . . .

    I believe that your issue isn't with the rewards, since a player that starts now WILL get them, but rather your issue is with the number associated with achievement points that will never be as high as the number that the top player has (provided they keep playing the game). You might be a competitive hardcore achievement hunter and feel entitled to being at the top of the boards, and all the AP you are missing make you feel inferior. In that case I'm really sorry for you and since this "problem" doesn't apply to any kind of significant portion of the player base, while also being an "unhealthy" attitude to begin with, I still consider this a no-problem.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:
    You're confused here. What I said was that everyone who is currently missing the 'lost' ap is affected by the fact that anet is unable to restore LS1 to players who were not around for its original run.

    Except most players are not really affected by that, because most players are not hardcore achievement hunters. Even if those achievements were still available, most players would probably never get them anyway. Even OP, loudly complaining about this "injustice", is clearly not trying very hard to earn APs
    Like maddoctor said, it's mostly a fictional problem.

    You've proceeded from a false assumption. A player need not be a 'hardcore achievement hunter' to receive ap . . .

    True, but when someone is at below 20k AP range, them worrying they can't reach 40k due to missing LS1 APs is disingenious at best, as it is clear it's not what is preventing them from reaching higher AP tiers. And as for "most players" being affected - remember, that "most players" are well below 10k AP, and will never reach any higher AP values. Again, not due to not having access to LS1.

    Lacking the access to LS1 story? Yeah, that is a problem that can possibly impact a majority of the playerbase. Lost AP? Not so much.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • I can't recall the Devs ever stating that they wished to re-instate Season One Achievement Points. Only that they would like to make Season One content available in some way. Some has returned as Fractals, some has returned as Festivals.

    If they were to ever 'bring back' any Season One content, it would essentially be new content, with new APs for everyone to earn. Just like with the returned Festivals.

  • Gop.8713Gop.8713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Rasimir.6239 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    There is nothing to address there as more AP enter the game, more rewards are becoming available. That happens for everyone right now, once we reach a cap on either the rewards, or the achievements, then the point will become valid.

    When you say that there is nothing to address, all it tells me is that you do not understand the problem. Reaching a cap on the rewards would actually solve the problem, not create it. It's what the other poster suggested on the previous page, that anet could solve the problem by not introducing any more unique rewards. It's the same thing as removing the unique rewards, it just takes longer and costs less . . .

    But fixing this "problem" the way you propose creates another, just as potent problem: reward-oriented players have nothing unique to strive for any more, thus lose incentive to even play the game.

    This is untrue. Removing unique rewards from the ap reward track does not remove unique rewards from the game. It's also not the only possible solution. I think it's the best solution bc of the saved dev time which could, ofc, be spent instead on accessible unique rewards, if desired . . .

    That's like saying: removing unique rewards from any part of the game would have no affect on that content.

    Now one can argue IF there should be unique rewards behind AP, but please be honest in your argument. If you wan to argue that unique rewards should not be behind AP, fine. Don't pretend this would cause no issues though with parts of the player base. That's very dishonest.

    Except I didn't say that. We weren't even discussing it. The other poster suggested that removing the unique rewards would leave players with nothing to strive for, so I pointed out that removing the unique rewards from the ap track would not mean removing unique rewards from the game. Plenty left to strive for. Nothing dishonest there, it's just the best idea I've been able to come up with. I'm sure there are lots of other solutions available and perhaps someone will one day share one that I like better, but as yet I haven't heard it. For me as a player personally, I'm pretty neutral towards the unique rewards and ap as a reward generally. I use ap as more of a guide to content I haven't experienced yet. If I had a strong personal investment in this I wouldn't trust my own motives . . .

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Whether the "problem" is unique rewards being tied to huge (for some even unreasonable) time and resource investment or the "problem" is not enough unique rewards available that you can invest your gametime in reaching, neither of these is universally more important than the other, and neither of these should be exclusively followed if the game wants to appeal to a broad playerbase.

    What if the problem is that there is ap missing from the game due to lost content the developer would like to restore if they could do so . . ?

    I am missing some Season 1 AP with a very high AP total, as such I would be part of your potential target group of players who would need those missing AP. Yet I care much more about future achievements then having to tread back to getting the Season 1 AP I missed. It's a nonissue for anyone who is not a hardcore achievement hunter, and any one new to the game will have to work years to even get close.

    You keep willfully omitting the aspect that to reintroduce this content, and these achievements, future content would have to suffer by mere reason that the resources for developing either are limited.

    So yes, between reintroducing missing old content and achievements, and introducing new content with new achievements, the later is the wiser decision from a resource allocation perspective and benefits far more players.

    Except, again, I never said I wanted anet to spend the resources to reintroduce the old content. My point is that removing the unique rewards from the track eliminates part of the cost of not being able to restore the content, and this solution appeals to me precisely bc it has no dev cost . . .

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:
    Is there ap that was previously available and is not available to that player currently due to lost content that the developer of the game would prefer to make available if possible?
    And when it does, any missing ap will still be missing. They will still not be as far along as they would be otherwise . . .

    So? That's irrelevant, missing AP in no way prevent a player from earning any of the achievement rewards as long as new achievements are added to the game. When they stop you can argue all you want.

    Saying this over and over again doesn't make it any less false, unfortunately . . .

    But they will never recover the lost ap . . .

    I believe that your issue isn't with the rewards, since a player that starts now WILL get them, but rather your issue is with the number associated with achievement points that will never be as high as the number that the top player has (provided they keep playing the game). You might be a competitive hardcore achievement hunter and feel entitled to being at the top of the boards, and all the AP you are missing make you feel inferior. In that case I'm really sorry for you and since this "problem" doesn't apply to any kind of significant portion of the player base, while also being an "unhealthy" attitude to begin with, I still consider this a no-problem.

    This is a bizarre conclusion to draw, as my solution would not affect anyone's ap total. You may want to stop and consider how you came to this conclusion that did not follow from the facts. What kinds of assumptions did you make? Have you made similar assumptions elsewhere? Could those assumptions be clouding other parts of your reasoning . . ?

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:
    You're confused here. What I said was that everyone who is currently missing the 'lost' ap is affected by the fact that anet is unable to restore LS1 to players who were not around for its original run.

    Except most players are not really affected by that, because most players are not hardcore achievement hunters. Even if those achievements were still available, most players would probably never get them anyway. Even OP, loudly complaining about this "injustice", is clearly not trying very hard to earn APs
    Like maddoctor said, it's mostly a fictional problem.

    You've proceeded from a false assumption. A player need not be a 'hardcore achievement hunter' to receive ap . . .

    True, but when someone is at below 20k AP range, them worrying they can't reach 40k due to missing LS1 APs is disingenious at best, as it is clear it's not what is preventing them from reaching higher AP tiers. And as for "most players" being affected - remember, that "most players" are well below 10k AP, and will never reach any higher AP values. Again, not due to not having access to LS1.

    Lacking the access to LS1 story? Yeah, that is a problem that can possibly impact a majority of the playerbase. Lost AP? Not so much.

    Perhaps I didn't make my point clearly. I'm talking about two separate things here. First, I was describing, as an anecdote, the sort of player that makes me think this is a problem worth solving, especially given the low cost of the solution. That's the player who gets excited about ap, realizes a chunk of it will never be available to them and so loses at least some of that initial interest. It doesn't matter how many of those players there are, bc it's just a personal motivation. Something an individual wants or doesn't want is never a very good reason to make a change to the game. When I made that reply I was merely explaining to that poster why I personally am interested in this, since they had been confused and thought I was talking about something else . . .

    The second thing, which is the thing that matters, is that this problem does, in fact, affect any player that is missing LS1 ap. If LS1 was available as the subsequent seasons are, I'm guessing -- and acknowledging that it is a guess -- that most players who have not now, in reality, played any LS1 would have instead played at least some of that content, and garnered ap from their adventures. Therefore, those players are affected by the missing ap. Their ap total is not relevant to that fact. In order to argue that the missing LS1 ap does not affect them, you would also have to argue that removing all of the LS2 ap would not affect them. Nor would removing all daily ap, or any (all?) other segments. It does not follow . . .

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gop.8713 said:
    Saying this over and over again doesn't make it any less false, unfortunately . . .

    How is it false? Any player starting now will have access to every achievement reward in the game, current and future one, provided new achievements are added to the game and the player keeps on playing the game. I'm not sure how is this even a point of contention. Saying that it's false, doesn't make it false unfortunately.

    This is a bizarre conclusion to draw, as my solution would not affect anyone's ap total. You may want to stop and consider how you came to this conclusion that did not follow from the facts. What kinds of assumptions did you make? Have you made similar assumptions elsewhere? Could those assumptions be clouding other parts of your reasoning . . ?

    My conclusion is based on the fact that as explained above, every player, both current and future one, has access to the same rewards. But since you cannot understand something as basic as that, you are drawing the wrong conclusions. Also, your obsession with the number of AP you have/can earn is clouding your reasoning, it's just a simple number, you will get all the rewards associated with achievement points, regardless if you have or not have access to LS1 points.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 11, 2020

    @Gop.8713 said:
    Perhaps I didn't make my point clearly. I'm talking about two separate things here. First, I was describing, as an anecdote, the sort of player that makes me think this is a problem worth solving, especially given the low cost of the solution. That's the player who gets excited about ap, realizes a chunk of it will never be available to them and so loses at least some of that initial interest. It doesn't matter how many of those players there are, bc it's just a personal motivation. Something an individual wants or doesn't want is never a very good reason to make a change to the game. When I made that reply I was merely explaining to that poster why I personally am interested in this, since they had been confused and thought I was talking about something else . . .

    And, so, instead, you proposed a "solution" that will cause another hypothetical sort of player (if we're now describing anecdotes to each other), that gets excited about APs, to realize that there are no unique rewards beyond a certain point and lose at least some of that initial interest.
    Why are you concerned for the first player, but not for the second? Why do you not consider the possibility, that your "solution" can possibly demotivate the first player as well?

    One has to wonder if it's not the result of thinking along the way "if i can't get those rewards now, noone else should get them either".

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Aargh, do players really want those Pinnacle weapons so bad? Especially all of them?
    Can't say I've seen a single one in use, though I have seen the Chest piece(s).

  • @Gop.8713 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:
    You do the thing, you progress along the track, which provides rewards. It is a reward track. It's absurd to argue otherwise . . .

    There is no "extra AP gain buff", like with reward tracks. It's not on the reward track entry on the wiki. It's infinite and not finite, it's not even complete. You can't see any of the rewards unless you data-mine it. It's not a reward track and it's absurd to argue otherwise.

    You're wrong and you should change your mind . . .

    Ok, I saw this and had to laugh. It’s too much like Detha in Ascalonian Catacombs “ Your plan is just stupid and won't work.”

    Only on Internet forums.

  • Gop.8713Gop.8713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:
    Saying this over and over again doesn't make it any less false, unfortunately . . .

    How is it false? Any player starting now will have access to every achievement reward in the game, current and future one, provided new achievements are added to the game and the player keeps on playing the game. I'm not sure how is this even a point of contention. Saying that it's false, doesn't make it false unfortunately.

    Okay, we'll give it another go. Player has X ap. They would have more, but some has become unavailable due to a technical limitation on certain content. As Player gains ap, the amount that they are missing does not change. Therefore, until anet removes unique rewards from the track, there will always be rewards that Player is locked out of due to this missing content. The specific reward(s) Player is locked out of will change, but Player's situation will not . . .

    This is a bizarre conclusion to draw, as my solution would not affect anyone's ap total. You may want to stop and consider how you came to this conclusion that did not follow from the facts. What kinds of assumptions did you make? Have you made similar assumptions elsewhere? Could those assumptions be clouding other parts of your reasoning . . ?

    My conclusion is based on the fact that as explained above, every player, both current and future one, has access to the same rewards. But since you cannot understand something as basic as that, you are drawing the wrong conclusions. Also, your obsession with the number of AP you have/can earn is clouding your reasoning, it's just a simple number, you will get all the rewards associated with achievement points, regardless if you have or not have access to LS1 points.

    So instead of considering why you made the initial error, you've chosen to compound it by ascribing to me still another motivation I don't actually possess. This is not the path to understanding . . .

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:
    Perhaps I didn't make my point clearly. I'm talking about two separate things here. First, I was describing, as an anecdote, the sort of player that makes me think this is a problem worth solving, especially given the low cost of the solution. That's the player who gets excited about ap, realizes a chunk of it will never be available to them and so loses at least some of that initial interest. It doesn't matter how many of those players there are, bc it's just a personal motivation. Something an individual wants or doesn't want is never a very good reason to make a change to the game. When I made that reply I was merely explaining to that poster why I personally am interested in this, since they had been confused and thought I was talking about something else . . .

    And, so, instead, you proposed a "solution" that will cause another hypothetical sort of player (if we're now describing anecdotes to each other), that gets excited about APs, to realize that there are no unique rewards beyond a certain point and lose at least some of that initial interest.
    Why are you concerned for the first player, but not for the second? Why do you not consider the possibility, that your "solution" can possibly demotivate the first player as well?

    One has to wonder if it's not the result of thinking along the way "if i can't get those rewards now, noone else should get them either".

    Unfortunate then that you chose to stop reading after the first half of the post . . .

    But to do you the courtesy of considering your perspective while you refuse to consider mine I am happy to consider the player you describe. I have pointed out multiple times that my solution is only the best I have seen. If you have a better solution which satisfies both of the players you describe, I am eager to hear it. If your answer is that you don't care about the first player -- or any of the others described in the second half of my reply that you chose to ignore -- they why is the consideration of the second player significant . . ?

    @Moira Shalaar.5620 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:
    You do the thing, you progress along the track, which provides rewards. It is a reward track. It's absurd to argue otherwise . . .

    There is no "extra AP gain buff", like with reward tracks. It's not on the reward track entry on the wiki. It's infinite and not finite, it's not even complete. You can't see any of the rewards unless you data-mine it. It's not a reward track and it's absurd to argue otherwise.

    You're wrong and you should change your mind . . .

    Ok, I saw this and had to laugh. It’s too much like Detha in Ascalonian Catacombs “ Your plan is just stupid and won't work.”

    Only on Internet forums.

    Thanks :)

    I was actually channeling an episode of This American Life, I think. I know where I got it from but I can't remember for certain where I heard the thing I got it from :p

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gop.8713 said:
    Therefore, until anet removes unique rewards from the track, there will always be rewards that Player is locked out of due to this missing content.

    That's false. As new AP is constantly added to the game a player will never be locked out of rewards due to the missing content. The missing content will play a role in a player's ability to acquire rewards when the game stops giving achievement points. If you want to be more specific, there is a reward at 60k AP, a title. If the game stops at 60k AP then players missing the Season 1 will miss that reward. If the game stops at 65800 AP (5800 is the amount of missing Season 1 + Festival AP) then no player ever will miss any kind of reward.

    So instead of considering why you made the initial error, you've chosen to compound it by ascribing to me still another motivation I don't actually possess. This is not the path to understanding . . .

    I made no error. As explained for the billionth time above, no player is locked out of rewards due to missing content. You are making this false assumption and base your entire argument on it, that's doesn't make it true though, it's still factually false.

  • Gop.8713Gop.8713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:
    Therefore, until anet removes unique rewards from the track, there will always be rewards that Player is locked out of due to this missing content.

    That's false. As new AP is constantly added to the game a player will never be locked out of rewards due to the missing content. The missing content will play a role in a player's ability to acquire rewards when the game stops giving achievement points. If you want to be more specific, there is a reward at 60k AP, a title. If the game stops at 60k AP then players missing the Season 1 will miss that reward. If the game stops at 65800 AP (5800 is the amount of missing Season 1 + Festival AP) then no player ever will miss any kind of reward.

    This would only be true if anet chooses to remove unique rewards from the track at that point. Your selective quoting speaks volumes here . . .

    So instead of considering why you made the initial error, you've chosen to compound it by ascribing to me still another motivation I don't actually possess. This is not the path to understanding . . .

    I made no error. As explained for the billionth time above, no player is locked out of rewards due to missing content. You are making this false assumption and base your entire argument on it, that's doesn't make it true though, it's still factually false.

    You've made several, so I can understand why it might be difficult to keep them straight. When I referred to your error in attributing to me a motivation I don't actually possess compounding an earlier error, I was referring to the error in that chain of conversation, specifically when you somehow gathered that my solution of removing unique rewards from the reward track would somehow change ppl's ap . . .

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gop.8713 said:
    This would only be true if anet chooses to remove unique rewards from the track at that point. Your selective quoting speaks volumes here . . .

    When the game dies and stops adding any more AP we can see the total achievable amount by any player. If the number is higher than the amount of achievements required to earn the last reward + the missing AP, then there is no reason to remove the unique rewards from the game as everyone will have access to every reward. The only situation where a player will be actually locked out of some reward entirely will be if the game dies before we get 65800 AP (60k for the last reward + the missing AP) at that point, fresh players will be missing the final and pre-final unique rewards. The ones at 60k and 55k.

    The game launched with a little less than 7k AP, there are 15k from dailies, meaning a total of 22k. The current maximum is 42k minus that 22k we get that 20k AP were added to the game in 7 years. That's about 2.8k AP per year added to the game. With a maximum at 42k including the dailies, we need approximately 6.4 more years of Guild Wars 2 to reach the 60k reward. We'll see if the game is dead at that point or not, but I think it's a bit premature to talk about the end of achievement points at this point.

    When I referred to your error in attributing to me a motivation I don't actually possess compounding an earlier error, I was referring to the error in that chain of conversation, specifically when you somehow gathered that my solution of removing unique rewards from the reward track would somehow change ppl's ap . . .

    I never said that removing unique rewards would change ppl's AP that's something you just came up with. I said that since everyone can get all the rewards in the game, the only reason to complain about the missing AP from Season 1 is because someone is obsessed with the number of AP.

    Plus I was responding to this part:

    But they will never recover the lost ap . . .

    Which has nothing to do with the removal of unique rewards in the first place.

    Now you can reread what you didn't understand:

    I believe that your issue isn't with the rewards, since a player that starts now WILL get them, but rather your issue is with the number associated with achievement points that will never be as high as the number that the top player has (provided they keep playing the game). You might be a competitive hardcore achievement hunter and feel entitled to being at the top of the boards, and all the AP you are missing make you feel inferior. In that case I'm really sorry for you and since this "problem" doesn't apply to any kind of significant portion of the player base, while also being an "unhealthy" attitude to begin with, I still consider this a no-problem.

    And clearly see that it's an answer to your complaint about never recovering lost AP, and not about your suggestion about the removal of unique rewards. Which was explained why it's not needed multiple times already.

  • Gop.8713Gop.8713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:
    This would only be true if anet chooses to remove unique rewards from the track at that point. Your selective quoting speaks volumes here . . .

    When the game dies and stops adding any more AP we can see the total achievable amount by any player. If the number is higher than the amount of achievements required to earn the last reward + the missing AP, then there is no reason to remove the unique rewards from the game as everyone will have access to every reward. The only situation where a player will be actually locked out of some reward entirely will be if the game dies before we get 65800 AP (60k for the last reward + the missing AP) at that point, fresh players will be missing the final and pre-final unique rewards. The ones at 60k and 55k.

    The game launched with a little less than 7k AP, there are 15k from dailies, meaning a total of 22k. The current maximum is 42k minus that 22k we get that 20k AP were added to the game in 7 years. That's about 2.8k AP per year added to the game. With a maximum at 42k including the dailies, we need approximately 6.4 more years of Guild Wars 2 to reach the 60k reward. We'll see if the game is dead at that point or not, but I think it's a bit premature to talk about the end of achievement points at this point.

    Right! What you are saying is that once the amount of ap available (to everyone) exceeds the amount required for all of the unique rewards on the ap track, the problem will be solved. It's my solution exactly. If they never remove unique rewards, the problem will never be solved. So now the question to be asked is when should unique rewards be removed? I'd probably vote for removing all unique rewards that have not currently been unlocked by any player. Your vote would seem to be to remove all unique rewards that have not yet been datamined/created. My question is, why wait . . ?

    When I referred to your error in attributing to me a motivation I don't actually possess compounding an earlier error, I was referring to the error in that chain of conversation, specifically when you somehow gathered that my solution of removing unique rewards from the reward track would somehow change ppl's ap . . .

    I never said that removing unique rewards would change ppl's AP that's something you just came up with.

    So you're saying your error was in assuming my reference to 'lost ap' had to do with the actual ap rather than the rewards they unlocked. I am still not sure how you made that error given that my solution only deals with the rewards and not the ap, but I am pleased that you gave me this opportunity to correct your misunderstanding . . .

    I said that since everyone can get all the rewards in the game, the only reason to complain about the missing AP from Season 1 is because someone is obsessed with the number of AP.

    They can't tho . . .

    Plus I was responding to this part:

    But they will never recover the lost ap . . .

    Which has nothing to do with the removal of unique rewards in the first place.

    My entire solution deals only with the unique rewards. The lost ap explains the why of so many players being forever behind in unlocking their unique rewards. I had explained this several times prior to this, and have several times since. I was hoping here that a concise explanation might get through where a detailed explanation did not. Apparently that hope was in vain, but again I appreciate your granting me the opportunity to correct your misunderstanding . . .

    Now you can reread what you didn't understand:

    I believe that your issue isn't with the rewards, since a player that starts now WILL get them, but rather your issue is with the number associated with achievement points that will never be as high as the number that the top player has (provided they keep playing the game). You might be a competitive hardcore achievement hunter and feel entitled to being at the top of the boards, and all the AP you are missing make you feel inferior. In that case I'm really sorry for you and since this "problem" doesn't apply to any kind of significant portion of the player base, while also being an "unhealthy" attitude to begin with, I still consider this a no-problem.

    And clearly see that it's an answer to your complaint about never recovering lost AP, and not about your suggestion about the removal of unique rewards. Which was explained why it's not needed multiple times already.

    And hopefully now it is clear to you how your initial error was compounded by your second. Attributing motivations to someone else is never a good idea. If you want to know, ask, but there's really no advantage in knowing. An idea is sound or not regardless of the motive behind putting it forth . . .

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    I said that since everyone can get all the rewards in the game, the only reason to complain about the missing AP from Season 1 is because someone is obsessed with the number of AP.

    They can't tho . . .

    They can. They main limiting factor here is the addition of new achievements and the time frame in which total available AP grows. Not some past AP which make up less than 5% of available AP.

    One might even argue that having to make old content work and adding ways to gain past achievements is more time consuming than simply adding new content with new achievements. Which in turn directly means that this approach limits players ability to gain AP rewards.

    As mentioned, the main and only reason to add some way to experience Living World Season 1 is story cohesion. Even then, it is highly unlikely that past achievements will be made available again, just as how yearly achievements are not added in retroactively.

  • Gop.8713Gop.8713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    I said that since everyone can get all the rewards in the game, the only reason to complain about the missing AP from Season 1 is because someone is obsessed with the number of AP.

    They can't tho . . .

    They can. They main limiting factor here is the addition of new achievements and the time frame in which total available AP grows. Not some past AP which make up less than 5% of available AP.

    One might even argue that having to make old content work and adding ways to gain past achievements is more time consuming than simply adding new content with new achievements. Which in turn directly means that this approach limits players ability to gain AP rewards.

    As mentioned, the main and only reason to add some way to experience Living World Season 1 is story cohesion. Even then, it is highly unlikely that past achievements will be made available again, just as how yearly achievements are not added in retroactively.

    They can't. If you're relying on new cheeves the best you can argue is that 'they one day may'. That's very different from 'can' . . .

    The rest of your reply makes me feel like you didn't read my last reply to you, which I'm sure isn't really true . . .

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2020

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    I said that since everyone can get all the rewards in the game, the only reason to complain about the missing AP from Season 1 is because someone is obsessed with the number of AP.

    They can't tho . . .

    They can. They main limiting factor here is the addition of new achievements and the time frame in which total available AP grows. Not some past AP which make up less than 5% of available AP.

    One might even argue that having to make old content work and adding ways to gain past achievements is more time consuming than simply adding new content with new achievements. Which in turn directly means that this approach limits players ability to gain AP rewards.

    As mentioned, the main and only reason to add some way to experience Living World Season 1 is story cohesion. Even then, it is highly unlikely that past achievements will be made available again, just as how yearly achievements are not added in retroactively.

    They can't. If you're relying on new cheeves the best you can argue is that 'they one day may'. That's very different from 'can' . . .

    The rest of your reply makes me feel like you didn't read my last reply to you, which I'm sure isn't really true . . .

    Oh it is, you've been arguing in circles for ages by now not accepting other people's arguments. I just occasionally pop in by now not really caring.

    Here's what's going to happen on the issue: nothing, because there is no issue to address from the developers stand point.

  • Gop.8713Gop.8713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Gop.8713 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    I said that since everyone can get all the rewards in the game, the only reason to complain about the missing AP from Season 1 is because someone is obsessed with the number of AP.

    They can't tho . . .

    They can. They main limiting factor here is the addition of new achievements and the time frame in which total available AP grows. Not some past AP which make up less than 5% of available AP.

    One might even argue that having to make old content work and adding ways to gain past achievements is more time consuming than simply adding new content with new achievements. Which in turn directly means that this approach limits players ability to gain AP rewards.

    As mentioned, the main and only reason to add some way to experience Living World Season 1 is story cohesion. Even then, it is highly unlikely that past achievements will be made available again, just as how yearly achievements are not added in retroactively.

    They can't. If you're relying on new cheeves the best you can argue is that 'they one day may'. That's very different from 'can' . . .

    The rest of your reply makes me feel like you didn't read my last reply to you, which I'm sure isn't really true . . .

    Oh it is, you've been arguing in circles for ages by now not accepting other people's arguments. I just occasionally pop in by now not really caring.

    Well what's the point in that? You can find the answer to the concerns you list here in my last reply to you, if you are so inclined . . .

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gop.8713 said:
    Right! What you are saying is that once the amount of ap available (to everyone) exceeds the amount required for all of the unique rewards on the ap track, the problem will be solved. It's my solution exactly.

    First that's not your solution. Second, there is no problem to solve. Exceeding the amount required for all the unique rewards is something that is already happening, as new achievements are added to the game. How do you know the game won't reach 80k achievement points while the current cap for unique rewards is only at 60k? I mean do you have evidence that the game will die before it allows its players to get the last unique reward? If so please share.

    If they never remove unique rewards, the problem will never be solved.

    I'm not sure what you are on about here. The answer is just above. Without removing the unique rewards, the amount of AP that the game provides can exceed the number required to earn the final reward. There is no need to remove the unique rewards as there is no problem.

    So now the question to be asked is when should unique rewards be removed?

    Never is the correct answer. We've already established that all players have access to all the unique rewards so there is no reason to remove them. You are forgetting that the question of removing unique rewards requires the DEATH of the game before enough achievements are added for all players to acquire all the rewards. Since you simply don't know if that will be the case, there is no reason to remove the unique rewards in the first place.

    Again, if you have evidence to suggest that the game is gonna die soon, please share.

    So you're saying your error was in assuming my reference to 'lost ap' had to do with the actual ap rather than the rewards they unlocked. I am still not sure how you made that error given that my solution only deals with the rewards and not the ap, but I am pleased that you gave me this opportunity to correct your misunderstanding . . .

    I made no error. Your reference was about lost AP and since we've established that you can get all the achievement rewards it means your reference is about the LOST AP as a number and that alone. There is no misunderstanding here, only you twisting words, you clearly stated that you care about the missing AP, not about the rewards. I responded to your clear sentence. Missing AP and your "solution" are irrelevant to each other.

    They can't tho . . .

    They can, we've already established that. Don't go back to square one now.

    My entire solution deals only with the unique rewards. The lost ap explains the why of so many players being forever behind in unlocking their unique rewards. I had explained this several times prior to this, and have several times since. I was hoping here that a concise explanation might get through where a detailed explanation did not. Apparently that hope was in vain, but again I appreciate your granting me the opportunity to correct your misunderstanding . . .

    Again, there is no misunderstanding on my part. Your solution isn't required, as we've established that all players have access to all rewards. Then you complained about the lost AP as a completely separate issue, don't try to combine them now. Your solution and your complaint about lacking AP are separate. I responded to your desire to have lost AP back alone because you presented that sentence alone.

    And hopefully now it is clear to you how your initial error was compounded by your second. Attributing motivations to someone else is never a good idea. If you want to know, ask, but there's really no advantage in knowing. An idea is sound or not regardless of the motive behind putting it forth . . .

    Again, there was no initial error. Your motivation in the phrase was clear, you want the missing AP, not the unique rewards. If you think your motivation is any different then use different words. You clearly stated that the players will be missing AP, I responded to that. You misunderstood what you yourself typed.