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PvP based Chronomancer change suggestions

Tayga.3192

By Tayga.3192
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Tayga.3192

Tayga.3192

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@Gryxis.6950 said:

@"Tayga.3192" said:

: There are two suggestions (choose-one) for this trait.1) (My recommendation) Summoned phantasms have 20% more health and spawn with 6 seconds of Retaliation.2) Summoned phantasms spawn with 5 seconds of Protection.

Nooo don't change protected phantasms i need it for my phantasm build :(

It's a bad trait, retal that could come to you would be way better than aegis that might go waste on the phantasm.

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Gryxis.6950

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@Tayga.3192 said:

: There are two suggestions (choose-one) for this trait.1) (My recommendation) Summoned phantasms have 20% more health and spawn with 6 seconds of Retaliation.2) Summoned phantasms spawn with 5 seconds of Protection.

Nooo don't change protected phantasms i need it for my phantasm build :(

It's a bad trait, retal that could come to you would be way better than aegis that might go waste on the phantasm.

It's a bad trait on its own but once you use it with rune of the defender, chronophantasma and persistence of memory it makes a fun build and is of crucial importance

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Tayga.3192

Tayga.3192

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@Gryxis.6950 said:It's a bad trait on its own but once you use it with rune of the defender, chronophantasma and persistence of memory it makes a fun build and is of crucial importance

Rune of the defender? I thought we were in PvP section D:

It's totally useless in pvp but I guess it could be good in other game modes. Maybe it should give a longer aegis so we can get it more reliably with persistence of memory.

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apharma.3741

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@Quadox.7834 said:

@viquing.8254 said:@Tayga.3192 :It's not a surprise but I'm on the side to going more into a no IP spec with other substitute.I like seize the moment suggestion.About core changes, even if there are dead traits in the list, I'm more on @Dadnir.5038 view whe he said :

You don't improve an elite spec by making core profession change. All of those impact the profession as a whole and are potential balance hazard.About retal on phantasm, well, @Pyroatheist.9031 immortal build come back ?They probably should take more look into wells.Mean if it's supposed to be teamfight spec or utility spec : wells should be impact full, shatter should be realiable aoe effects and illusions should not die in one auto as well.

@"bravan.3876" :On a side note, It's lovely how you jump on litteraly EVERY mesmers post while rarely posting on other class.Mean vast majority of your replies are on mesmers asking for more "mind rework" with your usual ego tendency who should improve the ceil of the class.But ofc it's not at all a crusade on mesmer, as you said you want to rework all classes (but only by destroying mesmers.), I'm just paranoid...

@apharma.3741 said:Wait... because you think anything casted twice is beyond busted... chronomancer should be unplayble garbage? (Because they will never give up on it)You know how does it feel? Probably the same if holo forge would had 90s cd, thats how I see chronomancer since its release. Chronomancer always been a core mesmer with this omegastrong Cont.Spit (on a huge cd) without its own unique feature (stolen alacrity and alacrity itself is very week)

It's more that because chrono can double up on anything then anything it can double up on has to be garbage to not make Chrono insanely strong. Remember Phantasm Chrono? All those phantasms were OK without Chrono but because of Chrono phantasma every phantasm it used is poo.

So yes, I'd rather Chrono be unusable if the rest of the class and other elite specs (we know another is coming) can actually have decent utility skills.

Edit: However my preferred choice is to remove the ability to double up and boost alacrity gains for Chrono. This provides CDR without running a foul of doubling up.Chrono Phantasma could give you alacrity for every phantasm you summon.Continuum Split could give you alacrity based on number of clones shattered.

I think I have said it before but you simply overrate continuum split. It is not really much different from having a different form (shroud, rampage, CA), but instead of getting different skills you get to use your regular skills.

It is because contrary to having different form, skills from forms have differents traits synergy than normal skills.Mean if you take a on skills activation skill, it's 2 times more efficient if you double it while with shroud you either take a normal skill activation or a on shroud skill activation.Like @"bravan.3876" explained better than my bad english.So yeah CS should be removed at least for core ulti who are garbage and were balanced with CS in mind.

Let's do a hypothetical. Take core Mesmer and replace distortion with CS, and do not allow CS to reset elites (no other changes). Would you take this over core? If yes, increase cooldown of CS by 10 seconds. Would you still take it over core? Increase cooldown of CS by 10 seconds. And so on. At what point do you think the tradeoff of getting CS but losing distortion would not be worth doing?

Would you take chrono in PvP currently ?Mean taking one of the main reason why chrono is dead will ofc not make me taking it on core. Because no matter how much you can double skills if you die before doing anything.

Now just ask you the question :
  • When is the last time you use time warp or moa on core mes in PvP ? MI is taken by default because it has the lowest CD and sometimes master of manipulation is taken, that's all. Moa and TW were used only when having 90 sec CD thanks to CS.
  • When is the last time you use phantasmal defender and Phantasmal disenchanter on core mes in PvP ? They were nerfed to death thanks to chrono ability to double spam them during the rework chrono hype. While they were barely used in core.

Mean it's no that hard to find skills that are bad in core, currently dead or were balanced for the sake of CS. (SoIn, BD double spam, most on illusions procs traits are other examples.)

So even if in a perfect world they can on the paper find a balanced counter part with ajusting numbers (on CS or stats malus.), they will have to think about it in
every
changes they will make on mesmers : "is that change is right with the current counterpart numbers". Every patch.Which why I say it's hell to balance ad should be removed because as long as they haven't the time and money to do this, we will always end up with plethora of unused things.
  1. Answer the hypothetical.
  2. I just said to assume that CS wouldn't work on elite skills (which is something I advocated for years ago btw).
  3. Time warp has not been nerfed after chrono got added, it has actually been buffed. Same with Mass Invis. The only one that got nerfed was Moa but that was not just because of CS but also because people hated being locked out of their skills for 10 seconds and hated getting instakilled from stealth by the enemy team (used to be a common game open as you recall). Either way, doesn't matter because of point 2.
  4. You
    always
    have to think about how things interact with eachother, which is hard to do for every class, which is why we get broken stuff constantly despite other classes having no CS. Also, almost everything new is added in the form of elite specs in expansiond, which doesn't affect chrono anyway.
  5. First of all BD is not a dead trait, second of all it got nerfed during the reign of mirage (because it was overpowered, it gave essentially perma stability). In fact, you could just as easily stuff that got nerfed to uselessness because of mirage than because of chrono (for example chaotic interruption) which countradicts your point of chrono being especially impossible to balance.

BD stab was gut thanks to last chrono tank perma stab + phantasm spam hype which was op on chrono.You are wrong, BD was used by all chaos IH mirages during the time it was disgustingly op, after it got nerfed everyone swapped to CI which people then realized was also cancer - which then also got
nerfed
removed because of Mirage.Time warp rework were mainly about PvE, you barely see it in PvP and even less if not on chrono 90 sec.Oh of course I know that TW isn't used in PvP (aside from 2012), all I'm saying is that your point of "elites got nerfed cuz of chrono"
only
applies to moa.They nerfed Moa and CS only on the base that Moa is on a 90 sec thanks to CS. Nobody used Moa on 180 CD.No, Moa was used for most of the game's existance before Jaunt (because Jaunt is both very strong and much lower risk). In WTS beijing, cologne, and boston (qualifiers), Mesmers used Moa.There were way more core nerf and rework thanks to chrono than core nerf thanks to mirage.General balance is around how synergy will be created and will it be op or not, not about if a counterpart is enough on doubling skills or not.

If CS didn't work on elite then it's way more easy to balance even if I don't think chrono can be viable with no distortion or other way to sustain as counterpart.CS is still sustain, remember it resets your damage taken. Doesn't protect against CC and such though.But it's more easy to figure keep CS if elite aren't reseted yeah.

This is like trying to teach high school calculus at a brick layers yard.

BD was used by all builds at the same time because it was the better trait until it was nerfed. You don't seem to be capable of understanding that 2 builds can be playable in the same time period on the same class. BD was abused the most on chrono which was being played by everyone and their mum at the time, it literally had perma stab while mirage didn't, it was nerfed because of Chrono.

Timewarp was changed to allow you to get higher uptime on quickness with boon duration investment without over riding it in PvE. However this was all balanced around the idea that chrono would use it in CS (90sCD at the time) in PvE. What you can't seem to understand is that changing skills to be better used on Chrono in CS and leaving them to languish on the rest of the class is essentially a missed opportunity to actually make the skill usable on the rest of the class. I wouldn't call it a nerf when this happens but I certainly would say that CS prevents skills being good on anything but Chrono.

Moa was indeed used before hand however once chrono came everyone was playing chrono and had Moa on a 90s CD, this allowed you to secure kills every 90s more or less because it lasted 10s, so they reduced the duration to 6s. Guess what? Even core stopped using Moa after that because you could not longer secure the kill vs the massive cool down it was and all it's drawbacks, they even changed it so you can't cast behind which wasn't a problem to chrono that used ToT to stun then Moa. It was nerfed around CS, this should be so painfully obvious to anyone that's got any form of analytical capability.

BD, Illu Defense and phantasms were all nerfed on the exact same day (22 May 2018) and it was entirely because of chrono as it used all of these, view sources below:https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bountiful_Disillusionmenthttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Phantasmal_Defenderhttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Phantasmal_Warlockhttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Echo_of_Memoryhttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Phantasmal_Disenchanterhttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Illusionary_Defense

Edit: Just to nip this in the bud, this is also AFTER Chrono Phantasma had been changed to what it is now. This was entirely a Continuum Split problem and everything suffered because of it.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chronophantasma

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mortrialus.3062

mortrialus.3062

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@Tayga.3192 said:Edit: aww you got me

@"mortrialus.3062" said:Sorry, but you're wasting your time. During a TeaTime CMC popped into Twitch chat and mentioned that the main plan for PvP mesmer across the board is for it to be like necromancer minions in that they are a thing you can run if you really want but they're not supposed to good in a way that incentivizes them being widely run like a normal profession like before.So it's like, clones will be optional? This seems okayish if they do it properly (I highly doubt).

The current state of Chronomancer isn't an accident or oversight, it's part of their philosophy. Mesmer and Mirage are on their way there. He also mentioned they are planning on nerfing the duration of Portal Entre down to 15 seconds and the cooldown on Signet of Illusions up to 300 seconds. Both those changes are currently in the pipeline but he wasn't sure when they'd go live.If they are nerfing SoI they sure need to buff Maim the Disillusioned to 3 torment and Restorative Illusions to 2k lmao.I play a build that relies on shatters for sustain and damage, SoI is my strongest utility skill.

No it's more like "With zoo necro and ranger you could nerf the zoo and have the class around it still be good. But you can't get the zoo out of mesmer so it shouldn't be strong enough to see regular usage."

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Gryxis.6950

Gryxis.6950

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@Tayga.3192 said:

@Gryxis.6950 said:It's a bad trait on its own but once you use it with rune of the defender, chronophantasma and persistence of memory it makes a fun build and is of crucial importance

Rune of the defender? I thought we were in PvP section D:

It's totally useless in pvp but I guess it could be good in other game modes. Maybe it should give a longer aegis so we can get it more reliably with persistence of memory.

oh right i mostly wvw but as a roamer, so most wvw posts being about zerg classes i tend to check the pvp forums quite a lot

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Lincolnbeard.1735

Lincolnbeard.1735

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Tayga.3192 said:Edit: aww you got me

@mortrialus.3062 said:Sorry, but you're wasting your time. During a TeaTime CMC popped into Twitch chat and mentioned that the main plan for PvP mesmer across the board is for it to be like necromancer minions in that they are a thing you can run if you really want but they're not supposed to good in a way that incentivizes them being widely run like a normal profession like before.So it's like, clones will be optional? This seems okayish if they do it properly (I highly doubt).

The current state of Chronomancer isn't an accident or oversight, it's part of their philosophy. Mesmer and Mirage are on their way there. He also mentioned they are planning on nerfing the duration of Portal Entre down to 15 seconds and the cooldown on Signet of Illusions up to 300 seconds. Both those changes are currently in the pipeline but he wasn't sure when they'd go live.If they are nerfing SoI they sure need to buff Maim the Disillusioned to 3 torment and Restorative Illusions to 2k lmao.I play a build that relies on shatters for sustain and damage, SoI is my strongest utility skill.

No it's more like "With zoo necro and ranger you could nerf the zoo and have the class around it still be good. But you can't get the zoo out of mesmer so it shouldn't be strong enough to see regular usage."

Way to alienate part of the community based on incompetence. Want to balance this game once and for all? Dish these at players opinions and go get Izzy back.Izzy is the only one with both brains and nuts to balance this shit.

Good thing I started playing GW1 again instead of this pile of shit.

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Quadox.7834

Quadox.7834

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@apharma.3741 said:

@viquing.8254 said:@Tayga.3192 :It's not a surprise but I'm on the side to going more into a no IP spec with other substitute.I like seize the moment suggestion.About core changes, even if there are dead traits in the list, I'm more on @Dadnir.5038 view whe he said :

You don't improve an elite spec by making core profession change. All of those impact the profession as a whole and are potential balance hazard.About retal on phantasm, well, @Pyroatheist.9031 immortal build come back ?They probably should take more look into wells.Mean if it's supposed to be teamfight spec or utility spec : wells should be impact full, shatter should be realiable aoe effects and illusions should not die in one auto as well.

@"bravan.3876" :On a side note, It's lovely how you jump on litteraly EVERY mesmers post while rarely posting on other class.Mean vast majority of your replies are on mesmers asking for more "mind rework" with your usual ego tendency who should improve the ceil of the class.But ofc it's not at all a crusade on mesmer, as you said you want to rework all classes (but only by destroying mesmers.), I'm just paranoid...

@apharma.3741 said:Wait... because you think anything casted twice is beyond busted... chronomancer should be unplayble garbage? (Because they will never give up on it)You know how does it feel? Probably the same if holo forge would had 90s cd, thats how I see chronomancer since its release. Chronomancer always been a core mesmer with this omegastrong Cont.Spit (on a huge cd) without its own unique feature (stolen alacrity and alacrity itself is very week)

It's more that because chrono can double up on anything then anything it can double up on has to be garbage to not make Chrono insanely strong. Remember Phantasm Chrono? All those phantasms were OK without Chrono but because of Chrono phantasma every phantasm it used is poo.

So yes, I'd rather Chrono be unusable if the rest of the class and other elite specs (we know another is coming) can actually have decent utility skills.

Edit: However my preferred choice is to remove the ability to double up and boost alacrity gains for Chrono. This provides CDR without running a foul of doubling up.Chrono Phantasma could give you alacrity for every phantasm you summon.Continuum Split could give you alacrity based on number of clones shattered.

I think I have said it before but you simply overrate continuum split. It is not really much different from having a different form (shroud, rampage, CA), but instead of getting different skills you get to use your regular skills.

It is because contrary to having different form, skills from forms have differents traits synergy than normal skills.Mean if you take a on skills activation skill, it's 2 times more efficient if you double it while with shroud you either take a normal skill activation or a on shroud skill activation.Like @"bravan.3876" explained better than my bad english.So yeah CS should be removed at least for core ulti who are garbage and were balanced with CS in mind.

Let's do a hypothetical. Take core Mesmer and replace distortion with CS, and do not allow CS to reset elites (no other changes). Would you take this over core? If yes, increase cooldown of CS by 10 seconds. Would you still take it over core? Increase cooldown of CS by 10 seconds. And so on. At what point do you think the tradeoff of getting CS but losing distortion would not be worth doing?

Would you take chrono in PvP currently ?Mean taking one of the main reason why chrono is dead will ofc not make me taking it on core. Because no matter how much you can double skills if you die before doing anything.

Now just ask you the question :
  • When is the last time you use time warp or moa on core mes in PvP ? MI is taken by default because it has the lowest CD and sometimes master of manipulation is taken, that's all. Moa and TW were used only when having 90 sec CD thanks to CS.
  • When is the last time you use phantasmal defender and Phantasmal disenchanter on core mes in PvP ? They were nerfed to death thanks to chrono ability to double spam them during the rework chrono hype. While they were barely used in core.

Mean it's no that hard to find skills that are bad in core, currently dead or were balanced for the sake of CS. (SoIn, BD double spam, most on illusions procs traits are other examples.)

So even if in a perfect world they can on the paper find a balanced counter part with ajusting numbers (on CS or stats malus.), they will have to think about it in
every
changes they will make on mesmers : "is that change is right with the current counterpart numbers". Every patch.Which why I say it's hell to balance ad should be removed because as long as they haven't the time and money to do this, we will always end up with plethora of unused things.
  1. Answer the hypothetical.
  2. I just said to assume that CS wouldn't work on elite skills (which is something I advocated for years ago btw).
  3. Time warp has not been nerfed after chrono got added, it has actually been buffed. Same with Mass Invis. The only one that got nerfed was Moa but that was not just because of CS but also because people hated being locked out of their skills for 10 seconds and hated getting instakilled from stealth by the enemy team (used to be a common game open as you recall). Either way, doesn't matter because of point 2.
  4. You
    always
    have to think about how things interact with eachother, which is hard to do for every class, which is why we get broken stuff constantly despite other classes having no CS. Also, almost everything new is added in the form of elite specs in expansiond, which doesn't affect chrono anyway.
  5. First of all BD is not a dead trait, second of all it got nerfed during the reign of mirage (because it was overpowered, it gave essentially perma stability). In fact, you could just as easily stuff that got nerfed to uselessness because of mirage than because of chrono (for example chaotic interruption) which countradicts your point of chrono being especially impossible to balance.

BD stab was gut thanks to last chrono tank perma stab + phantasm spam hype which was op on chrono.You are wrong, BD was used by all chaos IH mirages during the time it was disgustingly op, after it got nerfed everyone swapped to CI which people then realized was also cancer - which then also got
nerfed
removed because of Mirage.Time warp rework were mainly about PvE, you barely see it in PvP and even less if not on chrono 90 sec.Oh of course I know that TW isn't used in PvP (aside from 2012), all I'm saying is that your point of "elites got nerfed cuz of chrono"
only
applies to moa.They nerfed Moa and CS only on the base that Moa is on a 90 sec thanks to CS. Nobody used Moa on 180 CD.No, Moa was used for most of the game's existance before Jaunt (because Jaunt is both very strong and much lower risk). In WTS beijing, cologne, and boston (qualifiers), Mesmers used Moa.There were way more core nerf and rework thanks to chrono than core nerf thanks to mirage.General balance is around how synergy will be created and will it be op or not, not about if a counterpart is enough on doubling skills or not.

If CS didn't work on elite then it's way more easy to balance even if I don't think chrono can be viable with no distortion or other way to sustain as counterpart.CS is still sustain, remember it resets your damage taken. Doesn't protect against CC and such though.But it's more easy to figure keep CS if elite aren't reseted yeah.

This is like trying to teach high school calculus at a brick layers yard.boring and unfunny

BD was used by all builds at the same time because it was the better trait until it was nerfed. You don't seem to be capable of understanding that 2 builds can be playable in the same time period on the same class. BD was abused the most on chrono which was being played by everyone and their mum at the time, it literally had perma stab while mirage didn't, it was nerfed because of Chrono.Nothing I said would indicate that I "don't seem to be capable of understanding that 2 builds can be playable in the same time period". Both chrono bunker 2.0 and chaos mirage were broken, and we are lucky that they nerfed BD because it was completely nuts:
five seconds
stability on every shatter. The trait isn't even ruined, it is still perfectly decent (unlike CI).

Timewarp was changed to allow you to get higher uptime on quickness with boon duration investment without over riding it in PvE. However this was all balanced around the idea that chrono would use it in CS (90sCD at the time) in PvE. What you can't seem to understand is that changing skills to be better used on Chrono in CS and leaving them to languish on the rest of the class is essentially a missed opportunity to actually make the skill usable on the rest of the class. I wouldn't call it a nerf when this happens but I certainly would say that CS prevents skills being good on anything but Chrono.Ah so it was actually buffed because of Chrono? Interesting.

Moa was indeed used before hand however once chrono came everyone was playing chrono and had Moa on a 90s CD, this allowed you to secure kills every 90s more or less because it lasted 10s, so they reduced the duration to 6s. Guess what? Even core stopped using Moa after that because you could not longer secure the kill vs the massive cool down it was and all it's drawbacks, they even changed it so you can't cast behind which wasn't a problem to chrono that used ToT to stun then Moa. It was nerfed around CS, this should be so painfully obvious to anyone that's got any form of analytical capability.Yes, I said in my reply to him specifically that Moa did get nerfed (unlike the other elites), slug. Interestingly I have said for years that it would be completely fine if they made CS not work on elites, you can also find a post from me from just a few months ago (
).

BD, Illu Defense and phantasms were all nerfed on the exact same day (22 May 2018) and it was entirely because of chrono as it used all of these, view sources below:
  1. The phantasm mirage build was also completely disgusting, because phantasms were overpowered after the Feb 2018 rework, which is why they had to be nerfed in the months afterwards. The phantasm rework itself was fairly dumb.
  2. You are right that chronomancer absolutely contributed to these needing a nerf, but specifically CHRONOPHANTASMA, a trait that I have wanted to be deleted since day one - again you can find posts from me about this (ex
    and
    ). Thank you for supporting my thesis that the best way to fix chrono is simply to revert IP and delete chronophantasma - as I have said since the chrono rework/nerf/destruction.

Edit: Just to nip this in the bud, this is also AFTER Chrono Phantasma had been changed to what it is now. This was entirely a Continuum Split problem and everything suffered because of it.
Hilarious, trying to make it seem like phantasms got nerfed because of CS (which was mainly used for grav well anyway) rather than the trait that makes every single phantasm summon twice (making disenchanter remove 12 boons par example). Also, I am happy that the phantasms did get nerfed, because most of them were completely fine after the nerfs - illusionary warlock even got nerfed to summon 1 instead of 2 phants
after
chronobunker had fallen out of favour because it was
still
too much on chaos mirage.
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apharma.3741

apharma.3741

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@Quadox.7834 said:

@viquing.8254 said:@Tayga.3192 :It's not a surprise but I'm on the side to going more into a no IP spec with other substitute.I like seize the moment suggestion.About core changes, even if there are dead traits in the list, I'm more on @Dadnir.5038 view whe he said :

You don't improve an elite spec by making core profession change. All of those impact the profession as a whole and are potential balance hazard.About retal on phantasm, well, @Pyroatheist.9031 immortal build come back ?They probably should take more look into wells.Mean if it's supposed to be teamfight spec or utility spec : wells should be impact full, shatter should be realiable aoe effects and illusions should not die in one auto as well.

@"bravan.3876" :On a side note, It's lovely how you jump on litteraly EVERY mesmers post while rarely posting on other class.Mean vast majority of your replies are on mesmers asking for more "mind rework" with your usual ego tendency who should improve the ceil of the class.But ofc it's not at all a crusade on mesmer, as you said you want to rework all classes (but only by destroying mesmers.), I'm just paranoid...

@apharma.3741 said:Wait... because you think anything casted twice is beyond busted... chronomancer should be unplayble garbage? (Because they will never give up on it)You know how does it feel? Probably the same if holo forge would had 90s cd, thats how I see chronomancer since its release. Chronomancer always been a core mesmer with this omegastrong Cont.Spit (on a huge cd) without its own unique feature (stolen alacrity and alacrity itself is very week)

It's more that because chrono can double up on anything then anything it can double up on has to be garbage to not make Chrono insanely strong. Remember Phantasm Chrono? All those phantasms were OK without Chrono but because of Chrono phantasma every phantasm it used is poo.

So yes, I'd rather Chrono be unusable if the rest of the class and other elite specs (we know another is coming) can actually have decent utility skills.

Edit: However my preferred choice is to remove the ability to double up and boost alacrity gains for Chrono. This provides CDR without running a foul of doubling up.Chrono Phantasma could give you alacrity for every phantasm you summon.Continuum Split could give you alacrity based on number of clones shattered.

I think I have said it before but you simply overrate continuum split. It is not really much different from having a different form (shroud, rampage, CA), but instead of getting different skills you get to use your regular skills.

It is because contrary to having different form, skills from forms have differents traits synergy than normal skills.Mean if you take a on skills activation skill, it's 2 times more efficient if you double it while with shroud you either take a normal skill activation or a on shroud skill activation.Like @"bravan.3876" explained better than my bad english.So yeah CS should be removed at least for core ulti who are garbage and were balanced with CS in mind.

Let's do a hypothetical. Take core Mesmer and replace distortion with CS, and do not allow CS to reset elites (no other changes). Would you take this over core? If yes, increase cooldown of CS by 10 seconds. Would you still take it over core? Increase cooldown of CS by 10 seconds. And so on. At what point do you think the tradeoff of getting CS but losing distortion would not be worth doing?

Would you take chrono in PvP currently ?Mean taking one of the main reason why chrono is dead will ofc not make me taking it on core. Because no matter how much you can double skills if you die before doing anything.

Now just ask you the question :
  • When is the last time you use time warp or moa on core mes in PvP ? MI is taken by default because it has the lowest CD and sometimes master of manipulation is taken, that's all. Moa and TW were used only when having 90 sec CD thanks to CS.
  • When is the last time you use phantasmal defender and Phantasmal disenchanter on core mes in PvP ? They were nerfed to death thanks to chrono ability to double spam them during the rework chrono hype. While they were barely used in core.

Mean it's no that hard to find skills that are bad in core, currently dead or were balanced for the sake of CS. (SoIn, BD double spam, most on illusions procs traits are other examples.)

So even if in a perfect world they can on the paper find a balanced counter part with ajusting numbers (on CS or stats malus.), they will have to think about it in
every
changes they will make on mesmers : "is that change is right with the current counterpart numbers". Every patch.Which why I say it's hell to balance ad should be removed because as long as they haven't the time and money to do this, we will always end up with plethora of unused things.
  1. Answer the hypothetical.
  2. I just said to assume that CS wouldn't work on elite skills (which is something I advocated for years ago btw).
  3. Time warp has not been nerfed after chrono got added, it has actually been buffed. Same with Mass Invis. The only one that got nerfed was Moa but that was not just because of CS but also because people hated being locked out of their skills for 10 seconds and hated getting instakilled from stealth by the enemy team (used to be a common game open as you recall). Either way, doesn't matter because of point 2.
  4. You
    always
    have to think about how things interact with eachother, which is hard to do for every class, which is why we get broken stuff constantly despite other classes having no CS. Also, almost everything new is added in the form of elite specs in expansiond, which doesn't affect chrono anyway.
  5. First of all BD is not a dead trait, second of all it got nerfed during the reign of mirage (because it was overpowered, it gave essentially perma stability). In fact, you could just as easily stuff that got nerfed to uselessness because of mirage than because of chrono (for example chaotic interruption) which countradicts your point of chrono being especially impossible to balance.

BD stab was gut thanks to last chrono tank perma stab + phantasm spam hype which was op on chrono.You are wrong, BD was used by all chaos IH mirages during the time it was disgustingly op, after it got nerfed everyone swapped to CI which people then realized was also cancer - which then also got
nerfed
removed because of Mirage.Time warp rework were mainly about PvE, you barely see it in PvP and even less if not on chrono 90 sec.Oh of course I know that TW isn't used in PvP (aside from 2012), all I'm saying is that your point of "elites got nerfed cuz of chrono"
only
applies to moa.They nerfed Moa and CS only on the base that Moa is on a 90 sec thanks to CS. Nobody used Moa on 180 CD.No, Moa was used for most of the game's existance before Jaunt (because Jaunt is both very strong and much lower risk). In WTS beijing, cologne, and boston (qualifiers), Mesmers used Moa.There were way more core nerf and rework thanks to chrono than core nerf thanks to mirage.General balance is around how synergy will be created and will it be op or not, not about if a counterpart is enough on doubling skills or not.

If CS didn't work on elite then it's way more easy to balance even if I don't think chrono can be viable with no distortion or other way to sustain as counterpart.CS is still sustain, remember it resets your damage taken. Doesn't protect against CC and such though.But it's more easy to figure keep CS if elite aren't reseted yeah.

This is like trying to teach high school calculus at a brick layers yard.boring and unfunny

BD was used by all builds at the same time because it was the better trait until it was nerfed. You don't seem to be capable of understanding that 2 builds can be playable in the same time period on the same class. BD was abused the most on chrono which was being played by everyone and their mum at the time, it literally had perma stab while mirage didn't, it was nerfed because of Chrono.Nothing I said would indicate that I "don't seem to be capable of understanding that 2 builds can be playable in the same time period". Both chrono bunker 2.0 and chaos mirage were broken, and we are lucky that they nerfed BD because it was completely nuts:
five seconds
stability on every shatter. The trait isn't even ruined, it is still perfectly decent (unlike CI).

Timewarp was changed to allow you to get higher uptime on quickness with boon duration investment without over riding it in PvE. However this was all balanced around the idea that chrono would use it in CS (90sCD at the time) in PvE. What you can't seem to understand is that changing skills to be better used on Chrono in CS and leaving them to languish on the rest of the class is essentially a missed opportunity to actually make the skill usable on the rest of the class. I wouldn't call it a nerf when this happens but I certainly would say that CS prevents skills being good on anything but Chrono.Ah so it was actually buffed because of Chrono? Interesting.

Moa was indeed used before hand however once chrono came everyone was playing chrono and had Moa on a 90s CD, this allowed you to secure kills every 90s more or less because it lasted 10s, so they reduced the duration to 6s. Guess what? Even core stopped using Moa after that because you could not longer secure the kill vs the massive cool down it was and all it's drawbacks, they even changed it so you can't cast behind which wasn't a problem to chrono that used ToT to stun then Moa. It was nerfed around CS, this should be so painfully obvious to anyone that's got any form of analytical capability.Yes, I said in my reply to him specifically that Moa did get nerfed (unlike the other elites), slug. Interestingly I have said for years that it would be completely fine if they made CS not work on elites, you can also find a post from me from just a few months ago (
).

BD, Illu Defense and phantasms were all nerfed on the exact same day (22 May 2018) and it was entirely because of chrono as it used all of these, view sources below:
  1. The phantasm mirage build was also completely disgusting, because phantasms were overpowered after the Feb 2018 rework, which is why they had to be nerfed in the months afterwards. The phantasm rework itself was fairly dumb.
  2. You are right that chronomancer absolutely contributed to these needing a nerf, but specifically CHRONOPHANTASMA, a trait that I have wanted to be deleted since day one - again you can find posts from me about this (ex
    and
    ). Thank you for supporting my thesis that the best way to fix chrono is simply to revert IP and delete chronophantasma - as I have said since the chrono rework/nerf/destruction.

Edit: Just to nip this in the bud, this is also AFTER Chrono Phantasma had been changed to what it is now. This was entirely a Continuum Split problem and everything suffered because of it.
Hilarious, trying to make it seem like phantasms got nerfed because of CS (which was mainly used for grav well anyway) rather than the trait that makes every single phantasm summon twice (making disenchanter remove 12 boons par example). Also, I am happy that the phantasms did get nerfed, because most of them were completely fine after the nerfs - illusionary warlock even got nerfed to summon 1 instead of 2 phants
after
chronobunker had fallen out of favour because it was
still
too much on chaos mirage.

Wasn't meant to be funny, was meant to convey how painful it is explaining something basic to someone who can't or won't understand.

"Bunker Chrono 2.0" and mirage were broken for different reasons, mirage didn't use either phantasm so not sure why you think mirage contributed to them being nerfed and BD was taken to give decent stab uptime as Elusive Mind had just received exhaustion. Also it was 3s of Stability at the time, you need boon duration to get 5s which "Bunker Chrono 2.0" took while mirage invested into condition damage and/or movement speed usually.

Timewarp wasn't buffed though, they adjusted it so that Chrono and only Chrono didn't overwrite quickness as much, it changed nothing for every other use case for every other class, some might even call it a nerf to other classes as it made cleanses more effective against the slow effect. I wouldn't call it a buff or a nerf.

Phantasms weren't as overpowered as you claim, defender was and needed a damage reduction, Warlock? Nope, Disenchanter? Maybe a slight toning down but was OK as a single use because of the 1s cast time. Echo of memory didn't do very much damage for the state of the game back then and hardly deserved the 50% reduction treatment. Literally every single thing was not a problem on any other mesmer build because they couldn't double up on everything while being immune to CC and have perma prot.

If Phantasms were nerfed because of Chrono Phantasma, then they wouldd have nerfed Chrono Phantasma to begin with, OH they did that and it changed nothing. Why did it change nothing? It was a CS and Chrono Phantasma problem. Instead of removing both they nerfed everything else for what is the 4th time trying to explain this basic concept.

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@apharma.3741 said:

@viquing.8254 said:@Tayga.3192 :It's not a surprise but I'm on the side to going more into a no IP spec with other substitute.I like seize the moment suggestion.About core changes, even if there are dead traits in the list, I'm more on @Dadnir.5038 view whe he said :

You don't improve an elite spec by making core profession change. All of those impact the profession as a whole and are potential balance hazard.About retal on phantasm, well, @Pyroatheist.9031 immortal build come back ?They probably should take more look into wells.Mean if it's supposed to be teamfight spec or utility spec : wells should be impact full, shatter should be realiable aoe effects and illusions should not die in one auto as well.

@"bravan.3876" :On a side note, It's lovely how you jump on litteraly EVERY mesmers post while rarely posting on other class.Mean vast majority of your replies are on mesmers asking for more "mind rework" with your usual ego tendency who should improve the ceil of the class.But ofc it's not at all a crusade on mesmer, as you said you want to rework all classes (but only by destroying mesmers.), I'm just paranoid...

@apharma.3741 said:Wait... because you think anything casted twice is beyond busted... chronomancer should be unplayble garbage? (Because they will never give up on it)You know how does it feel? Probably the same if holo forge would had 90s cd, thats how I see chronomancer since its release. Chronomancer always been a core mesmer with this omegastrong Cont.Spit (on a huge cd) without its own unique feature (stolen alacrity and alacrity itself is very week)

It's more that because chrono can double up on anything then anything it can double up on has to be garbage to not make Chrono insanely strong. Remember Phantasm Chrono? All those phantasms were OK without Chrono but because of Chrono phantasma every phantasm it used is poo.

So yes, I'd rather Chrono be unusable if the rest of the class and other elite specs (we know another is coming) can actually have decent utility skills.

Edit: However my preferred choice is to remove the ability to double up and boost alacrity gains for Chrono. This provides CDR without running a foul of doubling up.Chrono Phantasma could give you alacrity for every phantasm you summon.Continuum Split could give you alacrity based on number of clones shattered.

I think I have said it before but you simply overrate continuum split. It is not really much different from having a different form (shroud, rampage, CA), but instead of getting different skills you get to use your regular skills.

It is because contrary to having different form, skills from forms have differents traits synergy than normal skills.Mean if you take a on skills activation skill, it's 2 times more efficient if you double it while with shroud you either take a normal skill activation or a on shroud skill activation.Like @"bravan.3876" explained better than my bad english.So yeah CS should be removed at least for core ulti who are garbage and were balanced with CS in mind.

Let's do a hypothetical. Take core Mesmer and replace distortion with CS, and do not allow CS to reset elites (no other changes). Would you take this over core? If yes, increase cooldown of CS by 10 seconds. Would you still take it over core? Increase cooldown of CS by 10 seconds. And so on. At what point do you think the tradeoff of getting CS but losing distortion would not be worth doing?

Would you take chrono in PvP currently ?Mean taking one of the main reason why chrono is dead will ofc not make me taking it on core. Because no matter how much you can double skills if you die before doing anything.

Now just ask you the question :
  • When is the last time you use time warp or moa on core mes in PvP ? MI is taken by default because it has the lowest CD and sometimes master of manipulation is taken, that's all. Moa and TW were used only when having 90 sec CD thanks to CS.
  • When is the last time you use phantasmal defender and Phantasmal disenchanter on core mes in PvP ? They were nerfed to death thanks to chrono ability to double spam them during the rework chrono hype. While they were barely used in core.

Mean it's no that hard to find skills that are bad in core, currently dead or were balanced for the sake of CS. (SoIn, BD double spam, most on illusions procs traits are other examples.)

So even if in a perfect world they can on the paper find a balanced counter part with ajusting numbers (on CS or stats malus.), they will have to think about it in
every
changes they will make on mesmers : "is that change is right with the current counterpart numbers". Every patch.Which why I say it's hell to balance ad should be removed because as long as they haven't the time and money to do this, we will always end up with plethora of unused things.
  1. Answer the hypothetical.
  2. I just said to assume that CS wouldn't work on elite skills (which is something I advocated for years ago btw).
  3. Time warp has not been nerfed after chrono got added, it has actually been buffed. Same with Mass Invis. The only one that got nerfed was Moa but that was not just because of CS but also because people hated being locked out of their skills for 10 seconds and hated getting instakilled from stealth by the enemy team (used to be a common game open as you recall). Either way, doesn't matter because of point 2.
  4. You
    always
    have to think about how things interact with eachother, which is hard to do for every class, which is why we get broken stuff constantly despite other classes having no CS. Also, almost everything new is added in the form of elite specs in expansiond, which doesn't affect chrono anyway.
  5. First of all BD is not a dead trait, second of all it got nerfed during the reign of mirage (because it was overpowered, it gave essentially perma stability). In fact, you could just as easily stuff that got nerfed to uselessness because of mirage than because of chrono (for example chaotic interruption) which countradicts your point of chrono being especially impossible to balance.

BD stab was gut thanks to last chrono tank perma stab + phantasm spam hype which was op on chrono.You are wrong, BD was used by all chaos IH mirages during the time it was disgustingly op, after it got nerfed everyone swapped to CI which people then realized was also cancer - which then also got
nerfed
removed because of Mirage.Time warp rework were mainly about PvE, you barely see it in PvP and even less if not on chrono 90 sec.Oh of course I know that TW isn't used in PvP (aside from 2012), all I'm saying is that your point of "elites got nerfed cuz of chrono"
only
applies to moa.They nerfed Moa and CS only on the base that Moa is on a 90 sec thanks to CS. Nobody used Moa on 180 CD.No, Moa was used for most of the game's existance before Jaunt (because Jaunt is both very strong and much lower risk). In WTS beijing, cologne, and boston (qualifiers), Mesmers used Moa.There were way more core nerf and rework thanks to chrono than core nerf thanks to mirage.General balance is around how synergy will be created and will it be op or not, not about if a counterpart is enough on doubling skills or not.

If CS didn't work on elite then it's way more easy to balance even if I don't think chrono can be viable with no distortion or other way to sustain as counterpart.CS is still sustain, remember it resets your damage taken. Doesn't protect against CC and such though.But it's more easy to figure keep CS if elite aren't reseted yeah.

This is like trying to teach high school calculus at a brick layers yard.boring and unfunny

BD was used by all builds at the same time because it was the better trait until it was nerfed. You don't seem to be capable of understanding that 2 builds can be playable in the same time period on the same class. BD was abused the most on chrono which was being played by everyone and their mum at the time, it literally had perma stab while mirage didn't, it was nerfed because of Chrono.Nothing I said would indicate that I "don't seem to be capable of understanding that 2 builds can be playable in the same time period". Both chrono bunker 2.0 and chaos mirage were broken, and we are lucky that they nerfed BD because it was completely nuts:
five seconds
stability on every shatter. The trait isn't even ruined, it is still perfectly decent (unlike CI).

Timewarp was changed to allow you to get higher uptime on quickness with boon duration investment without over riding it in PvE. However this was all balanced around the idea that chrono would use it in CS (90sCD at the time) in PvE. What you can't seem to understand is that changing skills to be better used on Chrono in CS and leaving them to languish on the rest of the class is essentially a missed opportunity to actually make the skill usable on the rest of the class. I wouldn't call it a nerf when this happens but I certainly would say that CS prevents skills being good on anything but Chrono.Ah so it was actually buffed because of Chrono? Interesting.

Moa was indeed used before hand however once chrono came everyone was playing chrono and had Moa on a 90s CD, this allowed you to secure kills every 90s more or less because it lasted 10s, so they reduced the duration to 6s. Guess what? Even core stopped using Moa after that because you could not longer secure the kill vs the massive cool down it was and all it's drawbacks, they even changed it so you can't cast behind which wasn't a problem to chrono that used ToT to stun then Moa. It was nerfed around CS, this should be so painfully obvious to anyone that's got any form of analytical capability.Yes, I said in my reply to him specifically that Moa did get nerfed (unlike the other elites), slug. Interestingly I have said for years that it would be completely fine if they made CS not work on elites, you can also find a post from me from just a few months ago (
).

BD, Illu Defense and phantasms were all nerfed on the exact same day (22 May 2018) and it was entirely because of chrono as it used all of these, view sources below:
  1. The phantasm mirage build was also completely disgusting, because phantasms were overpowered after the Feb 2018 rework, which is why they had to be nerfed in the months afterwards. The phantasm rework itself was fairly dumb.
  2. You are right that chronomancer absolutely contributed to these needing a nerf, but specifically CHRONOPHANTASMA, a trait that I have wanted to be deleted since day one - again you can find posts from me about this (ex
    and
    ). Thank you for supporting my thesis that the best way to fix chrono is simply to revert IP and delete chronophantasma - as I have said since the chrono rework/nerf/destruction.

Edit: Just to nip this in the bud, this is also AFTER Chrono Phantasma had been changed to what it is now. This was entirely a Continuum Split problem and everything suffered because of it.
Hilarious, trying to make it seem like phantasms got nerfed because of CS (which was mainly used for grav well anyway) rather than the trait that makes every single phantasm summon twice (making disenchanter remove 12 boons par example). Also, I am happy that the phantasms did get nerfed, because most of them were completely fine after the nerfs - illusionary warlock even got nerfed to summon 1 instead of 2 phants
after
chronobunker had fallen out of favour because it was
still
too much on chaos mirage.

Wasn't meant to be funny, was meant to convey how painful it is explaining something basic to someone who can't or won't understand.

"Bunker Chrono 2.0" and mirage were broken for different reasons, mirage didn't use either phantasm so not sure why you think mirage contributed to them being nerfed and BD was taken to give decent stab uptime as Elusive Mind had just received exhaustion. Also it was 3s of Stability at the time, you need boon duration to get 5s which "Bunker Chrono 2.0" took while mirage invested into condition damage and/or movement speed usually.

Timewarp wasn't buffed though, they adjusted it so that Chrono and only Chrono didn't overwrite quickness as much, it changed nothing for every other use case for every other class, some might even call it a nerf to other classes as it made cleanses more effective against the slow effect. I wouldn't call it a buff or a nerf.

Phantasms weren't as overpowered as you claim, defender was and needed a damage reduction, Warlock? Nope, Disenchanter? Maybe a slight toning down but was OK as a single use because of the 1s cast time. Echo of memory didn't do very much damage for the state of the game back then and hardly deserved the 50% reduction treatment. Literally every single thing was not a problem on any other mesmer build because they couldn't double up on everything while being immune to CC and have perma prot.

If Phantasms were nerfed because of Chrono Phantasma, then they wouldd have nerfed Chrono Phantasma to begin with, OH they did that and it changed nothing. Why did it change nothing? It was a CS
and
Chrono Phantasma problem. Instead of removing both they nerfed everything else for what is the 4th time trying to explain this basic concept.

@viquing.8254 said:@Tayga.3192 :It's not a surprise but I'm on the side to going more into a no IP spec with other substitute.I like seize the moment suggestion.About core changes, even if there are dead traits in the list, I'm more on @Dadnir.5038 view whe he said :

You don't improve an elite spec by making core profession change. All of those impact the profession as a whole and are potential balance hazard.About retal on phantasm, well, @Pyroatheist.9031 immortal build come back ?They probably should take more look into wells.Mean if it's supposed to be teamfight spec or utility spec : wells should be impact full, shatter should be realiable aoe effects and illusions should not die in one auto as well.

@"bravan.3876" :On a side note, It's lovely how you jump on litteraly EVERY mesmers post while rarely posting on other class.Mean vast majority of your replies are on mesmers asking for more "mind rework" with your usual ego tendency who should improve the ceil of the class.But ofc it's not at all a crusade on mesmer, as you said you want to rework all classes (but only by destroying mesmers.), I'm just paranoid...

@apharma.3741 said:Wait... because you think anything casted twice is beyond busted... chronomancer should be unplayble garbage? (Because they will never give up on it)You know how does it feel? Probably the same if holo forge would had 90s cd, thats how I see chronomancer since its release. Chronomancer always been a core mesmer with this omegastrong Cont.Spit (on a huge cd) without its own unique feature (stolen alacrity and alacrity itself is very week)

It's more that because chrono can double up on anything then anything it can double up on has to be garbage to not make Chrono insanely strong. Remember Phantasm Chrono? All those phantasms were OK without Chrono but because of Chrono phantasma every phantasm it used is poo.

So yes, I'd rather Chrono be unusable if the rest of the class and other elite specs (we know another is coming) can actually have decent utility skills.

Edit: However my preferred choice is to remove the ability to double up and boost alacrity gains for Chrono. This provides CDR without running a foul of doubling up.Chrono Phantasma could give you alacrity for every phantasm you summon.Continuum Split could give you alacrity based on number of clones shattered.

I think I have said it before but you simply overrate continuum split. It is not really much different from having a different form (shroud, rampage, CA), but instead of getting different skills you get to use your regular skills.

It is because contrary to having different form, skills from forms have differents traits synergy than normal skills.Mean if you take a on skills activation skill, it's 2 times more efficient if you double it while with shroud you either take a normal skill activation or a on shroud skill activation.Like @"bravan.3876" explained better than my bad english.So yeah CS should be removed at least for core ulti who are garbage and were balanced with CS in mind.

Let's do a hypothetical. Take core Mesmer and replace distortion with CS, and do not allow CS to reset elites (no other changes). Would you take this over core? If yes, increase cooldown of CS by 10 seconds. Would you still take it over core? Increase cooldown of CS by 10 seconds. And so on. At what point do you think the tradeoff of getting CS but losing distortion would not be worth doing?

Would you take chrono in PvP currently ?Mean taking one of the main reason why chrono is dead will ofc not make me taking it on core. Because no matter how much you can double skills if you die before doing anything.

Now just ask you the question :
  • When is the last time you use time warp or moa on core mes in PvP ? MI is taken by default because it has the lowest CD and sometimes master of manipulation is taken, that's all. Moa and TW were used only when having 90 sec CD thanks to CS.
  • When is the last time you use phantasmal defender and Phantasmal disenchanter on core mes in PvP ? They were nerfed to death thanks to chrono ability to double spam them during the rework chrono hype. While they were barely used in core.

Mean it's no that hard to find skills that are bad in core, currently dead or were balanced for the sake of CS. (SoIn, BD double spam, most on illusions procs traits are other examples.)

So even if in a perfect world they can on the paper find a balanced counter part with ajusting numbers (on CS or stats malus.), they will have to think about it in
every
changes they will make on mesmers : "is that change is right with the current counterpart numbers". Every patch.Which why I say it's hell to balance ad should be removed because as long as they haven't the time and money to do this, we will always end up with plethora of unused things.
  1. Answer the hypothetical.
  2. I just said to assume that CS wouldn't work on elite skills (which is something I advocated for years ago btw).
  3. Time warp has not been nerfed after chrono got added, it has actually been buffed. Same with Mass Invis. The only one that got nerfed was Moa but that was not just because of CS but also because people hated being locked out of their skills for 10 seconds and hated getting instakilled from stealth by the enemy team (used to be a common game open as you recall). Either way, doesn't matter because of point 2.
  4. You
    always
    have to think about how things interact with eachother, which is hard to do for every class, which is why we get broken stuff constantly despite other classes having no CS. Also, almost everything new is added in the form of elite specs in expansiond, which doesn't affect chrono anyway.
  5. First of all BD is not a dead trait, second of all it got nerfed during the reign of mirage (because it was overpowered, it gave essentially perma stability). In fact, you could just as easily stuff that got nerfed to uselessness because of mirage than because of chrono (for example chaotic interruption) which countradicts your point of chrono being especially impossible to balance.

BD stab was gut thanks to last chrono tank perma stab + phantasm spam hype which was op on chrono.You are wrong, BD was used by all chaos IH mirages during the time it was disgustingly op, after it got nerfed everyone swapped to CI which people then realized was also cancer - which then also got
nerfed
removed because of Mirage.Time warp rework were mainly about PvE, you barely see it in PvP and even less if not on chrono 90 sec.Oh of course I know that TW isn't used in PvP (aside from 2012), all I'm saying is that your point of "elites got nerfed cuz of chrono"
only
applies to moa.They nerfed Moa and CS only on the base that Moa is on a 90 sec thanks to CS. Nobody used Moa on 180 CD.No, Moa was used for most of the game's existance before Jaunt (because Jaunt is both very strong and much lower risk). In WTS beijing, cologne, and boston (qualifiers), Mesmers used Moa.There were way more core nerf and rework thanks to chrono than core nerf thanks to mirage.General balance is around how synergy will be created and will it be op or not, not about if a counterpart is enough on doubling skills or not.

If CS didn't work on elite then it's way more easy to balance even if I don't think chrono can be viable with no distortion or other way to sustain as counterpart.CS is still sustain, remember it resets your damage taken. Doesn't protect against CC and such though.But it's more easy to figure keep CS if elite aren't reseted yeah.

This is like trying to teach high school calculus at a brick layers yard.boring and unfunny

BD was used by all builds at the same time because it was the better trait until it was nerfed. You don't seem to be capable of understanding that 2 builds can be playable in the same time period on the same class. BD was abused the most on chrono which was being played by everyone and their mum at the time, it literally had perma stab while mirage didn't, it was nerfed because of Chrono.Nothing I said would indicate that I "don't seem to be capable of understanding that 2 builds can be playable in the same time period". Both chrono bunker 2.0 and chaos mirage were broken, and we are lucky that they nerfed BD because it was completely nuts:
five seconds
stability on every shatter. The trait isn't even ruined, it is still perfectly decent (unlike CI).

Timewarp was changed to allow you to get higher uptime on quickness with boon duration investment without over riding it in PvE. However this was all balanced around the idea that chrono would use it in CS (90sCD at the time) in PvE. What you can't seem to understand is that changing skills to be better used on Chrono in CS and leaving them to languish on the rest of the class is essentially a missed opportunity to actually make the skill usable on the rest of the class. I wouldn't call it a nerf when this happens but I certainly would say that CS prevents skills being good on anything but Chrono.Ah so it was actually buffed because of Chrono? Interesting.

Moa was indeed used before hand however once chrono came everyone was playing chrono and had Moa on a 90s CD, this allowed you to secure kills every 90s more or less because it lasted 10s, so they reduced the duration to 6s. Guess what? Even core stopped using Moa after that because you could not longer secure the kill vs the massive cool down it was and all it's drawbacks, they even changed it so you can't cast behind which wasn't a problem to chrono that used ToT to stun then Moa. It was nerfed around CS, this should be so painfully obvious to anyone that's got any form of analytical capability.Yes, I said in my reply to him specifically that Moa did get nerfed (unlike the other elites), slug. Interestingly I have said for years that it would be completely fine if they made CS not work on elites, you can also find a post from me from just a few months ago (
).

BD, Illu Defense and phantasms were all nerfed on the exact same day (22 May 2018) and it was entirely because of chrono as it used all of these, view sources below:
  1. The phantasm mirage build was also completely disgusting, because phantasms were overpowered after the Feb 2018 rework, which is why they had to be nerfed in the months afterwards. The phantasm rework itself was fairly dumb.
  2. You are right that chronomancer absolutely contributed to these needing a nerf, but specifically CHRONOPHANTASMA, a trait that I have wanted to be deleted since day one - again you can find posts from me about this (ex
    and
    ). Thank you for supporting my thesis that the best way to fix chrono is simply to revert IP and delete chronophantasma - as I have said since the chrono rework/nerf/destruction.

Edit: Just to nip this in the bud, this is also AFTER Chrono Phantasma had been changed to what it is now. This was entirely a Continuum Split problem and everything suffered because of it.
Hilarious, trying to make it seem like phantasms got nerfed because of CS (which was mainly used for grav well anyway) rather than the trait that makes every single phantasm summon twice (making disenchanter remove 12 boons par example). Also, I am happy that the phantasms did get nerfed, because most of them were completely fine after the nerfs - illusionary warlock even got nerfed to summon 1 instead of 2 phants
after
chronobunker had fallen out of favour because it was
still
too much on chaos mirage.

Wasn't meant to be funny, was meant to convey how painful it is explaining something basic to someone who can't or won't understand.I changed my mind it was super funny & hilarious

"Bunker Chrono 2.0" and mirage were broken for different reasons, mirage didn't use either phantasm so not sure why you think mirage contributed to them being nerfed and BD was taken to give decent stab uptime as Elusive Mind had just received exhaustion. Also it was 3s of Stability at the time, you need boon duration to get 5s which "Bunker Chrono 2.0" took while mirage invested into condition damage and/or movement speed usually.Yeah it was 5 then 3.

Timewarp wasn't buffed though, they adjusted it so that Chrono and only Chrono didn't overwrite quickness as much, it changed nothing for every other use case for every other class, some might even call it a nerf to other classes as it made cleanses more effective against the slow effect. I wouldn't call it a buff or a nerf.Yeah

Phantasms weren't as overpowered as you claim, defender was and needed a damage reduction, Warlock? Nope, Disenchanter? Maybe a slight toning down but was OK as a single use because of the 1s cast time. Echo of memory didn't do very much damage for the state of the game back then and hardly deserved the 50% reduction treatment. Literally every single thing was not a problem on any other mesmer build because they couldn't double up on everything while being immune to CC and have perma prot.They absolutely were. There is a reason phantasmal swordsman had to get nerfed despite not being used for bunker chrono, because also phantasm mirage was broken (not just bunkerchrono and condimirage). Echo of memory isn't really relevant since it is only available on chrono which means it can't get nerfed "because" of chrono.

If Phantasms were nerfed because of Chrono Phantasma, then they wouldd have nerfed Chrono Phantasma to begin with, OH they did that and it changed nothing. Why did it change nothing? It was a CS
and
Chrono Phantasma problem. Instead of removing both they nerfed everything else for what is the 4th time trying to explain this basic concept.

They should have removed the trait as I and others told them to, adding a daze and a dmg nerf is a terrible bandaid (non-)fix. One of the problems with chrono bunker 2.0 was the insane visual noise, which was mainly because of the phantasm rework combined with chronophantasma (because no longer would phantasms get shattered away). The daze on CP doesn't really make this better, it just means they stay and clutter the screen even longer.

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Quadox.7834

Quadox.7834

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@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:Phantasms post-rework were all and still are trash. Exceptions being utility phantasms that were good for a period of time and berserker.I dunno where this phantasms were buffed on rework that I see plenty of times come from. They were nerfed not buffed.

First of all that isn't true, second of all it doesn't matter anyhow because the main difference was the rework of the mechanics and not the numbers. Anyhow, to me personally the rework wasn't a very good idea for pvp.

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Lincolnbeard.1735

Lincolnbeard.1735

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@Quadox.7834 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:Phantasms post-rework were all and still are trash. Exceptions being utility phantasms that were good for a period of time and berserker.I dunno where this phantasms were buffed on rework that I see plenty of times come from. They were nerfed not buffed.

First of all that isn't true, second of all it doesn't matter anyhow because the main difference was the rework of the mechanics and not the numbers. Anyhow, to me personally the rework wasn't a very good idea for pvp.

It is true. Swordsman was one the hardest hitting phantasms on game, after the rework it doesn't even hit.Staff was another hard hitter, after it tickles.Torch was meh now it doesn't hit.Focus hit hard and fast if you timed your pull now it takes forever to land, it does projectiles and if you have more than one target the damage is beyond pitiful.

The rework was to cater pve players, it was shit to pvp, slower play and shatter time.

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apharma.3741

apharma.3741

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@Quadox.7834 said:

@viquing.8254 said:@Tayga.3192 :It's not a surprise but I'm on the side to going more into a no IP spec with other substitute.I like seize the moment suggestion.About core changes, even if there are dead traits in the list, I'm more on @Dadnir.5038 view whe he said :

You don't improve an elite spec by making core profession change. All of those impact the profession as a whole and are potential balance hazard.About retal on phantasm, well, @Pyroatheist.9031 immortal build come back ?They probably should take more look into wells.Mean if it's supposed to be teamfight spec or utility spec : wells should be impact full, shatter should be realiable aoe effects and illusions should not die in one auto as well.

@"bravan.3876" :On a side note, It's lovely how you jump on litteraly EVERY mesmers post while rarely posting on other class.Mean vast majority of your replies are on mesmers asking for more "mind rework" with your usual ego tendency who should improve the ceil of the class.But ofc it's not at all a crusade on mesmer, as you said you want to rework all classes (but only by destroying mesmers.), I'm just paranoid...

@apharma.3741 said:Wait... because you think anything casted twice is beyond busted... chronomancer should be unplayble garbage? (Because they will never give up on it)You know how does it feel? Probably the same if holo forge would had 90s cd, thats how I see chronomancer since its release. Chronomancer always been a core mesmer with this omegastrong Cont.Spit (on a huge cd) without its own unique feature (stolen alacrity and alacrity itself is very week)

It's more that because chrono can double up on anything then anything it can double up on has to be garbage to not make Chrono insanely strong. Remember Phantasm Chrono? All those phantasms were OK without Chrono but because of Chrono phantasma every phantasm it used is poo.

So yes, I'd rather Chrono be unusable if the rest of the class and other elite specs (we know another is coming) can actually have decent utility skills.

Edit: However my preferred choice is to remove the ability to double up and boost alacrity gains for Chrono. This provides CDR without running a foul of doubling up.Chrono Phantasma could give you alacrity for every phantasm you summon.Continuum Split could give you alacrity based on number of clones shattered.

I think I have said it before but you simply overrate continuum split. It is not really much different from having a different form (shroud, rampage, CA), but instead of getting different skills you get to use your regular skills.

It is because contrary to having different form, skills from forms have differents traits synergy than normal skills.Mean if you take a on skills activation skill, it's 2 times more efficient if you double it while with shroud you either take a normal skill activation or a on shroud skill activation.Like @"bravan.3876" explained better than my bad english.So yeah CS should be removed at least for core ulti who are garbage and were balanced with CS in mind.

Let's do a hypothetical. Take core Mesmer and replace distortion with CS, and do not allow CS to reset elites (no other changes). Would you take this over core? If yes, increase cooldown of CS by 10 seconds. Would you still take it over core? Increase cooldown of CS by 10 seconds. And so on. At what point do you think the tradeoff of getting CS but losing distortion would not be worth doing?

Would you take chrono in PvP currently ?Mean taking one of the main reason why chrono is dead will ofc not make me taking it on core. Because no matter how much you can double skills if you die before doing anything.

Now just ask you the question :
  • When is the last time you use time warp or moa on core mes in PvP ? MI is taken by default because it has the lowest CD and sometimes master of manipulation is taken, that's all. Moa and TW were used only when having 90 sec CD thanks to CS.
  • When is the last time you use phantasmal defender and Phantasmal disenchanter on core mes in PvP ? They were nerfed to death thanks to chrono ability to double spam them during the rework chrono hype. While they were barely used in core.

Mean it's no that hard to find skills that are bad in core, currently dead or were balanced for the sake of CS. (SoIn, BD double spam, most on illusions procs traits are other examples.)

So even if in a perfect world they can on the paper find a balanced counter part with ajusting numbers (on CS or stats malus.), they will have to think about it in
every
changes they will make on mesmers : "is that change is right with the current counterpart numbers". Every patch.Which why I say it's hell to balance ad should be removed because as long as they haven't the time and money to do this, we will always end up with plethora of unused things.
  1. Answer the hypothetical.
  2. I just said to assume that CS wouldn't work on elite skills (which is something I advocated for years ago btw).
  3. Time warp has not been nerfed after chrono got added, it has actually been buffed. Same with Mass Invis. The only one that got nerfed was Moa but that was not just because of CS but also because people hated being locked out of their skills for 10 seconds and hated getting instakilled from stealth by the enemy team (used to be a common game open as you recall). Either way, doesn't matter because of point 2.
  4. You
    always
    have to think about how things interact with eachother, which is hard to do for every class, which is why we get broken stuff constantly despite other classes having no CS. Also, almost everything new is added in the form of elite specs in expansiond, which doesn't affect chrono anyway.
  5. First of all BD is not a dead trait, second of all it got nerfed during the reign of mirage (because it was overpowered, it gave essentially perma stability). In fact, you could just as easily stuff that got nerfed to uselessness because of mirage than because of chrono (for example chaotic interruption) which countradicts your point of chrono being especially impossible to balance.

BD stab was gut thanks to last chrono tank perma stab + phantasm spam hype which was op on chrono.You are wrong, BD was used by all chaos IH mirages during the time it was disgustingly op, after it got nerfed everyone swapped to CI which people then realized was also cancer - which then also got
nerfed
removed because of Mirage.Time warp rework were mainly about PvE, you barely see it in PvP and even less if not on chrono 90 sec.Oh of course I know that TW isn't used in PvP (aside from 2012), all I'm saying is that your point of "elites got nerfed cuz of chrono"
only
applies to moa.They nerfed Moa and CS only on the base that Moa is on a 90 sec thanks to CS. Nobody used Moa on 180 CD.No, Moa was used for most of the game's existance before Jaunt (because Jaunt is both very strong and much lower risk). In WTS beijing, cologne, and boston (qualifiers), Mesmers used Moa.There were way more core nerf and rework thanks to chrono than core nerf thanks to mirage.General balance is around how synergy will be created and will it be op or not, not about if a counterpart is enough on doubling skills or not.

If CS didn't work on elite then it's way more easy to balance even if I don't think chrono can be viable with no distortion or other way to sustain as counterpart.CS is still sustain, remember it resets your damage taken. Doesn't protect against CC and such though.But it's more easy to figure keep CS if elite aren't reseted yeah.

This is like trying to teach high school calculus at a brick layers yard.boring and unfunny

BD was used by all builds at the same time because it was the better trait until it was nerfed. You don't seem to be capable of understanding that 2 builds can be playable in the same time period on the same class. BD was abused the most on chrono which was being played by everyone and their mum at the time, it literally had perma stab while mirage didn't, it was nerfed because of Chrono.Nothing I said would indicate that I "don't seem to be capable of understanding that 2 builds can be playable in the same time period". Both chrono bunker 2.0 and chaos mirage were broken, and we are lucky that they nerfed BD because it was completely nuts:
five seconds
stability on every shatter. The trait isn't even ruined, it is still perfectly decent (unlike CI).

Timewarp was changed to allow you to get higher uptime on quickness with boon duration investment without over riding it in PvE. However this was all balanced around the idea that chrono would use it in CS (90sCD at the time) in PvE. What you can't seem to understand is that changing skills to be better used on Chrono in CS and leaving them to languish on the rest of the class is essentially a missed opportunity to actually make the skill usable on the rest of the class. I wouldn't call it a nerf when this happens but I certainly would say that CS prevents skills being good on anything but Chrono.Ah so it was actually buffed because of Chrono? Interesting.

Moa was indeed used before hand however once chrono came everyone was playing chrono and had Moa on a 90s CD, this allowed you to secure kills every 90s more or less because it lasted 10s, so they reduced the duration to 6s. Guess what? Even core stopped using Moa after that because you could not longer secure the kill vs the massive cool down it was and all it's drawbacks, they even changed it so you can't cast behind which wasn't a problem to chrono that used ToT to stun then Moa. It was nerfed around CS, this should be so painfully obvious to anyone that's got any form of analytical capability.Yes, I said in my reply to him specifically that Moa did get nerfed (unlike the other elites), slug. Interestingly I have said for years that it would be completely fine if they made CS not work on elites, you can also find a post from me from just a few months ago (
).

BD, Illu Defense and phantasms were all nerfed on the exact same day (22 May 2018) and it was entirely because of chrono as it used all of these, view sources below:
  1. The phantasm mirage build was also completely disgusting, because phantasms were overpowered after the Feb 2018 rework, which is why they had to be nerfed in the months afterwards. The phantasm rework itself was fairly dumb.
  2. You are right that chronomancer absolutely contributed to these needing a nerf, but specifically CHRONOPHANTASMA, a trait that I have wanted to be deleted since day one - again you can find posts from me about this (ex
    and
    ). Thank you for supporting my thesis that the best way to fix chrono is simply to revert IP and delete chronophantasma - as I have said since the chrono rework/nerf/destruction.

Edit: Just to nip this in the bud, this is also AFTER Chrono Phantasma had been changed to what it is now. This was entirely a Continuum Split problem and everything suffered because of it.
Hilarious, trying to make it seem like phantasms got nerfed because of CS (which was mainly used for grav well anyway) rather than the trait that makes every single phantasm summon twice (making disenchanter remove 12 boons par example). Also, I am happy that the phantasms did get nerfed, because most of them were completely fine after the nerfs - illusionary warlock even got nerfed to summon 1 instead of 2 phants
after
chronobunker had fallen out of favour because it was
still
too much on chaos mirage.

Wasn't meant to be funny, was meant to convey how painful it is explaining something basic to someone who can't or won't understand.

"Bunker Chrono 2.0" and mirage were broken for different reasons, mirage didn't use either phantasm so not sure why you think mirage contributed to them being nerfed and BD was taken to give decent stab uptime as Elusive Mind had just received exhaustion. Also it was 3s of Stability at the time, you need boon duration to get 5s which "Bunker Chrono 2.0" took while mirage invested into condition damage and/or movement speed usually.

Timewarp wasn't buffed though, they adjusted it so that Chrono and only Chrono didn't overwrite quickness as much, it changed nothing for every other use case for every other class, some might even call it a nerf to other classes as it made cleanses more effective against the slow effect. I wouldn't call it a buff or a nerf.

Phantasms weren't as overpowered as you claim, defender was and needed a damage reduction, Warlock? Nope, Disenchanter? Maybe a slight toning down but was OK as a single use because of the 1s cast time. Echo of memory didn't do very much damage for the state of the game back then and hardly deserved the 50% reduction treatment. Literally every single thing was not a problem on any other mesmer build because they couldn't double up on everything while being immune to CC and have perma prot.

If Phantasms were nerfed because of Chrono Phantasma, then they wouldd have nerfed Chrono Phantasma to begin with, OH they did that and it changed nothing. Why did it change nothing? It was a CS
and
Chrono Phantasma problem. Instead of removing both they nerfed everything else for what is the 4th time trying to explain this basic concept.

@viquing.8254 said:@Tayga.3192 :It's not a surprise but I'm on the side to going more into a no IP spec with other substitute.I like seize the moment suggestion.About core changes, even if there are dead traits in the list, I'm more on @Dadnir.5038 view whe he said :

You don't improve an elite spec by making core profession change. All of those impact the profession as a whole and are potential balance hazard.About retal on phantasm, well, @Pyroatheist.9031 immortal build come back ?They probably should take more look into wells.Mean if it's supposed to be teamfight spec or utility spec : wells should be impact full, shatter should be realiable aoe effects and illusions should not die in one auto as well.

@"bravan.3876" :On a side note, It's lovely how you jump on litteraly EVERY mesmers post while rarely posting on other class.Mean vast majority of your replies are on mesmers asking for more "mind rework" with your usual ego tendency who should improve the ceil of the class.But ofc it's not at all a crusade on mesmer, as you said you want to rework all classes (but only by destroying mesmers.), I'm just paranoid...

@apharma.3741 said:Wait... because you think anything casted twice is beyond busted... chronomancer should be unplayble garbage? (Because they will never give up on it)You know how does it feel? Probably the same if holo forge would had 90s cd, thats how I see chronomancer since its release. Chronomancer always been a core mesmer with this omegastrong Cont.Spit (on a huge cd) without its own unique feature (stolen alacrity and alacrity itself is very week)

It's more that because chrono can double up on anything then anything it can double up on has to be garbage to not make Chrono insanely strong. Remember Phantasm Chrono? All those phantasms were OK without Chrono but because of Chrono phantasma every phantasm it used is poo.

So yes, I'd rather Chrono be unusable if the rest of the class and other elite specs (we know another is coming) can actually have decent utility skills.

Edit: However my preferred choice is to remove the ability to double up and boost alacrity gains for Chrono. This provides CDR without running a foul of doubling up.Chrono Phantasma could give you alacrity for every phantasm you summon.Continuum Split could give you alacrity based on number of clones shattered.

I think I have said it before but you simply overrate continuum split. It is not really much different from having a different form (shroud, rampage, CA), but instead of getting different skills you get to use your regular skills.

It is because contrary to having different form, skills from forms have differents traits synergy than normal skills.Mean if you take a on skills activation skill, it's 2 times more efficient if you double it while with shroud you either take a normal skill activation or a on shroud skill activation.Like @"bravan.3876" explained better than my bad english.So yeah CS should be removed at least for core ulti who are garbage and were balanced with CS in mind.

Let's do a hypothetical. Take core Mesmer and replace distortion with CS, and do not allow CS to reset elites (no other changes). Would you take this over core? If yes, increase cooldown of CS by 10 seconds. Would you still take it over core? Increase cooldown of CS by 10 seconds. And so on. At what point do you think the tradeoff of getting CS but losing distortion would not be worth doing?

Would you take chrono in PvP currently ?Mean taking one of the main reason why chrono is dead will ofc not make me taking it on core. Because no matter how much you can double skills if you die before doing anything.

Now just ask you the question :
  • When is the last time you use time warp or moa on core mes in PvP ? MI is taken by default because it has the lowest CD and sometimes master of manipulation is taken, that's all. Moa and TW were used only when having 90 sec CD thanks to CS.
  • When is the last time you use phantasmal defender and Phantasmal disenchanter on core mes in PvP ? They were nerfed to death thanks to chrono ability to double spam them during the rework chrono hype. While they were barely used in core.

Mean it's no that hard to find skills that are bad in core, currently dead or were balanced for the sake of CS. (SoIn, BD double spam, most on illusions procs traits are other examples.)

So even if in a perfect world they can on the paper find a balanced counter part with ajusting numbers (on CS or stats malus.), they will have to think about it in
every
changes they will make on mesmers : "is that change is right with the current counterpart numbers". Every patch.Which why I say it's hell to balance ad should be removed because as long as they haven't the time and money to do this, we will always end up with plethora of unused things.
  1. Answer the hypothetical.
  2. I just said to assume that CS wouldn't work on elite skills (which is something I advocated for years ago btw).
  3. Time warp has not been nerfed after chrono got added, it has actually been buffed. Same with Mass Invis. The only one that got nerfed was Moa but that was not just because of CS but also because people hated being locked out of their skills for 10 seconds and hated getting instakilled from stealth by the enemy team (used to be a common game open as you recall). Either way, doesn't matter because of point 2.
  4. You
    always
    have to think about how things interact with eachother, which is hard to do for every class, which is why we get broken stuff constantly despite other classes having no CS. Also, almost everything new is added in the form of elite specs in expansiond, which doesn't affect chrono anyway.
  5. First of all BD is not a dead trait, second of all it got nerfed during the reign of mirage (because it was overpowered, it gave essentially perma stability). In fact, you could just as easily stuff that got nerfed to uselessness because of mirage than because of chrono (for example chaotic interruption) which countradicts your point of chrono being especially impossible to balance.

BD stab was gut thanks to last chrono tank perma stab + phantasm spam hype which was op on chrono.You are wrong, BD was used by all chaos IH mirages during the time it was disgustingly op, after it got nerfed everyone swapped to CI which people then realized was also cancer - which then also got
nerfed
removed because of Mirage.Time warp rework were mainly about PvE, you barely see it in PvP and even less if not on chrono 90 sec.Oh of course I know that TW isn't used in PvP (aside from 2012), all I'm saying is that your point of "elites got nerfed cuz of chrono"
only
applies to moa.They nerfed Moa and CS only on the base that Moa is on a 90 sec thanks to CS. Nobody used Moa on 180 CD.No, Moa was used for most of the game's existance before Jaunt (because Jaunt is both very strong and much lower risk). In WTS beijing, cologne, and boston (qualifiers), Mesmers used Moa.There were way more core nerf and rework thanks to chrono than core nerf thanks to mirage.General balance is around how synergy will be created and will it be op or not, not about if a counterpart is enough on doubling skills or not.

If CS didn't work on elite then it's way more easy to balance even if I don't think chrono can be viable with no distortion or other way to sustain as counterpart.CS is still sustain, remember it resets your damage taken. Doesn't protect against CC and such though.But it's more easy to figure keep CS if elite aren't reseted yeah.

This is like trying to teach high school calculus at a brick layers yard.boring and unfunny

BD was used by all builds at the same time because it was the better trait until it was nerfed. You don't seem to be capable of understanding that 2 builds can be playable in the same time period on the same class. BD was abused the most on chrono which was being played by everyone and their mum at the time, it literally had perma stab while mirage didn't, it was nerfed because of Chrono.Nothing I said would indicate that I "don't seem to be capable of understanding that 2 builds can be playable in the same time period". Both chrono bunker 2.0 and chaos mirage were broken, and we are lucky that they nerfed BD because it was completely nuts:
five seconds
stability on every shatter. The trait isn't even ruined, it is still perfectly decent (unlike CI).

Timewarp was changed to allow you to get higher uptime on quickness with boon duration investment without over riding it in PvE. However this was all balanced around the idea that chrono would use it in CS (90sCD at the time) in PvE. What you can't seem to understand is that changing skills to be better used on Chrono in CS and leaving them to languish on the rest of the class is essentially a missed opportunity to actually make the skill usable on the rest of the class. I wouldn't call it a nerf when this happens but I certainly would say that CS prevents skills being good on anything but Chrono.Ah so it was actually buffed because of Chrono? Interesting.

Moa was indeed used before hand however once chrono came everyone was playing chrono and had Moa on a 90s CD, this allowed you to secure kills every 90s more or less because it lasted 10s, so they reduced the duration to 6s. Guess what? Even core stopped using Moa after that because you could not longer secure the kill vs the massive cool down it was and all it's drawbacks, they even changed it so you can't cast behind which wasn't a problem to chrono that used ToT to stun then Moa. It was nerfed around CS, this should be so painfully obvious to anyone that's got any form of analytical capability.Yes, I said in my reply to him specifically that Moa did get nerfed (unlike the other elites), slug. Interestingly I have said for years that it would be completely fine if they made CS not work on elites, you can also find a post from me from just a few months ago (
).

BD, Illu Defense and phantasms were all nerfed on the exact same day (22 May 2018) and it was entirely because of chrono as it used all of these, view sources below:
  1. The phantasm mirage build was also completely disgusting, because phantasms were overpowered after the Feb 2018 rework, which is why they had to be nerfed in the months afterwards. The phantasm rework itself was fairly dumb.
  2. You are right that chronomancer absolutely contributed to these needing a nerf, but specifically CHRONOPHANTASMA, a trait that I have wanted to be deleted since day one - again you can find posts from me about this (ex
    and
    ). Thank you for supporting my thesis that the best way to fix chrono is simply to revert IP and delete chronophantasma - as I have said since the chrono rework/nerf/destruction.

Edit: Just to nip this in the bud, this is also AFTER Chrono Phantasma had been changed to what it is now. This was entirely a Continuum Split problem and everything suffered because of it.
Hilarious, trying to make it seem like phantasms got nerfed because of CS (which was mainly used for grav well anyway) rather than the trait that makes every single phantasm summon twice (making disenchanter remove 12 boons par example). Also, I am happy that the phantasms did get nerfed, because most of them were completely fine after the nerfs - illusionary warlock even got nerfed to summon 1 instead of 2 phants
after
chronobunker had fallen out of favour because it was
still
too much on chaos mirage.

Wasn't meant to be funny, was meant to convey how painful it is explaining something basic to someone who can't or won't understand.I changed my mind it was super funny & hilarious

"Bunker Chrono 2.0" and mirage were broken for different reasons, mirage didn't use either phantasm so not sure why you think mirage contributed to them being nerfed and BD was taken to give decent stab uptime as Elusive Mind had just received exhaustion. Also it was 3s of Stability at the time, you need boon duration to get 5s which "Bunker Chrono 2.0" took while mirage invested into condition damage and/or movement speed usually.Yeah it was 5 then 3.

Timewarp wasn't buffed though, they adjusted it so that Chrono and only Chrono didn't overwrite quickness as much, it changed nothing for every other use case for every other class, some might even call it a nerf to other classes as it made cleanses more effective against the slow effect. I wouldn't call it a buff or a nerf.Yeah

Phantasms weren't as overpowered as you claim, defender was and needed a damage reduction, Warlock? Nope, Disenchanter? Maybe a slight toning down but was OK as a single use because of the 1s cast time. Echo of memory didn't do very much damage for the state of the game back then and hardly deserved the 50% reduction treatment. Literally every single thing was not a problem on any other mesmer build because they couldn't double up on everything while being immune to CC and have perma prot.They absolutely were. There is a reason phantasmal swordsman had to get nerfed despite not being used for bunker chrono, because also phantasm mirage was broken (not just bunkerchrono and condimirage). Echo of memory isn't really relevant since it is only available on chrono which means it can't get nerfed "because" of chrono.

If Phantasms were nerfed because of Chrono Phantasma, then they wouldd have nerfed Chrono Phantasma to begin with, OH they did that and it changed nothing. Why did it change nothing? It was a CS
and
Chrono Phantasma problem. Instead of removing both they nerfed everything else for what is the 4th time trying to explain this basic concept.

They should have removed the trait as I and others told them to, adding a daze and a dmg nerf is a terrible bandaid (non-)fix. One of the problems with chrono bunker 2.0 was the insane visual noise, which was mainly because of the phantasm rework combined with chronophantasma (because no longer would phantasms get shattered away). The daze on CP doesn't really make this better, it just means they stay and clutter the screen even longer.

Chronophantasma has always dazed, it was talked about by Robert Gee in the beta, this is why it's painful to discuss things with you, you don't seem to know that it's always dazed. Phantasmal Swordsman wasn't really used in the meta condi mirage, it was an off meta pick for power mirage and used for power core mesmer but it was chrono that really made it busted getting almost perma 25 might. Swordsman (which I never brought up) was a Chrono Phantasma issue but the rest of the problems were a Continuum Split issue allowing you to stack boons to a level that they became perma as they didn't run out before you stacked them again through CS.

How many skills and traits need to be nerfed for Chrono's sake that you'll finally admit maybe CS is breaking the game?

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