WvW classes and their roles in zergs

[Zape.2094]

@Bhima.9518 said:

@Zape.2094 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Caedmon.6798 said:When it comes to thief,typically no. Even on my DE vs a properly stacked up blob my shots will be 99% blocked/reflected/destroyed,the one hit that does land will be instantly healed. But,on thief you can go for stragglers,and usually theres some able to be picked off. They are far from wanted because everyone does everything else better in blob fights,except getting those stragglers because of your high mobility,able to stealth finish and lock em down with immob spamms.IMO thief has a problem for zerg flanking - by design for the thief to be effective, it needs to be glassy. But if its glassy, its very weak to getting targetted. So while it does bring the damage, it has a tendancy to not be able to follow through.

But then again how effective this is often depends more on how good the commander is at herding the kittens than it does on the skill of the thief.

So which class would you suggest for such actions?

Im thinking ranger cause of the 1500+ longbow range, but it kinda lacks AoE (except for longbow 5, which makes you a sitting duck), or perhaps an Elementalist with a staff (1200range and good AoE)? Any ideas? Id really like to give zerg busting a go ^.^

Btw Caed, Ive heard of you busting people out on your deadeye, hope to see you ingame some time!! :)

The answer you are looking for is core guardian power build. It can spike as well as a staff weaver but its WAAAYYY easier to pull off, the cooldowns aren't as punishing, you have 2 invulns, and utility that actually helps your team: ALL AT THE SAME TIME. You give up a bit of range because it relies not just on staff but on scepter, but its 100% worth it. I was playing staff weaver in WvW zergs for awhile and just on a whim switched to power core guard. It feels like a cheat code.

Do you go full Berserker with it, or should I go more Marauder and healthy stats aswell?

[God.2708]

@Zape.2094 said:

@Bhima.9518 said:

@Zape.2094 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@"Caedmon.6798" said:When it comes to thief,typically no. Even on my DE vs a properly stacked up blob my shots will be 99% blocked/reflected/destroyed,the one hit that does land will be instantly healed. But,on thief you can go for stragglers,and usually theres some able to be picked off. They are far from wanted because everyone does everything else better in blob fights,except getting those stragglers because of your high mobility,able to stealth finish and lock em down with immob spamms.IMO thief has a problem for zerg flanking - by design for the thief to be effective, it needs to be glassy. But if its glassy, its very weak to getting targetted. So while it does bring the damage, it has a tendancy to not be able to follow through.

But then again how effective this is often depends more on how good the commander is at herding the kittens than it does on the skill of the thief.

So which class would you suggest for such actions?

Im thinking ranger cause of the 1500+ longbow range, but it kinda lacks AoE (except for longbow 5, which makes you a sitting duck), or perhaps an Elementalist with a staff (1200range and good AoE)? Any ideas? Id really like to give zerg busting a go ^.^

Btw Caed, Ive heard of you busting people out on your deadeye, hope to see you ingame some time!! :)

The answer you are looking for is core guardian power build. It can spike as well as a staff weaver but its WAAAYYY easier to pull off, the cooldowns aren't as punishing, you have 2 invulns, and utility that actually helps your team: ALL AT THE SAME TIME. You give up a bit of range because it relies not just on staff but on scepter, but its 100% worth it. I was playing staff weaver in WvW zergs for awhile and just on a whim switched to power core guard. It feels like a cheat code.

Do you go full Berserker with it, or should I go more Marauder and healthy stats aswell?

https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Guardian_-_Power_Guardian

[RisenHowl.2419]

What's important with clouding is that you have mobility, strong self heals or invuln, and a way to stack 25 self might (generally a trait or cheesecake).

[Zape.2094]

@RisenHowl.2419 said:What's important with clouding is that you have mobility, strong self heals or invuln, and a way to stack 25 self might (generally a trait or cheesecake).

So probably weaver and dragonhunter would be the best bet here I assume? Revenant has a bit of it, but feels a bit too clunky in terms of being very predictable and having no real mobility. If you get focused you're gonna get stomped. Whereas a weaver could technically mist form / blink out, and the guardian could just pop his shitton of invulnerabilities if it gets that far and run out safe and sound. Do Rangers have any proper disengage? I never played them much but I didnt think they had that much mobility. Sure, they have immob, but you cant count on that to work vs a zerg (stability, multi enemies, etc...)..... How do rangers get out of trouble other than sitting at 1500+ range (and greatsword leap)?

[Naxos.2503]

@Zape.2094 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:What's important with clouding is that you have mobility, strong self heals or invuln, and a way to stack 25 self might (generally a trait or cheesecake).

So probably weaver and dragonhunter would be the best bet here I assume? Revenant has a bit of it, but feels a bit too clunky in terms of being very predictable and having no real mobility. If you get focused you're gonna get stomped. Whereas a weaver could technically mist form / blink out, and the guardian could just pop his kitten of invulnerabilities if it gets that far and run out safe and sound. Do Rangers have any proper disengage? I never played them much but I didnt think they had that much mobility. Sure, they have immob, but you cant count on that to work vs a zerg (stability, multi enemies, etc...)..... How do rangers get out of trouble other than sitting at 1500+ range (and greatsword leap)?

For revenant, you can get around the mobility bit using staff 3 and staff 5. Staff 3 will let you run to safety for a bit and as far as I can tell is a block that cant be interrupted. Staff 5 is more fiddly in WvW. You can use it to knock a melee opponent down as you move out, but little else, and it is Much shorter and less impactful in WvW. They still work decently for mobility if you use them in combination. Combine it with staff 4 if you get rooted to cleanse it, and you can generally have a fair amount of mobility. On the other hand, that means dedicating one of your weapon slots to said weapon. It's not a total loss though. Staff has many uses both out and in a group. That includes using staff 3 to block incoming projectiles toward other sideliners, for example, or an area condi cleanse if you face scourges. Cooldown is kind of long though.

I generally combine that with hammer. Power hammer revenant deals some Delicious Crunchy Damage. Hammer 2 for group damage, Hammer 5 and 3 for the zerg engagements. Hammer 4 to shield fellow sideliners from projectiles. I like to combine that with a Renegade build to give other sideliners some boons, as well as using the ghost summons to intercept damage, and generally discourage a potential counterattack. Few people ever CC the ghost, even the one that constantly CC in an area. The real kicker is the Citadel Bombardment skill. It Looks like it'd be better used for condi, but the truth is, that skill has a very long range, a very wide area, and it can pack a nasty punch even for a Power build. On a glassy build, using that, along with hammer 2 and 3 is enough to down a full group of 5 (damn you target restrictions !).In general, I'd say that class is far less selfish than the weaver build. You have potential for teamplay which weaver does not, and it's still just as deadly.

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@kamikharzeeh.8016 said:for both sides of the coin.So what, there is a good side of the coin and a bad side of the coin now?

the sides of the coin are: 1) the zerg is under constant guerilla attacks, which is not usually effective, but annoying 2) the guerilla factions lacks likely numbers to form a zerg themselves due to a rather big number of clowning happening.

now, if those 15 ppl just would use proper stuff and not thief/ranger, you'd have the half of a zerg ready yet. therefore i'd say it is a loss-loss situation.

also from my experience, outside of ganking single targets, rev-scrouge-guard-warri-ele are more effective on disruption and decimating enemy zergs than thief rangers are.

@"Naxos.2503" usually staff has lost usage. yeah it has defense and mobility options, but it lost all damage sadly, most ppl just run dualsword on their herald. rev generally lost so many big damage options, shows how unbalanced the "balance" we got is. it somehow reads as if u play renegade... not recommended, herald is just so much better. renegade is a roamerclass, for any group over 10 ppl it immensely less effective.

weaver surely is fun as pug (outside of zerg groupsupport), made one yesterday and surely not bad. u can however sidebomb as rev as well, just u need to be a bit more cautious. with dwarf roads u get stability up, and have the option to switch fast to herald for quickheals and superspeed for disengage etcout of zergs i would mainly focus on playing dmg-scrapper, weaver, scrouge or herald. (guardian offense maybe, but i really never did that. guardian shines in wvw as firebrand_healbrand, and only works against rookies really great in the offensemodes imo)

and funny enough CCs are more annoying than ever before. the ping-pong happening is wore than ever. (or than any time i remember, which is last 3 years~)

[ArchonWing.9480]

@Zape.2094 said:Do Rangers have any proper disengage? I never played them much but I didnt think they had that much mobility. Sure, they have immob, but you cant count on that to work vs a zerg (stability, multi enemies, etc...)..... How do rangers get out of trouble other than sitting at 1500+ range (and greatsword leap)?

Bird gives you another leap; with Dolyak Stance giving you temp immunity to immob (and unlike boons can't be removed) you should be able to get out of anything unless you get bombed point blank on your own.

[Bhima.9518]

@Zape.2094 said:

@Bhima.9518 said:

@Zape.2094 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Caedmon.6798 said:When it comes to thief,typically no. Even on my DE vs a properly stacked up blob my shots will be 99% blocked/reflected/destroyed,the one hit that does land will be instantly healed. But,on thief you can go for stragglers,and usually theres some able to be picked off. They are far from wanted because everyone does everything else better in blob fights,except getting those stragglers because of your high mobility,able to stealth finish and lock em down with immob spamms.IMO thief has a problem for zerg flanking - by design for the thief to be effective, it needs to be glassy. But if its glassy, its very weak to getting targetted. So while it does bring the damage, it has a tendancy to not be able to follow through.

But then again how effective this is often depends more on how good the commander is at herding the kittens than it does on the skill of the thief.

So which class would you suggest for such actions?

Im thinking ranger cause of the 1500+ longbow range, but it kinda lacks AoE (except for longbow 5, which makes you a sitting duck), or perhaps an Elementalist with a staff (1200range and good AoE)? Any ideas? Id really like to give zerg busting a go ^.^

Btw Caed, Ive heard of you busting people out on your deadeye, hope to see you ingame some time!! :)

The answer you are looking for is core guardian power build. It can spike as well as a staff weaver but its WAAAYYY easier to pull off, the cooldowns aren't as punishing, you have 2 invulns, and utility that actually helps your team: ALL AT THE SAME TIME. You give up a bit of range because it relies not just on staff but on scepter, but its 100% worth it. I was playing staff weaver in WvW zergs for awhile and just on a whim switched to power core guard. It feels like a cheat code.

Do you go full Berserker with it, or should I go more Marauder and healthy stats aswell?

I don't only because I don't have the gear for it currently as ascended and I'm a bit lazy. But yes, you can run full zerker with this due to the two invulns and just get used to proper positioning. Mara is fine though if you don't want to be that alert.