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Soulbeast Needs Some Genuine Nerf Bat Love in the Next Balance Update


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@"Solori.6025"

  1. Yeah because unlike the one-shot soulbeast build, you can't just walk away from the power Mirage to avoid the entire burst. Worldly Impact is stationary and Rapid Fire can be completely avoided by walking behind LoS. On the other hand, the Mirage has instant cast mantras combined with a greatsword shatter combo that can one-shot from stealth up to 2250 range away.
  2. Don't group condi Mirage together with power Mirage. As I stated in one of my previous posts, nearly every single skill on S/P A/T condi needs to be avoided or you're going to take an incredible amount of damage/get CC'd. Not to mention that you can't even punish a Mirage with well-timed CCs because they can just dodge after getting hit by one (lol). Making a comparison between Mirage and the meme Sic Em + OWP Soulbeast is a joke considering there are very high level power shatter players that can compete at the top level with builds like that.Why? ...Because Mirage has a way more reliable, frequent burst while having more team utility/mobility/survivability than SE OWP Soulbeast. Good players will still get insta-gibbed by Mirage, but they can easily counter a longbow ranger.
  3. Funnily enough, Mirage is still very strong. It might not be S+ tier like it used to be, but it's definitely still viable and a carry class in the right hands.
  4. There's been a power mesmer player on the team that has won nearly every single MAT on NA. They wouldn't have used it for monthlies if it didn't work/wasn't effective against top players in an organized environment. So you're claim that "they weren't represented in the top percentiles of the meta" is false. Again, unlike mesmer, there really ISN'T any representation for rangers at the top end asides from maybe one or two ranger players in the top 25 (same as mesmer). The SE OWP SLB build is NEVER used in competitive because any competent player can completely shut down the longbow's burst without using any defensive cooldowns.
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@shadowpass.4236 said:@"Solori.6025"

  1. Yeah because unlike the one-shot soulbeast build, you can't just walk away from the power Mirage to avoid the entire burst. Worldly Impact is stationary and Rapid Fire can be completely avoided by walking behind LoS. On the other hand, the Mirage has instant cast mantras combined with a greatsword shatter combo that can one-shot from stealth up to 2250 range away.

Both classes have the ability to oneshot from stealth ( though for ranger it is a variation of the a GS build) Secondly it's not 2250 more like 1200 at best all of which requires melee range.Unless you are saying that people used the ranged shatter combo.And the response and counters to that would be the same things you see in this thread by ranger mains.

  1. Don't group condi Mirage together with power Mirage. As I stated in one of my previous posts, nearly every single skill on S/P A/T condi needs to be avoided or you're going to take an incredible amount of damage/get CC'd. Not to mention that you can't even punish a Mirage with well-timed CCs because they can just dodge after getting hit by one (lol). Making a comparison between Mirage and the meme Sic Em + OWP Soulbeast is a joke considering there are very high level power shatter players that can compete at the top level with builds like that.

I wasn't grouping it together?Though merely stating that the complaints for mirage did group them together, thus why it's in the state it is now.

Why? ...Because Mirage has a way more reliable, frequent burst while having more team utility/mobility/survivability than SE OWP Soulbeast. Good players will still get insta-gibbed by Mirage, but they can easily counter a longbow ranger.

I wouldn't call them good players if they are still getting insta-gibbed by a class that has had it's damage AND utility nerfed to core levels for a year. Right now warrior, soulbeast, holo, and rev do just as much if not more damage currently. Yet here we are defending the damage output now, when people were condemning it then.I would love to see what survivavbility/utility/mobility you are talking about that hasn't been nerfed. MC doesn't cover half the ambushes, so they can be interrupted for little to no gain.The vigor that the class needed for it's survivability was nerfed before that.The utility was nerfedThe damage was nerfed.And they only hit condi LAST after they kept missing and nerfing power instead.

Are you one of those people that think clones are a defense?Do you think portal is still used outside of tightnit groups?Do you consider the nerfed jaunt still worth the slot?

Like, their is a reason people are playing Chrono.Power and condi variants at that.

  1. Funnily enough, Mirage is still very strong.

    LOL

  2. There's been a power mesmer player on the team that has won nearly every single MAT on NA. They wouldn't have used it for monthlies if it didn't work/wasn't effective against top players in an organized environment. So you're claim that "they weren't represented in the top percentiles of the meta" is false. Again, unlike mesmer, there really ISN'T any representation for rangers at the top end asides from maybe one or two ranger players in the top 25 (same as mesmer). The SE OWP SLB build is NEVER used in competitive because any competent player can completely shut down the longbow's burst without using any defensive cooldowns.

I guess I should say I have been looking at EU ( it's where I do mah PvP ) And their has NOT been a power mirage in the mAT's for a couple of months now. ( I am sorry to say as a native NA player, when me and my WvW roaming friend moved to EU, the quality of pvp we have had their has been IMO vastly superior)Your second statement doesn't make sense. Are you saying that two players is representation for mesmer, but not representation for ranger?

Besides that-The arguement of " We cannot balance around the top percentile of players" was a very overused argument as to why mirage needed to be nerfed because of it's over-representation at the bottom.You know where all the meme builds sit.

And just to make sure I get this right.Your reasoning as to why Soulbeast doesn't deserve to be nerfed is because power mirage used to be more powerful before it was nerfed to the ground. So soulbeast can stay powerful cause it isn't Elusive Mind power mirage powerful.

K, That helps a ton so I can grasp the perspective of other ranger mains who are defending their class.

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@"Solori.6025"

  1. Mur plays power mantra Mirage at a pretty high level. One of his favorite combos is stealthing with torch 4 from extremely far away, blink, jaunt, sword leap to travel 2250 range while still in stealth and gs shatter combo. With this, he can respawn at Legacy and blow someone up at mid shortly after exiting the gate. Unlike a SE OWP SLB rotation, you'll never see the Mirage coming because of how far he can travel while in stealth. 2250 range is essentially two+ entire screens away.
  2. That's exactly my point. Good players can still get dropped by a mantra mesmer fairly easily. Mantras are INSTANT cast. If the person playing mantra mesmer has any semblance of timing, he'll land the entire burst 98% of the time. LoS has no effect on this burst because it relies on a teleport or stealth to set it up. Any player hit by this will have ZERO chance to walk behind an obstacle because they would've lost most/all of their health as soon as they see the first damage indicator for Mirror Blade.
  3. I'm guessing you haven't seen some of the 1v1 tournies that were streamed on NA. Usually at least one of the finalists/favorites to win were players using zerker/marauder mantras with core mesmer/mirage.Why? ...Like I said before, these builds are extremely effective. Even in dueling scenarios with no build restrictions, the frequent, reliable burst (with or without stealth), constant-high damage ranged pressure coupled with high mobility are very hard for a good player to deal with.
  4. Take Mirage Thrust for example. You can interrupt the actual Mirage before the attack lands, but you still get dazed because of Infinite Horizon. Even if you SOMEHOW managed to AoE interrupt every single illusion at the end of their evade frames (which is basically impossible if they're staggered), you can't even punish the Mirage after because he can just enter Mirage Cloak while he's CC'd.
  5. Again, while Mirage isn't S+ tier like it used to be, it's still very effective in the right hands.
  6. The general quality of randoms in EU PvP might be higher because of the increased population. However, the top players on NA are just the same skill level as the top ones on EU. Even then, there's probably about 15-ish players on NA that I'd consider "pros" compared to the 25-ish on EU. So, the difference isn't THAT big.
  7. I couldn't care less about representation. It's not an effective way to judge how strong classes/builds are. The only reason I mentioned representation in the top 25 was because you did. I have never used it as a reason to justify nerfs/buffs.

You seem to misunderstand. I REALLY dislike the SE OWP SLB builds.I'd love it if they were removed from the game completely because of how little skill they take to play coupled with how INEFFECTIVE they are against anyone with their monitor turned on.

Furthermore, the whole "EU PvP is superior" argument is extremely overused. I did my placements twice on EU on my alt account with 180 ping and placed around 1840 (top 30) during Season Nine and Ten. And yes, that's higher than I get on NA because it's easier to steal rating due to the higher population.

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@shadowpass.4236 said:@Solori.6025

  1. Yeah because unlike the one-shot soulbeast build, you can't just walk away from the power Mirage to avoid the entire burst. Worldly Impact is stationary and Rapid Fire can be completely avoided by walking behind LoS. On the other hand, the Mirage has instant cast mantras combined with a greatsword shatter combo that can one-shot from stealth up to 2250 range away.What are you smoking? From where you get 2250 range?!Soulbeast oneshot that comes from from possible 1900 range and if you dont react instant, you are dead on spot without a chance getting to LoS, hi quickness and follow up with smokescale->gs.Unlike soulbeast oneshot dodging once is enough to avoid entire combo when SLB 2 wont be enough just as blocks/reflects wont work.Making a comparison between Mirage and the meme Sic Em + OWP Soulbeast is a joke considering there are very high level power shatter players that can compete at the top level with builds like that.Why? ...Because its NA. Replace mirage on any class and that team still roflface other teams like they dont exist regardless.Because Mirage has a way more reliable, frequent burst while having more team utility/mobility/survivability than SE OWP Soulbeast. Good players will still get insta-gibbed by Mirage, but they can easily counter a longbow ranger.Double mantra zerk has reliable/frequent(lolwat) burst? What mobility compared to gs3/bird/perma swiftness? Survivability with just one stealth on 30s cd? Really? Did you even think about it for a second ? How would you use blink in that case? To try to burst or try to disengage once you get attention? How you use stealth? For burst or for escaping?
  2. Read above. For a reason not even one power mesmer was spotted at EU mAT (Scepter chronobunker=/=power mesmer or that instabig mirage with 2 mantras),unless you willing to show uber dominating isntagibbing mirage everyone and everything as you claim it to be, latest mAT mesmer main had to play the most modern and skill based class - scrapper

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@praqtos.9035 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:@"Solori.6025"
  1. Yeah because unlike the one-shot soulbeast build, you can't just walk away from the power Mirage to avoid the entire burst. Worldly Impact is stationary and Rapid Fire can be completely avoided by walking behind LoS. On the other hand, the Mirage has instant cast mantras combined with a greatsword shatter combo that can one-shot from stealth up to 2250 range away.What are you smoking? From where you get 2250 range?!Soulbeast oneshot that comes from from possible 1900 range and if you dont react instant, you are dead on spot without a chance getting to LoS, hi quickness and follow up with smokescale->gs.Unlike soulbeast oneshot dodging once is enough to avoid entire combo when SLB 2 wont be enough just as blocks/reflects wont work.Making a comparison between Mirage and the meme Sic Em + OWP Soulbeast is a joke considering there are very high level power shatter players that can compete at the top level with builds like that.
    Why?
    ...Because its NA. Replace mirage on any class and that team still roflface other teams like they dont exist regardless.Because Mirage has a way more reliable, frequent burst while having more team utility/mobility/survivability than SE OWP Soulbeast. Good players will still get insta-gibbed by Mirage, but they can easily counter a longbow ranger.Double mantra zerk has reliable/frequent(lolwat) burst? What mobility compared to gs3/bird/perma swiftness? Survivability with just one stealth on 30s cd? Really? Did you even think about it for a second ? How would you use blink in that case? To try to burst or try to disengage once you get attention? How you use stealth? For burst or for escaping?
  2. Read above. For a reason not even one power mesmer was spotted at EU mAT (Scepter chronobunker=/=power mesmer or that instabig mirage with 2 mantras),unless you willing to show uber dominating isntagibbing mirage everyone and everything as you claim it to be, latest mAT mesmer main had to play the most modern and skill based class - scrapper

lol

  1. Blink (1200 range) + Jaunt (450 range) + Mirage Thrust (600 range) = 2250 range
  2. I can link a vod footage from my streams that show me winning 1vXs against Sic Em One Wolf Pack Longbow Soulbeasts. I have never died "on the spot" even though I reacted shortly after getting hit by a Point Blank Shot for half my health. Why? I stunbreak, dodge, and use any other defenses I need to in order to make it behind LoS and/or to kill the ranger quickly so I don't have to worry about getting shot in the back.
  3. Exactly. So, if you don't see the Mirage coming and don't randomly dodge the combo from stealth, you INSTANTLY eat all of the damage and die. However, as you said it yourself, one dodge isn't enough to avoid the FULL BURST from a longbow Soulbeast. Thus, you have time to save yourself soon after you take the first hit.
  4. The same team on NA that runs Mirage beat EU's top team during the last big tournament. Also, don't use ping as an argument. 3/5 of the players on NA (the ones who live on the west coast) had about the same/higher ping than than some of the players from EU.
  5. This is why I don't use representation as an argument. There's never been a SE OWP LB Soulbeast in the finals for any MAT but I still think it's a dumb build to play/fight against. However, the only times I ever argue for a nerf are when:
    • The build takes absolutely ZERO skill to play effectively (D/D condi thief, old bunker phantasm chrono, SE OWP LB SLB, etc. etc.)
    • The skill required to play a build that's extraordinarily difficult for a top player to deal with is SEVERELY disproportionate in regards to how much skill it takes to play. (Condi Mirage, old bunker chrono, etc. etc.)

As you can see, SE OWP LB SLB falls into the category of, "Complete trash builds that only kill you if you're closing your eyes but still do way too much damage because of two buttons they pressed (SE and OWP)."

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@shadowpass.4236 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:@"Solori.6025"
  1. Yeah because unlike the one-shot soulbeast build, you can't just walk away from the power Mirage to avoid the entire burst. Worldly Impact is stationary and Rapid Fire can be completely avoided by walking behind LoS. On the other hand, the Mirage has instant cast mantras combined with a greatsword shatter combo that can one-shot from stealth up to 2250 range away.What are you smoking? From where you get 2250 range?!Soulbeast oneshot that comes from from possible 1900 range and if you dont react instant, you are dead on spot without a chance getting to LoS, hi quickness and follow up with smokescale->gs.Unlike soulbeast oneshot dodging once is enough to avoid entire combo when SLB 2 wont be enough just as blocks/reflects wont work.Making a comparison between Mirage and the meme Sic Em + OWP Soulbeast is a joke considering there are very high level power shatter players that can compete at the top level with builds like that.
    Why?
    ...Because its NA. Replace mirage on any class and that team still roflface other teams like they dont exist regardless.Because Mirage has a way more reliable, frequent burst while having more team utility/mobility/survivability than SE OWP Soulbeast. Good players will still get insta-gibbed by Mirage, but they can easily counter a longbow ranger.Double mantra zerk has reliable/frequent(lolwat) burst? What mobility compared to gs3/bird/perma swiftness? Survivability with just one stealth on 30s cd? Really? Did you even think about it for a second ? How would you use blink in that case? To try to burst or try to disengage once you get attention? How you use stealth? For burst or for escaping?
  2. Read above. For a reason not even one power mesmer was spotted at EU mAT (Scepter chronobunker=/=power mesmer or that instabig mirage with 2 mantras),unless you willing to show uber dominating isntagibbing mirage everyone and everything as you claim it to be, latest mAT mesmer main had to play the most modern and skill based class - scrapper

lol
  1. Blink (1200 range) + Jaunt (450 range) + Mirage Thrust (600 range) = 2250 range
  2. I can link a vod footage from my streams that show me winning 1vXs against Sic Em One Wolf Pack Longbow Soulbeasts. I have never died "on the spot" even though I reacted shortly
    after
    getting hit by a Point Blank Shot for half my health. Why? I stunbreak, dodge, and use any other defenses I need to in order to make it behind LoS and/or to kill the ranger quickly so I don't have to worry about getting shot in the back.
  3. Exactly. So, if you don't see the Mirage coming and don't randomly dodge the combo from stealth, you INSTANTLY eat all of the damage and die. However, as you said it yourself, one dodge isn't enough to avoid the FULL BURST from a longbow Soulbeast. Thus, you have time to save yourself soon after you take the first hit.
  4. The same team on NA that runs Mirage beat EU's top team during the last big tournament. Also, don't use ping as an argument. 3/5 of the players on NA (the ones who live on the west coast) had about the same/higher ping than than some of the players from EU.
  5. This is why I don't use representation as an argument. There's no SE OWP LB Soulbeast in the finals for any MAT but I still think it's a dumb build to play/fight against. However, the only times I ever argue for a nerf are when:
    • The build takes absolutely ZERO skill to play effectively (D/D condi thief, old bunker phantasm chrono, SE OWP LB SLB, etc. etc.)
    • The skill required to play a build that's extraordinarily difficult for a top player to deal with is SEVERELY disproportionate in regards to how much skill it takes to play. (Condi Mirage, old bunker chrono, etc. etc.)

As you can see, SE OWP LB SLB falls into the category of "Complete trash builds that only kill you if you're closing your eyes but still do way too much damage because of two buttons they pressed (SE and OWP)."I just lol at this 2250 range tbh, tremendous waste of resources with no guarantee on kill and once you fail you are as good as dead, which is exact why its a memeI should watch NA quality players playing like monkaS and fail to deliver anything? Sounds like a plan ! /sNot really instant, countless amount of times I evaded that unless you completely brain afk and dont even think about it even then passives carry the day for thieves/holos/scrappers/spbs and whoever passive-autoproc saved there.He didnt ran that magical almighty doublemantra, didnt he ? Correct me if i'm wrong but isnt that the only "team" in the entire game? If you can prove ping thing then I believe, otherwise not.Before they deleted pretty much every major master trait at dueling mesmer representation was close to none, didnt stop them.Honestly, I highly dont care about mirage, dodge in CC made everyone scream like autists with foam at the mouth and instead of solve the problems they intentionally made for sales,they just ruined core to hell.The same I can say about mesmer burst, only blind can die to it
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@shadowpass.4236 said:@"Solori.6025"

  1. Mur plays power mantra Mirage at a pretty high level. One of his favorite combos is stealthing with torch 4 from extremely far away, blink, jaunt, sword leap to travel 2250 range while still in stealth and gs shatter combo. With this, he can respawn at Legacy and blow someone up at mid shortly after exiting the gate. Unlike a SE OWP SLB rotation, you'll never see the Mirage coming because of how far he can travel while in stealth. 2250 range is essentially two+ entire screens away.

....So with 3 seconds of stealth. The distance from gate to mid from red ( and blue) is too far.tested with 63ping and 100FPS.Would be great if you can link a recent vid of him doing this.Until then, Imma say this is impossible currently.

  • By the time you get to the point where mid shows up or about 300-200 units away from mid point stealth ends.
  1. That's exactly my point. Good players can still get dropped by a mantra mesmer fairly easily. Mantras are INSTANT cast. If the person playing mantra mesmer has any semblance of timing, he'll land the entire burst 98% of the time. LoS has no effect on this burst because it relies on a teleport or stealth to set it up. Any player hit by this will have ZERO chance to walk behind an obstacle because they would've lost most/all of their health as soon as they see the first damage indicator for Mirror Blade.

Correction- They will have lost MOST of their health, not all, as this spec has been nerfed repeatedly to prevent this at the behest and spearheading of the "Knowledgeable community"Unlike the Rangers Maul or WI oneshot. Which will kill you from stealth and you wont see it coming at all, someone posted an image of a 25k+ hit on these boards.Everyone else doing this damage was nerfed. I fully expect ranger to follow.

AND this isn't even taking into account the followup AA's from soulbeast that hit for 8-10k

  1. I'm guessing you haven't seen some of the 1v1 tournies that were streamed on NA. Usually at least one of the finalists/favorites to win were players using zerker/marauder mantras with core mesmer/mirage.

No.. I honestly didn't know NA had 1v1's Last I read they didn't let mirage in because of Elusive Mind.Last I also checked Boonbeast was the 1v1 king

Why?Like I said before, these builds are extremely effective. Even in dueling scenarios with no build restrictions, the frequent, reliable burst (with or without stealth), constant-high damage ranged pressure coupled with high mobility are very hard for a good player to deal with.

  1. Take Mirage Thrust for example. You can interrupt the actual Mirage before the attack lands, but you still get dazed because of Infinite Horizon. Even if you SOMEHOW managed to AoE interrupt every single illusion at the end of their evade frames (which is basically impossible if they're staggered), you can't even punish the Mirage after because he can just enter Mirage Cloak while he's CC'd.

Most people learned to cleave clones. What that scenario actually looks like is mesmer summons clones.... clones die from cleave . . .( and this is assuming that the mirage is using sword which has also been nerfed and is still behind scepter in terms of utility )Unless this is done ONLY from stealth ( like the oneshot maul) this is one of the easiest things to shut down and avoid at this point and also one of the easier to punish .

I don't understand honestly how double mantra power mirage is this oppressive thing when a Holo/rev/soulbeast has more damage and has access to more reliable defenses and CC.Like I know NA and EU are vastly different but it cant be THAT different that players still think Double Mantra is meta or as effective as the other top specs.

  1. I couldn't care less about representation. It's not an effective way to judge how strong classes/builds are. The only reason I mentioned representation in the top 25 was because you did.

Ahh ok. Let me explain this then.

Once upon a time players in the forum wanted Condi-Mirage nerfed ( I was one of those people but I wanted it nerfed the right way, not in the way the "knowledgable community" wanted it gutted)Some mirage players that mained condi mirage used the argument that Condi mirage was not overly represented in the top percentiles of pvp. In other words they did not dominate the top 25 or even 100 spots. So the calls for nerfs were being done by players in the lower brackets of pvp silver to gold. ( mid gold).The response to this was " So what, we don't and shouldn't balance the game around the top percentile of players because that isn't where the majority is".This was the precedent set for where things should be considered when nerfs are being requested.Fast forward to now.

The argument Shot down for mesmers about leaderboard representation is being re-used to justify why the ranger builds deserve to not be nerfed and justification as to why it needs to stay the way it is.

Going to my first post. ^ That is what I am talking about when I call out the Hypocrisy in this thread. ( among other things)

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@praqtos.9035 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:@"Solori.6025"
  1. Yeah because unlike the one-shot soulbeast build, you can't just walk away from the power Mirage to avoid the entire burst. Worldly Impact is stationary and Rapid Fire can be completely avoided by walking behind LoS. On the other hand, the Mirage has instant cast mantras combined with a greatsword shatter combo that can one-shot from stealth up to 2250 range away.What are you smoking? From where you get 2250 range?!Soulbeast oneshot that comes from from possible 1900 range and if you dont react instant, you are dead on spot without a chance getting to LoS, hi quickness and follow up with smokescale->gs.Unlike soulbeast oneshot dodging once is enough to avoid entire combo when SLB 2 wont be enough just as blocks/reflects wont work.Making a comparison between Mirage and the meme Sic Em + OWP Soulbeast is a joke considering there are very high level power shatter players that can compete at the top level with builds like that.
    Why?
    ...Because its NA. Replace mirage on any class and that team still roflface other teams like they dont exist regardless.Because Mirage has a way more reliable, frequent burst while having more team utility/mobility/survivability than SE OWP Soulbeast. Good players will still get insta-gibbed by Mirage, but they can easily counter a longbow ranger.Double mantra zerk has reliable/frequent(lolwat) burst? What mobility compared to gs3/bird/perma swiftness? Survivability with just one stealth on 30s cd? Really? Did you even think about it for a second ? How would you use blink in that case? To try to burst or try to disengage once you get attention? How you use stealth? For burst or for escaping?
  2. Read above. For a reason not even one power mesmer was spotted at EU mAT (Scepter chronobunker=/=power mesmer or that instabig mirage with 2 mantras),unless you willing to show uber dominating isntagibbing mirage everyone and everything as you claim it to be, latest mAT mesmer main had to play the most modern and skill based class - scrapper

lol
  1. Blink (1200 range) + Jaunt (450 range) + Mirage Thrust (600 range) = 2250 range
  2. I can link a vod footage from my streams that show me winning 1vXs against Sic Em One Wolf Pack Longbow Soulbeasts. I have never died "on the spot" even though I reacted shortly
    after
    getting hit by a Point Blank Shot for half my health. Why? I stunbreak, dodge, and use any other defenses I need to in order to make it behind LoS and/or to kill the ranger quickly so I don't have to worry about getting shot in the back.
  3. Exactly. So, if you don't see the Mirage coming and don't randomly dodge the combo from stealth, you INSTANTLY eat all of the damage and die. However, as you said it yourself, one dodge isn't enough to avoid the FULL BURST from a longbow Soulbeast. Thus, you have time to save yourself soon after you take the first hit.
  4. The same team on NA that runs Mirage beat EU's top team during the last big tournament. Also, don't use ping as an argument. 3/5 of the players on NA (the ones who live on the west coast) had about the same/higher ping than than some of the players from EU.
  5. This is why I don't use representation as an argument. There's no SE OWP LB Soulbeast in the finals for any MAT but I still think it's a dumb build to play/fight against. However, the only times I ever argue for a nerf are when:
    • The build takes absolutely ZERO skill to play effectively (D/D condi thief, old bunker phantasm chrono, SE OWP LB SLB, etc. etc.)
    • The skill required to play a build that's extraordinarily difficult for a top player to deal with is SEVERELY disproportionate in regards to how much skill it takes to play. (Condi Mirage, old bunker chrono, etc. etc.)

As you can see, SE OWP LB SLB falls into the category of "Complete trash builds that only kill you if you're closing your eyes but still do way too much damage because of two buttons they pressed (SE and OWP)."I just lol at this 2250 range tbh, tremendous waste of resources with no guarantee on kill and once you fail you are as good as dead, which is exact why its a memeI should watch NA quality players playing like monkaS and fail to deliver anything? Sounds like a plan ! /sNot really instant, countless amount of times I evaded that unless you completely brain afk and dont even think about it even then passives carry the day for thieves/holos/scrappers/spbs and whoever passive-autoproc saved there.He didnt ran that magical almighty doublemantra, didnt he ? Correct me if i'm wrong but isnt that the only "team" in the entire game? If you can prove ping thing then I believe, otherwise not.Before they deleted pretty much every major master trait at dueling mesmer representation was close to none, didnt stop them.Honestly, I highly dont care about mirage, dodge in CC made everyone scream like autists with foam at the mouth and instead of solve the problems they intentionally made for sales,they just ruined core to hell.The same I can say about mesmer burst, only blind can die to it
  1. That's why mantra mesmers play heavily around LoS. They don't need an immense amount of defenses when all they need to do is burst, kite behind LoS, and repeat. Eventually, either their opponent manages to kill them or they make a mistake and get one-shot.
  2. While the number of top players on EU is higher, the skill level of top players on NA is the same.
  3. Just because you evaded the attack doesn't mean it's not nearly instant. You can watch any montage of a power mesmer hitting their combo and you have about a quarter of a second to react before you die. Compare that to SE OWP LB SLBs who need to channel about 1.9 seconds of Rapid Fire to kill someone.
  4. No he didn't run mantas. He despises them because of how little skill they require to play effectively.
  5. I believe there's a screenshot somewhere from Jeff a few months ago that showed how high his ping was during that tournament.
  6. I don't understand what you're talking about but in regards to the mantra mesmer burst: the mantras are instant cast so whether or not the damage lands depends on the mesmer, not their target.
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@shadowpass.4236 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:@"Solori.6025"
  1. Yeah because unlike the one-shot soulbeast build, you can't just walk away from the power Mirage to avoid the entire burst. Worldly Impact is stationary and Rapid Fire can be completely avoided by walking behind LoS. On the other hand, the Mirage has instant cast mantras combined with a greatsword shatter combo that can one-shot from stealth up to 2250 range away.What are you smoking? From where you get 2250 range?!Soulbeast oneshot that comes from from possible 1900 range and if you dont react instant, you are dead on spot without a chance getting to LoS, hi quickness and follow up with smokescale->gs.Unlike soulbeast oneshot dodging once is enough to avoid entire combo when SLB 2 wont be enough just as blocks/reflects wont work.Making a comparison between Mirage and the meme Sic Em + OWP Soulbeast is a joke considering there are very high level power shatter players that can compete at the top level with builds like that.
    Why?
    ...Because its NA. Replace mirage on any class and that team still roflface other teams like they dont exist regardless.Because Mirage has a way more reliable, frequent burst while having more team utility/mobility/survivability than SE OWP Soulbeast. Good players will still get insta-gibbed by Mirage, but they can easily counter a longbow ranger.Double mantra zerk has reliable/frequent(lolwat) burst? What mobility compared to gs3/bird/perma swiftness? Survivability with just one stealth on 30s cd? Really? Did you even think about it for a second ? How would you use blink in that case? To try to burst or try to disengage once you get attention? How you use stealth? For burst or for escaping?
  2. Read above. For a reason not even one power mesmer was spotted at EU mAT (Scepter chronobunker=/=power mesmer or that instabig mirage with 2 mantras),unless you willing to show uber dominating isntagibbing mirage everyone and everything as you claim it to be, latest mAT mesmer main had to play the most modern and skill based class - scrapper

lol
  1. Blink (1200 range) + Jaunt (450 range) + Mirage Thrust (600 range) = 2250 range
  2. I can link a vod footage from my streams that show me winning 1vXs against Sic Em One Wolf Pack Longbow Soulbeasts. I have never died "on the spot" even though I reacted shortly
    after
    getting hit by a Point Blank Shot for half my health. Why? I stunbreak, dodge, and use any other defenses I need to in order to make it behind LoS and/or to kill the ranger quickly so I don't have to worry about getting shot in the back.
  3. Exactly. So, if you don't see the Mirage coming and don't randomly dodge the combo from stealth, you INSTANTLY eat all of the damage and die. However, as you said it yourself, one dodge isn't enough to avoid the FULL BURST from a longbow Soulbeast. Thus, you have time to save yourself soon after you take the first hit.
  4. The same team on NA that runs Mirage beat EU's top team during the last big tournament. Also, don't use ping as an argument. 3/5 of the players on NA (the ones who live on the west coast) had about the same/higher ping than than some of the players from EU.
  5. This is why I don't use representation as an argument. There's no SE OWP LB Soulbeast in the finals for any MAT but I still think it's a dumb build to play/fight against. However, the only times I ever argue for a nerf are when:
    • The build takes absolutely ZERO skill to play effectively (D/D condi thief, old bunker phantasm chrono, SE OWP LB SLB, etc. etc.)
    • The skill required to play a build that's extraordinarily difficult for a top player to deal with is SEVERELY disproportionate in regards to how much skill it takes to play. (Condi Mirage, old bunker chrono, etc. etc.)

As you can see, SE OWP LB SLB falls into the category of "Complete trash builds that only kill you if you're closing your eyes but still do way too much damage because of two buttons they pressed (SE and OWP)."I just lol at this 2250 range tbh, tremendous waste of resources with no guarantee on kill and once you fail you are as good as dead, which is exact why its a memeI should watch NA quality players playing like monkaS and fail to deliver anything? Sounds like a plan ! /sNot really instant, countless amount of times I evaded that unless you completely brain afk and dont even think about it even then passives carry the day for thieves/holos/scrappers/spbs and whoever passive-autoproc saved there.He didnt ran that magical almighty doublemantra, didnt he ? Correct me if i'm wrong but isnt that the only "team" in the entire game? If you can prove ping thing then I believe, otherwise not.Before they deleted pretty much every major master trait at dueling mesmer representation was close to none, didnt stop them.Honestly, I highly dont care about mirage, dodge in CC made everyone scream like autists with foam at the mouth and instead of solve the problems they intentionally made for sales,they just ruined core to hell.The same I can say about mesmer burst, only blind can die to it
  1. That's why mantra mesmers play heavily around LoS. They don't need an immense amount of defenses when all they need to do is burst, kite behind LoS, and repeat. Eventually, either their opponent manages to kill them or they make a mistake and get one-shot.
  2. While the number of top players on EU is higher, the skill level of top players on NA is the same.
  3. Just because you evaded the attack doesn't mean it's not nearly instant. You can watch any montage of a power mesmer hitting their combo and you have about a quarter of a second to react before you die. Compare that to SE OWP LB SLBs who need to channel about 1.9 seconds of Rapid Fire to kill someone.
  4. No he didn't run mantas. He despises them because of how little skill they require to play effectively.
  5. I believe there's a screenshot somewhere from Jeff a few months ago that showed how high his ping was during that tournament.
  6. I don't understand what you're talking about but in regards to the mantra mesmer burst: the mantras are instant cast so whether or not the damage lands depends on the mesmer, not their target.I have no idea what LoS you talking about, all I can imagine if I'd play mantra mesmer any thieves/revs/holos/scrappers would eat me alive on the map and make me rage delete the game despite all LoS you can find on mapsSo did you farm 2 top players you 1x2'd?I dont have issues with mantra mesmers because they waste their mantra and free to kill in 99% of the cases and easly shut down by a thief that has 0.5 of a brain cell or just a rev that need to use only one UA to send him on respawn , they suffer from LoS the most as their only opportunity is blink which is on 30s cd, may the god bless you if you play against two s/d thieves.Most likely because its hot garbage, no other reason, as it to "have fun" like this meme zerk DE.I dont know even...except that no one ever playing this mantras here, ever... I tried few time and I was irritated how dumb to run around and before every burst you need to basically stand AFK waiting for mantra to charge and your target is jumping like monkey and to land the burst he shouldnt random evade/block/have stability/passives to actually kill something. Thats where "reliable" becomes highly UNRELIABLE for me. Missed a burst ? How do you RELIABLY land it with f3 being 38s cd?
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@"Solori.6025"

Your formatting is really spacey and hard to read.

  1. I said that combo was possible "shortly AFTER exiting the gate." Mur showed me where he positions himself prior to blowing someone up at mid.He starts here (approximately 5 seconds after walking out of the gate) so that he can see everyone at mid while hiding behind LoS. Then he stealths, uses Blink, Jaunt, and Mirage Thrust to get to here where he does the shatter combo.
  2. Um... CORRECTION: mantras have been buffed nearly every time they've been mentioned in the patch notes. Buff = opposite of a nerf btw
  3. The reason you see more mesmer one-shot compilations than ranger one-shot compilations is because the mesmer build is way more effective/viable.
  4. I've been in the finals for the past two 1v1 tournaments on NA. The first one I lost 0-2 to Kronos playing EM condi Mirage at it's prime 0-2. The second one I won 2-1 against CJ playing core mantra shatter mesmer. While the condi Mirage build was extremely overpowered back then, the core mantra mesmer was harder to fight because if I messed up once I was dead. The duel went on for about 15-20 minutes because he was abusing LoS so that I couldn't kill his zerker build and I had to play perfectly and correctly react to/predict his shatters/mantras so that I wouldn't get 100-0'd or have my heal interrupted.Also, there were usually one or two mantra mesmers that made it pretty far in the brackets simply because players who didn't know how to defend themselves against the massive bursts from stealth/teleport got blown up pretty fast.
  5. I said that the mantra mesmer builds were very effective. I never said that they were meta/as effective as other top specs.
  6. Zeromis swapped from his power shatter build to condi during a few of the MATs I believe. So the representation at the "top percentiles of PvP" was there.
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@praqtos.9035 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:@"Solori.6025"
  1. Yeah because unlike the one-shot soulbeast build, you can't just walk away from the power Mirage to avoid the entire burst. Worldly Impact is stationary and Rapid Fire can be completely avoided by walking behind LoS. On the other hand, the Mirage has instant cast mantras combined with a greatsword shatter combo that can one-shot from stealth up to 2250 range away.What are you smoking? From where you get 2250 range?!Soulbeast oneshot that comes from from possible 1900 range and if you dont react instant, you are dead on spot without a chance getting to LoS, hi quickness and follow up with smokescale->gs.Unlike soulbeast oneshot dodging once is enough to avoid entire combo when SLB 2 wont be enough just as blocks/reflects wont work.Making a comparison between Mirage and the meme Sic Em + OWP Soulbeast is a joke considering there are very high level power shatter players that can compete at the top level with builds like that.
    Why?
    ...Because its NA. Replace mirage on any class and that team still roflface other teams like they dont exist regardless.Because Mirage has a way more reliable, frequent burst while having more team utility/mobility/survivability than SE OWP Soulbeast. Good players will still get insta-gibbed by Mirage, but they can easily counter a longbow ranger.Double mantra zerk has reliable/frequent(lolwat) burst? What mobility compared to gs3/bird/perma swiftness? Survivability with just one stealth on 30s cd? Really? Did you even think about it for a second ? How would you use blink in that case? To try to burst or try to disengage once you get attention? How you use stealth? For burst or for escaping?
  2. Read above. For a reason not even one power mesmer was spotted at EU mAT (Scepter chronobunker=/=power mesmer or that instabig mirage with 2 mantras),unless you willing to show uber dominating isntagibbing mirage everyone and everything as you claim it to be, latest mAT mesmer main had to play the most modern and skill based class - scrapper

lol
  1. Blink (1200 range) + Jaunt (450 range) + Mirage Thrust (600 range) = 2250 range
  2. I can link a vod footage from my streams that show me winning 1vXs against Sic Em One Wolf Pack Longbow Soulbeasts. I have never died "on the spot" even though I reacted shortly
    after
    getting hit by a Point Blank Shot for half my health. Why? I stunbreak, dodge, and use any other defenses I need to in order to make it behind LoS and/or to kill the ranger quickly so I don't have to worry about getting shot in the back.
  3. Exactly. So, if you don't see the Mirage coming and don't randomly dodge the combo from stealth, you INSTANTLY eat all of the damage and die. However, as you said it yourself, one dodge isn't enough to avoid the FULL BURST from a longbow Soulbeast. Thus, you have time to save yourself soon after you take the first hit.
  4. The same team on NA that runs Mirage beat EU's top team during the last big tournament. Also, don't use ping as an argument. 3/5 of the players on NA (the ones who live on the west coast) had about the same/higher ping than than some of the players from EU.
  5. This is why I don't use representation as an argument. There's no SE OWP LB Soulbeast in the finals for any MAT but I still think it's a dumb build to play/fight against. However, the only times I ever argue for a nerf are when:
    • The build takes absolutely ZERO skill to play effectively (D/D condi thief, old bunker phantasm chrono, SE OWP LB SLB, etc. etc.)
    • The skill required to play a build that's extraordinarily difficult for a top player to deal with is SEVERELY disproportionate in regards to how much skill it takes to play. (Condi Mirage, old bunker chrono, etc. etc.)

As you can see, SE OWP LB SLB falls into the category of "Complete trash builds that only kill you if you're closing your eyes but still do way too much damage because of two buttons they pressed (SE and OWP)."I just lol at this 2250 range tbh, tremendous waste of resources with no guarantee on kill and once you fail you are as good as dead, which is exact why its a memeI should watch NA quality players playing like monkaS and fail to deliver anything? Sounds like a plan ! /sNot really instant, countless amount of times I evaded that unless you completely brain afk and dont even think about it even then passives carry the day for thieves/holos/scrappers/spbs and whoever passive-autoproc saved there.He didnt ran that magical almighty doublemantra, didnt he ? Correct me if i'm wrong but isnt that the only "team" in the entire game? If you can prove ping thing then I believe, otherwise not.Before they deleted pretty much every major master trait at dueling mesmer representation was close to none, didnt stop them.Honestly, I highly dont care about mirage, dodge in CC made everyone scream like autists with foam at the mouth and instead of solve the problems they intentionally made for sales,they just ruined core to hell.The same I can say about mesmer burst, only blind can die to it
  1. That's why mantra mesmers play heavily around LoS. They don't need an immense amount of defenses when all they need to do is burst, kite behind LoS, and repeat. Eventually, either their opponent manages to kill them or they make a mistake and get one-shot.
  2. While the number of top players on EU is higher, the skill level of top players on NA is the same.
  3. Just because you evaded the attack doesn't mean it's not nearly instant. You can watch any montage of a power mesmer hitting their combo and you have about a quarter of a second to react before you die. Compare that to SE OWP LB SLBs who need to channel about 1.9 seconds of Rapid Fire to kill someone.
  4. No he didn't run mantas. He despises them because of how little skill they require to play effectively.
  5. I believe there's a screenshot somewhere from Jeff a few months ago that showed how high his ping was during that tournament.
  6. I don't understand what you're talking about but in regards to the mantra mesmer burst: the mantras are instant cast so whether or not the damage lands depends on the mesmer, not their target.I have no idea what LoS you talking about, all I can imagine if I'd play mantra mesmer any thieves/revs/holos/scrappers would eat me alive on the map and make me rage delete the game despite all LoS you can find on mapsSo did you farm 2 top players you 1x2'd?I dont have issues with mantra mesmers because they waste their mantra and free to kill in 99% of the cases and easly shut down by a thief that has 0.5 of a brain cell or just a rev that need to use only one UA to send him on respawn , they suffer from LoS the most as their only opportunity is blink which is on 30s cd, may the god bless you if you play against two s/d thieves.Most likely because its hot garbage, no other reason, as it to "have fun" like this meme zerk DE.I dont know even...except that no one ever playing this mantras here, ever... I tried few time and I was irritated how dumb to run around and before every burst you need to basically stand AFK waiting for mantra to charge and your target is jumping like monkey and to land the burst he shouldnt random evade/block/have stability/passives to actually kill something. Thats where "reliable" becomes highly UNRELIABLE for me. Missed a burst ? How do you RELIABLY land it with f3 being 38s cd?
  1. Watch one of Shorts' mantra mesmer videos like this one. He's probably a decent example of how to play it effectively/consistently land the burst. Also, there are probably better examples of him blowing someone up but the timestamp I linked was just what I found after spending 2 minutes looking for one.
  2. Yeah that's my job as a side noder. The vods are probably deleted by now but you might be able to find footage/multiple examples from one of Vallun's streams a few months ago where I'll be 1v1ing someone on a side node, he'll jump on me and I'll end up killing them both or he'll have to port away to save himself.
  3. Like I said before, mantras are instant cast so it's up to the mesmer if they land or not. If you see a mantra mesmer miss/waste them, he's not a good player.
  4. Again, if you're having a hard time playing mantra mesmer, you just need to practice more. It's not the most forgiving build to play, but if you know how to survive on it/land your bursts, it's very effective at carrying games. And, as you said yourself, the build is unreliable for YOU because you aren't good at it. Lastly, no, the burst does not require you to land Diversion in order to one-shot someone (which you can see in the clip I linked).

Watch that video for about 2 minutes after the timestamp.

 

  1. He survives a thief jumping on him
  2. Kills the thief
  3. Escapes from 4 people jumping on him at mid
  4. Thief gets rezzed
  5. He kills the thief again 30 seconds later
  6. Thief gets rezzed
  7. He goes mid and would've one-shot the scrapper if he didn't save himself with A.E.D.

At 3:40, Shorts:

 

  1. Survives a rev jumping on him
  2. Rotates to a 1v1 on Waterfall
  3. Kills the mesmer which rallies his downed teammate
  4. Kills the thief which rallies his downed teammate again
  5. Kills the scrapper

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@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:This debate is so powerful it broke the webpage. :p

Not sure if it's just me, but all clickables on this page from @"shadowpass.4236"'s post with the Spoiler buttons and up don't work. Everything after it works. The formatting on that post seems strange and none of the Spoiler buttons work. For me at least.

Yeah it's like that for me as well. I followed the instructions on how to put in the "spoilers" but it looks all janky lol

There's also a weird dot above each one of the posts following mine as if they're being bulleted.

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@shadowpass.4236 said:@"Solori.6025"

Your formatting is really spacey and hard to read.

  1. I said that combo was possible "shortly AFTER exiting the gate." Mur showed me where he positions himself prior to blowing someone up at mid.He starts here (approximately 5 seconds after walking out of the gate) so that he can see everyone at mid while hiding behind LoS. Then he stealths, uses Blink, Jaunt, and Mirage Thrust to get to here where he does the shatter combo.

Ahh I see.. So he does the same thing one shot maul rangers or Sicem Rangers do and use LoS to ambush targets.That makes more sense.

  1. Um... CORRECTION: mantras have been buffed nearly every time they've been mentioned in the patch notes. Buff = opposite of a nerf btwWasn't referring to mantra's specifically was referring to power mirage, and if you reply saying power mirage hasn't been nerfed would be blatantly false.

  2. The reason you see more mesmer one-shot compilations than ranger one-shot compilations is because the mesmer build is way more effective/viable.I actually am finding about an even number of vids just from a quick youtube search.Secondly if the mesmer build was viable and just as effective this board would be full of mesmer complaints like it was a year ago.Guess what isn't happening right now.

  3. I've been in the finals for the past two 1v1 tournaments on NA. The first one I lost 0-2 to Kronos playing EM condi Mirage at it's prime 0-2. The second one I won 2-1 against CJ playing core mantra shatter mesmer. While the condi Mirage build was extremely overpowered back then, the core mantra mesmer was harder to fight because if I messed up once I was dead. The duel went on for about 15-20 minutes because he was abusing LoS so that I couldn't kill his zerker build and I had to play perfectly and correctly react to/predict his shatters/mantras so that I wouldn't get 100-0'd or have my heal interrupted.So this is back before all the damage and vigor nerfs then.

  4. I said that the mantra mesmer builds were very effective. I never said that they were meta/as effective as other top specs.Ahh, I see the past tense. This makes sense as now they aren't.

  5. Zeromis swapped from his power shatter build to condi during a few of the MATs I believe. So the representation at the "top percentiles of PvP" was there.

From power to condi...So power wasn't represented then?Cause that was the topic of the discussion...

Edit: ?how is replying to individual points hard to read?Are you reading this from a cell phone?

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@Solori.6025 said:

Your formatting is really spacey and hard to read.
  1. I said that combo was possible "shortly AFTER exiting the gate." Mur showed me where he positions himself prior to blowing someone up at mid.He starts
    (approximately 5 seconds after walking out of the gate) so that he can see everyone at mid while hiding behind LoS. Then he stealths, uses Blink, Jaunt, and Mirage Thrust to get to
    where he does the shatter combo.

Ahh I see.. So he does the same thing one shot maul rangers or Sicem Rangers do and use LoS to ambush targets.That makes more sense.
  1. Um... CORRECTION: mantras have been buffed nearly every time they've been mentioned in the patch notes. Buff = opposite of a nerf btwWasn't referring to mantra's specifically was referring to power mirage, and if you reply saying power mirage hasn't been nerfed would be blatantly false.
  2. The reason you see more mesmer one-shot compilations than ranger one-shot compilations is because the mesmer build is way more effective/viable.I actually am finding about an even number of vids just from a quick youtube search.Secondly if the mesmer build was viable and just as effective this board would be full of mesmer complaints like it was a year ago.Guess what isn't happening right now.
  3. I've been in the finals for the past two 1v1 tournaments on NA. The first one I lost 0-2 to Kronos playing EM condi Mirage at it's prime 0-2. The second one I won 2-1 against CJ playing core mantra shatter mesmer. While the condi Mirage build was extremely overpowered back then, the core mantra mesmer was harder to fight because if I messed up once I was dead. The duel went on for about 15-20 minutes because he was abusing LoS so that I couldn't kill his zerker build and I had to play perfectly and correctly react to/predict his shatters/mantras so that I wouldn't get 100-0'd or have my heal interrupted.So this is back before all the damage and vigor nerfs then.
  4. I said that the mantra mesmer builds were very effective. I
    never
    said that they were meta/as effective as other top specs.Ahh, I see the past tense. This makes sense as now they aren't.
  5. Zeromis swapped from his power shatter build to condi during a few of the MATs I believe. So the representation at the "top percentiles of PvP" was there.

From power to condi...So power wasn't represented then?Cause that was the topic of the discussion...

Edit: ?how is replying to individual points hard to read?Are you reading this from a cell phone?

  1. Yep but mantra mesmer can actually escape pretty easily after doing their burst.
  2. I was talking about mantra power mesmers, you quoted me and said, "this spec has been nerfed repeatedly." Mantras have been buffed. Confounding Suggestions and Blinding Dissipation were the two nerfs that affected this build the most.
  3. How about you count them and let me know which one has more? /sI'm talking about the number of high level mesmer one-shot compilations compared to high level ranger ones. There's barely a handful of ranger ones that qualify because the builds simply aren't good.
  4. I don't recall. However, your statement that "Boonbeast is the 1v1 king" is false. Bunker Boonbeast loses against Spellbreaker, Holo, and Mirage currently. It's also worse in outnumbered fights.
  5. Congratulations you understand what "past tense" means. Yes, mantra mesmers aren't meta. However, they are still effective when played well against high level players.
  6. They've both been represented fairly equally in the MAT finals. It's only possible for Zeromis to play one or the other.
  7. Yes and no. I'm on my phone and my computer. As I said, your formatting is really spacey. I have to scroll up and down a lot to read your posts because you have quotes in between each one of your responses.
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@shadowpass.4236 said:

Your formatting is really spacey and hard to read.
  1. I said that combo was possible "shortly AFTER exiting the gate." Mur showed me where he positions himself prior to blowing someone up at mid.He starts
    (approximately 5 seconds after walking out of the gate) so that he can see everyone at mid while hiding behind LoS. Then he stealths, uses Blink, Jaunt, and Mirage Thrust to get to
    where he does the shatter combo.

Ahh I see.. So he does the same thing one shot maul rangers or Sicem Rangers do and use LoS to ambush targets.That makes more sense.
  1. Um... CORRECTION: mantras have been buffed nearly every time they've been mentioned in the patch notes. Buff = opposite of a nerf btwWasn't referring to mantra's specifically was referring to power mirage, and if you reply saying power mirage hasn't been nerfed would be blatantly false.
  2. The reason you see more mesmer one-shot compilations than ranger one-shot compilations is because the mesmer build is way more effective/viable.I actually am finding about an even number of vids just from a quick youtube search.Secondly if the mesmer build was viable and just as effective this board would be full of mesmer complaints like it was a year ago.Guess what isn't happening right now.
  3. I've been in the finals for the past two 1v1 tournaments on NA. The first one I lost 0-2 to Kronos playing EM condi Mirage at it's prime 0-2. The second one I won 2-1 against CJ playing core mantra shatter mesmer. While the condi Mirage build was extremely overpowered back then, the core mantra mesmer was harder to fight because if I messed up once I was dead. The duel went on for about 15-20 minutes because he was abusing LoS so that I couldn't kill his zerker build and I had to play perfectly and correctly react to/predict his shatters/mantras so that I wouldn't get 100-0'd or have my heal interrupted.So this is back before all the damage and vigor nerfs then.
  4. I said that the mantra mesmer builds were very effective. I
    never
    said that they were meta/as effective as other top specs.Ahh, I see the past tense. This makes sense as now they aren't.
  5. Zeromis swapped from his power shatter build to condi during a few of the MATs I believe. So the representation at the "top percentiles of PvP" was there.

From power to condi...So power wasn't represented then?Cause that was the topic of the discussion...

Edit: ?how is replying to individual points hard to read?Are you reading this from a cell phone?

  1. Yep but mantra mesmer can actually escape pretty easily after doing their burst.Ahh yes. Waste a stealth and a stun break and a jaunt.Can get away easily with no stun breaks.That..makes so much sense../s
  2. I was talking about mantra power mesmers, you quoted me and said, "this spec has been nerfed repeatedly." Mantras have been buffed. Confounding Suggestions and Blinding Dissipation were the two nerfs that affected this build the most.And the vigor nerfs which effected its sustain.The nerfs to jaunt which effected it's mobilityThe nerfs to Mirror blade which directly effected the burst.The nerfs to Mirage cloakthe nerfs to blurred frenzy..All of those effected power mes, and most of that happened while condi mes was rampant.
  3. How about you count them and let me know which one has more? /s

Rangers, I counted I swear.

I'm talking about the number of high level mesmer one-shot compilations compared to high level ranger ones. There's barely a handful of ranger ones that qualify because the builds simply aren't good.It's always funny when people add extra stipulations when the results are not in their favor.

  1. I don't recall.

    ...k..

  2. Congratulations you understand what "past tense" means. Yes, mantra mesmers aren't meta. However, they are still effective when played well against high level players.In the hands of high level players X build performs great.You know what else performs well when played well..every class ever.Like we could list every top teir player and say " Oh look, he played this so it's effective."Cause that's basically what's going to happen.

  3. They've both been represented fairly equally in the MAT finals. It's only possible for Zeromis to play one or the other.So one person is playing mirage still..Ok....see statement above.And again..EU.. No mirages in MAT finals.

  4. Yes and no. I'm on my phone and my computer. As I said, your formatting is really spacey. I have to scroll up and down a lot to read your posts because you have quotes in between each one of your responses......k....

Like it's all good to compare and stuff..That doesn't address the issue NOW of Soulbeast one button globalling people.When other classes have had nerfs for doing the same.

As you said. You don't like the spec.I personally don't care for it.But I want to see consistency in the way things are balanced.If one class is nerfed ( in this case a a few) through core and elite specs to deal with a problem. I see no reason why another class is automatically exempt from the same treatment.(and the whataboutism comparing a class at it's prime as reasons why another shouldn't be nerfed is balderdash)

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@verskore.4312 said:it's called 'being aware of your surroundings', if i know there's a pew pew soulbeast in the enemy team ill make sure i know where he is and i also make sure i have access to LoS if need be.I also dont see it 'overperforming' in '90%' of the game, most games have 1-2 soulbeasts and I barely ever see 3-4 in 1 game so what you're saying is just false.

You don't play ranked much, I can tell.

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@Solori.6025

Hey I feel like I'm wasting my time going back and forth. I didn't read your last post.

All I'm saying is that I don't enjoy using/fighting against SE OWP SLBs any more than you guys do albeit for different reasons. I couldn't care less if they were both removed from the game because I never use them.

I've always disliked one-shots from stealth because fights against those specs are mostly predictive instead of reactive. So, hopefully builds like that all get addressed at the same time. As I've suggested before, maybe removing Berserker Amulet from PvP would help alleviate the problem.

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@shadowpass.4236 said:@Solori.6025

Hey I feel like I'm wasting my time going back and forth. I didn't read your last post.

All I'm saying is that I don't enjoy using/fighting against SE OWP SLBs any more than you guys do albeit for different reasons. I couldn't care less if they were both removed from the game because I never use them.

I've always disliked one-shots from stealth because fights against those specs are mostly predictive instead of reactive. So, hopefully builds like that all get addressed at the same time. As I've suggested before, maybe removing Berserker Amulet from PvP would help alleviate the problem.

Sorry you feel that way.It's good to see your stance on that.My entire point is.You do for one- you do for all.No one class should ever be exempt from being treated like every other class.It sets a bad precedent, and will cause people to lose faith in the integrity of the team that balances.

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@"bOTEB.1573" said:

LOS iS yOuR fRiEnd
I don't care
SnIpEr iS a RoLe
I don't care
It'S nOt EvEn UsEd aT ToP LeVeL/mAt
I don't care

You just stated some of the reasons why SLB is in its current position, yet you don't respect these arguments. Remind me of my daughter that wanted a pony couple of years ago - really sweet kid ;)

I also stated why those reasons are invalid, but I suppose you ignored that.

@Crab Fear.1624 said:So soulbeast mains don't think the class is overtuned? Who thinks it is overtuned?

People playing another overtuned class like mesmers . engies , warriors..pick your poison...but all they share in common is that they're deluded...their own class should be on the chopping board along with soulbeast

In case you missed it, many of us here are also calling for Engies and Warriors (SB, Rampage) to be reigned in. Basically any still power-crept spec that's an outlier from the majority. And also in case you missed it, Mesmers already had their turn with the chopping board. It lasted over a year and gutted them anywhere from 50-67% across multiple traits, weapons, and skills, up and down both elites and core.

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@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@"bOTEB.1573" said:

LOS iS yOuR fRiEnd
I don't care
SnIpEr iS a RoLe
I don't care
It'S nOt EvEn UsEd aT ToP LeVeL/mAt
I don't care

You just stated some of the reasons why SLB is in its current position, yet you don't respect these arguments. Remind me of my daughter that wanted a pony couple of years ago - really sweet kid ;)

I also stated why those reasons are invalid, but I suppose you ignored that.

@Crab Fear.1624 said:So soulbeast mains don't think the class is overtuned? Who thinks it is overtuned?

People playing another overtuned class like mesmers . engies , warriors..pick your poison...but all they share in common is that they're deluded...their own class should be on the chopping board along with soulbeast

In case you missed it, many of us here are also calling for Engies and Warriors (SB, Rampage) to be reigned in. Basically any still power-crept spec that's an outlier from the majority. And also in case you missed it, Mesmers already had their turn with the chopping board. It lasted over a year and gutted them anywhere from 50-67% across multiple traits, weapons, and skills, up and down both elites and core.

Yes..as a part-time ranger main with over 2k hours I am all for nerfing Sic'em but at the same time I really need engies and warriors to be reigned in as soon as possible , I mainly play ranger to stand a chance against overtuned engies and wars...with everything else I can even use an ele

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@Arheundel.6451 said:

@"bOTEB.1573" said:

LOS iS yOuR fRiEnd
I don't care
SnIpEr iS a RoLe
I don't care
It'S nOt EvEn UsEd aT ToP LeVeL/mAt
I don't care

You just stated some of the reasons why SLB is in its current position, yet you don't respect these arguments. Remind me of my daughter that wanted a pony couple of years ago - really sweet kid ;)

I also stated why those reasons are invalid, but I suppose you ignored that.

@Crab Fear.1624 said:So soulbeast mains don't think the class is overtuned? Who thinks it is overtuned?

People playing another overtuned class like mesmers . engies , warriors..pick your poison...but all they share in common is that they're deluded...their own class should be on the chopping board along with soulbeast

In case you missed it, many of us here are also calling for Engies and Warriors (SB, Rampage) to be reigned in. Basically any still power-crept spec that's an outlier from the majority. And also in case you missed it, Mesmers already had their turn with the chopping board. It lasted over a year and gutted them anywhere from 50-67% across multiple traits, weapons, and skills, up and down both elites and core.

Yes..as a part-time ranger main with over 2k hours I am all for nerfing Sic'em but at the same time
I really need engies and warriors to be reigned in as soon as possible
, I mainly play ranger to stand a chance against overtuned engies and wars...with everything else I can even use an ele

Then I think we're on the same page. :smile:

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@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@"bOTEB.1573" said:

LOS iS yOuR fRiEnd
I don't care
SnIpEr iS a RoLe
I don't care
It'S nOt EvEn UsEd aT ToP LeVeL/mAt
I don't care

You just stated some of the reasons why SLB is in its current position, yet you don't respect these arguments. Remind me of my daughter that wanted a pony couple of years ago - really sweet kid ;)

I also stated why those reasons are invalid, but I suppose you ignored that.

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:So soulbeast mains don't think the class is overtuned? Who thinks it is overtuned?

People playing another overtuned class like mesmers . engies , warriors..pick your poison...but all they share in common is that they're deluded...their own class should be on the chopping board along with soulbeast

In case you missed it, many of us here are also calling for Engies and Warriors (SB, Rampage) to be reigned in. Basically any still power-crept spec that's an outlier from the majority. And also in case you missed it, Mesmers already had their turn with the chopping board. It lasted over a year and gutted them anywhere from 50-67% across multiple traits, weapons, and skills, up and down both elites and core.

Yes..as a part-time ranger main with over 2k hours I am all for nerfing Sic'em but at the same time
I really need engies and warriors to be reigned in as soon as possible
, I mainly play ranger to stand a chance against overtuned engies and wars...with everything else I can even use an ele

Then I think we're on the same page. :smile:

I wonder about that in truth...despite all these "nerfs" , the mesmer class itself it's still up there with the "gods"...not primordial god..but a god nevertheless, the nerfs mesmer received were not aimed to kill the class

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