Since banner Berserker is so strong again...

[cryorion.9532]

ANet is doing the same mistake they did in the past, buffing damages, just to nerf them in 6-12 months. As banner Berserker damages are so high now again, almost rivaling damages of condi banner Berserker in the past, that was nerfed, I can see all the nerfs in the future already. Banner Berserker builds are almost identical to DPS Berserker builds. Damage difference between banner Berserker and DPS Berserker is relatively small. The biggest issue is that currently there is no way to nerf only banner Berserker damage without also nerfing DPS Berserker damage at the same time.

In order to reduce damages of banner builds without nerfing Berserker dps builds overall, there are 2 options:

1. nerf primal burst skill damages and buff utility skill damages to the point where all 3 utility slots are crucial for maximal damage output - this way, bannerslave won't be able to deal similar damages as dps builds and also splitting banners between 2 berserkers wouldn't be that appealing - this change would have to be PvE only for obvious reasons
2. rework Tactics traitline and make it appealing to use for every banner/support build - this way dps builds will remaing unaffected (not taking into account buffs from reworked Tactics) and banner builds would have their damages reduced significantly due to either no Strength or Discipline traitline

Option 2 would be better due to making banner builds more support oriented, rather than just nerfing its damages.From the previous balance patches, ANet nerfed banners to make banner builds less mandatory for raids/fractals, which failed since raid squads and most fractal parties still want banners. Is it even good idea trying to remove banners from meta as banners were designed to provide bonus stats? What would be their use otherwise? Why not make proper support banner build instead, that would have less damage and better group buffs? Tactics rework is a great way to achieve that.

The key points of Tactics rework are (keeping also other game modes in mind):

1. improved banners - range, stat bonuses, pulsing boons (e.g. regeneration on all banners OR each banner would pulse designated boon in set interval), ability to pick up banners at distance (e.g. 1-2 second channeling to remove banner that is far to get 60 seconds back), etc
2. improved shouts when traited (10 targets)
3. improve/merge/swap less used and underwhelming traits and add new ones if needed (e.g. moving longbow trait Burning Arrows to Arms traitline)

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Well first of all, don't nerf power damage in PvE.

Second of all the banner trait is in Discipline not Tactics.

Third: Banners DID offer higher stats while traited and pulsed Regen for everyone. Guess what they nerfed?

I agree that their banner rework was awful. It made the only viable warrior support worse. I would rather they bring the bundles back and rework the bundles to be proper support roles that pulsed stats and boon in an aoe centered on the warrior. These would have to be like an Engi's kits where they could not be dropped.

For instance the strength banner could have an aoe effect that makes allies burn on their next attack, another that makes grants 10-15 stacks of might, ect.Precision banner would grant AoE of Fury,Tactics banner for instance could have an aoe heal in it, aoe regen etc.Defense could have an aoe prot, and aoe aegis, and an aoe stab.Each of them should have attacks built into the bundles. Basically turn them into the equivalent of Engi kits, but support oriented based on the banner type.

LB AA burning should be baseline. Make the trait do increased burning damage instead while wielding a LB and reduce LB CDs.I agree on traited shouts being 10 targets.

[cryorion.9532]

@Lan Deathrider.5910There is only one banner trait, Doubled Standards trait, which is in Discipline, but it only improves banner effects for you. Tactics traitline rework is meant to be support oriented, reducing banner build damage output (by taking this traitline instead of Strength/Disicpline) and improving its support capabilities. There would be no nerf to damage directly. Just different banner build would be optimal for group.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@cryorion.9532 said:@Lan Deathrider.5910There is only one banner trait, Doubled Standards trait, which is in Discipline, but it only improves banner effects for you. Tactics traitline rework is meant to be support oriented, reducing banner build damage output (by taking this traitline instead of Strength/Disicpline) and improving its support capabilities. There would be no nerf to damage directly. Just different banner build would be optimal for group.

That was not clear from your posting. If that is what your intent is. Move Double Standards to Tactics and rework Banners entirely.Honestly a complete and utter banner rework is in order since their 'update' to them.

[Opopanax.1803]

Agree with Lan. I thought they were going to improve banners, not make them worse. They need a full rework.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

I was thinking of what updated banner 'kits' would be. I honestly think they should become kits with their own weapon bars, but only for the warrior that summoned them gets them. I think either you would still need skill 5 to plant the banner while you did you DEEPS rotation, but if the bundle was good enough it could also allow the warrior to do a very solid support rotation, or for you to be unable to plant the banner so as you only got to have one banner effect up at a time albeit with a great support bar.

[Red Haired Savage.5430]

I think kits would have been the way to go too.

[Opopanax.1803]

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:I was thinking of what updated banner 'kits' would be. I honestly think they should become kits with their own weapon bars, but only for the warrior that summoned them gets them. I think either you would still need skill 5 to plant the banner while you did you DEEPS rotation, but if the bundle was good enough it could also allow the warrior to do a very solid support rotation, or for you to be unable to plant the banner so as you only got to have one banner effect up at a time albeit with a great support bar.

I think kits have been a problem for engineer because they have such good akills, having multiple kits used to be mandatory for most engineer builds, invalidating lots of other abilities.

I don't know what the answer is for banners, but the move to what they are now is worse than it was.

[Katary.7096]

@"cryorion.9532" said:ANet is doing the same mistake they did in the past, buffing damages, just to nerf them in 6-12 months. As banner Berserker damages are so high now again, almost rivaling damages of condi banner Berserker in the past, that was nerfed, I can see all the nerfs in the future already. Banner Berserker builds are almost identical to DPS Berserker builds. Damage difference between banner Berserker and DPS Berserker is relatively small. The biggest issue is that currently there is no way to nerf only banner Berserker damage without also nerfing DPS Berserker damage at the same time.

In order to reduce damages of banner builds without nerfing Berserker dps builds overall, there are 2 options:

1. nerf primal burst skill damages and buff utility skill damages to the point where all 3 utility slots are crucial for maximal damage output - this way, bannerslave won't be able to deal similar damages as dps builds and also splitting banners between 2 berserkers wouldn't be that appealing - this change would have to be PvE only for obvious reasons
2. rework Tactics traitline and make it appealing to use for every banner/support build - this way dps builds will remaing unaffected (not taking into account buffs from reworked Tactics) and banner builds would have their damages reduced significantly due to either no Strength or Discipline traitline

Option 2 would be better due to making banner builds more support oriented, rather than just nerfing its damages.From the previous balance patches, ANet nerfed banners to make banner builds less mandatory for raids/fractals, which failed since raid squads and most fractal parties still want banners. Is it even good idea trying to remove banners from meta as banners were designed to provide bonus stats? What would be their use otherwise? Why not make proper support banner build instead, that would have less damage and better group buffs? Tactics rework is a great way to achieve that.

The key points of Tactics rework are (keeping also other game modes in mind):

1. improved banners - range, stat bonuses, pulsing boons (e.g. regeneration on all banners OR each banner would pulse designated boon in set interval), ability to pick up banners at distance (e.g. 1-2 second channeling to remove banner that is far to get 60 seconds back), etc
2. improved shouts when traited (10 targets)
3. improve/merge/swap less used and underwhelming traits and add new ones if needed (e.g. moving longbow trait Burning Arrows to Arms traitline)

The "banner vs DPS Problem" could be solved with relatively small effort: Delete "Empowered" and move "Doubled Standards" into the empty slot. New effect: "Your unique Banner effects are 100% stronger. "Then fill the now vacant slot in Discipline with a trait that is valuable for both power and condition DPS builds, for example: "Gain X% increased power and condition damage for Y seconds after you swap weapons. [Combat Only]" Admittedly a pretty boring effect, but it should illustrate the idea. Does not require overhauling entire specializations, keeps traits thematically consistent with where they are placed and leads to a notable gap in the DPS of Banner and pure DPS Warrior builds.

I can see why you would want "Burning Arrows" to move to Arms, but the selection of major traits is already offering a good condition damage trait in each tier, so where should it go? Then again, it is one of the old weapon traits so maybe they will do something new with it in the near future.

[DoRi Silvia.4159]

Maybe I am of the minority but I really like the berserker as it is now, I still make the top 3 on dps list as a dps berserker in metas.The class really does feel like a 'berserker' right nowIf anything I would just ask for a change in maybe the sound and motion of swings to change it up a bit and keep it interesting

[cryorion.9532]

@DoRi Silvia.4159Your position on dps list at metas shouldn't be indicator whether DPS Berserker is good or not compared to other dpses. That is just too situational.Difference between banner and dps Berserker builds is relatively small for what banner builds provide to group. Basically, banner builds have 3k less average dps than DPS builds but provide 100 power, condition damage, precision and ferocity to 10 people including yourself.Now, I am not saying that I don't like this, it feels good to have nice dps and also provide banners. But in the future, how long do you think this will last before ANet decides to nerf it? And the point of this thread is to discuss how to adjust banner builds without nerfing DPS builds at the same time since they are almost identical.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@cryorion.9532 You are assuming that adjusting banners would necessitate nerfing DPS.Honestly banners as kits is the way to go. Make the BS use a banner bar to provide support, increase the stats it gives out to 150, allow Double Standards to give double that to the warrior that traits it. This would create a better defined support role for the warrior that is disconnected from the DPS build, and would help the DPS warrior builds get a wee bit more powerful.

By Kits I mean an actual kit as defined in the game and not a bundle that they used to be. So only one banner out at a time, stats given out in a radius around the warrior. I'm still mulling over what the kit skills would be like while providing support otherwise I'd post something.

[cryorion.9532]

@"Lan Deathrider.5910" ANet stated in the previous patch notes "We considered enhancing the banner skills, but we don't want banners to be alternate weapons that take away from a player's normal weapons", so I don't think it is very realistic to see banner kits in the future (even though it could be interesting and possible solution).Alternative way to differentiate banner and dps builds (without nerfing anything) is to "force" banner builds to take Tactics for apealing buffs/bonuses the traitline would have after its rework. If someone thinks that it would make banner warrior even more mandatory everywhere, banner warriors are still wanted and prefered in most squads/parties, so...As I said before, I don't mind current damages, it feels good, fun and enjoyable. But in the long term, from past experience, ANet almost always nerfed what was performing well.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@cryorion.9532 Which was an unfortunate mistake on their part.

But to your commentary.

Combine Leg Spec into Opportunist in Arms. Move the Double Standards to the slot Leg Spec was in.Discipline: Add a trait that grants extra ferocity when you have sprint (150? Making up for losing 100 power and 100 ferocity.). That way Discipline gets something to replace losing the extra dps from Double Standards, and Tactics becomes the pure support tree.