Acheron.1580

New system, using old mechanics removed from existing legendary runes. Asking for Legendary Relics to be available on release would still be working towards that goal, rather than asking for a free handout. I swear people who are putting forward "new ideas" in this post haven't read a kitten thing and are just blurting out whatever comes to mind because they read "relic" in the title and skipped to the end to add their 2 cents. If relics had been their own thing entirely it never would have even been a discussion.

Textbook false equivalency argument, good job.

The argument that Scholar runes will devalue doesn't fall apart though. Assuming Scholar didn't have the ferocity then yes I 100% agree that people would use ogre instead because 1% less damage but without conditions are great. But when those 2 runes both lose their 6 piece and ogre gets stats of its own, scholar will absolutely go down in value. Currently Scholar technically has 2 6 piece bonuses with the bonus stats and the bonus strike damage, and losing one of them is going to affect the desirability of it. There are also so so so many junk bloat runes in the game that I doubt they will ever revisit (that's a lot of work which is why I think they are just leaving them all in), and it's not like those are going to increase in value with the changes. Overall we should see a decrease in value for the most expensive runes and probably a slight uptick of side-grade rune value on the tp. As for the condi damage runes, they probably won't change drastically unless nightmare runes get some love, like ditching the fear duration for something that benefits all condi users. If that became more condition duration or damage I think we'd be seeing that become more meta again (which can't increase in value because it can't be traded, but would cause all of the other condition damage options runes to go down). Honestly, rather than delay the release of the relic system just 180 the choice to remove the 6 piece bonuses. Make relics all about utility, don't give them the current rune 6 pieces. Make it actually its own thing. That is the straight up easiest solution, you wouldn't need to deal with this legendary rune compensation garbage, it wouldn't affect anyone at launch, just give it non-damage options that help players find a bit more survivability or boon granting or whatever that fits their playstyle.

I mean it's low hanging troll posting, clearly meant to rile people up by, I don't know, making light of other people being frustrated with the way Anet has handled relics and legendary runes? I assume it was funnier in their head.

With the title of the thread "If someone have Legendary runes, they didn't buy Soto". It clearly referred to legendary runes. Again your answer isn't wrong. It just wasn't the question the person posting it was asking.

I don't like slippery slope arguments, I genuinely think they were told to come up with new mechanics, and just completely forgot about legendary runes in the process, which is saying something else that isn't terribly positive. That being said, I don't disagree that if it can happen here, that it might happen somewhere else too. Maybe not so extreme as pulling stats from X and making up new things just to create vertical progression (something GW2 was supposed to pride itself on avoiding), but they've demonstrated for over a year with their balance updates and now this that they don't really consider player feedback, and this will probably go live and they will just hope it blows over by the time their next "expansion" is ready to be rolled sold. Realistically the relics could have been a new thing by themselves entirely and the devs just overstepped without considering how it would impact the game as a whole. As a company it does create a rift of trust between the developers and the players (particularly when dev chatter outside the forums pops up that demonstrates their motivations for specific changes).

Sure, let's talk about that too. If you want the LEGENDARY RELIC which is the point of THIS DISCUSSION, you will most certainly need the expansion because it will include expansion relics in it. Which means that you have to also spend real money in order to get back what you lost. Again you don't even know what the discussion is about. Which, for the record, is they are taking an already existing mechanic (one that has been part of the game since the beginning), separating into 2 parts with no inherent reason, then making the players buy it back, both in requiring spending real money and in game currencies and also resulting in the runes themselves having less value. It has virtually nothing to do with the cost of relics at all, and everything to do with the decrease in value from what people have already spent making, and hiding behind a real money paywall.

I'm pretty sure they already did, since the post he made that was insulting people isn't in the thread anymore.

I bought the ultimate for PoF because hot kitten that expansion had it all and everything about it was pure hype. When it came to EoD I bought the base because none of the "gifts" added per tier felt that special (I still use my invitation to Lily of the Elon), and just skins weren't enough to peak my interest. I feel like announcing the expansion right when they released that balance patch is what killed all interest for me, I'm still a little bitter about the class changes in general so that was a big reason for me personally not to support it. Even if that hadn't been the case, I can't imagine paying full price for an expansion that isn't even finished and is going to be released piecemeal over the next year and a half. I understand and agree with the decision to do away with living seasons because they always became a hot discussion about the price vs people who got it for free, but treating an expansion AS a living season you pay for wasn't the right direction.

I assume this is a joke? That's no small chunk of change, and most reasonable people would simply wait to find out what the compensation is to begin with before doing something so extreme. Also in their initial discussion it said up to 7 so...

This isn't wrong, but what they are asking is since there are also relics only tied to the expansion, is being able to get the legendary relic itself also tied to owning the expansion. To which we don't really know because they haven't said, but the answer is most likely yes because if they have achievements tied to it like Aurora and Vision they will most likely be locked behind expansion activities.

Again, nobody is saying "They are taking runes away and selling them back to us". NOBODY. You arguments are so flawed, or your reading comprehension is. They are taking the piece of runes away that add value to the rune. Let me show you what that means. Rune of Infiltration adds 175 power, 100 precision. Total cost to buy ~12 silver Rune of Chronomancer adds 175 power, 100 precision. Total cost to buy 2 gold and 70 silver Rune of the Scholar adds 175 power, 125 Ferocity. Total cost to buy 4 gold 10 silver (technically 250 Ferocity but I'll get to that) Rune of the Deadeye adds 175 power, 125 Ferocity. Total cost to buy 1 gold 20 silver These are all the runes with only their 5 stats before the 6 piece bonus. Assuming that they all get some stat bonus similar to Scholar (125 in precision, or ferocity), would you rather pay the 12 silver or the 2.7 gold? Would you rather spend the 4 gold or the 1.2 gold? That's what people mean by devalued runes. To FURTHER explain the problem with the system, Rune of the scholar will be losing a 6 piece, but already has a stat gain so is basically just losing. Period, where as deadeye will be gaining a stat. So Scholar HAS to go down in value. Chronomancer HAS to go down in value. If you can see that you can understand that separating the 6 piece bonus DEVALUES the rune, because why would you spend more gold on something that gives the same or side-grade stats? One of the big reasons Scholar was dominant was because it technically had 2 6 piece bonuses, being extra stats AND a strike damage bonus under conditions. The other problem comes from condition damage runes, which honestly had pretty weak 6 piece bonuses to begin with. In a way, Power dps is getting a nerf (cause they lose their double rune effect from scholar), and condition damage is going to gain a buff (because the 6 piece wasn't a big deal but now they get to choose a complimentary one with the relic system). There's no way it can treat all runes equally, without nerfing all of them across the board (which will - that's right - devalue the runes). I doubt they will go that route anyways because of the backlash the system has already caused. The functionality of the original runes ultimately remains in the game, at no additional cost to the player aside from maybe one gold for a relic. If we assume that core relics retain the name of the runes they were taken from, nothing is stopping you from simply combining scholar runes with a scholar relic, nightmare runes with a nightmare relic, etc. No expansion needed for those. The actual thing that is sold are additional relics that weren't in the game before. Yes, let's assume that there is a scholar relic to go with my scholar runes. Guess what, that's exactly what everyone is talking about, you figured it out. They REMOVED the effect that scholar had and then said here it is, go buy it back with our new system. That is 100% the entire discussion. You even mention as much TWICE in your own argument.

Let me put it in a different light. If they hadn't changed runes and had instead just added Relics (which rather than having say dps increases had utility opportunities like what they have demonstrated), it would have had 100% support behind it. People would have been hyped to build an overpriced legendary relic for it just because, I would have. I wouldn't have cared if it released with a legendary relic either. It wouldn't have had an impact on damage escalation but could have provided personal touches to playstyle that could have been awesome. Instead it's a rehashed mechanic that was stripped from players, to sell back to them, at an undetermined date with an undetermined cost and everything about reimbursement is vague a hell.

For someone talking about people being overly dramatic, I don't think I've ever seen anyone say that during any of the discussions about runes and relics. Also when you start a "discussion" when insults against the people you aren't in agreement with, it makes your argument look cheap, which tracks because I don't think you really understand the issues people have with it at all. It DOES indeed devalue runes across the board, not just legendary runes, so by extension yes it devalues those too. There's no analogy I can give to make it simpler than if you remove something that people used to get for free and then try to resell it back to them, there is a change in value. If you look at the difference in prices between runes with the exact same stat setup but different 6 pieces, you'd see that a lot of the perceived value of those runes was on that 6 piece. That's something really easy to verify. Lastly, relics are fine. Nobody is really upset about them I don't think, but after hearing that they are just keeping all runes in the game, even the redundant, useless ones, and just stripping the rune 6 piece I can't even defend the idea that it involves build diversity improvements. The meta runes will continue to be the meta runes, which means everything else will still be niche or ignored. Best case scenario I can see scholar maybe having a side-grade, but for condi damage? Unlikely. I thought the system would try to make runes more diverse and relevant but they don't, so I can't understand the direction. Basically it's not even new content, it's just a new way to acquire old content that used to be part of a system that hadn't changed since the beginning of the game, and is now being separated and sold back. Will it open up better things in the future? Probably. Will it have bloat because everything defaults to a meta? Absolutely. It doesn't fix anything, it's just another dragon to chase to pad out the expansion. People have a right to be frustrated with it. Are some people over-reacting? Sure, but this is feeling like a lot like blind white knighting. Edit: And honestly, saying you have 7 legendary runes means nothing cause I don't think anyone cares to even try to verify that. It's just another example of straw manning because again I don't see people saying if you don't have legendary runes you aren't allowed to have an opinion.

I hate to tell you, but you could post on the forums without wasting gold on legendary runes. Oops.

These weapon choices are odd, I don't disagree with that, but it's so ridiculous to claim that these are bad design choices when you haven't even seen what they are just because they don't fit your idea of fantasy identity for those classes. That's not objective, it's subjective. They also aren't "core weapons", since you'll only have them with the purchase of the expansion, and at that point since any spec on that class can use any weapon after weapon master training you can argue everything is just core, the only thing that changes are your starting options. I don't see the homogenization in this respect that you are worried about because as pointed out weapons can function (and do) differently between classes, even if the basic starting point of the weapon is the same. I'd say pistols are just fundamentally point and bang weapons but that doesn't mean elementalist couldn't be surprisingly different. I think the core problem people have with these reveals compared to previous ones is that to date a weapon was released with an e-spec and so your brain tried to tie in the weapon to the spec. Without that e-spec it's just a weapon and you are treating it like it's just an added baseline weapon because you can't picture it with a new theme. Not to say people haven't been disappointed with weapon reveals before too but this one seems particularly salty to me. So once again, until anything is actually released at all, it's not "objectively bad" just because you don't agree with it, and it's kind of sulky to say it doesn't meet your standards when the only standard you seem to be upset about is it wasn't what YOU wanted because it didn't fulfill your fanfic. If it matters that much to you, don't support them and don't buy the expansion, that simple.

As already pointed out, there are outliers for weapons. Revenant hammer is nothing like other hammer specs. Staff is usually a support weapon but is pure dps for Daredevil. Axes are a mix of ranged and melee. Scepter is usually condition damage except it isn't on guardian. I don't think there is going to be a universal weapon that people will completely agree they want per class. If it was up to me on ranger I'd take a scepter for more ranged options ANY day over the rifle, but I'm not going to say people wanting the rifle are wrong. Do I think we could use more focus options? Absolutely, there hasn't been a focus weapon introduced since base game. Longbow could use some serious love, it has the fewest available classes to use it and even then I don't even know if warrior or dragon hunter even bother. Warhorn isn't a bad choice either for diversity. All that being said, it doesn't matter what the community wants. Anet has been going their own direction without feedback from the players for a long while now, and we are just along for the ride. We can only hope that the concepts they come up for the weapons are interesting, but until we have any idea what those ideas it's pretty ridiculous to call them bad.

It's gonna be one of those shorts and T-shirts copy pasted outfits and if you zoom in it'll say "I made 6 legendary runes and all I got was this t-shirt"

On the plus side, assuming you buy the expansion, you will have the ability, NAY, the ~ p r i v i l e g e ~ to be able to interact with their new relic crafting so you can get back what they removed for several months.

I don't think it was about pitfalls that players make by mismatching runes, it was that there are a lot of runes that are not used at all because the meta dictates which ones are useful, and it mostly revolves around the 6 piece bonus. Going forward you will still have meta runes, and you will definitely have meta relics too, but I feel like the goal was a really flawed attempt at trying to make things less rigid by opening up options. Ironically it follows on the same problems they had with the balance patch where spreadsheets don't make for engaging game play. You'll probably still see scholar as the go to dps rune, but now you will have to find a new relic that is going to be meta. It's just extra steps and more crafting that leads to the same end point. AKA: Bloat for the sake of increasing perceived value, because this expansion is looking pretty thin. Whether they are spreading everything out over a long period to give the illusion of more content or they simply don't have the staff on hand to finish it before it's released, it leaves a bad taste.

Since druid hammer when used on non-untamed builds allow you to choose its "state", can thief have something similar for their weapon slot 3 and the ability to choose between the dual wield attack and the main hand attack? I know that that will be rather niche but honestly if you aren't going to ever fix p/p I'd at least like to have more build options by using the single pistol build for example, without nerfing the hell out of my stats by not equipping a second weapon. Edit: Obviously they would need damage / utility tweaks because they have all been designed to never be used (because why would you handicap your stats like that), but if they've put the effort into making them, including the animations, I don't see why they shouldn't just make them more interesting and allow people to utilize them. It's really odd from a design standpoint to have something in the game that isn't ever meant to be used.

It's hard to tell what will be useful because we have so little information on what they consider to be replaceable stats. What I'd like to see is stats that are basically comparable with changing up food items or infusions. As an example: Rune of the Scholar: Ferocity Rune of the Deadeye: Precision Precision and ferocity are fairly interchangable depending on class and build, and can easily be supplemented with food buffs or infusions. Maybe your class needs just a bit more precision for cap and this allows for more power infusions instead of precision infusions. There are runes that seemingly have multiple 6 piece bonuses already that might drop in value if they axe one of the bonuses, such as: Rune of divinity (arguably 10% health AND bonus stats could be 2 separate bonuses) Rune of the traveler (condi damage and movement speed which the devs said would be a 6 piece to replace some runes) Rune of thorns (condi damage and poison duration) Rune of balthazar (condi duration and max health) I get the feeling the first week of relics rolling out are going to see some pretty fluctuated runes costs, until then we have no idea what to expect for meta runes. I don't think Nightmare (or specific condi runes) are going to change, I don't think Scholar will be upended easily either. Support runes might change a bit, depends what happens to Monk. If 10% outgoing healing effectiveness stays, does it compare to 125 healing power? It's something that would need testing, maybe it will be replaced by water or altruism / rebirth. It feels to me support and Condi are going to have a lot better options, most of their 6 piece bonuses were pretty lame to begin with, so relics will probably see them do more. (If they detach the 10% more health from balthazar though I suspect we will have a lot more squish firebrands).

Runes are 100% losing their 6th piece across the board, of course it will affect the old runes too because otherwise people would stack old runes + relics. So yes you lose the 6 piece but get varying stat bonuses to replace it. You also get 3 relics per toon level 60 or above, not 1. In general 3 relics per class should roughly cover your most used specs while you craft whatever you need to to finish it off. Where your math gets weird is that the bigger problem isn't the number of characters you have, but the number of spec slots per character you have, since it'll treat a character with the base 2 equipment slots the same as someone with 8 equipment slots. If you have 100 rune sets across 50 characters but they all only have the 2 equipment / build loadouts, it isn't as big an impact as say someone having 100 rune sets across 25 characters who bought multiple equipment / build loadouts. In this specific case I think Legendary Runes aren't the feature talking point, everything about that has been pretty significantly covered in the main thread and doesn't have much to do with which runes will become more popular.

I got my achievements done and don't fish at all now. It isn't a bad way to pass time if you are waiting for a meta, or looking for raiding queues, but in general if you aren't doing it for ambergris there really isn't a point to fishing. Any time spent fishing is time not doing anything else in the game, and by itself it isn't a fun enough addition to want to do. Also because of the whole skiff / fishing stacks interaction, the only viable fishing spot when everything is done is end of dragons fishing since it requires the least amount of fishing power and there's no reason to make it harder for yourself.

There isn't exactly valuable fish in open waters. The legendary fish which gives ambergris is always tied to specific pools with specific bait, so open water fishing just anywhere isn't exactly profitable, and the fish you get from open waters yields the least reward.